“I've heard some buzz today about the #Giants connected to D.J. Chark and Mecole Hardman. We'll see if that has any legs. You'd expect them to explore all options on the market.”
I think either would be good signings at the right price
“Hardman for obvious reasons with his time with Mike Kafka. I thought D.J. Chark would be above the Giants' price range, so it'll be interesting to see if they're just checking prices or legit involved.
There could be others.”
these guys are not significant upgrades to Slayton
Doesn't mean much of anything. Kicking the tires and getting an idea of the asking price. Nice thing about Schoen, he won't get bent over and squeal like a pig the way DG would. If price doesn't fit what he's looking for, he'll walk away and thank them for their time
since he has been very good when healthy but Hardman has untapped potential too. Ideally the Giants would sign one of those two, I would be happy with both, and then draft a WR in round 1. This WR group is very weak right now with just Hodgins healthy.
The truth is we don't know if Wan'Dale Robinson and Collin Johnson will be ready for week one and Shepard just can't be counted on even if he makes the team.
That's because he missed 12 games two years ago and 6 last season which is why he should be cheap. He is still just 26 years old while Hardman turned 25 three days ago.
Yup. As of right now Hodgins is the only legitimate WR the Giants can bank on playing in Week 1. That's it. Not a lot under contract and almost all of them coming back from season ending injuries.
They're going to bring in a WR in 5-10 AAV range at a minimum. Could be an off the radar trade too but they're not going into the draft with Hodgins and a bunch of injured players.
were to start right now, David Sills would be an important player. That's how bad this group is right now.
I think most know that. I don't see anybody disagreeing with your statement in this thread. The issue is supply and demand. Supply is low for FA WR so prices may be too high. Just because we have a need doesn't mean we need to overspend. The only thing that'll happen is hurting ourselves financially by committing decent money to a less than decent player. I know you know this already but that was the point I was making. WR just seems destined to be a position we target in the draft.
doesn’t align with this FA group. I’d rather they re-sign James and draft two guys relatively high than overpay someone like Chark or Hardman. Unless they can work a trade.
the profile of the trio of starters at least gave them the three elements needed.......a deep threat, a possession receiver and a slot guy. There was chemistry but they lacked talent. Against a mediocre playoff defense like Minnesota, it was adequate. But as far as the overall skill level, it was low as demonstrated by the lack of separation against Philly. I live in NE and the fans have the same complaint about the Pats.
add a couple of reliable vets with Wandale and Hodgins and drsft a WR...
Waller is your number 1 receiver, he is your elite guy, surround him with a couple of vets and a young wr you draft and that should be plenty of weapons
Some were thinking that Meyers, Juju and Lazard would come in around 15 AAV. They got standard WR2 money. Maybe one of this next tier gets priced with them but 5+ AAV is the going rate for an outside WR with starting experience.
Anything less than that is probably slot only or a fringe NFL guy like David Sills.
to sign a receiver or two who most Giants fans will bitch about signing, but they will be infinitely better than most of the guys currently under contract.
I don't see any avenue where they don't have Plan A
were to start right now, David Sills would be an important player. That's how bad this group is right now.
Yet, taking an OG or LB at 25 is commonly suggested here. Even with Waller we're 3 good WR short of anything that resembles even an average WR unit. And two of our "best" WR are both coming off ACLs.
Having a perimeter guy that stresses teams deep paired with Waller that can do the same down the seam gives this opens things up for this offense. He might be in play for another 1 yr prove it too. They should certainly pivot off him if he gets priced up though.
to sign a receiver or two who most Giants fans will bitch about signing, but they will be infinitely better than most of the guys currently under contract.
The fans will bitch about Chark and/or Hardman as well. They have major warts. They aren't infinitely better than anybody. I'm not saying it would be bad to add them. They are marginal #3 WRs. So best to temper expectations.
RE: I don't see any avenue where they don't have Plan A
So go sign an oft injured one to add to the stable of injured receivers? Chark hasn’t been healthy in years.
Which is why he will be cheap. You have to take gambles in free agency sometimes. Why not roll the dice on a 26 year old WR with 1000 yard season in his career? Nobody is suggesting signing him long term.
Also even if the Giants added both of these players that would not affect their draft plans.
flawed players, which every single available WR is, than you must be expecting a killer draft where 3 or 4 WRs are taken and produce.
These guys aren’t going to command massive sums of guarantee money. Other good franchises pounce on these opportunities and they hit - we are going to have to do the same.
and Chark would definitely be upgrades, but we shouldn't overspend just because the WR unit is a train wreck outside of Hodgins. We need to add one or two veteran WRs, but don't shop hungry. That just drives up the price.
and Chark would definitely be upgrades, but we shouldn't overspend just because the WR unit is a train wreck outside of Hodgins. We need to add one or two veteran WRs, but don't shop hungry. That just drives up the price.
Agreed, I would be happy with both but at the right price. I wouldn't go past two years with either of them.
and Chark would definitely be upgrades, but we shouldn't overspend just because the WR unit is a train wreck outside of Hodgins. We need to add one or two veteran WRs, but don't shop hungry. That just drives up the price.
Exactly. If they are still sitting there in a week talk to them. But I wouldn’t rush to sign either of them at the 3 day mark. I guarantee Hardman at least is looking for a multi year deal.
were to start right now, David Sills would be an important player. That's how bad this group is right now.
Yet, taking an OG or LB at 25 is commonly suggested here. Even with Waller we're 3 good WR short of anything that resembles even an average WR unit. And two of our "best" WR are both coming off ACLs.
If WR is the BPA than that is great. If not you are forcing a pick and that is a need pick. I would not want to pass on a better player at the two positions you mentioned.
RE: these guys are not significant upgrades to Slayton
Dude, are you on drugs we need 6-8 WR’s. We have 2-1/2, use your head.
Pls stop. You’re wrong. moving on
No one is wrong, there are multiple ways to address the issue. I prefer to either trade (if the price is right) or build through the draft. You would rather take a gamble on guys with “potential” that their original teams passed on re-signing. It could go well or it could completely bust. The difference is drafted players are much cheaper. I’d rather draft three WR’s than draft two and sign Hardman or Chark.
Rather spend whatever money we have on the guard from Phily. Lets fortify the line. Use the draft for wr. and center
Completely disagree. Obviously, the trenches and line of scrimmage are important, but they have already addressed the line. They have the bodies. They have the depth. Now we have to see if they can develop.
Meanwhile, they have no one healthy who can separate on the outside.
to sign a receiver or two who most Giants fans will bitch about signing, but they will be infinitely better than most of the guys currently under contract.
As a guy as they see as a true #1
. Hardman aint that, Chark ain't that.
Juedy, Hopkins, Pittman are that.
You're missing the point. The Giants don't just need a #1 WR they need to add up to 3 to the active roster.
True It is possible one of these guys come in addition to Jeudy,Hopkins etc. However defintiely not instead of them. Also one of those 3 you mention also probably come from the top 2 rounds of the draft.
to sign a receiver or two who most Giants fans will bitch about signing, but they will be infinitely better than most of the guys currently under contract.
The fans will bitch about Chark and/or Hardman as well. They have major warts. They aren't infinitely better than anybody. I'm not saying it would be bad to add them. They are marginal #3 WRs. So best to temper expectations.
Sure they would. They are legit NFL receivers. The guys who are under contract on our roster are mostly not. We have Hodgins, a draft pick coming off an ACL, and a veteran who can't stay healthy. That's it.
when healthy. The “when healthy” is a concern though. He’s missed chunks of the last 3 seasons. Between him, Waller and Shep, our receivers will be a MASH unit.
Hodgins is the only healthy NFL caliber receiver they have.
Wan’Dale is coming off an ACL. He may even end up on PUP. He’s also limited to being a slot guy.
Shep is on the vet min. Not even sure if he’s started running yet. Has been injury prone his entire career. Would be surprised if that changes now as he enters his 30’s. I think they brought him back more as an ode to his leadership and work ethic- and to give him a chance to rehab at the facility. Anything they get out of him is a bonus.
Collin Johnson balled out in the spring but blew out his achilles IIRC. While he has some upside, he’s far from being a lock to contribute in a meaningful way. He’s more of a back of the roster guy.
In comment 16065763 floridagiantsfan said:Quote: Rather spend whatever money we have on the guard from Phily. Lets fortify the line. Use the draft for wr. and center////////
Completely disagree. Obviously, the trenches and line of scrimmage are important, but they have already addressed the line. They have the bodies. They have the depth. Now we have to see if they can develop.
