NYG have just landed their best TE since Martellus Bennett.
Bellinger is better than Bennett.
Where'd you buy your rose-colored glasses?
I never liked Bennett. Always thought he was overrated by BBI. And it didn't surprise me that he was "one and done" with the Giants in his ten year career that spanned five teams. Eli was not sorry to see him go.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Good trade. Some things to be concerned over:
Well your initial post was related to his age. As usual this offseason. You’re way too obsessed with age. Not every player on the team has to be 25 and under…
Obsessed with age because he's stating a fact? It's something to take into consideration. He's not young anymore, and I think he has the highest per year contract for a TE. You also have to consider his injury history. This is a good deal with plenty of upside for the Giants, but IMO this isn't a slam dunk home run type deal.
thinking, this staff is willing to try things. Should be relatively low risk for us, not sure his cap/salary but Oak eats any bonus amort, and it's only a 3rd (and the later 3rd). Still leaves us good draft capital and provides a receiving threat, on par or better than basically any FA WR.
I'm sure we still draft a WR low, but arguably we don't NEED to in rd1 now. Good job filling holes - let's see what's coming for C/S - not expecting big names/$, but solid lower price guys (which could mean Love, maybe Feliciano coming back and drafting a C, or S).
I don't think this impacts Bellinger much. I think the Giants just run a bunch of 12 personnel.
Yeah, he's playing a different position. You're not paying Waller to block and we don't have Jason Garrett here anymore square pegging personnel. This will be a heavy 12 offense but that doesn't mean we're playing smashmouth. The Chiefs pivoted to a pass-forward 12 and 13 offense this past season after moving on from Tyreek.
YoY I think you're right about Hill. But Reid's had years where he was in 12 30% of the time. It's a staple he's utilized when he's had the talent.
Not even close to the takent TG was. He was one of the best ever and an incredible ATHLETE
Well your initial post was related to his age. As usual this offseason. You’re way too obsessed with age. Not every player on the team has to be 25 and under…
Sure, ideally, I always want to build with young talent. Not always possible, I know..My concern was more about giving up a 3rd for a guy who was soon to be 31 and coming off injuries (albeit and thankfully not serious ones), than age per se. But as I said a few times on here, I trust Schoen
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
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27m
Giants trading Kadarius Toney for Darren Waller and a sixth round pick has a different feel, doesn't it? Link - ( New Window )
I think that's a reference to the 6th we already got, in the Toney trade.
for an OC that can perhaps use him like the Chiefs use Kelce. Kafka will be able to get him open and the ball in space. All he needs is to stay healthy and he's gonna get 100+ targets this year.
NYG have just landed their best TE since Martellus Bennett.
Bellinger is better than Bennett.
Where'd you buy your rose-colored glasses?
I never liked Bennett. Always thought he was overrated by BBI. And it didn't surprise me that he was "one and done" with the Giants in his ten year career that spanned five teams. Eli was not sorry to see him go.
Overrated by BBI? Sure. A lot of fanatics on this site who overrate our 3rd string left guard. That's what we're here for. You don't like Bennett, that's fine. But you can't say Daniel Bellinger is better than him, especially if you compare the 1 year team totals against each other.
RE: Art Stapleton says we're also getting a 6th round pick:
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
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27m
Giants trading Kadarius Toney for Darren Waller and a sixth round pick has a different feel, doesn't it? Link - ( New Window )
got the sixth when they traded Toney away. Stapleton is just putting both together. After the draft they’ll say giants traded Toney and it turned into Waller and (player drafted in the 6th)
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
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27m
Giants trading Kadarius Toney for Darren Waller and a sixth round pick has a different feel, doesn't it? Link - ( New Window )
got the sixth when they traded Toney away. Stapleton is just putting both together. After the draft they’ll say giants traded Toney and it turned into Waller and (player drafted in the 6th)
taking a TE in draft in Rds 1-5 for future development, but probably kills off any trade for a WR and puts Dalton Schultz possibility to bed.
