“I've heard some buzz today about the #Giants connected to D.J. Chark and Mecole Hardman. We'll see if that has any legs. You'd expect them to explore all options on the market.”
Dude, are you on drugs we need 6-8 WR’s. We have 2-1/2, use your head.
Pls stop. You’re wrong. moving on
No one is wrong, there are multiple ways to address the issue. I prefer to either trade (if the price is right) or build through the draft. You would rather take a gamble on guys with “potential” that their original teams passed on re-signing. It could go well or it could completely bust. The difference is drafted players are much cheaper. I’d rather draft three WR’s than draft two and sign Hardman or Chark.
Rather spend whatever money we have on the guard from Phily. Lets fortify the line. Use the draft for wr. and center
Completely disagree. Obviously, the trenches and line of scrimmage are important, but they have already addressed the line. They have the bodies. They have the depth. Now we have to see if they can develop.
Meanwhile, they have no one healthy who can separate on the outside.
to sign a receiver or two who most Giants fans will bitch about signing, but they will be infinitely better than most of the guys currently under contract.
As a guy as they see as a true #1
. Hardman aint that, Chark ain't that.
Juedy, Hopkins, Pittman are that.
You're missing the point. The Giants don't just need a #1 WR they need to add up to 3 to the active roster.
True It is possible one of these guys come in addition to Jeudy,Hopkins etc. However defintiely not instead of them. Also one of those 3 you mention also probably come from the top 2 rounds of the draft.
to sign a receiver or two who most Giants fans will bitch about signing, but they will be infinitely better than most of the guys currently under contract.
The fans will bitch about Chark and/or Hardman as well. They have major warts. They aren't infinitely better than anybody. I'm not saying it would be bad to add them. They are marginal #3 WRs. So best to temper expectations.
Sure they would. They are legit NFL receivers. The guys who are under contract on our roster are mostly not. We have Hodgins, a draft pick coming off an ACL, and a veteran who can't stay healthy. That's it.
when healthy. The “when healthy” is a concern though. He’s missed chunks of the last 3 seasons. Between him, Waller and Shep, our receivers will be a MASH unit.
Hodgins is the only healthy NFL caliber receiver they have.
Wan’Dale is coming off an ACL. He may even end up on PUP. He’s also limited to being a slot guy.
Shep is on the vet min. Not even sure if he’s started running yet. Has been injury prone his entire career. Would be surprised if that changes now as he enters his 30’s. I think they brought him back more as an ode to his leadership and work ethic- and to give him a chance to rehab at the facility. Anything they get out of him is a bonus.
Collin Johnson balled out in the spring but blew out his achilles IIRC. While he has some upside, he’s far from being a lock to contribute in a meaningful way. He’s more of a back of the roster guy.
In comment 16065763 floridagiantsfan said:Quote: Rather spend whatever money we have on the guard from Phily. Lets fortify the line. Use the draft for wr. and center////////
Completely disagree. Obviously, the trenches and line of scrimmage are important, but they have already addressed the line. They have the bodies. They have the depth. Now we have to see if they can develop.
Meanwhile, they have no one healthy who can separate on the outside.
hi, Vin--and you've been doing good work here--no one can disagree your last point, but the hole in your OL argument is that, while yes they've been 'addressed' and have bodies, those bodies were big fails and unless they develop in pretty radical fashion, we'll likely be stuck very much the same on O as in '22 even if the receiver group is upgraded. Aside from his neck injury (could be a big aside), Ezeudu is unproven, unknown. Neal was a huge drag on the passing game and no one knows what his level will be. JF and Glow were mediocre almost the whole season though Glow did improve late. Four big ?? out of 5. Gates is gone; I'd like to see BB at C, unless we draft a guy who can come in and start day 1. I don't think Schoen and BB are 'don't sleep on xxx" guys, so I think they will make a key move or two.
So many people are counting on Robinson next season
The guy tore his ACL and his game is his shiftiness and agility to get open. Can he come back next season yes but it’s not that likely. Look at OBJ, he missed the whole season. We need 2 FA just to show the young guys how to be an NFL WR.
Hodgins is a nice story but he’s not a starting WR. He’s a 3 at best and it showed against good defense. He’s a smart player but he just doesn’t have the talent against good corners. He is a great role player very much like Slayton and when you ask too much they just can’t do it. You’ll love each as a 3 or 4 and be underwhelmed as a 1 or 2.
to add a really good WR this off season. I still like to gamble on Hopkins if he’s willing to re work his deal. You got a 40M QB now, expectations start to get higher after that
don't get the sense that Giants fans realize how bad our receivers were last year. Look at the depth chart right now and who is under contract.