Meanwhile, they have no one healthy who can separate on the outside.
hi, Vin--and you've been doing good work here--no one can disagree your last point, but the hole in your OL argument is that, while yes they've been 'addressed' and have bodies, those bodies were big fails and unless they develop in pretty radical fashion, we'll likely be stuck very much the same on O as in '22 even if the receiver group is upgraded. Aside from his neck injury (could be a big aside), Ezeudu is unproven, unknown. Neal was a huge drag on the passing game and no one knows what his level will be. JF and Glow were mediocre almost the whole season though Glow did improve late. Four big ?? out of 5. Gates is gone; I'd like to see BB at C, unless we draft a guy who can come in and start day 1. I don't think Schoen and BB are 'don't sleep on xxx" guys, so I think they will make a key move or two.
So many people are counting on Robinson next season
The guy tore his ACL and his game is his shiftiness and agility to get open. Can he come back next season yes but it’s not that likely. Look at OBJ, he missed the whole season. We need 2 FA just to show the young guys how to be an NFL WR.
Hodgins is a nice story but he’s not a starting WR. He’s a 3 at best and it showed against good defense. He’s a smart player but he just doesn’t have the talent against good corners. He is a great role player very much like Slayton and when you ask too much they just can’t do it. You’ll love each as a 3 or 4 and be underwhelmed as a 1 or 2.
to add a really good WR this off season. I still like to gamble on Hopkins if he’s willing to re work his deal. You got a 40M QB now, expectations start to get higher after that
don't get the sense that Giants fans realize how bad our receivers were last year. Look at the depth chart right now and who is under contract.
I think most Giant fans understand how bad they were. A small minority of fans, who i believe were all anti-Jones, seemed to act like the WRs were just fine.
They didn't like the WRs being used as an "excuse" for Jones less than spectacular passing stats. As if WR talent doesn't matter and it's all on Jones.
I suspect we won't hear much from them, as the Giants improve their receivers and Jones passing stats improve significantly.
I know ive been a broken record but hardman is a very good fit
last year he played significant snaps in 8 games and had 6 touchdowns. 2 were rushing touchdowns, 4 were receiving.
last year was the first chance he was going to get to be more than a distant 3rd option behind Kelce/Hill, and just as he was getting going with touchdowns in 3 straight games he got hurt.
he's only 25, he's made improvements year over year, his hands are better than slaytons and he replaces all of his speed and then some.
i dont want slayton back, but he's a starter quality player they need to replace, and hardman is an upgrade.
chark is a higher upside version of slayton. dont hate the gamble but also dont love it. he has a lower floor than slayton who is at least somewhat of a known quantity.
Which is doable given the picks they have and they all don’t need to be early picks. Makes way more sense than playing with the cap to overspend on trash veterans. Hardman has been a major disappointment since day one.
In comment 16065763 floridagiantsfan said:Quote: Rather spend whatever money we have on the guard from Phily. Lets fortify the line. Use the draft for wr. and center////////
Completely disagree. Obviously, the trenches and line of scrimmage are important, but they have already addressed the line. They have the bodies. They have the depth. Now we have to see if they can develop.
Meanwhile, they have no one healthy who can separate on the outside.
hi, Vin--and you've been doing good work here--no one can disagree your last point, but the hole in your OL argument is that, while yes they've been 'addressed' and have bodies, those bodies were big fails and unless they develop in pretty radical fashion, we'll likely be stuck very much the same on O as in '22 even if the receiver group is upgraded. Aside from his neck injury (could be a big aside), Ezeudu is unproven, unknown. Neal was a huge drag on the passing game and no one knows what his level will be. JF and Glow were mediocre almost the whole season though Glow did improve late. Four big ?? out of 5. Gates is gone; I'd like to see BB at C, unless we draft a guy who can come in and start day 1. I don't think Schoen and BB are 'don't sleep on xxx" guys, so I think they will make a key move or two.
I'd love to get more certainty on the lines, but Neal was drafted 7th overall. He will be given every opportunity to succeed.
Glowinski still has guaranteed money. He started every game last year. He will be the starter this year.
Obviously, this regime likes Ezeudu. He improved throughout the year and even saw time as a starter. He was drafted to start.
Thomas is Thomas.
That leaves center, but I think we all agree that Bredeson or Feliciano will get that spot.
I'm not saying that these players can't be upgraded or play better, but they have to allocate their resources wisely. They have to see what they have with Neal and Ezeudu.
Now if they want to upgrade the center spot, I am all for it, but good or bad, the other 4 positions are already accounted for in 2023.
6'4" and 4.3 speed. Had a 1000-yard receiving season in Jacksonville. If he can stay healthy...
Kafka knows Hardman from Kansas City. Great return man. Can be used in many schemes. Again, 4.3 speed.
Notice a theme...speed!
Getting Ds to respect the receivers, especially give our OL is not yet able to protect DJ long enough to stay in the pocket, also helps getting SB open on swing passes or through the line on a delayed draw and likely get him 2 yards passed the LOS and let him use his feet and wiggle to get some good yardage….like opponents do to us.
Mentioned this a bit earlier in your Thielen thread.. I know NYG called to check numbers but not sure how far that conversation went. Link - ( New Window )
6'4" and 4.3 speed. Had a 1000-yard receiving season in Jacksonville. If he can stay healthy...
Kafka knows Hardman from Kansas City. Great return man. Can be used in many schemes. Again, 4.3 speed.
Notice a theme...speed!
Getting Ds to respect the receivers, especially give our OL is not yet able to protect DJ long enough to stay in the pocket, also helps getting SB open on swing passes or through the line on a delayed draw and likely get him 2 yards passed the LOS and let him use his feet and wiggle to get some good yardage….like opponents do to us.
from pff - comparison hardman vs slayton last year by target depth
here's slayton. you can see he wasn't particularly good deep and he was mostly utilized in the 0-9 yard range, but his efficiency was very good intermediate in the 10-19 yard range and that's where he had his most yac yards. he is rarely used behind the LOS. i think these numbers pretty accurately reflect his strengths from last year where he made improvements on those mid-range crossing routes but wasnt really good anywhere else.
by contrast, hardman was good at all levels. he is often utilized behind the LOS and generated almost 8 yac yards per catch (also ran in 2 tds not in these numbers). that's an element slayton doesn't have. in the middle ranges he was more efficient with fewer drops. and on the deep balls he was also a little more efficient. what's also notable is that even though jones threw fewer INTs than any other QB, he threw 3 when targeting slayton whereas hardman had no ints when he was thrown to.
i dont know what hardman's season would have looked like over a full year instead of a half year, but we've seen enough from slayton that i'd rather roll the dice on a guy who i think just fits the offense better because he can do more things.
will help the whole pass operation. Giants struggled significantly here against division teams and others with those challenging fronts. One of the QB's best friends is being ahead of the chains keeping run/pass option open. Helps the WR/TE's as well.
Teams will be better prepared for that short passing game this year as Philly was in the playoffs.
Ideally you want to be able to run is the environment above and have the WR arsenal.
What will also help is assembling a D that gives up 18 pts/game and I think this is closer than some with some good moves.
Schoen can go a few different ways and still put a good team on the field imv. Go with BPA and don't overspend in FA.
It's a bad situation to be in. There aren't many guys available that DO score and have been more productive than Slayton while he's so flawed. You can go get an old declining Theilen or make a draft pick trade. Grim.
is quite disturbing. He is sooo overrated.Chark or Hardman would be significant upgrades over Slayton. Agree though none would be a #1. Chark and Hardman are 2/3 wr's.
is quite disturbing. He is sooo overrated.Chark or Hardman would be significant upgrades over Slayton. Agree though none would be a #1. Chark and Hardman are 2/3 wr's.
"Disturbing" is dramatic. Giants fans also have a consistent tendency to define their own players by their flaws rather than what they do well.
Slayton averages 15 yard a catch. He has legitimate NFL downfield speed that has translated in games to big plays. Yeah his hands aren't great. That's why he was a late pick.
Hardman has more reliable hands and...that's it. Despite playing with a Hall of Fame QB on an offense that does video game numbers he is....what?
Can't even get on the field. Even after trading Hill he plays less than half the Chiefs' offensive snaps on a team that throws the ball all over the field.
is quite disturbing. He is sooo overrated.Chark or Hardman would be significant upgrades over Slayton. Agree though none would be a #1. Chark and Hardman are 2/3 wr's.
What love? Some of us think he's a quality WR3-type who has a good physical toolbox. But he clearly has deficiencies that keep him at that WR3 level.
is quite disturbing. He is sooo overrated.Chark or Hardman would be significant upgrades over Slayton. Agree though none would be a #1. Chark and Hardman are 2/3 wr's.
