Mike Garafolo
@MikeGarafolo
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1m
The #Giants have agreed to terms to re-sign WR Darius Slayton, sources tell me and
@RapSheet
. The 2019 fifth-round pick returns to East Rutherford after a bounce-back season (46 catches for 724 yards).
The Darius Slayton vs. Darius Slay matchup stays in the NFC East after all.
I agree on this. That Lazard deal is bananas, would be pretty annoyed if that were us.
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I’d rather have Slayton at 6M then Lazard or Gallup at 11
I agree on this. That Lazard deal is bananas, would be pretty annoyed if that were us.
Yes, but just because a team makes a bad deal doesn't mean we should compare ourselves to that bad deal. Those are worse deals, but this is still a bad deal.
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if julian love gets a similar 6-7m aav elsewhere would you still have preferred bringing back slayton?
I really don't see where a 6m AAV is objectionable.
If you don't believe it's within the realm of league normal, I'm not sure there's any way to stop debating it.
i never said it was - its exactly the price i expected him to get bc its exactly the price every comp projected. i just wouldnt have wanted to be the one to pay it to him for the exact reason implied in the question i asked that you dodged, there are better uses of that same aav on a player like love.
you cant just sign as many players as you want just bc they are fmv deals. you have to choose who you want to fit under the cap. i hope they can fit both but id have gone love over slayton all day. u?
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I’d rather have Slayton at 6M then Lazard or Gallup at 11
I agree on this. That Lazard deal is bananas, would be pretty annoyed if that were us.
lazard got the deal he did in large part because of rodgers.
In comment 16064777 Eric on Li said:
If Campbell is in our #1, we're in deep doo doo
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Slayton in pretty good company Link - ( New Window )
having as many drops as players who get 2-3x as many targets isn't good.
the last 2 years slayton has been worst in the league in drop%.
league average is like 7% so slayton is dropping 2x league average.
alternatives like jakobi meyers were 1.5% & juju was 3.3%.
spending this much on UFAs wasn't something i expected so if there's something they may end up regretting i think it may be giving slayton + campbell roughly the same aav combined as they could have just given 1 of those guys. they are taking 2 fliers on upside guys instead of just adding 1 more proven above average starter.
wow that’s worse than I thought
But I hate the contract. Don't get this one at all. Seems ridiculously high especially given what they paid Paris Campbell.
Forgetting the compensation for a moment, though, Slayton is actually a pretty good number three in this offense. Paris Campbell has a much higher ceiling than Slayton and if healthy is a great number two. Hodgins, James, Smith and Robinson become rotational guys which is actually now pretty solid depth. Still need a number one WR on this team, though. Waller can possibly be that guy depending on how he is used. Overall, I love the big boost in team speed on offense.
We still need a number one WR though before we effectively match up with the Eagles, Cowboys and the AFC East in terms of overall offense... If not DHop in a trade, then the draft...
Slayton is only 26, he's healthy and still pretty quick. Put another WR like that next to him and maybe he continues to grow.
Obviously they like him for more then his talent on the field, think some of you need to take that in consideration as well.
Slayton is only 26, he's healthy and still pretty quick. Put another WR like that next to him and maybe he continues to grow.
Obviously they like him for more then his talent on the field, think some of you need to take that in consideration as well.
we'll see how things go but again it's not just slayton in a vacuum.
if love leaves bc they cant afford him, and gets paid similar to slayton as projected that was effectively the choice. love was a captain who also brought a lot to the team.
Waller has 8.25M guaranteed money left on his deal.
I won't be surprised if the total guarantees on Slayton + Waller are less than 15M.
So I suspect for the pick and guaranteed dollars getting Sutton would have required for 2023, the Giants got Slayton + Waller.
And Sutton and Slayton are in the same neighborhood in terms of drops and career catch rate, so let's not make Slayton some kind of tragedy and Sutton a good bet.
Hope he has a breakout year.
Mouth open… up to $8M per? WTF
I like the player but not at that cost with his inconsistencies.
Waller has 8.25M guaranteed money left on his deal.
I won't be surprised if the total guarantees on Slayton + Waller are less than 15M.