I think most Giant fans understand how bad they were. A small minority of fans, who i believe were all anti-Jones, seemed to act like the WRs were just fine.
They didn't like the WRs being used as an "excuse" for Jones less than spectacular passing stats. As if WR talent doesn't matter and it's all on Jones.
I suspect we won't hear much from them, as the Giants improve their receivers and Jones passing stats improve significantly.
I know ive been a broken record but hardman is a very good fit
last year he played significant snaps in 8 games and had 6 touchdowns. 2 were rushing touchdowns, 4 were receiving.
last year was the first chance he was going to get to be more than a distant 3rd option behind Kelce/Hill, and just as he was getting going with touchdowns in 3 straight games he got hurt.
he's only 25, he's made improvements year over year, his hands are better than slaytons and he replaces all of his speed and then some.
i dont want slayton back, but he's a starter quality player they need to replace, and hardman is an upgrade.
chark is a higher upside version of slayton. dont hate the gamble but also dont love it. he has a lower floor than slayton who is at least somewhat of a known quantity.
Which is doable given the picks they have and they all don’t need to be early picks. Makes way more sense than playing with the cap to overspend on trash veterans. Hardman has been a major disappointment since day one.
In comment 16065763 floridagiantsfan said:Quote: Rather spend whatever money we have on the guard from Phily. Lets fortify the line. Use the draft for wr. and center////////
Completely disagree. Obviously, the trenches and line of scrimmage are important, but they have already addressed the line. They have the bodies. They have the depth. Now we have to see if they can develop.
Meanwhile, they have no one healthy who can separate on the outside.
hi, Vin--and you've been doing good work here--no one can disagree your last point, but the hole in your OL argument is that, while yes they've been 'addressed' and have bodies, those bodies were big fails and unless they develop in pretty radical fashion, we'll likely be stuck very much the same on O as in '22 even if the receiver group is upgraded. Aside from his neck injury (could be a big aside), Ezeudu is unproven, unknown. Neal was a huge drag on the passing game and no one knows what his level will be. JF and Glow were mediocre almost the whole season though Glow did improve late. Four big ?? out of 5. Gates is gone; I'd like to see BB at C, unless we draft a guy who can come in and start day 1. I don't think Schoen and BB are 'don't sleep on xxx" guys, so I think they will make a key move or two.
I'd love to get more certainty on the lines, but Neal was drafted 7th overall. He will be given every opportunity to succeed.
Glowinski still has guaranteed money. He started every game last year. He will be the starter this year.
Obviously, this regime likes Ezeudu. He improved throughout the year and even saw time as a starter. He was drafted to start.
Thomas is Thomas.
That leaves center, but I think we all agree that Bredeson or Feliciano will get that spot.
I'm not saying that these players can't be upgraded or play better, but they have to allocate their resources wisely. They have to see what they have with Neal and Ezeudu.
Now if they want to upgrade the center spot, I am all for it, but good or bad, the other 4 positions are already accounted for in 2023.
6'4" and 4.3 speed. Had a 1000-yard receiving season in Jacksonville. If he can stay healthy...
Kafka knows Hardman from Kansas City. Great return man. Can be used in many schemes. Again, 4.3 speed.
Notice a theme...speed!
Getting Ds to respect the receivers, especially give our OL is not yet able to protect DJ long enough to stay in the pocket, also helps getting SB open on swing passes or through the line on a delayed draw and likely get him 2 yards passed the LOS and let him use his feet and wiggle to get some good yardage….like opponents do to us.
Mentioned this a bit earlier in your Thielen thread.. I know NYG called to check numbers but not sure how far that conversation went. Link - ( New Window )
6'4" and 4.3 speed. Had a 1000-yard receiving season in Jacksonville. If he can stay healthy...
Kafka knows Hardman from Kansas City. Great return man. Can be used in many schemes. Again, 4.3 speed.
Notice a theme...speed!