You are 1000% right on all points -- hard to fathom the level Slayton's being overrated here, and I'd be thrilled with Chark/Hardman as upgrades even if they're wr 2/3s.
more reliable hands when your job is to catch is kind of important
is quite disturbing. He is sooo overrated.Chark or Hardman would be significant upgrades over Slayton. Agree though none would be a #1. Chark and Hardman are 2/3 wr's.
"Disturbing" is dramatic. Giants fans also have a consistent tendency to define their own players by their flaws rather than what they do well.
Slayton averages 15 yard a catch. He has legitimate NFL downfield speed that has translated in games to big plays. Yeah his hands aren't great. That's why he was a late pick.
Hardman has more reliable hands and...that's it. Despite playing with a Hall of Fame QB on an offense that does video game numbers he is....what?
Can't even get on the field. Even after trading Hill he plays less than half the Chiefs' offensive snaps on a team that throws the ball all over the field.
Let's not pretend that Slayton is faster than Hardman or Chark...
Hardman: 4.33
Chark: 4.34
Slayton: 4.39
RE: more reliable hands when your job is to catch is kind of important
that's an "other than that, how was the play mrs lincoln".
in 8 games hardman had 6 tds, which is almost the same total slayton has had in the last 3 years combined.
I love that we now have access to more information these days. 6 touchdowns, sure. Here are the yards on those scoring receptions in 2022.
2 yard pass
3 yard pass
8 yard pass
7 yard pass
In 2022,
8 yard td
8 yard td.
I'm not saying he's a bad player. He got a roster spot on a championship team. Reid knows offense. But I'm not in a hurry to undervalue a speed/big play threat for a part time possession guy.
They are useful spare parts. But they aren't a way to remake the WR corps.
both are upgrades none the less
Not according to their stats they aren't. I'd rather have slayton than either of these 2. The ONLY reason you would want either of these 2 scrubs is because they are cheaper than slayton. He has more speed, health, and production, last year, and career wise than either of these 2, that's just a fact, and if you think you'd wind up complaining less having these guys on the roster than slayton you're mistaken. He is the best WR of the 3, and will likely be paid as such, bottom line.
Are fine targets for the Giants. I slightly lean towards Chark and Hardman simply for the change and potential ceilings but Slayton isn't total trash. Hardman gives you some special teams ability and designed redzone touch versatility. Chark and Slayton the better outside vertical threats. All 3 can run but Hardman has another gear and Chark more size. It largely comes down to price for me between the 3. I don't think Agholar is the worst option either if he's at a further discount.
I'd prefer any of those 4 to like a Theilen though. This offense was really slow last year, Waller is a start but they need to add juice. Use free agency to address the short term need of speed and the draft to select the most talented WR(s) regardless of skillset.
who we know will be healthy for training camp:
Isaiah Hodgins
David Sills
Makai Polk
Jaydon Mickens
Kalil Pimpleton
That's it. If you guys think that Hardman or Chark would not be upgrades then you don't know how dire the situation is at WR.
Slayton would be #2 on that list, just sayin...
I would take Slayton over Hardman or Chark. Knows the playbook and healthier than both of them.
Knows the playbook? Is that the goal now? If so, that is a pretty low bar. Any new player will also learn the playbook.
Well, you COULD add that he has more production, is faster and healthier than any of the guys on the list, or the 2 clowns under consideration? I mean, that is, if we are considering things like, you know, facts?
RE: RE: more reliable hands when your job is to catch is kind of important
that's an "other than that, how was the play mrs lincoln".
in 8 games hardman had 6 tds, which is almost the same total slayton has had in the last 3 years combined.
I love that we now have access to more information these days. 6 touchdowns, sure. Here are the yards on those scoring receptions in 2022.
2 yard pass
3 yard pass
8 yard pass
7 yard pass
In 2022,
8 yard td
8 yard td.
I'm not saying he's a bad player. He got a roster spot on a championship team. Reid knows offense. But I'm not in a hurry to undervalue a speed/big play threat for a part time possession guy.
hardman is just as fast if not faster than slayton, there are just more ways to get his hands in the ball because he's a more versatile player. whether it's runs, screens, or special teams.
as receivers his career ypc (13.8) isn't far off slayton's (15) so calling him a possession receiver isn't that accurate. there isn't a big gap in their explosiveness even though slayton's had higher volume.
they've each hit similar numbers of chunk plays:
slayton 38x 20+, 9x 40+
hardman 28x 20+, 9x 40+
hardman has 3 additional runs 20+. and 2 return tds.
last year he played significant snaps in 8 games and had 6 touchdowns. 2 were rushing touchdowns, 4 were receiving.
last year was the first chance he was going to get to be more than a distant 3rd option behind Kelce/Hill, and just as he was getting going with touchdowns in 3 straight games he got hurt.
he's only 25, he's made improvements year over year, his hands are better than slaytons and he replaces all of his speed and then some.
i dont want slayton back, but he's a starter quality player they need to replace, and hardman is an upgrade.
chark is a higher upside version of slayton. dont hate the gamble but also dont love it. he has a lower floor than slayton who is at least somewhat of a known quantity.
Harman is not in fact an upgrade over Slayton. His production doesn't say so.\
If you want guys that are upgrades over slayton than pick guys who are actually upgrades over slayton. Slayton has been healthier, and more productive, faster, and more consistent than either of these 2 or anyone on the roster.
Hodgins had a nice 2 months out of his career.none of these guys beats slaytons production.1 guy has 1 more careeer touchdown. all ahve less yards, and less yds per attempt.
Gimme Slayton over these guys. If his drops go down, it isn't even close who is the better reciever.
RE: more reliable hands when your job is to catch is kind of important
Stats only tell stories skin deep. If you think Chark and Hardman are not upgrades over Slayton then you are lost. Stop googling statistics and actually watch these players in games and in different offensive SYSTEMS. Look at the nuances like running rounded routes(Slayton), cutting routes short(Slayton), just standing around when your QB is scrambling instead of coming back to help your QB(Slayton), drops (Slayton)....
At that right price what is so bad about Chark or Hardman?
last year he played significant snaps in 8 games and had 6 touchdowns. 2 were rushing touchdowns, 4 were receiving.
last year was the first chance he was going to get to be more than a distant 3rd option behind Kelce/Hill, and just as he was getting going with touchdowns in 3 straight games he got hurt.
he's only 25, he's made improvements year over year, his hands are better than slaytons and he replaces all of his speed and then some.
i dont want slayton back, but he's a starter quality player they need to replace, and hardman is an upgrade.
chark is a higher upside version of slayton. dont hate the gamble but also dont love it. he has a lower floor than slayton who is at least somewhat of a known quantity.
Harman is not in fact an upgrade over Slayton. His production doesn't say so.\
If you want guys that are upgrades over slayton than pick guys who are actually upgrades over slayton. Slayton has been healthier, and more productive, faster, and more consistent than either of these 2 or anyone on the roster.
Hodgins had a nice 2 months out of his career.none of these guys beats slaytons production.1 guy has 1 more careeer touchdown. all ahve less yards, and less yds per attempt.
Gimme Slayton over these guys. If his drops go down, it isn't even close who is the better reciever.
100% agree with this.
RE: RE: more reliable hands when your job is to catch is kind of important
that's an "other than that, how was the play mrs lincoln".
in 8 games hardman had 6 tds, which is almost the same total slayton has had in the last 3 years combined.
Well, Hardman did have Patrick Lavon Mahomes, II throwing to him.
Mvs and jjss each had seasons around their lowest td totals as pros. Mahomes doesn’t instantly mean players stats get inflated. Tyreek went to Miami and had his best year with Tua and a bunch of backups.
There is a reason hardman is projected to make a lot more than slayton in pretty much all the salary projections.
RE: RE: RE: more reliable hands when your job is to catch is kind of important
that's an "other than that, how was the play mrs lincoln".
in 8 games hardman had 6 tds, which is almost the same total slayton has had in the last 3 years combined.
I love that we now have access to more information these days. 6 touchdowns, sure. Here are the yards on those scoring receptions in 2022.
2 yard pass
3 yard pass
8 yard pass
7 yard pass
In 2022,
8 yard td
8 yard td.
I'm not saying he's a bad player. He got a roster spot on a championship team. Reid knows offense. But I'm not in a hurry to undervalue a speed/big play threat for a part time possession guy.
hardman is just as fast if not faster than slayton, there are just more ways to get his hands in the ball because he's a more versatile player. whether it's runs, screens, or special teams.
as receivers his career ypc (13.8) isn't far off slayton's (15) so calling him a possession receiver isn't that accurate. there isn't a big gap in their explosiveness even though slayton's had higher volume.
they've each hit similar numbers of chunk plays:
slayton 38x 20+, 9x 40+
hardman 28x 20+, 9x 40+
hardman has 3 additional runs 20+. and 2 return tds.
