If you were GM how would you go about fixing the WR position?
For me, this is a 2 year project.
This year,
You draft 1 receiver in rounds 1-3 and one in later rounds. Hope the early draft pick can fill the WR1/2 role this year.
Bring in a vet receiver that falls out in free agency as the other starter, hopefully on a prove it contract.
Hope that a Wan’dale or other receiver on the team can fill a slot role.
Pick up depth as you can go round out the position.
Next year,
reassess and fill in pieces as needed, likely with another draft pick.
It is all about competition. If you don't draft one every year, competition suffers. With the cost of the second contract for stars at those positions it is crucial you have a pipeline.
Sounds like they have an offer for Slayton and he is shopping it with Atlanta.
Richie James might be an option for depth.
Round 1 Targets are Zay Flowers and Jayen Hyatt both who seem to match up value wise at Pick 25.
Round 2. Mingo from Ole Miss would be good value.
I really think they bring in Hardman. He has return ability as well as speed. It just makes sense. I will be interested to see if he signs in the next 48 hours.
The Giants may be restructuring or extending players to make room.
The last possibility is to trade for Jeudy who would cost our 1st round pick. This is a long shot. But if they really want him, if they can get a 3rd rounder back I might consider it.
The coaching staff has shown they'll play the best guys so I think as long as they add talent and have competition we'll get better production. A little bit of health luck would be great too.
Waller should also take some of the pressure off receivers.
To me, there are 2 options:
1. Trade. Most likely option, but the price has to be right.
2. Trade up in the draft if theres a WR we love. If there is, then that's the move. If there's not, then we have to trade for a WR.
Sounds like they have an offer for Slayton and he is shopping it with Atlanta.
Richie James might be an option for depth.
Round 1 Targets are Zay Flowers and Jayen Hyatt both who seem to match up value wise at Pick 25.
Round 2. Mingo from Ole Miss would be good value.
I really think they bring in Hardman. He has return ability as well as speed. It just makes sense. I will be interested to see if he signs in the next 48 hours.
The Giants may be restructuring or extending players to make room.
The last possibility is to trade for Jeudy who would cost our 1st round pick. This is a long shot. But if they really want him, if they can get a 3rd rounder back I might consider it.
How would you compare Jeudy to Flowers\Hyatt?
To me, there are 2 options:
1. Trade. Most likely option, but the price has to be right.
2. Trade up in the draft if theres a WR we love. If there is, then that's the move. If there's not, then we have to trade for a WR.
What did Schoen say? Don't shop hungry.
You're shopping hungry.
Klaatu : 7:35 am : link : reply
In comment 16066215 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
you guys earlier today. You're not looking at the roster. We need to sign guys who will push players such as Marcus Johnson, David Sills, Jaydon Mickens, Makai Polk, and Kalil Pimpleton off of the roster.
Those are 5 of the 8 receivers currently under contract. Our WR room is that bad.
I think we're all looking at the roster and can see the lack of talent in the WR's currently under contract. The question is what do we do about it? How, exactly, do we push the guys you listed off the roster? What makes the most sense, tactically, financially, short-term, long-term? It's not like we can snap our fingers and poof we have a whole new WR corps.
The sad fact is that the effects of the previous regime's incompetence are still being felt, and not just in the WR room - in every room. Last year's success notwithstanding, it may take another year before the Giants are truly competitive, a real match for the better teams in the league, especially those in their own division. They do need to be proactive, but also prudent. Knee-jerk reactions born out of desperation were the hallmarks of the recent past. We don't need more of the same.
Do what you can with what you have without hamstringing yourself, and make the most out of what you do have. If you can't sign or draft a prototypical 'X,' maybe you trade for one. Or, maybe, you get more talent at 'Y' and 'Z' and find ways to maximize their talents to compensate. Just get stronger where it's possible, where it makes the most sense.
As others said, we will see a lot of Bellinger and Waller. That will be our base personnel package. I don't see a lot of Waller being inline.
Hodgins if he can play like he did last year is a functional split end.
Wandale (when healthy), Sheppard (when healthy) and a guy like Zay Flowers/ Addison/ JSN all are very good receivers to line up in bunch formations off the line of scrimmage with Waller on the line or in motion.
Would Waller be our true #1 receeiver? Not sure. I don't think you need 1. Spread the ball around.
Round 3: Rice, Palmer or Reed
I would love to get Darius Rush CB in round 2
Fix the WR position in the draft.