Getting Ds to respect the receivers, especially give our OL is not yet able to protect DJ long enough to stay in the pocket, also helps getting SB open on swing passes or through the line on a delayed draw and likely get him 2 yards passed the LOS and let him use his feet and wiggle to get some good yardage….like opponents do to us.
from pff - comparison hardman vs slayton last year by target depth
here's slayton. you can see he wasn't particularly good deep and he was mostly utilized in the 0-9 yard range, but his efficiency was very good intermediate in the 10-19 yard range and that's where he had his most yac yards. he is rarely used behind the LOS. i think these numbers pretty accurately reflect his strengths from last year where he made improvements on those mid-range crossing routes but wasnt really good anywhere else.
by contrast, hardman was good at all levels. he is often utilized behind the LOS and generated almost 8 yac yards per catch (also ran in 2 tds not in these numbers). that's an element slayton doesn't have. in the middle ranges he was more efficient with fewer drops. and on the deep balls he was also a little more efficient. what's also notable is that even though jones threw fewer INTs than any other QB, he threw 3 when targeting slayton whereas hardman had no ints when he was thrown to.
i dont know what hardman's season would have looked like over a full year instead of a half year, but we've seen enough from slayton that i'd rather roll the dice on a guy who i think just fits the offense better because he can do more things.
will help the whole pass operation. Giants struggled significantly here against division teams and others with those challenging fronts. One of the QB's best friends is being ahead of the chains keeping run/pass option open. Helps the WR/TE's as well.
Teams will be better prepared for that short passing game this year as Philly was in the playoffs.
Ideally you want to be able to run is the environment above and have the WR arsenal.
What will also help is assembling a D that gives up 18 pts/game and I think this is closer than some with some good moves.
Schoen can go a few different ways and still put a good team on the field imv. Go with BPA and don't overspend in FA.
It's a bad situation to be in. There aren't many guys available that DO score and have been more productive than Slayton while he's so flawed. You can go get an old declining Theilen or make a draft pick trade. Grim.
is quite disturbing. He is sooo overrated.Chark or Hardman would be significant upgrades over Slayton. Agree though none would be a #1. Chark and Hardman are 2/3 wr's.
is quite disturbing. He is sooo overrated.Chark or Hardman would be significant upgrades over Slayton. Agree though none would be a #1. Chark and Hardman are 2/3 wr's.
"Disturbing" is dramatic. Giants fans also have a consistent tendency to define their own players by their flaws rather than what they do well.
Slayton averages 15 yard a catch. He has legitimate NFL downfield speed that has translated in games to big plays. Yeah his hands aren't great. That's why he was a late pick.
Hardman has more reliable hands and...that's it. Despite playing with a Hall of Fame QB on an offense that does video game numbers he is....what?
Can't even get on the field. Even after trading Hill he plays less than half the Chiefs' offensive snaps on a team that throws the ball all over the field.
is quite disturbing. He is sooo overrated.Chark or Hardman would be significant upgrades over Slayton. Agree though none would be a #1. Chark and Hardman are 2/3 wr's.
What love? Some of us think he's a quality WR3-type who has a good physical toolbox. But he clearly has deficiencies that keep him at that WR3 level.
is quite disturbing. He is sooo overrated.Chark or Hardman would be significant upgrades over Slayton. Agree though none would be a #1. Chark and Hardman are 2/3 wr's.
You are 1000% right on all points -- hard to fathom the level Slayton's being overrated here, and I'd be thrilled with Chark/Hardman as upgrades even if they're wr 2/3s.
more reliable hands when your job is to catch is kind of important
is quite disturbing. He is sooo overrated.Chark or Hardman would be significant upgrades over Slayton. Agree though none would be a #1. Chark and Hardman are 2/3 wr's.
"Disturbing" is dramatic. Giants fans also have a consistent tendency to define their own players by their flaws rather than what they do well.
Slayton averages 15 yard a catch. He has legitimate NFL downfield speed that has translated in games to big plays. Yeah his hands aren't great. That's why he was a late pick.
Hardman has more reliable hands and...that's it. Despite playing with a Hall of Fame QB on an offense that does video game numbers he is....what?
Can't even get on the field. Even after trading Hill he plays less than half the Chiefs' offensive snaps on a team that throws the ball all over the field.
Let's not pretend that Slayton is faster than Hardman or Chark...
Hardman: 4.33
Chark: 4.34
Slayton: 4.39
RE: more reliable hands when your job is to catch is kind of important
that's an "other than that, how was the play mrs lincoln".
in 8 games hardman had 6 tds, which is almost the same total slayton has had in the last 3 years combined.
I love that we now have access to more information these days. 6 touchdowns, sure. Here are the yards on those scoring receptions in 2022.
2 yard pass
3 yard pass
8 yard pass
7 yard pass
In 2022,
8 yard td
8 yard td.
I'm not saying he's a bad player. He got a roster spot on a championship team. Reid knows offense. But I'm not in a hurry to undervalue a speed/big play threat for a part time possession guy.