So I suspect for the pick and guaranteed dollars getting Sutton would have required for 2023, the Giants got Slayton + Waller.
And Sutton and Slayton are in the same neighborhood in terms of drops and career catch rate, so let's not make Slayton some kind of tragedy and Sutton a good bet.
waller's base is 11m + 1.5m in roster/workout bonuses. how much he has guaranteed of that doesn't matter, he's not taking a paycut, so unless you think the nyg traded for waller to cut him and eat 9m in dead money he's getting 12.5m cash this year vs. 14m for sutton. either of them could have restructured salary to signing bonus to create room the same way.
im not sure what numbers you are looking at but per pff over the last 2 seasons sutton has 7 drops in 201 targets. slayton has 12 in 125 targets.
that's 1 drop for every 28 targets for sutton and a 60% catch rate each year.
and 1 drop for every 10 targets for slayton, 65% catch rate '22, 47% '21.
waller has 8 in 132 targets so he's in between at 1 drop for every 16 targets. 66% catch rate '22, 61% '21.
waller and sutton are both only available because their recent track record fell off from their prior pro bowl 'alpha' seasons. pre-acl in 2019 sutton looked like a star and at 27 who knows maybe there's still time. w/ waller it was 2019 + 2020. both are similar buy low gambles at similar costs.
He has good YAC, plenty fast and does contest one-on-one catches well enough. Well better value than Odell and not toxic like Odell
Slay highlights - ( New Window )
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contract.
Hope he has a breakout year.
Mouth open… up to $8M per? WTF
I like the player but not at that cost with his inconsistencies.
Why would your jaw drop at contract incentives?
What would be the problem if he..plays well enough to earn them?
But in reality, drops are not as significant as they seem. Slayton can get open and is particularly good at driving the safety back and then cutting to the middle to give his QB a wide open throw.
And for every Slayton drop, there were two Danny Jones misthrows.
We have to wait to see how much of the contract is guaranteed. But he is a good guy to have on the team, especially since the QB is comfortable throwing to him.
This is what I was going to point out. Maybe the inner details of the contract have been revealed and rational fans have a right to be concerned. If not, this point had been driven home(broadcast anyway, I think many fans still got hung up on aav) but that the aav is essentially meaningless and it has far more to do with the guaranteed money and how the contract is actually structured. The agents release the aav first to show their client made out like a bandit, but later on the details are usually revealed on how the team protected itself. The knee jerk outrage to aav minutes after a tweet is posted is a horse that’s been beaten to death already too many times. A paper thin free agent WR market may have benefited Slayton in this instance, and he may not have been the Giants plan A. to force a pivot away from Slayton just for the sake of doing so when the alternatives were either A)pricier FA WRs who the Giants didn’t feel presented the right value based on the #s they were seeking(who knows what Hadman or Chark were looking for), or B)forcing a Jeudy trade where they gave up more compensation than they felt Jeudy was worth…is that what anyone would really want? That was the Golladay signing. Slayton may seem pricy at first blush, but without knowing the alternative costs it’s hard to grill them because their wasn’t much on the market to begin with.
Good guy...good teammate....and is smart, tough and dependable
So BBI, relax.....
He only had 46 catches and two touchdowns. That's not productive for a guy who started 11 games.
You’re viewing this like a person who just started watching football. Touchdowns numbers are irrelevant. The guy has played in a run heavy offense. That alone lowers the totals. Plus who was opposite him? He had a very good season Your letting his drop Vs the Vikings change your entire view of his season. Without slayton we don’t make the playoffs this year. He was very reliable and had many big catches over the middle absorbing contact and stayed healthy. Him and jones have a legit connection and there’s nobody better on the giants roster running the deep over route. He’s the only pure outside wr we currently have. Campbell can play everywhere but he’s more slot. Hodgins is a possession guy. Slayton is the only speed from the outside and is a very blocker down field. Let’s not overreact to a guy making 6 million per who just had 700 yards. He’s only 26 and increased his catch rate by nearly 10 percent so you would think he can still improve. Also, it slightly lessens the need to draft an X WR early and force that pick. Not that slayton is an X but you subtract him and we are clearly taking WR round 1
Slayton, 26, ranked in the top five in catches, receiving yards, yards per reception and touchdowns over the past four years among all free agents under 30 years old, according to Priority Sports agency.
