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Quickly on O’Cyrus Torrence

Carl in CT : 3/15/2023 1:17 pm
Saw a stat by a draft service and had to make this point. “The kid was the only four year starter which we ever graded that never gave up a sack in four year.” A lot of people are calling to eliminate pressure up the middle. You can’t do more than that. (I know his first three years were not against SEC competition). Just figured he could be a solution.
Whether Jones or his possible successor...  
knowledgetimmons : 3/15/2023 1:19 pm : link
we wont win this division without massive trench support. I'm all for BPA on the lines in Rd1.
I wouldn't count him out  
mavric : 3/15/2023 1:20 pm : link
as a target of the Giants. Not saying we should, but I know Schoen believes in building the trench first, and it sure would help DJ.
I don't think he'd drop to us in R2  
Giantsfan79 : 3/15/2023 1:23 pm : link
If the brain trust thinks he's the best R1 pick, then welcome aboard
He should be in the mix  
allstarjim : 3/15/2023 1:23 pm : link
At #25, IMO.

The good thing about this draft is that the Giants should get a really strong impact player at their spot, even if the WR and Corner talent is off the board that would represent value. It should mean that other really strong talents are available at 25, like Torrance, perhaps a Lukas Van Ness.

And my other dark horse, who isn't being talked about a lot as a first round value, but ILB Jack Campbell, Van Ness' Iowa teammate.

I posted last week I think that linebacker is risky in the first because of positional value, but the more I watch him, the more I love him. He and Okereke would be really formidable.
He may go mid 1st  
Sammo85 : 3/15/2023 1:29 pm : link
There’s a lot of teams picking in that range suffering even worse than us with interior line play.
im iN  
fish3321 : 3/15/2023 1:29 pm : link
fixing the o-line (And SB being healthy) was the biggest reason for our turn around last year
I think he’s going to go before us  
Rudy5757 : 3/15/2023 1:33 pm : link
Drafting at 25 is different than the top 10. The money is so much less at 25 so positional value is not as big of an issue. In the 20s is a good place for a guard.
He  
AcidTest : 3/15/2023 1:34 pm : link
should absolutely be considered at #25. Thomas is our only proven OL IMO. Everyone else is unproven or a journeyman. Quantity is not quality. There will also still be some good LBs, CBs, and WRs on days two and three. And we could still sign one or more before the draft.
....  
CoughlinHandsonHips : 3/15/2023 1:37 pm : link
I'd consider him #1 for sure, along with Luke Wypler or Joe Tippman at #2 :)
Positional value...  
Brown_Hornet : 3/15/2023 1:37 pm : link
...is still important because of the amount of money that a 1st rd talent would cost in FA or a trade.

RD1 also includes an extra year of protection.
RE: Positional value...  
Semipro Lineman : 3/15/2023 1:46 pm : link
In comment 16065281 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
...is still important because of the amount of money that a 1st rd talent would cost in FA or a trade.

RD1 also includes an extra year of protection.


If he comes in and neutralizes the interior of the other NFC East defensive lines then he is worth it but I understand the reasoning of using the pick on someone at a more expensive in free agency position. But not if Torrence is clearly the better prospect.
I hope he is. In mix....still. go BPA..  
George from PA : 3/15/2023 1:49 pm : link
An all pro guard is better than an OK WR or corner.


But I suspect an All pro WR or Corner is better than all pro guard.

Must go with BPA.....positional value is a secondary consideration
I'd bet he's gone before the Giants pick in the 1st rd  
GFAN52 : 3/15/2023 1:51 pm : link
.
He won't make it  
Festina Lente : 3/15/2023 1:51 pm : link
To us if i had to bet
If its the best value  
Lines of Scrimmage : 3/15/2023 1:53 pm : link
I am for it. Needs to be a day 1 starter that looks like he belongs.

WR were a issue but a lot of the issues were rooted in the OL against the better fronts. Couldn't run and it exposed the PB'ing issues. Neal was a big part of this as well.

A WR can help with this but so can being able to consistently get 4-5 yards on a earlier down in the run game.

Once teams have to greatly respect the run game the offense can take off. It's pick your poison time.
I doubt  
Joe Beckwith : 3/15/2023 2:01 pm : link
he makes it to 25, or even 20, and he won’t make it to 57.
I would bet he will be high up  
Dave on the UWS : 3/15/2023 2:04 pm : link
their draft board. If he's there at 25 a distinct possibility.
If he is there  
Chip : 3/15/2023 2:11 pm : link
You turn your card in. We need an upgrade in the middle of the line and he would be a perfect fit. His grade is all over from early teens to early 2nd. I would take him over Zay Flowers.
Let’s hope he is in the mix.  
prdave73 : 3/15/2023 2:14 pm : link
This would be a good start to the draft. Giants need to build on the Oline.
Think he goes before 20  
bc4life : 3/15/2023 2:16 pm : link
possibly before 15
I would love a great center  
Archer : 3/15/2023 2:27 pm : link
Most really good teams have really good to great centers.