I disagree with folks who think this doesn't necessitate a WR add in draft still, if anything I think it heightens likelihood they will draft perhaps both WR/TE.
Injury history a concern but for a late third I like the risk. It's a very deep draft in TE so I don't think that would stop them from adding another. They can evaluate him year to year.
They don't need to be a 5k plus pass team and with adding a good WR in the draft and what they have with this addition they can certainly hit 4k plus.
The OL will need to a big step to make this work and I would not be surprised if they look at a IOL early this draft.
RE: RE: This move could indicate if we trade for a WR it will be
Waller is year to year around 11M but that 11M , I don't think can be restructured into a significantly lower cap hit.
Could they not convert salary into bonus and spread it out over the life of the contract?
Yes, if you want the contract to guarantee money after this season, which it does not. He has 4 years left with a base of about $11 mill per, but only $8.25 mill is guaranteed and on this year's contract.
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
·
27m
Giants trading Kadarius Toney for Darren Waller and a sixth round pick has a different feel, doesn't it? Link - ( New Window )
We got a 6th for Toney. Think that's what he means.
I watched lot of Vegas last two seasons and he's in clear physical decline.
That is upsetting if true. He was a great player, he has not been durable the last few years, but I think it is worth the risk. Not as much a slam dunk as others seem to think, but if we can get a productive tight end and play some 12 formation with decent results--this is a win. Time will tell.
Injury history a concern but for a late third I like the risk. It's a very deep draft in TE so I don't think that would stop them from adding another. They can evaluate him year to year.
I agree this does not take us out on TE in this draft, especially on Day 3. It's a position that sometimes takes an entire rookie contract to develop and Waller is probably only here for 3 of those remaining 4 years - I think we're going to restructure the shit a couple of times and dummy his last year. Also, if we're highlighting 12 and 13 they're going to need a guy that could get some looks.
I watched lot of Vegas last two seasons and he's in clear physical decline.
That is upsetting if true. He was a great player, he has not been durable the last few years, but I think it is worth the risk. Not as much a slam dunk as others seem to think, but if we can get a productive tight end and play some 12 formation with decent results--this is a win. Time will tell.
Yup. It's a worthy risk even if just one season, hopefully squeeze two. He has dimensions/skillset that can change an offense as a threat and this way not a ton of pressure on a rookie WR, buys time for Wandale to come back. But he has to stay on the field.
love this move. We now have TIGHT ENDS. 2 TE sets. Jones and Barkley are dual threats. Two TEs that can both catch and block as needed. Two WRs. Good luck stopping a high % passing offense that can rip off chunk plays on the ground with the best of them. It's 30 degrees and windy? No problem.
Waller was dinged up the last 2 seasons but still saw his YPC in 2022 reach a career high with 13.9. He's 30. This is a guy that caught 90 passes in 2019 and 107 in 2020. We got him for very little. Let's fucking go.
..and also the makeup. Hasn't he had some personal issues?
HE's overcome a lot in his life. Not sure the details but he's been a good player and character guy in Oakland. No reason to think he won't be the same locker room leader here. The Raiders loved him.
Feels a lot like the Plaxico acquisition - they are virtually identical in terms of their size. But Waller is faster. Been waiting for a decade for Waller's skill set. Can't believe Raiders let him go for a late third round compensatory pick. Absolute steal by Schoen.
RE: I want to dry hump the two tight end offense and always have
love this move. We now have TIGHT ENDS. 2 TE sets. Jones and Barkley are dual threats. Two TEs that can both catch and block as needed. Two WRs. Good luck stopping a high % passing offense that can rip off chunk plays on the ground with the best of them. It's 30 degrees and windy? No problem.
Waller was dinged up the last 2 seasons but still saw his YPC in 2022 reach a career high with 13.9. He's 30. This is a guy that caught 90 passes in 2019 and 107 in 2020. We got him for very little. Let's fucking go.