They are useful spare parts. But they aren't a way to remake the WR corps.
both are upgrades none the less
Not according to their stats they aren't. I'd rather have slayton than either of these 2. The ONLY reason you would want either of these 2 scrubs is because they are cheaper than slayton. He has more speed, health, and production, last year, and career wise than either of these 2, that's just a fact, and if you think you'd wind up complaining less having these guys on the roster than slayton you're mistaken. He is the best WR of the 3, and will likely be paid as such, bottom line.
Are fine targets for the Giants. I slightly lean towards Chark and Hardman simply for the change and potential ceilings but Slayton isn't total trash. Hardman gives you some special teams ability and designed redzone touch versatility. Chark and Slayton the better outside vertical threats. All 3 can run but Hardman has another gear and Chark more size. It largely comes down to price for me between the 3. I don't think Agholar is the worst option either if he's at a further discount.
I'd prefer any of those 4 to like a Theilen though. This offense was really slow last year, Waller is a start but they need to add juice. Use free agency to address the short term need of speed and the draft to select the most talented WR(s) regardless of skillset.
who we know will be healthy for training camp:
Isaiah Hodgins
David Sills
Makai Polk
Jaydon Mickens
Kalil Pimpleton
That's it. If you guys think that Hardman or Chark would not be upgrades then you don't know how dire the situation is at WR.
Slayton would be #2 on that list, just sayin...
I would take Slayton over Hardman or Chark. Knows the playbook and healthier than both of them.
Knows the playbook? Is that the goal now? If so, that is a pretty low bar. Any new player will also learn the playbook.
Well, you COULD add that he has more production, is faster and healthier than any of the guys on the list, or the 2 clowns under consideration? I mean, that is, if we are considering things like, you know, facts?
RE: RE: more reliable hands when your job is to catch is kind of important
that's an "other than that, how was the play mrs lincoln".
in 8 games hardman had 6 tds, which is almost the same total slayton has had in the last 3 years combined.
I love that we now have access to more information these days. 6 touchdowns, sure. Here are the yards on those scoring receptions in 2022.
2 yard pass
3 yard pass
8 yard pass
7 yard pass
In 2022,
8 yard td
8 yard td.
I'm not saying he's a bad player. He got a roster spot on a championship team. Reid knows offense. But I'm not in a hurry to undervalue a speed/big play threat for a part time possession guy.
hardman is just as fast if not faster than slayton, there are just more ways to get his hands in the ball because he's a more versatile player. whether it's runs, screens, or special teams.
as receivers his career ypc (13.8) isn't far off slayton's (15) so calling him a possession receiver isn't that accurate. there isn't a big gap in their explosiveness even though slayton's had higher volume.
they've each hit similar numbers of chunk plays:
slayton 38x 20+, 9x 40+
hardman 28x 20+, 9x 40+
hardman has 3 additional runs 20+. and 2 return tds.
last year he played significant snaps in 8 games and had 6 touchdowns. 2 were rushing touchdowns, 4 were receiving.
last year was the first chance he was going to get to be more than a distant 3rd option behind Kelce/Hill, and just as he was getting going with touchdowns in 3 straight games he got hurt.
he's only 25, he's made improvements year over year, his hands are better than slaytons and he replaces all of his speed and then some.
i dont want slayton back, but he's a starter quality player they need to replace, and hardman is an upgrade.
chark is a higher upside version of slayton. dont hate the gamble but also dont love it. he has a lower floor than slayton who is at least somewhat of a known quantity.
Harman is not in fact an upgrade over Slayton. His production doesn't say so.\
If you want guys that are upgrades over slayton than pick guys who are actually upgrades over slayton. Slayton has been healthier, and more productive, faster, and more consistent than either of these 2 or anyone on the roster.
Hodgins had a nice 2 months out of his career.none of these guys beats slaytons production.1 guy has 1 more careeer touchdown. all ahve less yards, and less yds per attempt.
Gimme Slayton over these guys. If his drops go down, it isn't even close who is the better reciever.
RE: more reliable hands when your job is to catch is kind of important
Stats only tell stories skin deep. If you think Chark and Hardman are not upgrades over Slayton then you are lost. Stop googling statistics and actually watch these players in games and in different offensive SYSTEMS. Look at the nuances like running rounded routes(Slayton), cutting routes short(Slayton), just standing around when your QB is scrambling instead of coming back to help your QB(Slayton), drops (Slayton)....
At that right price what is so bad about Chark or Hardman?
last year he played significant snaps in 8 games and had 6 touchdowns. 2 were rushing touchdowns, 4 were receiving.
last year was the first chance he was going to get to be more than a distant 3rd option behind Kelce/Hill, and just as he was getting going with touchdowns in 3 straight games he got hurt.
he's only 25, he's made improvements year over year, his hands are better than slaytons and he replaces all of his speed and then some.
i dont want slayton back, but he's a starter quality player they need to replace, and hardman is an upgrade.
chark is a higher upside version of slayton. dont hate the gamble but also dont love it. he has a lower floor than slayton who is at least somewhat of a known quantity.