I trust Schoen and company.
i think the big trade everyone wants should come next year
Mack Hollins = 2.4M or Chris Moore = Vet Min. - Savvy Vets good route runners and cheap!
Bring back Richie James
Hope the draft falls right and grab 1 in the first couple rounds and then another later on.
Would be tempted but...
Parris Campbell - Was a no all the way for me, but they project him to get 2.5M, at that price it might be worth the gamble.
DJ Chark Doesn't feel like a fit for DJ and at 9.5M, think I have to pass.
OBJ at 13.5M, hmmm, Football says yes, Smart Tough Dependable says NO.
Slayton = 3.5M - Just think its best for both parties to move on. I hope he gets more than that, I do think he deserve it.
Prior to the Waller trade, there was probably a need for more desperation there. They kind of needed to make a big move on the trade market or really attack multiple stop gap options in UFA at WR/TE. That takes the pressure off some. You can run predominantly 2 TE next year which typically takes a WR off the field. And Waller is a legitimate receiving weapon that defenses need to gameplan for, we didn't have a single pass catcher that required that last year. Works not done but you can build this up with smaller moves now if you wanted.
Quote:
and would probably mean the end of this group(Jones, Daboll, Schoen).
To me, there are 2 options:
1. Trade. Most likely option, but the price has to be right.
2. Trade up in the draft if theres a WR we love. If there is, then that's the move. If there's not, then we have to trade for a WR.
What did Schoen say? Don't shop hungry.
You're shopping hungry.
We are starving, we haven't eaten in over a year, on our death bed. I understand we have to be smart with our assets and how we build the position, but we also have to eat something or we will die.
Quote:
With the addition of Waller it is safe to say the Giants are going to build off what they did last year, lots of mulitple TE sets. Waller, Bellinger with Barkley on the field together is the strongest formation talent wise. Add Hodgins to this combo as well.
Sounds like they have an offer for Slayton and he is shopping it with Atlanta.
Richie James might be an option for depth.
Round 1 Targets are Zay Flowers and Jayen Hyatt both who seem to match up value wise at Pick 25.
Round 2. Mingo from Ole Miss would be good value.
I really think they bring in Hardman. He has return ability as well as speed. It just makes sense. I will be interested to see if he signs in the next 48 hours.
The Giants may be restructuring or extending players to make room.
The last possibility is to trade for Jeudy who would cost our 1st round pick. This is a long shot. But if they really want him, if they can get a 3rd rounder back I might consider it.
How would you compare Jeudy to Flowers\Hyatt?
I would say that Jeudy has the potential to be a true number 1 over Flowers or Hyatt. The issue is control of contract. Jeudy will be fairly affordable this year and the Giants would have the 5th year option for 2024.
The juggling act that Schoen already has going on with Dex Mckinney, Thomas, Barkley with extensions is gonna be interesting without adding an extension for Jeudy to it.
I kinda like Hyatt in general. He has what you can't teach. Plus we need big plays and I think between him and Flowers he has the potential to deliver.
If they decide to trade our 1st round pick for Jeudy I would hope that Schoen could get a 3rd round pick in return with him. Maybe even the early 4th rounder. Could use another WR to add and the early 3rd there could be a couple of gems available.
Because of this I think we all need to get comfortable with the idea that it won't be 100% "fixed" this off season. While I would expect another mid tier vet signing, I don't see Schoen reaching to take a guy in round 1 or 2 (if we have to reach) just to "fix" the position.
We've already added a big weapon pass catcher in Waller, from here on out just concentrate on improving upon what we have, both the front and back end of the depth chart, and look to make the big move a year or two from know when the rest of our roster is built and it will put us over the top.
Too many holes to just concentrate on "fixing" one position.
Round 3: Rice, Palmer or Reed
I would love to get Darius Rush CB in round 2
Fix the WR position in the draft.
I trust Schoen and company.
This is what is needed. This is what the draft if for. Getting cost controlled players at the expensive positions.
Just having Waller adds a big threat on offense.
Add a #1 WR, Hodgins becomes a very capable #2 outlet, working on the other team's CB2 with coverage rolled away. Shepard and Robinson can spell each other in the slot, without being relied upon for snaps outside.
The guys behind those 4 are punt gunners.
Just having Waller adds a big threat on offense.
This is still a 2 yr project
Vet wr who gives u some upside but not crazy expensive
Draft choice first 3 rds
Another developmental wr rds 5-7
Improve LOS to handle a lines in our division
Resign our own ( maybe not love). A few mid tier rotational guys in FA
If successful, next yr impact guys at cb and wr. Even if you have to package 2025 picks some
DONE.