In three of his four seasons, the ultra-consistent Slayton’s numbers have fallen between 46-50 catches and 724-751 yards.
He has 15 total touchdowns and has led the team in receiving yards three times.
Yeah, he's not a big time receiver, but lets not act like he is dog shit.
Yup my bad the total practical cost of Waller and Slayton for 2023 is probably closer to 18.5M guaranteed vs. the 14M Sutton full guaranteed.
In terms of Sutton vs. Slayton, per PFR:
Career Slayton: 55% catch rate, 6.8% drop rate, 15YPR, 8.3YPT
Career Sutton: 57% catch rate, 5.9% drop rate, 14.6YPR, 8.3YPT
Sutton and Slayton on a per target basis are pretty similar.
This is the point I've made over and over. The difference between Slayton and a player like Sutton isn't so much reliability, it is touches.
Slayton is not versatile enough to command the targets a player like Waller, Gallup, or Sutton. And that's why he makes 6M a year and they make 11-15M.
All told, I think the Giants come out on the plus end with Slayton and Waller at 18.5M vs. Sutton.
That’s the Kenny Goldiday version of a contact for a guy you know is a #4 WR
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Max value of $16.5 m. Right what I said he’d get when everyone called him a minimum player
Awful deal and I don't get it. I really don't get it. He's what? At BEST a #3/#4 WR?
Slayton has almost 3 times the yds and they started the same time. 3 times the TDs, while we're at it.
people just say shit
But what do I know?
I'd like to know what your definition of "production" is?
Congratulations. You won BBI's shit take of the day.
If he is anything more than a 5th or 6th WR we are in trouble.
you have zero basis in reality. None. Delusional.
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by posters who keep saying that Slayton was "productive."
He only had 46 catches and two touchdowns. That's not productive for a guy who started 11 games.
Not sure what there is to be floored about? You can recognize that a guy has some value while understanding that he’s not a great player. Look at the totality of his time here and his production compared to where he was drafted.
4 days.
Less than 2, if you want to be really technical.
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waller's base is 11m + 1.5m in roster/workout bonuses.
Yup my bad the total practical cost of Waller and Slayton for 2023 is probably closer to 18.5M guaranteed vs. the 14M Sutton full guaranteed.
In terms of Sutton vs. Slayton, per PFR:
Career Slayton: 55% catch rate, 6.8% drop rate, 15YPR, 8.3YPT
Career Sutton: 57% catch rate, 5.9% drop rate, 14.6YPR, 8.3YPT
Sutton and Slayton on a per target basis are pretty similar.
This is the point I've made over and over. The difference between Slayton and a player like Sutton isn't so much reliability, it is touches.
Slayton is not versatile enough to command the targets a player like Waller, Gallup, or Sutton. And that's why he makes 6M a year and they make 11-15M.
All told, I think the Giants come out on the plus end with Slayton and Waller at 18.5M vs. Sutton.
PFR has slayton with 13 drops/129 targets the past 2 years, so same 1 in every 10 targets as PFF. they have sutton with 12 drops/207 targets, so roughly 1 in every 17 targets and pretty different than pff. they have waller with 8 drops in 136 so exactly same 1/17 as sutton. slayton also has 3 fumbles in the last 2 years (1 for every 40 targets/20 touches), whereas sutton and waller both have 0.
So to your bolded point and probably no surprise to you i disagree, the mistakes slayton makes are the main reason why he is a 70 target player instead of a 100-120 target player. those 30-50 extra targets are coming with extra mistakes in the literal form of 2 or 3 extra drops and 1 extra fumble. it's also why i think hodgins was clearly the best WR on the team last year once he emerged (which all the advanced metrics agree). in 42 targets he had 1 fumble but 0 drops. by rate slayton would have had 4 drops and fewer catches if he got those targets - which in an offense without a ton of margin for error is a big deal.
adding a more reliable weapon to go with hodgins whether it was hopkins, sutton, or waller was both necessary and separate from whether or not it was also worth retaining slayton. any of those 3 were likely to get restructured exactly as waller was today. the slayton question is more of a comparison against the alternative UFAs per $. with slayton and campbell they bet a combined 10m aav on upside over more dependable options. we all obviously hope that bet works out. i dont mind it but i think it's smarter to be clear eyed at the risk than otherwise.