Harman is not in fact an upgrade over Slayton. His production doesn't say so.\
If you want guys that are upgrades over slayton than pick guys who are actually upgrades over slayton. Slayton has been healthier, and more productive, faster, and more consistent than either of these 2 or anyone on the roster.
Hodgins had a nice 2 months out of his career.none of these guys beats slaytons production.1 guy has 1 more careeer touchdown. all ahve less yards, and less yds per attempt.
Gimme Slayton over these guys. If his drops go down, it isn't even close who is the better reciever.
Quote:
In comment 16065730 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
Chark hasn’t been good in like three years.
Dude, are you on drugs we need 6-8 WR’s. We have 2-1/2, use your head.
Pls stop. You’re wrong. moving on
No one is wrong, there are multiple ways to address the issue. I prefer to either trade (if the price is right) or build through the draft. You would rather take a gamble on guys with “potential” that their original teams passed on re-signing. It could go well or it could completely bust. The difference is drafted players are much cheaper. I’d rather draft three WR’s than draft two and sign Hardman or Chark.
Completely disagree. Obviously, the trenches and line of scrimmage are important, but they have already addressed the line. They have the bodies. They have the depth. Now we have to see if they can develop.
Meanwhile, they have no one healthy who can separate on the outside.
Agreed 💯
Isaiah Hodgins
David Sills
Makai Polk
Jaydon Mickens
Kalil Pimpleton
That's it. If you guys think that Hardman or Chark would not be upgrades then you don't know how dire the situation is at WR.
Slayton would be #2 on that list, just sayin...
Quote:
As a guy as they see as a true #1
. Hardman aint that, Chark ain't that.
Juedy, Hopkins, Pittman are that.
You're missing the point. The Giants don't just need a #1 WR they need to add up to 3 to the active roster.
True It is possible one of these guys come in addition to Jeudy,Hopkins etc. However defintiely not instead of them. Also one of those 3 you mention also probably come from the top 2 rounds of the draft.
Quote:
who we know will be healthy for training camp:
Isaiah Hodgins
David Sills
Makai Polk
Jaydon Mickens
Kalil Pimpleton
That's it. If you guys think that Hardman or Chark would not be upgrades then you don't know how dire the situation is at WR.
Slayton would be #2 on that list, just sayin...
I would take Slayton over Hardman or Chark. Knows the playbook and healthier than both of them.
Too busy whining about Jones to notice. It’s been this way since Beckham left. They tried with Golladay and Toney, it blew up in their face.
Quote:
to sign a receiver or two who most Giants fans will bitch about signing, but they will be infinitely better than most of the guys currently under contract.
The fans will bitch about Chark and/or Hardman as well. They have major warts. They aren't infinitely better than anybody. I'm not saying it would be bad to add them. They are marginal #3 WRs. So best to temper expectations.
Sure they would. They are legit NFL receivers. The guys who are under contract on our roster are mostly not. We have Hodgins, a draft pick coming off an ACL, and a veteran who can't stay healthy. That's it.
Quote:
who we know will be healthy for training camp:
Isaiah Hodgins
David Sills
Makai Polk
Jaydon Mickens
Kalil Pimpleton
That's it. If you guys think that Hardman or Chark would not be upgrades then you don't know how dire the situation is at WR.
Slayton would be #2 on that list, just sayin...
Exactly the point. If Slayton would be #2 on the list, there has to be a drastic upgrade. Mediocrity should not be the benchmark.
Hooray!
Quote:
In comment 16065776 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
who we know will be healthy for training camp:
Isaiah Hodgins
David Sills
Makai Polk
Jaydon Mickens
Kalil Pimpleton
That's it. If you guys think that Hardman or Chark would not be upgrades then you don't know how dire the situation is at WR.
Slayton would be #2 on that list, just sayin...
I would take Slayton over Hardman or Chark. Knows the playbook and healthier than both of them.
Knows the playbook? Is that the goal now? If so, that is a pretty low bar. Any new player will also learn the playbook.
Quote:
In comment 16065805 Dave said:
Quote:
In comment 16065776 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
who we know will be healthy for training camp:
Isaiah Hodgins
David Sills
Makai Polk
Jaydon Mickens
Kalil Pimpleton
That's it. If you guys think that Hardman or Chark would not be upgrades then you don't know how dire the situation is at WR.