With that said, for our receiving game as a whole to be sufficiently improved, a number of things more or less have to fall into place.
1. Waller has to stay healthy and play at or near his prior pro-bowl level
2. Hodgins needs to continue to build on what we saw last year and establish himself as at minumum a quality #2 WR or excellent #3 WR
3. One of our 'lower' rung options needs to be a quality 3rd or 4th option (James, Smith, Shepard, Johnson etc)
4. Giants need at least one either FA or high draft pick to come in and become at minumum a quality 2 (if Hodgins is ideally more a 3) or 3 this year. For instance Chark as a FA or a guy like Flowers, JSN or Addison if they make it to the 25th pick.
If all 4 happen there is a good chance the receiving game is above average. With DJ and Narkley the run game will be strong enough for this offense to be quite explosive if our receiving options as a whole become above average or better.
Quote:
In comment 16066576 Kmed6000 said:
Quote:
and would probably mean the end of this group(Jones, Daboll, Schoen).
To me, there are 2 options:
1. Trade. Most likely option, but the price has to be right.
2. Trade up in the draft if theres a WR we love. If there is, then that's the move. If there's not, then we have to trade for a WR.
What did Schoen say? Don't shop hungry.
You're shopping hungry.
We are starving, we haven't eaten in over a year, on our death bed. I understand we have to be smart with our assets and how we build the position, but we also have to eat something or we will die.
Eric is correct. You are freaking out. Schoen and Daboll have already proven they can win with sub-optimal WRs. Waller is a huge get to team with Bellinger. They will pick up a couple of vet minimum WRs(or maybe a bit higher). There will be vets cut because of the cap savings on other teams. There is the draft.
This is not a 1 year project. They know they need help. They need to work on LWs and AJs contracts to free up money. Hardman may be an option to stretch the field with his speed. I am certain there are other youngish WRs out there looking for a chance.
I am not for expensive older vets - limits flexibility and hurts the cap (Hopkins). I would not mind Jeudy if gotten for the 3rd and 5th. But Schoen knows what he is doing, I will give him plenty of time to get bodies for DJ to throw to.
I'd love for the Giants to hit on a mid round WR someday, like Pittsburgh always does. Pitt seems to just have a knack for finding gems at WR.
DONE.
After the Waller signing I just don't know if they want or can allocate more heavy $$$ to the receiving game depending on what other positions they are planning to address in FA.
That's why I think they'd prefer the WR still on a rookie contract if the draft cost is palatable i.e. Aiyuk, Pittman, Jeudy etc.
IF they have the willingness to allocate that kind of money after the Waller trade, that would be a phenomenal move.
And yes, a 1st or 2nd round WR would almost definitely be in the mix because Hopkins and Waller are kind of 'short term' fixes as they are both past 30 and showing signs of maybe starting to get injury prone or breaking down.
Waller
Hopkins
Hodgins
1st or 2nd rd WR (Hopefully 1 of JSN, Addison, QJ, or Flowers or 2nd rd Tyler Scott, Josh Downs, Michael Wilson, Jayden Reed, Tillman)
Shep
James
Wandale Robinson showed nothing in games that counted, and yes he never got a chance to so it was impossible. Tiny catch radius and some speed (not all that impressive for an ultra-smurf) are also unquestioned. Admittedly I hated the pick as it smacked of Plan D (see Kadarius Toney draft narrative.)
The point is, not only should James be on the camp roster, but he should be ahead of Robinson to start.
Wandale Robinson showed nothing in games that counted, and yes he never got a chance to so it was impossible. Tiny catch radius and some speed (not all that impressive for an ultra-smurf) are also unquestioned. Admittedly I hated the pick as it smacked of Plan D (see Kadarius Toney draft narrative.)
The point is, not only should James be on the camp roster, but he should be ahead of Robinson to start.
He flashed and had a 100 yard+ game going prior to injury. I wouldn't entirely count him out just yet.
Quote:
In comment 16066559 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
With the addition of Waller it is safe to say the Giants are going to build off what they did last year, lots of mulitple TE sets. Waller, Bellinger with Barkley on the field together is the strongest formation talent wise. Add Hodgins to this combo as well.
Sounds like they have an offer for Slayton and he is shopping it with Atlanta.
Richie James might be an option for depth.
Round 1 Targets are Zay Flowers and Jayen Hyatt both who seem to match up value wise at Pick 25.
Round 2. Mingo from Ole Miss would be good value.