Waller - ( New Window )
I am very high on having two TE's as a matchup nightmare on slower LBs and smaller DB's so the Giants are thinking this right.
too much to give up for a 30 year old TE. This is also a strong TE draft. Having said that he is a vertical threat. I do think there will be a lot of 2 TE sets.
Waller is year to year around 11M but that 11M , I don't think can be restructured into a significantly lower cap hit.
Could they not convert salary into bonus and spread it out over the life of the contract?
Yes, if you want the contract to guarantee money after this season, which it does not. He has 4 years left with a base of about $11 mill per, but only $8.25 mill is guaranteed and on this year's contract.
8.25 is guaranteed now but on friday the rest of his 2023 salary(2.75) becomes guaranteed. You can convert his salary to a bonus and drop his cap hit to 3-3.5 mil for this year and create 8.25 in dead money after this year.
..and also the makeup. Hasn't he had some personal issues?
HE's overcome a lot in his life. Not sure the details but he's been a good player and character guy in Oakland. No reason to think he won't be the same locker room leader here. The Raiders loved him.
I believe that.
So why did the Raiders trade him? Was this financial?
..and also the makeup. Hasn't he had some personal issues?
HE's overcome a lot in his life. Not sure the details but he's been a good player and character guy in Oakland. No reason to think he won't be the same locker room leader here. The Raiders loved him.
He struggled with addiction, there’s a Hard Knocks on it. He’s been sober since 2017
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In comment 16063546 LawrenceTaylor56 said:
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NYG have just landed their best TE since Martellus Bennett.
Bellinger is better than Bennett.
Where'd you buy your rose-colored glasses?
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In comment 16063536 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 16063529 The_Boss said:
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He’s 30. Hasn’t played a full season since 2020.
31 in Sept
Jason Whitten is laughing at the age posts. So are some of the other hall of fame TEs
I'm laughing at the "H" you added to his name.
Why are you putting so much emphasis on the H? Cool (h)whip. Jason (H)witten.
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In comment 16063568 Chris in Philly said:
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In comment 16063565 Poktown Pete said:
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Dude missed 8 games last year and 6 the year before. He's 30 years old. One great season 3 years ago. Not getting overly excited.
He had back to back 1000 yard seasons.
With the other one even longer ago. And only 3 TD's that year. Seems like a lot to spend (3rd rounder). Not feeling it.
He's also never had Kafka or Daboll coaching him.
Ain't gonna help if he can't stay on the field.
his contract also seems very easy to convert salary to a signing bonus to free up more space if they need to
and this guy when healthy, which is the key, is a true #1 weapon in the passing game
Well your initial post was related to his age. As usual this offseason. You’re way too obsessed with age. Not every player on the team has to be 25 and under…
Obsessed with age because he's stating a fact? It's something to take into consideration. He's not young anymore, and I think he has the highest per year contract for a TE. You also have to consider his injury history. This is a good deal with plenty of upside for the Giants, but IMO this isn't a slam dunk home run type deal.
I'm sure we still draft a WR low, but arguably we don't NEED to in rd1 now. Good job filling holes - let's see what's coming for C/S - not expecting big names/$, but solid lower price guys (which could mean Love, maybe Feliciano coming back and drafting a C, or S).
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In comment 16063546 LawrenceTaylor56 said:
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Didn't he have injury/concussion issues?
Either way, I don't mind the trade. NYG have just landed their best TE since Martellus Bennett.
That's an insult to Waller.
He's now our best TE since Shockey
No it’s not. Bennett had a heckuva year for us before leaving in FA
55 catches 625 yards and 5 TD's.
That's 2009 Kevin Boss numbers
The flexibility .... red zone weapon ... Nice!!!!
I don't think this impacts Bellinger much. I think the Giants just run a bunch of 12 personnel.
Yeah, he's playing a different position. You're not paying Waller to block and we don't have Jason Garrett here anymore square pegging personnel. This will be a heavy 12 offense but that doesn't mean we're playing smashmouth. The Chiefs pivoted to a pass-forward 12 and 13 offense this past season after moving on from Tyreek.