Slayton would be #2 on that list, just sayin...
I would take Slayton over Hardman or Chark. Knows the playbook and healthier than both of them.
Knows the playbook? Is that the goal now? If so, that is a pretty low bar. Any new player will also learn the playbook.
Low bar is the right term for the current group of FA WR’s.
Hodgins is the only healthy NFL caliber receiver they have.
Wan’Dale is coming off an ACL. He may even end up on PUP. He’s also limited to being a slot guy.
Shep is on the vet min. Not even sure if he’s started running yet. Has been injury prone his entire career. Would be surprised if that changes now as he enters his 30’s. I think they brought him back more as an ode to his leadership and work ethic- and to give him a chance to rehab at the facility. Anything they get out of him is a bonus.
Collin Johnson balled out in the spring but blew out his achilles IIRC. While he has some upside, he’s far from being a lock to contribute in a meaningful way. He’s more of a back of the roster guy.
Completely disagree. Obviously, the trenches and line of scrimmage are important, but they have already addressed the line. They have the bodies. They have the depth. Now we have to see if they can develop.
Meanwhile, they have no one healthy who can separate on the outside.
hi, Vin--and you've been doing good work here--no one can disagree your last point, but the hole in your OL argument is that, while yes they've been 'addressed' and have bodies, those bodies were big fails and unless they develop in pretty radical fashion, we'll likely be stuck very much the same on O as in '22 even if the receiver group is upgraded. Aside from his neck injury (could be a big aside), Ezeudu is unproven, unknown. Neal was a huge drag on the passing game and no one knows what his level will be. JF and Glow were mediocre almost the whole season though Glow did improve late. Four big ?? out of 5. Gates is gone; I'd like to see BB at C, unless we draft a guy who can come in and start day 1. I don't think Schoen and BB are 'don't sleep on xxx" guys, so I think they will make a key move or two.
Hodgins is a nice story but he’s not a starting WR. He’s a 3 at best and it showed against good defense. He’s a smart player but he just doesn’t have the talent against good corners. He is a great role player very much like Slayton and when you ask too much they just can’t do it. You’ll love each as a 3 or 4 and be underwhelmed as a 1 or 2.
I think most Giant fans understand how bad they were. A small minority of fans, who i believe were all anti-Jones, seemed to act like the WRs were just fine.
They didn't like the WRs being used as an "excuse" for Jones less than spectacular passing stats. As if WR talent doesn't matter and it's all on Jones.
I suspect we won't hear much from them, as the Giants improve their receivers and Jones passing stats improve significantly.
last year was the first chance he was going to get to be more than a distant 3rd option behind Kelce/Hill, and just as he was getting going with touchdowns in 3 straight games he got hurt.
he's only 25, he's made improvements year over year, his hands are better than slaytons and he replaces all of his speed and then some.
i dont want slayton back, but he's a starter quality player they need to replace, and hardman is an upgrade.
chark is a higher upside version of slayton. dont hate the gamble but also dont love it. he has a lower floor than slayton who is at least somewhat of a known quantity.
Quote:
In comment 16065763 floridagiantsfan said:Quote: Rather spend whatever money we have on the guard from Phily. Lets fortify the line. Use the draft for wr. and center////////
Completely disagree. Obviously, the trenches and line of scrimmage are important, but they have already addressed the line. They have the bodies. They have the depth. Now we have to see if they can develop.
Meanwhile, they have no one healthy who can separate on the outside.
hi, Vin--and you've been doing good work here--no one can disagree your last point, but the hole in your OL argument is that, while yes they've been 'addressed' and have bodies, those bodies were big fails and unless they develop in pretty radical fashion, we'll likely be stuck very much the same on O as in '22 even if the receiver group is upgraded. Aside from his neck injury (could be a big aside), Ezeudu is unproven, unknown. Neal was a huge drag on the passing game and no one knows what his level will be. JF and Glow were mediocre almost the whole season though Glow did improve late. Four big ?? out of 5. Gates is gone; I'd like to see BB at C, unless we draft a guy who can come in and start day 1. I don't think Schoen and BB are 'don't sleep on xxx" guys, so I think they will make a key move or two.
I'd love to get more certainty on the lines, but Neal was drafted 7th overall. He will be given every opportunity to succeed.
Glowinski still has guaranteed money. He started every game last year. He will be the starter this year.
Obviously, this regime likes Ezeudu. He improved throughout the year and even saw time as a starter. He was drafted to start.
Thomas is Thomas.
That leaves center, but I think we all agree that Bredeson or Feliciano will get that spot.