The career YPC is 13.8. The last two years it's less than 11. Slayton has consistently been better.
Combine speed notwithstanding, does that *really* show up in games? The production doesn't really support it, nor does what the Chiefs actively do personnel-wise.
The speed got him drafted, and since then he hasn't really done anything with it since the rookie year and the Chiefs have been adding WRs left and right. His breakout year was supposed to come once the chiefs parted ways with Watkins, and it didn't. Then Hill left, and there were opportunities, and it didn't happen. Since then the Chiefs added Schuster, drafted Moore in round 2, added Valdez-Scantling and they're letting Hardman hit Free Agency in a down year for pass catchers. So they're not happy with their WRs either.
On top of that, he's small, which everyone already doesn't like about WRs for the Giants. So what's the trade off? Get smaller, less proven despite the physical gifts, but better hands. The real benefit to fans is simply that he's Not Slayton, which I suspect is the main focus.
I’m not even talking about cap at this point. I would rather draft a receiver in the 5th round from a roster spot perspective. That player is 4 years younger and there’s untapped potential.
We know what Hardman is at this point.
RE: RE: RE: more reliable hands when your job is to catch is kind of important
Mvs and jjss each had seasons around their lowest td totals as pros. Mahomes doesn’t instantly mean players stats get inflated. Tyreek went to Miami and had his best year with Tua and a bunch of backups.
There is a reason hardman is projected to make a lot more than slayton in pretty much all the salary projections.
I'm not saying Slayton is > Hardman. I'm suggesting you can't dismiss the Mahomes factor. Toney is looking more and more interesting now that he's in the same huddle as Mahomes.
Schuster found a second career wind in KC. And MVS had a career high in catches.
And you may want to re-think that comment about Hill having his best year in Miami. There were years in KC where Hill was catching 15 TD passes.
Mvs and jjss each had seasons around their lowest td totals as pros. Mahomes doesn’t instantly mean players stats get inflated. Tyreek went to Miami and had his best year with Tua and a bunch of backups.
There is a reason hardman is projected to make a lot more than slayton in pretty much all the salary projections.
I'm not saying Slayton is > Hardman. I'm suggesting you can't dismiss the Mahomes factor. Toney is looking more and more interesting now that he's in the same huddle as Mahomes.
Schuster found a second career wind in KC. And MVS had a career high in catches.
And you may want to re-think that comment about Hill having his best year in Miami. There were years in KC where Hill was catching 15 TD passes.
I think Eric may be Hardman’s agent lol (no offense Eric in LI, just messing around). We all have different ideas on the WR situation, hopefully Schoen makes the right call(s).
RE: RE: RE: RE: more reliable hands when your job is to catch is kind of important
Mvs and jjss each had seasons around their lowest td totals as pros. Mahomes doesn’t instantly mean players stats get inflated. Tyreek went to Miami and had his best year with Tua and a bunch of backups.
There is a reason hardman is projected to make a lot more than slayton in pretty much all the salary projections.
I'm not saying Slayton is > Hardman. I'm suggesting you can't dismiss the Mahomes factor. Toney is looking more and more interesting now that he's in the same huddle as Mahomes.
Schuster found a second career wind in KC. And MVS had a career high in catches.
And you may want to re-think that comment about Hill having his best year in Miami. There were years in KC where Hill was catching 15 TD passes.
Tryeek was an mvp candidate on pace to break Calvin Johnson’s record before tua got hurt so all good on the rethink.
Toney barely played offense in kc and didn’t have a single game with mahomes half as good as the Dallas game last year - and most of that was with glennon. His big play in the sb was a punt return.
RE: RE: RE: RE: more reliable hands when your job is to catch is kind of important
The career YPC is 13.8. The last two years it's less than 11. Slayton has consistently been better.
Combine speed notwithstanding, does that *really* show up in games? The production doesn't really support it, nor does what the Chiefs actively do personnel-wise.
The speed got him drafted, and since then he hasn't really done anything with it since the rookie year and the Chiefs have been adding WRs left and right. His breakout year was supposed to come once the chiefs parted ways with Watkins, and it didn't. Then Hill left, and there were opportunities, and it didn't happen. Since then the Chiefs added Schuster, drafted Moore in round 2, added Valdez-Scantling and they're letting Hardman hit Free Agency in a down year for pass catchers. So they're not happy with their WRs either.
On top of that, he's small, which everyone already doesn't like about WRs for the Giants. So what's the trade off? Get smaller, less proven despite the physical gifts, but better hands. The real benefit to fans is simply that he's Not Slayton, which I suspect is the main focus.
He was playing really well this year before he got hurt. To say his speed doesn’t show up on tape or that he wasn’t productive this past year just isn’t true. What is true is that it took him time to develop. Anyone who has watched him over the past few years can tell you that he’s a much better football player now than he was when he came into the league.
We don’t know yet if the Chiefs are letting him walk. They also have cap issues and other holes to fill. This team just let Tyreek Hill go. Does that mean Tyreek Hill isn’t good? They didn’t miss a beat either so it’s not like they have reason to fear losing a good WR.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: more reliable hands when your job is to catch is kind of important
Mvs and jjss each had seasons around their lowest td totals as pros. Mahomes doesn’t instantly mean players stats get inflated. Tyreek went to Miami and had his best year with Tua and a bunch of backups.
There is a reason hardman is projected to make a lot more than slayton in pretty much all the salary projections.
I'm not saying Slayton is > Hardman. I'm suggesting you can't dismiss the Mahomes factor. Toney is looking more and more interesting now that he's in the same huddle as Mahomes.
Schuster found a second career wind in KC. And MVS had a career high in catches.
And you may want to re-think that comment about Hill having his best year in Miami. There were years in KC where Hill was catching 15 TD passes.
I think Eric may be Hardman’s agent lol (no offense Eric in LI, just messing around). We all have different ideas on the WR situation, hopefully Schoen makes the right call(s).
The way the market has developed and with Waller added he makes the most sense. That wasn’t as much the case before yesterday. And before jakobi meyers deal came in lower than expected.
Mack Hollins = 2.5M
Chris Moore = Vet Min.
Deandre Carter = 2M
Hollins is an interesting name too. I'm not sure he's at any different of a price point than the guys we're discussing now though. I'm out on Deandre Carter, he's a slot guy and we've got that covered between Wan'Dale/Shep and what's likely available in the draft. I'd go for Berrios if we were to target a slot.
I wouldn't bother with any of these crappy and overpriced WRs. You draft three WRs in the draft and use free agency to fill the OL and DL. Get DBs in the draft as well.
I wouldn't bother with any of these crappy and overpriced WRs. You draft three WRs in the draft and use free agency to fill the OL and DL. Get DBs in the draft as well.
We have 4 picks on day 1 and 2. After that you are looking at long shots. We cannot draft 3 WRs across day 1 and 2. A WR or two needs to be signed. None of these guys are getting big long term dollars, it’ll be low risk.
For any of these marginal FA receivers. A good WR will be there in the first and second round. Plus cap casualties will happen down the line, that we can pick up a fraction of the price.
I wouldn't bother with any of these crappy and overpriced WRs. You draft three WRs in the draft and use free agency to fill the OL and DL. Get DBs in the draft as well.
NYG needs bodies...and with the holes on the roster i think 2 WRs in the draft are possible, but not 3.
around here. Shepard has been the definition of mediocre when healthy and always injured, but he's often talked about as a decent "starter" and a leader simply because he has good hands and refuses to retire after so many injuries I guess?
Slayton has his valleys for sure, but he would be the only receiver capable of making explosive chunk plays right now. If I had to pick to between the two, I'm taking Slayton.
Interesting stat: in spite of the drops Slayton had a career high 64.8% catch percentage last year. Pretty good for a 15 YPC guy. Chark never had more than 61.9% (his pro bowl year) and has been pretty awful in the three years since. Registered 5 drops to Slayton's 7 in 2022.
I couldn’t care less about Slayton’s catch percentage.
Well Shep is basically on an incentivized vet min non-guaranteed contract while I assume Slayton will get some money and guarantees. In a vacuum it's a slamdunk Slayton over Shep this year for sure but there's different commitments required.
Well Shep is basically on an incentivized vet min non-guaranteed contract while I assume Slayton will get some money and guarantees. In a vacuum it's a slamdunk Slayton over Shep this year for sure but there's different commitments required.