YoY I think you're right about Hill. But Reid's had years where he was in 12 30% of the time. It's a staple he's utilized when he's had the talent.
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In comment 16063592 DCOrange said:
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604 catches from age 31 to 37. 86 catches a year.
Not even close to the takent TG was. He was one of the best ever and an incredible ATHLETE
Well your initial post was related to his age. As usual this offseason. You’re way too obsessed with age. Not every player on the team has to be 25 and under…
Sure, ideally, I always want to build with young talent. Not always possible, I know..My concern was more about giving up a 3rd for a guy who was soon to be 31 and coming off injuries (albeit and thankfully not serious ones), than age per se. But as I said a few times on here, I trust Schoen
Damn... do I still have that Jerry Reese pictore on my PC?
@art_stapleton
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27m
Giants trading Kadarius Toney for Darren Waller and a sixth round pick has a different feel, doesn't it? Link - ( New Window )
I think that's a reference to the 6th we already got, in the Toney trade.
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In comment 16063608 Milton said:
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In comment 16063546 LawrenceTaylor56 said:
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NYG have just landed their best TE since Martellus Bennett.
Bellinger is better than Bennett.
Where'd you buy your rose-colored glasses?
I never liked Bennett. Always thought he was overrated by BBI. And it didn't surprise me that he was "one and done" with the Giants in his ten year career that spanned five teams. Eli was not sorry to see him go.
Overrated by BBI? Sure. A lot of fanatics on this site who overrate our 3rd string left guard. That's what we're here for. You don't like Bennett, that's fine. But you can't say Daniel Bellinger is better than him, especially if you compare the 1 year team totals against each other.
@art_stapleton
·
27m
Giants trading Kadarius Toney for Darren Waller and a sixth round pick has a different feel, doesn't it? Link - ( New Window )
got the sixth when they traded Toney away. Stapleton is just putting both together. After the draft they’ll say giants traded Toney and it turned into Waller and (player drafted in the 6th)
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In comment 16063557 BigBlue7 said:
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In comment 16063546 LawrenceTaylor56 said:
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Didn't he have injury/concussion issues?
Either way, I don't mind the trade. NYG have just landed their best TE since Martellus Bennett.
That's an insult to Waller.
He's now our best TE since Shockey
No it’s not. Bennett had a heckuva year for us before leaving in FA
55 catches 625 yards and 5 TD's.
That's 2009 Kevin Boss numbers
He had a heckuva year both receiving AND blocking. He was an hellacious blocker
Sorry went over my head
That's okay... have a great day BB56
Nobody thinks Waller has had the career Witten or Gonzalez had. Its merely to say that TEs may have a longer shelf life.
Also, from a sheer talent perspective (again, talent alone, not production), Waller as a receiving tight end is in the argument with anyone.
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Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
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27m
Giants trading Kadarius Toney for Darren Waller and a sixth round pick has a different feel, doesn't it? Link - ( New Window )
got the sixth when they traded Toney away. Stapleton is just putting both together. After the draft they’ll say giants traded Toney and it turned into Waller and (player drafted in the 6th)
Ah ok, thanks.
I disagree with folks who think this doesn't necessitate a WR add in draft still, if anything I think it heightens likelihood they will draft perhaps both WR/TE.
You are not being greedy. Giants know he is a bit of an injury risk and are probably ok since it is essentially a year to year contract.
They almost assuredly are still going to get a vet WR added to the mix.
They don't need to be a 5k plus pass team and with adding a good WR in the draft and what they have with this addition they can certainly hit 4k plus.
The OL will need to a big step to make this work and I would not be surprised if they look at a IOL early this draft.
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a player still on his rookie contract.
Waller is year to year around 11M but that 11M , I don't think can be restructured into a significantly lower cap hit.
Could they not convert salary into bonus and spread it out over the life of the contract?