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And the ADOTs of Juju and Meyers I’m guessing are a lot lower. Slayton needs to improve his drops but comparing his drop rate to Juju who catches most passes well within the sticks isn’t even close to apples to apples.
If Slayton were a 26 year old with sub 4.4 and a high ADOT and low drop rate he’d have gotten PAID. Also if you look at the high drop % players you see a theme on the type of WRs they are.
you are correct about adot/style - slayton selling point is that he's a more explosive downfield receiver (15 ypc).
slayton adot = 12.5
juju adot = 7.3
meyers = 9.9
but as u see meyers' adot wasn't too far behind, and neither was his ypc at 12.0. he had 14 plays 20+ and that was actually more than slayton's 12. and more tds.
that's all why meyers got basically 2x what slayton got. so im not splitting the atom pointing that out, just saying when factoring in cambell's 4-5m this year, i think id have preferred to take the better player. slayton is more of a downfield wide guy but he hasn't produced tds downfield as much as you'd expect since his rookie year. i think meyers is a pretty good bet to repeat what he's been the last couple years.
Darius Slayton was 5th in the NFL in yards per catch last year. That tracks with his career avg as well.
5th in the NFL in YPC. That ain't nothing.
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On a good offensive team, to give him a 2 year deal that you can't cut him year one without very little dead money is a bad deal.
If he is anything more than a 5th or 6th WR we are in trouble.
you can't name ONE team in the NFL who 5 or 6 WR has 750+ yds a year , not just one year but 3 of the last 4
you have zero basis in reality. None. Delusional.
Because there aren't any. In fact there are only a handful of teams with a #2 with that kind of production. Most don't have it. Our problem is not Slayton. It's that we don't have a #1. If Slayton were our #2 or #3, along with Waller as TE, we'd be golden.
Minny's #2: Thielen - 716 yards and 6 TDs
Buffalo's #2: Gabe Davis - 836 yards and 7 TDs
Dallas's #2: Brown: 555 yards and 3 TDs
Chargers #2: Josh Plamer: 769 yards and 3 TDs
KC's #3: Valdes-Scantling: 687 yards and 2 TDs
Miami's #3: Sherfield: 417 yards and 2 TDs
Slayton is at least easily a very good #3 and would be better than many other #2's if he had a solid #1 opposite him. That's just the NFL reality.
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In comment 16067673 AcesUp said:
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And the ADOTs of Juju and Meyers I’m guessing are a lot lower. Slayton needs to improve his drops but comparing his drop rate to Juju who catches most passes well within the sticks isn’t even close to apples to apples.
If Slayton were a 26 year old with sub 4.4 and a high ADOT and low drop rate he’d have gotten PAID. Also if you look at the high drop % players you see a theme on the type of WRs they are.
you are correct about adot/style - slayton selling point is that he's a more explosive downfield receiver (15 ypc).
slayton adot = 12.5
juju adot = 7.3
meyers = 9.9
but as u see meyers' adot wasn't too far behind, and neither was his ypc at 12.0. he had 14 plays 20+ and that was actually more than slayton's 12. and more tds.
that's all why meyers got basically 2x what slayton got. so im not splitting the atom pointing that out, just saying when factoring in cambell's 4-5m this year, i think id have preferred to take the better player. slayton is more of a downfield wide guy but he hasn't produced tds downfield as much as you'd expect since his rookie year. i think meyers is a pretty good bet to repeat what he's been the last couple years.
Darius Slayton was 5th in the NFL in yards per catch last year. That tracks with his career avg as well.
5th in the NFL in YPC. That ain't nothing.
correct, it's the upside they are betting on overcoming his other deficiencies. the deficiencies that had him on the bench/trade block/cutline to start the year after 2 months of preseason. my biggest gripe with slayton is dependability and since that's part of the team's mantra my guess is that was also their gripe when he was on the cutline.
Yup my bad the total practical cost of Waller and Slayton for 2023 is probably closer to 18.5M guaranteed vs. the 14M Sutton full guaranteed.