I'm not saying that these players can't be upgraded or play better, but they have to allocate their resources wisely. They have to see what they have with Neal and Ezeudu.
Now if they want to upgrade the center spot, I am all for it, but good or bad, the other 4 positions are already accounted for in 2023.
Kafka knows Hardman from Kansas City. Great return man. Can be used in many schemes. Again, 4.3 speed.
Notice a theme...speed!
Getting Ds to respect the receivers, especially give our OL is not yet able to protect DJ long enough to stay in the pocket, also helps getting SB open on swing passes or through the line on a delayed draw and likely get him 2 yards passed the LOS and let him use his feet and wiggle to get some good yardage….like opponents do to us.
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Kafka knows Hardman from Kansas City. Great return man. Can be used in many schemes. Again, 4.3 speed.
Notice a theme...speed!
Getting Ds to respect the receivers, especially give our OL is not yet able to protect DJ long enough to stay in the pocket, also helps getting SB open on swing passes or through the line on a delayed draw and likely get him 2 yards passed the LOS and let him use his feet and wiggle to get some good yardage….like opponents do to us.
by contrast, hardman was good at all levels. he is often utilized behind the LOS and generated almost 8 yac yards per catch (also ran in 2 tds not in these numbers). that's an element slayton doesn't have. in the middle ranges he was more efficient with fewer drops. and on the deep balls he was also a little more efficient. what's also notable is that even though jones threw fewer INTs than any other QB, he threw 3 when targeting slayton whereas hardman had no ints when he was thrown to.
i dont know what hardman's season would have looked like over a full year instead of a half year, but we've seen enough from slayton that i'd rather roll the dice on a guy who i think just fits the offense better because he can do more things.
Teams will be better prepared for that short passing game this year as Philly was in the playoffs.
Ideally you want to be able to run is the environment above and have the WR arsenal.
What will also help is assembling a D that gives up 18 pts/game and I think this is closer than some with some good moves.
Schoen can go a few different ways and still put a good team on the field imv. Go with BPA and don't overspend in FA.
Be interesting to see how he attacks it.
Hooray!
It's a bad situation to be in. There aren't many guys available that DO score and have been more productive than Slayton while he's so flawed. You can go get an old declining Theilen or make a draft pick trade. Grim.
"Disturbing" is dramatic. Giants fans also have a consistent tendency to define their own players by their flaws rather than what they do well.
Slayton averages 15 yard a catch. He has legitimate NFL downfield speed that has translated in games to big plays. Yeah his hands aren't great. That's why he was a late pick.
Hardman has more reliable hands and...that's it. Despite playing with a Hall of Fame QB on an offense that does video game numbers he is....what?
Can't even get on the field. Even after trading Hill he plays less than half the Chiefs' offensive snaps on a team that throws the ball all over the field.
What love? Some of us think he's a quality WR3-type who has a good physical toolbox. But he clearly has deficiencies that keep him at that WR3 level.
You are 1000% right on all points -- hard to fathom the level Slayton's being overrated here, and I'd be thrilled with Chark/Hardman as upgrades even if they're wr 2/3s.
in 8 games hardman had 6 tds, which is almost the same total slayton has had in the last 3 years combined.
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is quite disturbing. He is sooo overrated.Chark or Hardman would be significant upgrades over Slayton. Agree though none would be a #1. Chark and Hardman are 2/3 wr's.
"Disturbing" is dramatic. Giants fans also have a consistent tendency to define their own players by their flaws rather than what they do well.
Slayton averages 15 yard a catch. He has legitimate NFL downfield speed that has translated in games to big plays. Yeah his hands aren't great. That's why he was a late pick.
Hardman has more reliable hands and...that's it. Despite playing with a Hall of Fame QB on an offense that does video game numbers he is....what?
Can't even get on the field. Even after trading Hill he plays less than half the Chiefs' offensive snaps on a team that throws the ball all over the field.
Let's not pretend that Slayton is faster than Hardman or Chark...
Hardman: 4.33
Chark: 4.34
Slayton: 4.39
in 8 games hardman had 6 tds, which is almost the same total slayton has had in the last 3 years combined.
I love that we now have access to more information these days. 6 touchdowns, sure. Here are the yards on those scoring receptions in 2022.
2 yard pass
3 yard pass
8 yard pass
7 yard pass
In 2022,
8 yard td
8 yard td.
I'm not saying he's a bad player. He got a roster spot on a championship team. Reid knows offense. But I'm not in a hurry to undervalue a speed/big play threat for a part time possession guy.