Yes, if you want the contract to guarantee money after this season, which it does not. He has 4 years left with a base of about $11 mill per, but only $8.25 mill is guaranteed and on this year's contract.
@art_stapleton
·
27m
Giants trading Kadarius Toney for Darren Waller and a sixth round pick has a different feel, doesn't it? Link - ( New Window )
We got a 6th for Toney. Think that's what he means.
OTC also has another chart following cash flow that he is only due 5.4 this year. Not sure what that means.
That is upsetting if true. He was a great player, he has not been durable the last few years, but I think it is worth the risk. Not as much a slam dunk as others seem to think, but if we can get a productive tight end and play some 12 formation with decent results--this is a win. Time will tell.
I agree this does not take us out on TE in this draft, especially on Day 3. It's a position that sometimes takes an entire rookie contract to develop and Waller is probably only here for 3 of those remaining 4 years - I think we're going to restructure the shit a couple of times and dummy his last year. Also, if we're highlighting 12 and 13 they're going to need a guy that could get some looks.
It feels a lot like 2005.
They sure are. It's all over social media. They must really like this guy...like alot.
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I watched lot of Vegas last two seasons and he's in clear physical decline.
That is upsetting if true. He was a great player, he has not been durable the last few years, but I think it is worth the risk. Not as much a slam dunk as others seem to think, but if we can get a productive tight end and play some 12 formation with decent results--this is a win. Time will tell.
Yup. It's a worthy risk even if just one season, hopefully squeeze two. He has dimensions/skillset that can change an offense as a threat and this way not a ton of pressure on a rookie WR, buys time for Wandale to come back. But he has to stay on the field.
Two TE sets with Bellinger have some appeal.
Waller was dinged up the last 2 seasons but still saw his YPC in 2022 reach a career high with 13.9. He's 30. This is a guy that caught 90 passes in 2019 and 107 in 2020. We got him for very little. Let's fucking go.
Waller - ( New Window )
HE's overcome a lot in his life. Not sure the details but he's been a good player and character guy in Oakland. No reason to think he won't be the same locker room leader here. The Raiders loved him.
Waller was dinged up the last 2 seasons but still saw his YPC in 2022 reach a career high with 13.9. He's 30. This is a guy that caught 90 passes in 2019 and 107 in 2020. We got him for very little. Let's fucking go.
Waller - ( New Window )
I am very high on having two TE's as a matchup nightmare on slower LBs and smaller DB's so the Giants are thinking this right.
@SharpFootball
Daniel Jones on early down attempts
from 12 personnel:
+0.30 EPA/att (#7)
9.3 YPA (#4)
53% success (#12)
85% comp (#3) on 48 att
from 11 personnel:
+0.06 EPA/att (#15)
6.9 YPA (#20)
46% success (#23)
69% comp (#10) on 295 att
Darren Waller allows Daboll/Kafka to use more 12
https://twitter.com/SharpFootball/status/1635718081916829699 - ( New Window )
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In comment 16063619 CornerStone246+17 said:
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a player still on his rookie contract.
Waller is year to year around 11M but that 11M , I don't think can be restructured into a significantly lower cap hit.
Could they not convert salary into bonus and spread it out over the life of the contract?
Yes, if you want the contract to guarantee money after this season, which it does not. He has 4 years left with a base of about $11 mill per, but only $8.25 mill is guaranteed and on this year's contract.
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..and also the makeup. Hasn't he had some personal issues?
HE's overcome a lot in his life. Not sure the details but he's been a good player and character guy in Oakland. No reason to think he won't be the same locker room leader here. The Raiders loved him.
I believe that.
So why did the Raiders trade him? Was this financial?
Hah! Force multiplier. How dare you steal BW's schtick!!
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..and also the makeup. Hasn't he had some personal issues?
HE's overcome a lot in his life. Not sure the details but he's been a good player and character guy in Oakland. No reason to think he won't be the same locker room leader here. The Raiders loved him.
He struggled with addiction, there’s a Hard Knocks on it. He’s been sober since 2017