Will Shep even make it out of camp and onto the team?
Well Shep is basically on an incentivized vet min non-guaranteed contract while I assume Slayton will get some money and guarantees. In a vacuum it's a slamdunk Slayton over Shep this year for sure but there's different commitments required.
Will Shep even make it out of camp and onto the team?
Probably not. If he does, it's if he's healthy and Wan'Dale is on the PUP to start. Hard to say at this point but he's very far from a lock.
Well Shep is basically on an incentivized vet min non-guaranteed contract while I assume Slayton will get some money and guarantees. In a vacuum it's a slamdunk Slayton over Shep this year for sure but there's different commitments required.
Will Shep even make it out of camp and onto the team?
Probably not. If he does, it's if he's healthy and Wan'Dale is on the PUP to start. Hard to say at this point but he's very far from a lock.
True
slayton is like engram, randle, and larry donnell before him
he can put up numbers but for the most part they have been empty because the mistakes he makes help opposing teams as much as his production helps his team.
the key thing with slayton is that his weakness, drops, has been an issue that has plagued him going back to college. it's why he fell to the 6th round in the first place. his final year at auburn he had 8 drops and 35 catches in 72 targets. for every 4 catches he made he had 1 drop. that is not sustainable.
this past year he had 8 drops against 51 catches in 83 targets.
in 2021 he had 6 drops against 26 catches in 55 targets.
he has literally had the worst drop% in football each of the last 2 years.
it's hard to see any hope slayton can correct his drop issues because it's pretty consistently who he has been dating back to college. and because it literally showed up at the most important time last year in the WC game.
“ FA WR DJ Chark is visiting the #Panthers tomorrow, a source tells @theScore.
In the six games he saw five or more targets last season, the former LSU standout averaged nearly 70 yards per game with three total TDs for the #Lions. Really good player who’s finally healthy as well.”
but it’s pretty clear the FO has soured on him. They’ve made no effort to resign him. He’s not going to be a Giant. The question is, who do they bring in? Both Hardman and Chark have warts, Mecole with inconsistency, DJ with drops. Personally, I’d take a flyer on Chark. 6’4 200 and fast as hell. Get him in front of the juggs machine and see what he can do. Neither contract will prevent the Giants from moving on.
this thread moot. I’ve got to honk it’s unlikely they’ll bring in another WR unless it’s a top level guy (Jeudy, Aiyuk, etc, neither of which I expect to happen).
but it’s pretty clear the FO has soured on him. They’ve made no effort to resign him. He’s not going to be a Giant. The question is, who do they bring in? Both Hardman and Chark have warts, Mecole with inconsistency, DJ with drops. Personally, I’d take a flyer on Chark. 6’4 200 and fast as hell. Get him in front of the juggs machine and see what he can do. Neither contract will prevent the Giants from moving on.
There could be others.”
There just aren't any guys out there in FA that would remake the WR corps.
The truth is we don't know if Wan'Dale Robinson and Collin Johnson will be ready for week one and Shepard just can't be counted on even if he makes the team.
That's because he missed 12 games two years ago and 6 last season which is why he should be cheap. He is still just 26 years old while Hardman turned 25 three days ago.
They're going to bring in a WR in 5-10 AAV range at a minimum. Could be an off the radar trade too but they're not going into the draft with Hodgins and a bunch of injured players.
I think most know that. I don't see anybody disagreeing with your statement in this thread. The issue is supply and demand. Supply is low for FA WR so prices may be too high. Just because we have a need doesn't mean we need to overspend. The only thing that'll happen is hurting ourselves financially by committing decent money to a less than decent player. I know you know this already but that was the point I was making. WR just seems destined to be a position we target in the draft.
Waller is your number 1 receiver, he is your elite guy, surround him with a couple of vets and a young wr you draft and that should be plenty of weapons
Anything less than that is probably slot only or a fringe NFL guy like David Sills.
This
How do you figure?
Kafka knows Hardman from Kansas City. Great return man. Can be used in many schemes. Again, 4.3 speed.
Notice a theme...speed!
. Hardman aint that, Chark ain't that.
Juedy, Hopkins, Pittman are that.
Yet, taking an OG or LB at 25 is commonly suggested here. Even with Waller we're 3 good WR short of anything that resembles even an average WR unit. And two of our "best" WR are both coming off ACLs.
The fans will bitch about Chark and/or Hardman as well. They have major warts. They aren't infinitely better than anybody. I'm not saying it would be bad to add them. They are marginal #3 WRs. So best to temper expectations.
. Hardman aint that, Chark ain't that.
Juedy, Hopkins, Pittman are that.
You're missing the point. The Giants don't just need a #1 WR they need to add up to 3 to the active roster.
Dude, are you on drugs we need 6-8 WR’s. We have 2-1/2, use your head.
Good idea we’ll just line up all our backup guards to run routes, it’ll be fine
Isaiah Hodgins
David Sills
Makai Polk
Jaydon Mickens
Kalil Pimpleton
That's it. If you guys think that Hardman or Chark would not be upgrades then you don't know how dire the situation is at WR.
Quote:
Chark hasn’t been good in like three years.
Dude, are you on drugs we need 6-8 WR’s. We have 2-1/2, use your head.
So go sign an oft injured one to add to the stable of injured receivers? Chark hasn’t been healthy in years.
Isaiah Hodgins
David Sills
Makai Polk
Jaydon Mickens
Kalil Pimpleton
That's it. If you guys think that Hardman or Chark would not be upgrades then you don't know how dire the situation is at WR.
Did anyone say they wouldn't be upgrades?
So go sign an oft injured one to add to the stable of injured receivers? Chark hasn’t been healthy in years.
Which is why he will be cheap. You have to take gambles in free agency sometimes. Why not roll the dice on a 26 year old WR with 1000 yard season in his career? Nobody is suggesting signing him long term.
Also even if the Giants added both of these players that would not affect their draft plans.
2.) keep trying to work a trade for Jeudy, Hopkins, or Aiyuk.
3.) if #2 fails sign a low-mid level FA and plan on drafting at least two WR’s in the first four rounds.
These guys aren’t going to command massive sums of guarantee money. Other good franchises pounce on these opportunities and they hit - we are going to have to do the same.
Agreed, I would be happy with both but at the right price. I wouldn't go past two years with either of them.
Exactly. If they are still sitting there in a week talk to them. But I wouldn’t rush to sign either of them at the 3 day mark. I guarantee Hardman at least is looking for a multi year deal.
Quote:
Chark hasn’t been good in like three years.
Dude, are you on drugs we need 6-8 WR’s. We have 2-1/2, use your head.
Pls stop. You’re wrong. moving on
Quote:
were to start right now, David Sills would be an important player. That's how bad this group is right now.
Yet, taking an OG or LB at 25 is commonly suggested here. Even with Waller we're 3 good WR short of anything that resembles even an average WR unit. And two of our "best" WR are both coming off ACLs.
If WR is the BPA than that is great. If not you are forcing a pick and that is a need pick. I would not want to pass on a better player at the two positions you mentioned.
both are upgrades none the less
Quote:
In comment 16065730 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
Chark hasn’t been good in like three years.
Dude, are you on drugs we need 6-8 WR’s. We have 2-1/2, use your head.
Pls stop. You’re wrong. moving on
No one is wrong, there are multiple ways to address the issue. I prefer to either trade (if the price is right) or build through the draft. You would rather take a gamble on guys with “potential” that their original teams passed on re-signing. It could go well or it could completely bust. The difference is drafted players are much cheaper. I’d rather draft three WR’s than draft two and sign Hardman or Chark.
Completely disagree. Obviously, the trenches and line of scrimmage are important, but they have already addressed the line. They have the bodies. They have the depth. Now we have to see if they can develop.
Meanwhile, they have no one healthy who can separate on the outside.
Agreed 💯
Isaiah Hodgins
David Sills
Makai Polk
Jaydon Mickens
Kalil Pimpleton
That's it. If you guys think that Hardman or Chark would not be upgrades then you don't know how dire the situation is at WR.
Slayton would be #2 on that list, just sayin...
Quote:
As a guy as they see as a true #1
. Hardman aint that, Chark ain't that.
Juedy, Hopkins, Pittman are that.
You're missing the point. The Giants don't just need a #1 WR they need to add up to 3 to the active roster.
True It is possible one of these guys come in addition to Jeudy,Hopkins etc. However defintiely not instead of them. Also one of those 3 you mention also probably come from the top 2 rounds of the draft.
Quote:
who we know will be healthy for training camp:
Isaiah Hodgins
David Sills
Makai Polk
Jaydon Mickens
Kalil Pimpleton
That's it. If you guys think that Hardman or Chark would not be upgrades then you don't know how dire the situation is at WR.