I really think they bring in Hardman. He has return ability as well as speed. It just makes sense. I will be interested to see if he signs in the next 48 hours.
The Giants may be restructuring or extending players to make room.
The last possibility is to trade for Jeudy who would cost our 1st round pick. This is a long shot. But if they really want him, if they can get a 3rd rounder back I might consider it.
How would you compare Jeudy to Flowers\Hyatt?
I would say that Jeudy has the potential to be a true number 1 over Flowers or Hyatt. The issue is control of contract. Jeudy will be fairly affordable this year and the Giants would have the 5th year option for 2024.
The juggling act that Schoen already has going on with Dex Mckinney, Thomas, Barkley with extensions is gonna be interesting without adding an extension for Jeudy to it.
I kinda like Hyatt in general. He has what you can't teach. Plus we need big plays and I think between him and Flowers he has the potential to deliver.
If they decide to trade our 1st round pick for Jeudy I would hope that Schoen could get a 3rd round pick in return with him. Maybe even the early 4th rounder. Could use another WR to add and the early 3rd there could be a couple of gems available.
If Jeudy has more potential to be a true #1 and is still very young (23), I think you have to seriously consider trading the first round pick for him.
71 slayton
70 james
42 hodgins
35 bellinger
31 robinson
24 shepard
22 m. johnson
in total there were a little under 400 targets to non-rbs that need to be filled.
in 2023 i think it's safe to say they would hope to send 100+ targets to waller so he fills a big hole if healthy. even in 2021 when he only played 11 games he had 93.
in a full year hodgins should at least double his total from last year so between those 2 that could be roughly 200/400 targets allocated.
they obviously need more depth because it's hard to count on much from shepard/robinson off major injuries but realistically the best place to get another 80+ target receiver is the draft. they should hedge by signing another competent veteran too. that could be slayton if he's cheap but it would seem they are rightfully looking for better alternatives.
- The group that ended the year was a third wave of players at the position (Toney, Golladay, Shepard, Sills, Johnson, Johnson, and Robinson all figured ahead of them)
- Slayton, James, and Hodgins all drastically improved their career bests across a number of key measures
- All three players were in Kafka's system (Hodgins had a sniff with Daboll before) for the first time
So again, if these guys are the dregs on the NFL talent-wise, the logical conclusion in my view is Dabolll, Kafka, and Groh did amazing work with this group.
So I wouldn't 1) expect big time investments 2) assume a few value signings with marginally better talent won't exceed last year's output.
Quote:
Richie James showed plenty as a WR, although a decided lack of ball security as a Returner. Speed is unquestioned, and hands as a WR were average to good, and he made some critical catches to move the chains.
Wandale Robinson showed nothing in games that counted, and yes he never got a chance to so it was impossible. Tiny catch radius and some speed (not all that impressive for an ultra-smurf) are also unquestioned. Admittedly I hated the pick as it smacked of Plan D (see Kadarius Toney draft narrative.)
The point is, not only should James be on the camp roster, but he should be ahead of Robinson to start.
He flashed and had a 100 yard+ game going prior to injury. I wouldn't entirely count him out just yet.
Exactly. He steadily improved as a rookie and was having a breakout 100 yard game when he got hurt. He likely won't be ready for camp but James isn't in the conversation if he's healthy.
Let me also say I hate the term 'fix' such and such a position. It implies that once you're done its permanent, but I can predict with pretty much 100% accuracy that even if the Giants get a couple or three good receivers this year they'll be re-addressing the situation in 2024 and 2025 and so on. The more appropriate word might be address or upgrade.
And not to belabor the point but I really expect that the goal of the Giants this off-season, especially early in the draft, is to find a couple of really good players with the potential to make impact plays, rather than simply go about plugging holes.
I meant fix in the same vein as “fixing a house”. It’s never truly fixed for long.
I also agree with going bpa and adding the best players available in the draft (other than rb). But the wr roster is sub par and you have got to throw some resources at it because even players on vet minimums are better than our current roster.
Enjoy your site a lot when we get to draft season.
Let me also say I hate the term 'fix' such and such a position. It implies that once you're done its permanent, but I can predict with pretty much 100% accuracy that even if the Giants get a couple or three good receivers this year they'll be re-addressing the situation in 2024 and 2025 and so on. The more appropriate word might be address or upgrade.
And not to belabor the point but I really expect that the goal of the Giants this off-season, especially early in the draft, is to find a couple of really good players with the potential to make impact plays, rather than simply go about plugging holes.