Look at Philadelphia and KC. They have Kelse, and Humphrey played great last year for the Chiefs.

Typically a good center calls the line pick ups, helps the other linemen, helps to control the A-B gaps, can be a lead blocker.

If you watch Kelse he makes the entire line better
...  
ryanmkeane : 3/15/2023 2:29 pm : link
would love it along with WR in round 2
where we need to be  
Colin@gbn : 3/15/2023 2:36 pm : link
I'll only say this once and the ride off into the sunset, but you guys really need to get out of the 1980s. Its the 2020s. The NFL is a passing league. KC hasn't been the dominant team in the league the past few years because they're great in the trenches; they're there because they have the best QB in the league throwing to a track team of receivers. Cincinnati isn't challenging KC for that trouble because of their OL (hint its actually worse than the Giants!) They lucked into a great young QB and went out and got him one of the receivers in the game. Same story with the Bills (who do have a very good defence) but their offence only started cooking when they went out and got Diggs. And the Eagles took off this year thanks to a high-powered offense featuring a couple of 1,000 yard receivers as well as a downright scary pass rush.

So how do the Giants compete with those guys. Hmmm, I know, I know!! ... we gotta fix the offensive line.
I'd be thrilled if he's the pick  
arniefez : 3/15/2023 2:40 pm : link
put him next Neal and coach them up.
Very unlikely he will be there at 25  
gidiefor : Mod : 3/15/2023 2:48 pm : link
...
Colin  
Lines of Scrimmage : 3/15/2023 2:51 pm : link
Reid made a point right after the SB to say how good the OL was. Mahomes got a few runs in but the backs in the second half behind that OL ran outstanding and it changed the game. They passed for under 200 yards.

Buffalo again could not run in the playoffs. Way down from in season totals and the backs ran 13 times for minimal yardage. The D had its own issues against the run but the poor run game put the O in very challenging positions as happens come playoff time. The GM in his end of season presser said they need to address the lines and its his fault.

Outside some very few occurrences the game always comes back to the trenches. This was true in any decade imv.

Now if you want to assemble a elite QB, upper tier WR's with a functional PB OL you have a chance. Good luck finding all three of those components and even then good luck avoiding one of those D's. Ask the Pats how that worked out against the Giants.
All the mocks have him going way before the 25th pick  
gtt350 : 3/15/2023 2:51 pm : link
If by some miracle he was there at 25 I think Schoen would run the ticket up himself
O’Cyrus also  
Sky King : 3/15/2023 2:57 pm : link
Had ZERO penalties last season.
Getting with the program  
Colin@gbn : 3/15/2023 3:08 pm : link
Lines: I try not to get base much of my analysis on single games here or there. The fact is that the one constant among the good teams in the league is that they have really good receiver corps. Some do have good OLs (Philly) but some don't (Cincy), but let me repeat they all have great receivers.

Lets look at our own history. The Giants went to 5 of 6 NFL championship games in the late 1950s-early 1960s with a state of the art (for the day) passing attack and a great defense. We won Super Bowls in the 1980s thanks almost exclusively to one of the great Ds in league history. We won the 7/11 Super Bowls thanks to a good QB (playing the best football of his career) throwing to really good 3-man receiver groups, backed by the NASCAR pass rush group operating on all cylinders.

So again I ask myself. How do we get back? Fix the OL! Really.

Which isn't to say that the OL doesn't need work. It does. Neal has to be better and if he's not the Giants need some kind of emergency back-up plan. And I'd love to have a stud C but at what price because no matter how good your IOL is they just don't win games. And its why no IOL has been drafted in the top since the mid-1970s.

The reality is you win games in the NFL throwing the ball or by disrupting the other guys ability to throw the ball.
RE: RE: Positional value...  
Brown_Hornet : 3/15/2023 3:18 pm : link
In comment 16065303 Semipro Lineman said:
Quote:
In comment 16065281 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...is still important because of the amount of money that a 1st rd talent would cost in FA or a trade.

RD1 also includes an extra year of protection.



If he comes in and neutralizes the interior of the other NFC East defensive lines then he is worth it but I understand the reasoning of using the pick on someone at a more expensive in free agency position. But not if Torrence is clearly the better prospect.
I agree. I was speaking generally, not specifically about OT.
Colin  
Lines of Scrimmage : 3/15/2023 3:29 pm : link
I am pretty good from 1980 forward. Now HC's and QB's I can go back a bit further as I am a bit of a historian but can't challenge you on your points in the 60's. Appreciate the info though.

No arguments on the D. That is part of the trenches. Agree.

2007/11 Great D agree.

Here is something to consider. Giants faced the highest scoring team in the league both times.

Rushing totals/carries

'07 Giants 27 91 3.5
Pats 16 45 2.8

'11 Giants 28 114 4.1
Pats 19 83 4.4

'07 the Pats could not run. Which played right into the Giants strength. Pass rush. Had the Pats been able to run I doubt the Giants win this game. Poor down/distance is trouble against that front.

'11 Giants had a enormous TOP advantage. Again, this played into the Giants strength. Fresh pass rushers.