Slayton would be #2 on that list, just sayin...
I would take Slayton over Hardman or Chark. Knows the playbook and healthier than both of them.
Too busy whining about Jones to notice. It’s been this way since Beckham left. They tried with Golladay and Toney, it blew up in their face.
Quote:
to sign a receiver or two who most Giants fans will bitch about signing, but they will be infinitely better than most of the guys currently under contract.
The fans will bitch about Chark and/or Hardman as well. They have major warts. They aren't infinitely better than anybody. I'm not saying it would be bad to add them. They are marginal #3 WRs. So best to temper expectations.
Sure they would. They are legit NFL receivers. The guys who are under contract on our roster are mostly not. We have Hodgins, a draft pick coming off an ACL, and a veteran who can't stay healthy. That's it.
Quote:
who we know will be healthy for training camp:
Isaiah Hodgins
David Sills
Makai Polk
Jaydon Mickens
Kalil Pimpleton
That's it. If you guys think that Hardman or Chark would not be upgrades then you don't know how dire the situation is at WR.
Slayton would be #2 on that list, just sayin...
Exactly the point. If Slayton would be #2 on the list, there has to be a drastic upgrade. Mediocrity should not be the benchmark.
Hooray!
Quote:
In comment 16065776 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
who we know will be healthy for training camp:
Isaiah Hodgins
David Sills
Makai Polk
Jaydon Mickens
Kalil Pimpleton
That's it. If you guys think that Hardman or Chark would not be upgrades then you don't know how dire the situation is at WR.
Slayton would be #2 on that list, just sayin...
I would take Slayton over Hardman or Chark. Knows the playbook and healthier than both of them.
Knows the playbook? Is that the goal now? If so, that is a pretty low bar. Any new player will also learn the playbook.
Quote:
In comment 16065805 Dave said:
Quote:
In comment 16065776 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
who we know will be healthy for training camp:
Isaiah Hodgins
David Sills
Makai Polk
Jaydon Mickens
Kalil Pimpleton
That's it. If you guys think that Hardman or Chark would not be upgrades then you don't know how dire the situation is at WR.
Slayton would be #2 on that list, just sayin...
I would take Slayton over Hardman or Chark. Knows the playbook and healthier than both of them.
Knows the playbook? Is that the goal now? If so, that is a pretty low bar. Any new player will also learn the playbook.
Low bar is the right term for the current group of FA WR’s.
Hodgins is the only healthy NFL caliber receiver they have.
Wan’Dale is coming off an ACL. He may even end up on PUP. He’s also limited to being a slot guy.
Shep is on the vet min. Not even sure if he’s started running yet. Has been injury prone his entire career. Would be surprised if that changes now as he enters his 30’s. I think they brought him back more as an ode to his leadership and work ethic- and to give him a chance to rehab at the facility. Anything they get out of him is a bonus.
Collin Johnson balled out in the spring but blew out his achilles IIRC. While he has some upside, he’s far from being a lock to contribute in a meaningful way. He’s more of a back of the roster guy.
Completely disagree. Obviously, the trenches and line of scrimmage are important, but they have already addressed the line. They have the bodies. They have the depth. Now we have to see if they can develop.
Meanwhile, they have no one healthy who can separate on the outside.
hi, Vin--and you've been doing good work here--no one can disagree your last point, but the hole in your OL argument is that, while yes they've been 'addressed' and have bodies, those bodies were big fails and unless they develop in pretty radical fashion, we'll likely be stuck very much the same on O as in '22 even if the receiver group is upgraded. Aside from his neck injury (could be a big aside), Ezeudu is unproven, unknown. Neal was a huge drag on the passing game and no one knows what his level will be. JF and Glow were mediocre almost the whole season though Glow did improve late. Four big ?? out of 5. Gates is gone; I'd like to see BB at C, unless we draft a guy who can come in and start day 1. I don't think Schoen and BB are 'don't sleep on xxx" guys, so I think they will make a key move or two.
Hodgins is a nice story but he’s not a starting WR. He’s a 3 at best and it showed against good defense. He’s a smart player but he just doesn’t have the talent against good corners. He is a great role player very much like Slayton and when you ask too much they just can’t do it. You’ll love each as a 3 or 4 and be underwhelmed as a 1 or 2.
I think most Giant fans understand how bad they were. A small minority of fans, who i believe were all anti-Jones, seemed to act like the WRs were just fine.
They didn't like the WRs being used as an "excuse" for Jones less than spectacular passing stats. As if WR talent doesn't matter and it's all on Jones.
I suspect we won't hear much from them, as the Giants improve their receivers and Jones passing stats improve significantly.
last year was the first chance he was going to get to be more than a distant 3rd option behind Kelce/Hill, and just as he was getting going with touchdowns in 3 straight games he got hurt.
he's only 25, he's made improvements year over year, his hands are better than slaytons and he replaces all of his speed and then some.
i dont want slayton back, but he's a starter quality player they need to replace, and hardman is an upgrade.
chark is a higher upside version of slayton. dont hate the gamble but also dont love it. he has a lower floor than slayton who is at least somewhat of a known quantity.
Quote:
In comment 16065763 floridagiantsfan said:Quote: Rather spend whatever money we have on the guard from Phily. Lets fortify the line. Use the draft for wr. and center////////
Completely disagree. Obviously, the trenches and line of scrimmage are important, but they have already addressed the line. They have the bodies. They have the depth. Now we have to see if they can develop.
Meanwhile, they have no one healthy who can separate on the outside.
hi, Vin--and you've been doing good work here--no one can disagree your last point, but the hole in your OL argument is that, while yes they've been 'addressed' and have bodies, those bodies were big fails and unless they develop in pretty radical fashion, we'll likely be stuck very much the same on O as in '22 even if the receiver group is upgraded. Aside from his neck injury (could be a big aside), Ezeudu is unproven, unknown. Neal was a huge drag on the passing game and no one knows what his level will be. JF and Glow were mediocre almost the whole season though Glow did improve late. Four big ?? out of 5. Gates is gone; I'd like to see BB at C, unless we draft a guy who can come in and start day 1. I don't think Schoen and BB are 'don't sleep on xxx" guys, so I think they will make a key move or two.
I'd love to get more certainty on the lines, but Neal was drafted 7th overall. He will be given every opportunity to succeed.
Glowinski still has guaranteed money. He started every game last year. He will be the starter this year.
Obviously, this regime likes Ezeudu. He improved throughout the year and even saw time as a starter. He was drafted to start.
Thomas is Thomas.
That leaves center, but I think we all agree that Bredeson or Feliciano will get that spot.
I'm not saying that these players can't be upgraded or play better, but they have to allocate their resources wisely. They have to see what they have with Neal and Ezeudu.
Now if they want to upgrade the center spot, I am all for it, but good or bad, the other 4 positions are already accounted for in 2023.
Kafka knows Hardman from Kansas City. Great return man. Can be used in many schemes. Again, 4.3 speed.
Notice a theme...speed!
Getting Ds to respect the receivers, especially give our OL is not yet able to protect DJ long enough to stay in the pocket, also helps getting SB open on swing passes or through the line on a delayed draw and likely get him 2 yards passed the LOS and let him use his feet and wiggle to get some good yardage….like opponents do to us.
Link - ( New Window )
Kafka knows Hardman from Kansas City. Great return man. Can be used in many schemes. Again, 4.3 speed.
Notice a theme...speed!
Getting Ds to respect the receivers, especially give our OL is not yet able to protect DJ long enough to stay in the pocket, also helps getting SB open on swing passes or through the line on a delayed draw and likely get him 2 yards passed the LOS and let him use his feet and wiggle to get some good yardage….like opponents do to us.
by contrast, hardman was good at all levels. he is often utilized behind the LOS and generated almost 8 yac yards per catch (also ran in 2 tds not in these numbers). that's an element slayton doesn't have. in the middle ranges he was more efficient with fewer drops. and on the deep balls he was also a little more efficient. what's also notable is that even though jones threw fewer INTs than any other QB, he threw 3 when targeting slayton whereas hardman had no ints when he was thrown to.
i dont know what hardman's season would have looked like over a full year instead of a half year, but we've seen enough from slayton that i'd rather roll the dice on a guy who i think just fits the offense better because he can do more things.
Teams will be better prepared for that short passing game this year as Philly was in the playoffs.
Ideally you want to be able to run is the environment above and have the WR arsenal.
What will also help is assembling a D that gives up 18 pts/game and I think this is closer than some with some good moves.
Schoen can go a few different ways and still put a good team on the field imv. Go with BPA and don't overspend in FA.