In terms of Sutton vs. Slayton, per PFR:
Career Slayton: 55% catch rate, 6.8% drop rate, 15YPR, 8.3YPT
Career Sutton: 57% catch rate, 5.9% drop rate, 14.6YPR, 8.3YPT
Sutton and Slayton on a per target basis are pretty similar.
This is the point I've made over and over. The difference between Slayton and a player like Sutton isn't so much reliability, it is touches.
Slayton is not versatile enough to command the targets a player like Waller, Gallup, or Sutton. And that's why he makes 6M a year and they make 11-15M.
All told, I think the Giants come out on the plus end with Slayton and Waller at 18.5M vs. Sutton.
PFR has slayton with 13 drops/129 targets the past 2 years, so same 1 in every 10 targets as PFF. they have sutton with 12 drops/207 targets, so roughly 1 in every 17 targets and pretty different than pff. they have waller with 8 drops in 136 so exactly same 1/17 as sutton. slayton also has 3 fumbles in the last 2 years (1 for every 40 targets/20 touches), whereas sutton and waller both have 0.
So to your bolded point and probably no surprise to you i disagree, the mistakes slayton makes are the main reason why he is a 70 target player instead of a 100-120 target player. those 30-50 extra targets are coming with extra mistakes in the literal form of 2 or 3 extra drops and 1 extra fumble. it's also why i think hodgins was clearly the best WR on the team last year once he emerged (which all the advanced metrics agree). in 42 targets he had 1 fumble but 0 drops. by rate slayton would have had 4 drops and fewer catches if he got those targets - which in an offense without a ton of margin for error is a big deal.
Why are you cutting the line at 2 years and not considering their career numbers?
To glean anything in the neighborhood of statistical significance and any hope of any predictive value two years of data isn't that interesting.
Those 30-50 extra targets would yield 250- 415 extra yards against the 4 year YPT number. In the abstract the staff would take that trade-off.
Slayton was on the field 75% or more the back half of the season. The staff is putting him in the position to have opportunities.
So in your line of thinking Slayton would be making the right reads, and getting open at a reasonable rate -- and Daniel Jones is choosing to not go his way because of the calculus that he'll drop the ball or fumble at higher rate?
That's a hell of a lot of processing power out there for Jones.
The more likely reality is Slayton isn't very versatile and doesn't get open in the ways needed to draw more targets.
if they wanted to get the ball to slayton more, they would have gotten the ball to slayton more. simple as that.
why use the last 2 years? because it's the most relevant sample size by far for the players in question.
Sutton tore his ACL in 2020 so he missed that entire year, and the last 2 years are his post-ACL numbers.
Waller was only available because of the injuries he's battled the last 2 years, which also impacted his performance when he was on the field. at his age and by his own admission those are legitimate concerns impacting his game. if they werent and he was doing what he was doing in 2019/2020 the last 2 years he'd still be a raider.
even when you're wrong you're right though, once your arguments start scraping the barrel to dodges re methodology flaws i should probably just ignore and not take the bait.
So cool, the staff is aces at scheming people open, and there is an order of operations in the reads.
If you think Darius Slayton is often open and in the right place, and the staff and Jones are choosing to not target him 30-50 more times because it'll lead to two more drops at the expense of hundreds of yards, you do you amigo!
So cool, the staff is aces at scheming people open, and there is an order of operations in the reads.
If you think Darius Slayton is often open and in the right place, and the staff and Jones are choosing to not target him 30-50 more times because it'll lead to two more drops at the expense of hundreds of yards, you do you amigo!
next gen stats had slayton:
67th percentile getting open
56th percentile yards after catch
30th percentile catching the ball
i think his speed created more separation than any other player they had last year, his run after the catch improved dramatically vs his first 3 years, and the numbers show that those qualities made him clearly the most explosive player they had (20+ plays, 40+ plays, ypc, next gen).
your contention seems to be the giants ignored all of that and just chose to not throw him the ball more. i think they had their reasons and they are pretty obvious.
now that love has signed for the literal same amount as slayton, i'd re-ask that hypothetical, which of those 2 players would you have chosen to bring back if it were up to you?