Eli was great in both. But the OL was a big part of it. Plus ten in rushing was a big deal.

Was Brady not elite enough? No. He needed more help from his OL and run game imv.

I don't see a guard in Rd 1 as long as WR1 is unresolved.  
81_Great_Dane : 3/15/2023 3:47 pm : link
But if the Giants are hung up on who is a slot receiver, they may not see a WR1 for them at #25. If the BPAs are at OT and DT, they may very well go OG at 25.

The problem is, if you don't get a WR in the first, you may not get one until the 4th or 5th without painfully overdrafting someone.
Colin  
Carl in CT : 3/15/2023 3:55 pm : link
So if there is no excellent receiver at #25, and there seems to be a very weak FA class then you are saying time to start looking for a deal? Don’t want to put words in your mouth.
I'd LOVE getting him  
David B. : 3/15/2023 4:10 pm : link
Even in the first round. They need OGs that are in the average starter to stud category. The only one who might grow into that on the current roster looks like Ezudu.

Doesn't have to be Torrence, or in the first round, but they need to add more.
RE: Colin  
Colin@gbn : 3/15/2023 4:23 pm : link
In comment 16065582 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
So if there is no excellent receiver at #25, and there seems to be a very weak FA class then you are saying time to start looking for a deal? Don’t want to put words in your mouth.


Carl: Just spit-balling here, but I would think that if the Giants do go into the draft targeting a WR they would likely start simply by keeping an eye on the top guys (for the sake of example) say Smith-Njigba, Q Johnson and Addison and if any come into range think about a move up. I would suspect they might also have a 2nd tier group - say Flowers and Hyatt - that once the top guys are gone they'd sit tight with as long as both were on the board and then act if one was selected. That's kind of how NFL teams operate when they are targeting a position generally.

The one other hing I could see them doing is looking at a DE like Keion White at #25 because its not clear a DE like that is going to be available late in the 2nd. If the Giants were to go that route I could almost certainly trading up in the 2nd too get the best WR available. I could also see them trading up in 2 if they got a WR in one for another WR or a DE like Adebawore. time will tell.
Collin  
Semipro Lineman : 3/15/2023 4:24 pm : link
I usually agree with you, but a huge part of the Chiefs' dominance of the second half of the Superbowl was due to their running game. A lot was made about the Chief's 2nd half adjustments but the Eagle's response was stayed in their version of the "nascar" all-pass rusher package which was badly abused. So yes we know that the modern NFL requires a passing game however the ability to run can't be overlooked.

Finally, this guard prospect seems to have a good college resume as a pass blocker and the straightest line to the QB for a pass rusher is up the middle.
Semi and Lines  
Colin@gbn : 3/15/2023 4:37 pm : link
I repeat you are basing your arguments on one game. Fact is you can find any one individual game to defend almost any position. Here is what you have to answer. Are there are any dominant teams in the NFL these days which has a really good OL and a very average skill group. And I can answer it for you. The answer is none. There aren't even any dominant teams these days with a really good OL and an average skill group and a great defence. It ain't rocket science!
Colin  
Lines of Scrimmage : 3/15/2023 4:43 pm : link
I think you need to be good all over. But history has shown in every decade pass happy teams have met their fate in the playoffs.

It's not about one game. It's about building a team that can win what Parcells called the "gauntlet". The 3 or four games in the playoffs culminating in the SB.

At some point you will need to operate outside your comfort zone.

At least on the offensive side, the OL and running game can help when you face one of those D's which is often that time of year.
RE: Semi and Lines  
Semipro Lineman : 3/15/2023 5:05 pm : link
In comment 16065658 Colin@gbn said:
Quote:
Are there are any dominant teams in the NFL these days which has a really good OL and a very average skill group. And I can answer it for you. The answer is none. There aren't even any dominant teams these days with a really good OL and an average skill group and a great defence. It ain't rocket science!


Counter point. We have also multiple cases where a below average OL wasted the talents of a good QB with an above average skill group. In 2022 alone, we have the Chargers, the Rams, the Bears, and the Raiders underperforming partially because of the OL.

Finally, the Giants aren't going to get to the Mountain Top with just one more off season. You would have a better case about fitting the current dynamics of the NFL when they've better closed the overall talent gap
My mock  
Earl the goat : 3/15/2023 5:28 pm : link
Had Ocyrus number 1 and John michael Schmidt at 2
earl  
AG5686 : 3/15/2023 6:02 pm : link
In comment 16065714 Earl the goat said:
Quote:
Had Ocyrus number 1 and John michael Schmidt at 2

sign me up for that one
RE: I would love a great center  
HarryCarson53 : 3/16/2023 10:16 am : link
In comment 16065375 Archer said:
Quote:
Most really good teams have really good to great centers.

Look at Philadelphia and KC. They have Kelse, and Humphrey played great last year for the Chiefs.

Typically a good center calls the line pick ups, helps the other linemen, helps to control the A-B gaps, can be a lead blocker.

If you watch Kelse he makes the entire line better

He’s a guard.
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