Be interesting to see how he attacks it.
Hooray!
It's a bad situation to be in. There aren't many guys available that DO score and have been more productive than Slayton while he's so flawed. You can go get an old declining Theilen or make a draft pick trade. Grim.
"Disturbing" is dramatic. Giants fans also have a consistent tendency to define their own players by their flaws rather than what they do well.
Slayton averages 15 yard a catch. He has legitimate NFL downfield speed that has translated in games to big plays. Yeah his hands aren't great. That's why he was a late pick.
Hardman has more reliable hands and...that's it. Despite playing with a Hall of Fame QB on an offense that does video game numbers he is....what?
Can't even get on the field. Even after trading Hill he plays less than half the Chiefs' offensive snaps on a team that throws the ball all over the field.
What love? Some of us think he's a quality WR3-type who has a good physical toolbox. But he clearly has deficiencies that keep him at that WR3 level.
You are 1000% right on all points -- hard to fathom the level Slayton's being overrated here, and I'd be thrilled with Chark/Hardman as upgrades even if they're wr 2/3s.
in 8 games hardman had 6 tds, which is almost the same total slayton has had in the last 3 years combined.
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is quite disturbing. He is sooo overrated.Chark or Hardman would be significant upgrades over Slayton. Agree though none would be a #1. Chark and Hardman are 2/3 wr's.
"Disturbing" is dramatic. Giants fans also have a consistent tendency to define their own players by their flaws rather than what they do well.
Slayton averages 15 yard a catch. He has legitimate NFL downfield speed that has translated in games to big plays. Yeah his hands aren't great. That's why he was a late pick.
Hardman has more reliable hands and...that's it. Despite playing with a Hall of Fame QB on an offense that does video game numbers he is....what?
Can't even get on the field. Even after trading Hill he plays less than half the Chiefs' offensive snaps on a team that throws the ball all over the field.
Let's not pretend that Slayton is faster than Hardman or Chark...
Hardman: 4.33
Chark: 4.34
Slayton: 4.39
in 8 games hardman had 6 tds, which is almost the same total slayton has had in the last 3 years combined.
I love that we now have access to more information these days. 6 touchdowns, sure. Here are the yards on those scoring receptions in 2022.
2 yard pass
3 yard pass
8 yard pass
7 yard pass
In 2022,
8 yard td
8 yard td.
I'm not saying he's a bad player. He got a roster spot on a championship team. Reid knows offense. But I'm not in a hurry to undervalue a speed/big play threat for a part time possession guy.
Isaiah Hodgins
David Sills
Makai Polk
Jaydon Mickens
Kalil Pimpleton
That's it. If you guys think that Hardman or Chark would not be upgrades then you don't know how dire the situation is at WR.
Resign Slayton at this point, if this is what we're looking at.
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They are useful spare parts. But they aren't a way to remake the WR corps.
both are upgrades none the less
I'd prefer any of those 4 to like a Theilen though. This offense was really slow last year, Waller is a start but they need to add juice. Use free agency to address the short term need of speed and the draft to select the most talented WR(s) regardless of skillset.
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In comment 16065805 Dave said:
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In comment 16065776 Jay on the Island said:
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who we know will be healthy for training camp:
Isaiah Hodgins
David Sills
Makai Polk
Jaydon Mickens
Kalil Pimpleton
That's it. If you guys think that Hardman or Chark would not be upgrades then you don't know how dire the situation is at WR.
Slayton would be #2 on that list, just sayin...
I would take Slayton over Hardman or Chark. Knows the playbook and healthier than both of them.
Knows the playbook? Is that the goal now? If so, that is a pretty low bar. Any new player will also learn the playbook.
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that's an "other than that, how was the play mrs lincoln".
in 8 games hardman had 6 tds, which is almost the same total slayton has had in the last 3 years combined.
I love that we now have access to more information these days. 6 touchdowns, sure. Here are the yards on those scoring receptions in 2022.
2 yard pass
3 yard pass
8 yard pass
7 yard pass
In 2022,
8 yard td
8 yard td.
I'm not saying he's a bad player. He got a roster spot on a championship team. Reid knows offense. But I'm not in a hurry to undervalue a speed/big play threat for a part time possession guy.
hardman is just as fast if not faster than slayton, there are just more ways to get his hands in the ball because he's a more versatile player. whether it's runs, screens, or special teams.
as receivers his career ypc (13.8) isn't far off slayton's (15) so calling him a possession receiver isn't that accurate. there isn't a big gap in their explosiveness even though slayton's had higher volume.
they've each hit similar numbers of chunk plays:
slayton 38x 20+, 9x 40+
hardman 28x 20+, 9x 40+
hardman has 3 additional runs 20+. and 2 return tds.
last year was the first chance he was going to get to be more than a distant 3rd option behind Kelce/Hill, and just as he was getting going with touchdowns in 3 straight games he got hurt.
he's only 25, he's made improvements year over year, his hands are better than slaytons and he replaces all of his speed and then some.
i dont want slayton back, but he's a starter quality player they need to replace, and hardman is an upgrade.
chark is a higher upside version of slayton. dont hate the gamble but also dont love it. he has a lower floor than slayton who is at least somewhat of a known quantity.
If you want guys that are upgrades over slayton than pick guys who are actually upgrades over slayton. Slayton has been healthier, and more productive, faster, and more consistent than either of these 2 or anyone on the roster.
Hodgins had a nice 2 months out of his career.none of these guys beats slaytons production.1 guy has 1 more careeer touchdown. all ahve less yards, and less yds per attempt.
Gimme Slayton over these guys. If his drops go down, it isn't even close who is the better reciever.
in 8 games hardman had 6 tds, which is almost the same total slayton has had in the last 3 years combined.
Well, Hardman did have Patrick Lavon Mahomes, II throwing to him.
Waller is your mismatch in the passing game.
A group of Chark/Hardman, Hodgins, WanDale and a high draft pick is a major improvement from last season.
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last year he played significant snaps in 8 games and had 6 touchdowns. 2 were rushing touchdowns, 4 were receiving.
last year was the first chance he was going to get to be more than a distant 3rd option behind Kelce/Hill, and just as he was getting going with touchdowns in 3 straight games he got hurt.
he's only 25, he's made improvements year over year, his hands are better than slaytons and he replaces all of his speed and then some.
i dont want slayton back, but he's a starter quality player they need to replace, and hardman is an upgrade.
chark is a higher upside version of slayton. dont hate the gamble but also dont love it. he has a lower floor than slayton who is at least somewhat of a known quantity.
Harman is not in fact an upgrade over Slayton. His production doesn't say so.\
If you want guys that are upgrades over slayton than pick guys who are actually upgrades over slayton. Slayton has been healthier, and more productive, faster, and more consistent than either of these 2 or anyone on the roster.
Hodgins had a nice 2 months out of his career.none of these guys beats slaytons production.1 guy has 1 more careeer touchdown. all ahve less yards, and less yds per attempt.
Gimme Slayton over these guys. If his drops go down, it isn't even close who is the better reciever.
100% agree with this.
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that's an "other than that, how was the play mrs lincoln".
in 8 games hardman had 6 tds, which is almost the same total slayton has had in the last 3 years combined.
Well, Hardman did have Patrick Lavon Mahomes, II throwing to him.
Mvs and jjss each had seasons around their lowest td totals as pros. Mahomes doesn’t instantly mean players stats get inflated. Tyreek went to Miami and had his best year with Tua and a bunch of backups.
There is a reason hardman is projected to make a lot more than slayton in pretty much all the salary projections.
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In comment 16065920 Eric on Li said:
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that's an "other than that, how was the play mrs lincoln".
in 8 games hardman had 6 tds, which is almost the same total slayton has had in the last 3 years combined.
I love that we now have access to more information these days. 6 touchdowns, sure. Here are the yards on those scoring receptions in 2022.
2 yard pass
3 yard pass
8 yard pass
7 yard pass
In 2022,
8 yard td
8 yard td.
I'm not saying he's a bad player. He got a roster spot on a championship team. Reid knows offense. But I'm not in a hurry to undervalue a speed/big play threat for a part time possession guy.
hardman is just as fast if not faster than slayton, there are just more ways to get his hands in the ball because he's a more versatile player. whether it's runs, screens, or special teams.
as receivers his career ypc (13.8) isn't far off slayton's (15) so calling him a possession receiver isn't that accurate. there isn't a big gap in their explosiveness even though slayton's had higher volume.
they've each hit similar numbers of chunk plays:
slayton 38x 20+, 9x 40+
hardman 28x 20+, 9x 40+
hardman has 3 additional runs 20+. and 2 return tds.