Isaiah Hodgins
David Sills
Makai Polk
Jaydon Mickens
Kalil Pimpleton
That's it. If you guys think that Hardman or Chark would not be upgrades then you don't know how dire the situation is at WR.
Resign Slayton at this point, if this is what we're looking at.
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They are useful spare parts. But they aren't a way to remake the WR corps.
both are upgrades none the less
I'd prefer any of those 4 to like a Theilen though. This offense was really slow last year, Waller is a start but they need to add juice. Use free agency to address the short term need of speed and the draft to select the most talented WR(s) regardless of skillset.
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In comment 16065805 Dave said:
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In comment 16065776 Jay on the Island said:
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who we know will be healthy for training camp:
Isaiah Hodgins
David Sills
Makai Polk
Jaydon Mickens
Kalil Pimpleton
That's it. If you guys think that Hardman or Chark would not be upgrades then you don't know how dire the situation is at WR.
Slayton would be #2 on that list, just sayin...
I would take Slayton over Hardman or Chark. Knows the playbook and healthier than both of them.
Knows the playbook? Is that the goal now? If so, that is a pretty low bar. Any new player will also learn the playbook.
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that's an "other than that, how was the play mrs lincoln".
in 8 games hardman had 6 tds, which is almost the same total slayton has had in the last 3 years combined.
I love that we now have access to more information these days. 6 touchdowns, sure. Here are the yards on those scoring receptions in 2022.
2 yard pass
3 yard pass
8 yard pass
7 yard pass
In 2022,
8 yard td
8 yard td.
I'm not saying he's a bad player. He got a roster spot on a championship team. Reid knows offense. But I'm not in a hurry to undervalue a speed/big play threat for a part time possession guy.
hardman is just as fast if not faster than slayton, there are just more ways to get his hands in the ball because he's a more versatile player. whether it's runs, screens, or special teams.
as receivers his career ypc (13.8) isn't far off slayton's (15) so calling him a possession receiver isn't that accurate. there isn't a big gap in their explosiveness even though slayton's had higher volume.
they've each hit similar numbers of chunk plays:
slayton 38x 20+, 9x 40+
hardman 28x 20+, 9x 40+
hardman has 3 additional runs 20+. and 2 return tds.
last year was the first chance he was going to get to be more than a distant 3rd option behind Kelce/Hill, and just as he was getting going with touchdowns in 3 straight games he got hurt.
he's only 25, he's made improvements year over year, his hands are better than slaytons and he replaces all of his speed and then some.
i dont want slayton back, but he's a starter quality player they need to replace, and hardman is an upgrade.
chark is a higher upside version of slayton. dont hate the gamble but also dont love it. he has a lower floor than slayton who is at least somewhat of a known quantity.
If you want guys that are upgrades over slayton than pick guys who are actually upgrades over slayton. Slayton has been healthier, and more productive, faster, and more consistent than either of these 2 or anyone on the roster.
Hodgins had a nice 2 months out of his career.none of these guys beats slaytons production.1 guy has 1 more careeer touchdown. all ahve less yards, and less yds per attempt.
Gimme Slayton over these guys. If his drops go down, it isn't even close who is the better reciever.
in 8 games hardman had 6 tds, which is almost the same total slayton has had in the last 3 years combined.
Well, Hardman did have Patrick Lavon Mahomes, II throwing to him.
Waller is your mismatch in the passing game.
A group of Chark/Hardman, Hodgins, WanDale and a high draft pick is a major improvement from last season.
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last year he played significant snaps in 8 games and had 6 touchdowns. 2 were rushing touchdowns, 4 were receiving.
last year was the first chance he was going to get to be more than a distant 3rd option behind Kelce/Hill, and just as he was getting going with touchdowns in 3 straight games he got hurt.
he's only 25, he's made improvements year over year, his hands are better than slaytons and he replaces all of his speed and then some.
i dont want slayton back, but he's a starter quality player they need to replace, and hardman is an upgrade.
chark is a higher upside version of slayton. dont hate the gamble but also dont love it. he has a lower floor than slayton who is at least somewhat of a known quantity.
Harman is not in fact an upgrade over Slayton. His production doesn't say so.\
If you want guys that are upgrades over slayton than pick guys who are actually upgrades over slayton. Slayton has been healthier, and more productive, faster, and more consistent than either of these 2 or anyone on the roster.
Hodgins had a nice 2 months out of his career.none of these guys beats slaytons production.1 guy has 1 more careeer touchdown. all ahve less yards, and less yds per attempt.
Gimme Slayton over these guys. If his drops go down, it isn't even close who is the better reciever.
100% agree with this.