The career YPC is 13.8. The last two years it's less than 11. Slayton has consistently been better.
Combine speed notwithstanding, does that *really* show up in games? The production doesn't really support it, nor does what the Chiefs actively do personnel-wise.
The speed got him drafted, and since then he hasn't really done anything with it since the rookie year and the Chiefs have been adding WRs left and right. His breakout year was supposed to come once the chiefs parted ways with Watkins, and it didn't. Then Hill left, and there were opportunities, and it didn't happen. Since then the Chiefs added Schuster, drafted Moore in round 2, added Valdez-Scantling and they're letting Hardman hit Free Agency in a down year for pass catchers. So they're not happy with their WRs either.
On top of that, he's small, which everyone already doesn't like about WRs for the Giants. So what's the trade off? Get smaller, less proven despite the physical gifts, but better hands. The real benefit to fans is simply that he's Not Slayton, which I suspect is the main focus.
Chris Moore = Vet Min.
Deandre Carter = 2M
We know what Hardman is at this point.
Mvs and jjss each had seasons around their lowest td totals as pros. Mahomes doesn’t instantly mean players stats get inflated. Tyreek went to Miami and had his best year with Tua and a bunch of backups.
There is a reason hardman is projected to make a lot more than slayton in pretty much all the salary projections.
I'm not saying Slayton is > Hardman. I'm suggesting you can't dismiss the Mahomes factor. Toney is looking more and more interesting now that he's in the same huddle as Mahomes.
Schuster found a second career wind in KC. And MVS had a career high in catches.
And you may want to re-think that comment about Hill having his best year in Miami. There were years in KC where Hill was catching 15 TD passes.
Chris Moore = Vet Min.
Deandre Carter = 2M
Mack Hollins is interesting at a low price point. He basically outplayed Renfrow in McDaniels offense.
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Mvs and jjss each had seasons around their lowest td totals as pros. Mahomes doesn’t instantly mean players stats get inflated. Tyreek went to Miami and had his best year with Tua and a bunch of backups.
There is a reason hardman is projected to make a lot more than slayton in pretty much all the salary projections.
I'm not saying Slayton is > Hardman. I'm suggesting you can't dismiss the Mahomes factor. Toney is looking more and more interesting now that he's in the same huddle as Mahomes.
Schuster found a second career wind in KC. And MVS had a career high in catches.
And you may want to re-think that comment about Hill having his best year in Miami. There were years in KC where Hill was catching 15 TD passes.
I think Eric may be Hardman’s agent lol (no offense Eric in LI, just messing around). We all have different ideas on the WR situation, hopefully Schoen makes the right call(s).
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Mvs and jjss each had seasons around their lowest td totals as pros. Mahomes doesn’t instantly mean players stats get inflated. Tyreek went to Miami and had his best year with Tua and a bunch of backups.
There is a reason hardman is projected to make a lot more than slayton in pretty much all the salary projections.
I'm not saying Slayton is > Hardman. I'm suggesting you can't dismiss the Mahomes factor. Toney is looking more and more interesting now that he's in the same huddle as Mahomes.
Schuster found a second career wind in KC. And MVS had a career high in catches.
And you may want to re-think that comment about Hill having his best year in Miami. There were years in KC where Hill was catching 15 TD passes.
Tryeek was an mvp candidate on pace to break Calvin Johnson’s record before tua got hurt so all good on the rethink.
Toney barely played offense in kc and didn’t have a single game with mahomes half as good as the Dallas game last year - and most of that was with glennon. His big play in the sb was a punt return.
The career YPC is 13.8. The last two years it's less than 11. Slayton has consistently been better.
Combine speed notwithstanding, does that *really* show up in games? The production doesn't really support it, nor does what the Chiefs actively do personnel-wise.
The speed got him drafted, and since then he hasn't really done anything with it since the rookie year and the Chiefs have been adding WRs left and right. His breakout year was supposed to come once the chiefs parted ways with Watkins, and it didn't. Then Hill left, and there were opportunities, and it didn't happen. Since then the Chiefs added Schuster, drafted Moore in round 2, added Valdez-Scantling and they're letting Hardman hit Free Agency in a down year for pass catchers. So they're not happy with their WRs either.
On top of that, he's small, which everyone already doesn't like about WRs for the Giants. So what's the trade off? Get smaller, less proven despite the physical gifts, but better hands. The real benefit to fans is simply that he's Not Slayton, which I suspect is the main focus.
He was playing really well this year before he got hurt. To say his speed doesn’t show up on tape or that he wasn’t productive this past year just isn’t true. What is true is that it took him time to develop. Anyone who has watched him over the past few years can tell you that he’s a much better football player now than he was when he came into the league.
We don’t know yet if the Chiefs are letting him walk. They also have cap issues and other holes to fill. This team just let Tyreek Hill go. Does that mean Tyreek Hill isn’t good? They didn’t miss a beat either so it’s not like they have reason to fear losing a good WR.
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In comment 16065984 Eric on Li said:
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Mvs and jjss each had seasons around their lowest td totals as pros. Mahomes doesn’t instantly mean players stats get inflated. Tyreek went to Miami and had his best year with Tua and a bunch of backups.
There is a reason hardman is projected to make a lot more than slayton in pretty much all the salary projections.
I'm not saying Slayton is > Hardman. I'm suggesting you can't dismiss the Mahomes factor. Toney is looking more and more interesting now that he's in the same huddle as Mahomes.
Schuster found a second career wind in KC. And MVS had a career high in catches.
And you may want to re-think that comment about Hill having his best year in Miami. There were years in KC where Hill was catching 15 TD passes.
I think Eric may be Hardman’s agent lol (no offense Eric in LI, just messing around). We all have different ideas on the WR situation, hopefully Schoen makes the right call(s).
The way the market has developed and with Waller added he makes the most sense. That wasn’t as much the case before yesterday. And before jakobi meyers deal came in lower than expected.
Chris Moore = Vet Min.
Deandre Carter = 2M
Hollins is an interesting name too. I'm not sure he's at any different of a price point than the guys we're discussing now though. I'm out on Deandre Carter, he's a slot guy and we've got that covered between Wan'Dale/Shep and what's likely available in the draft. I'd go for Berrios if we were to target a slot.
We have 4 picks on day 1 and 2. After that you are looking at long shots. We cannot draft 3 WRs across day 1 and 2. A WR or two needs to be signed. None of these guys are getting big long term dollars, it’ll be low risk.
NYG needs bodies...and with the holes on the roster i think 2 WRs in the draft are possible, but not 3.
Bingo!
Slayton has his valleys for sure, but he would be the only receiver capable of making explosive chunk plays right now. If I had to pick to between the two, I'm taking Slayton.
Interesting stat: in spite of the drops Slayton had a career high 64.8% catch percentage last year. Pretty good for a 15 YPC guy. Chark never had more than 61.9% (his pro bowl year) and has been pretty awful in the three years since. Registered 5 drops to Slayton's 7 in 2022.
Will Shep even make it out of camp and onto the team?
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Well Shep is basically on an incentivized vet min non-guaranteed contract while I assume Slayton will get some money and guarantees. In a vacuum it's a slamdunk Slayton over Shep this year for sure but there's different commitments required.
Will Shep even make it out of camp and onto the team?
Probably not. If he does, it's if he's healthy and Wan'Dale is on the PUP to start. Hard to say at this point but he's very far from a lock.
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In comment 16066658 AcesUp said:
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Well Shep is basically on an incentivized vet min non-guaranteed contract while I assume Slayton will get some money and guarantees. In a vacuum it's a slamdunk Slayton over Shep this year for sure but there's different commitments required.
Will Shep even make it out of camp and onto the team?
Probably not. If he does, it's if he's healthy and Wan'Dale is on the PUP to start. Hard to say at this point but he's very far from a lock.
True
the key thing with slayton is that his weakness, drops, has been an issue that has plagued him going back to college. it's why he fell to the 6th round in the first place. his final year at auburn he had 8 drops and 35 catches in 72 targets. for every 4 catches he made he had 1 drop. that is not sustainable.
this past year he had 8 drops against 51 catches in 83 targets.
in 2021 he had 6 drops against 26 catches in 55 targets.
he has literally had the worst drop% in football each of the last 2 years.
it's hard to see any hope slayton can correct his drop issues because it's pretty consistently who he has been dating back to college. and because it literally showed up at the most important time last year in the WC game.
In the six games he saw five or more targets last season, the former LSU standout averaged nearly 70 yards per game with three total TDs for the #Lions. Really good player who’s finally healthy as well.”
Whoops