Mike Garafolo
@MikeGarafolo
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1m
The #Giants have agreed to terms to re-sign WR Darius Slayton, sources tell me and
@RapSheet
. The 2019 fifth-round pick returns to East Rutherford after a bounce-back season (46 catches for 724 yards).
The Darius Slayton vs. Darius Slay matchup stays in the NFC East after all.
Hopefully, some incentives in the contract.
I think it speaks to him as a player/person that the coaches completely wrote him off from the jump and then did complete turnaround on him as a player. Enough to bring him back. He helps open things up for the rest of the offense. If he's cheaper than what Chark comes in, which he should be, I think it's a decent re-signing. We upgraded our speed at slot and TE while retaining our fastest WR. Leaves to door open to draft a WR high without being desperate.
I agree with high motor Jim.
People really shit on Slayton a lot. He's definitely viable as a 4th WR + Depth signing. WRs are going to get injured, there's 0% chance they all stay healthy. But with Slayton, there's decent depth at the position, even if it lacks the Alpha #1 WR.
Wandale, Hodgins, Shepard, Campbell, Slayton, and even Richie James -- as long as 2 of those guys are healthy at any given time, at least we'll have more than 1 NFL Quality WR on the field. That's more than we an say for some of the games we've had in the past couple years.
I would guess similar but less incentivized for health and more in base/guarantees.
That said, there's some upside with several of them, and this appears to be a group where they're gambling on the sum being greater than the parts.
I think it speaks to him as a player/person that the coaches completely wrote him off from the jump and then did complete turnaround on him as a player. Enough to bring him back. He helps open things up for the rest of the offense. If he's cheaper than what Chark comes in, which he should be, I think it's a decent re-signing. We upgraded our speed at slot and TE while retaining our fastest WR. Leaves to door open to draft a WR high without being desperate.
Exactly. I’m shocked to be honest. I’m assuming that the contract is very team friendly.
That said, there's some upside with several of them, and this appears to be a group where they're gambling on the sum being greater than the parts.
I'd be very surprised if we didn't add a WR with one of our first two picks and completely shocked if one wasn't selected on the first two days.
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Unless you consider that to be Waller, the Giants have a collection of speedy receivers that can function as a WR3-5.
That said, there's some upside with several of them, and this appears to be a group where they're gambling on the sum being greater than the parts.
I'd be very surprised if we didn't add a WR with one of our first two picks and completely shocked if one wasn't selected on the first two days.
I’d be shocked if we don’t take one at 25 and I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see a trade up for a wr either. Ila #1 wr is by far our biggest need
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Unless you consider that to be Waller, the Giants have a collection of speedy receivers that can function as a WR3-5.
That said, there's some upside with several of them, and this appears to be a group where they're gambling on the sum being greater than the parts.
I'd be very surprised if we didn't add a WR with one of our first two picks and completely shocked if one wasn't selected on the first two days.
We really need someone that can draw double teams. Is that going to be Waller?
That said, there's some upside with several of them, and this appears to be a group where they're gambling on the sum being greater than the parts.
I don’t think it’s a gamble, they want to improve our #1 WR and the deals for one fell through so far.
Giants essentially swapped out James for a better, faster version (Campbell), added an elite receiving threat at TE (Waller) and will get guys like Robinson/Shep back into the fold.
They upgrade Marcus Johnson to Jeff Smith as well as a WR6 type, and still have Collin Johnson who will compete for a job.
The weapons around Jones have gotten better - through both quality and quantity.
Considering there were games where Marcus Johnson and Sills started last year, the Giants are in a much better position heading into 23.
I also would not rule out a draft pick at the spot- though I think they look CB, DL, and C in the first 3 rounds. Possibly a guy like Jared Wayne or Rakim Jarrett later in the draft.
And if Waller gets shelved? Which he prob will….giants still need to make a move for a true #1
Jeudy, aiyuk, Higgins, Hopkins
Or maybe a move up for Johnston
Either way another move has to happen. I would NOT feel good about this wr core being complete as is
Thus is life with our cap space. I didn’t expect the WR room to be solved but there’s a good chance it stays as bad as last year with 1-2 injuries.
Hopefully they find contributors in the mid rounds.
(To be clear I don’t hate Waller or Campbell moves, but there’s a reason cost was generally low on both)
We really need someone that can draw double teams. Is that going to be Waller?
That was the reason for the Waller dice roll. If he is healthy, he is that guy. He's 6'6 and ran a 4.45 coming out and knows how to run routes like a WR. Not many guys whether they be CB, LB or S can match up with him one on one. We just need to hope that he stays healthy and doesn't lose anything. A little gamble there.
We have this years draft and maybe next years draft to identify a #1 WR. It wasn't happening outside of a blockbuster trade this year. These smaller moves give you a chance to identify one through the draft.
We should al have 5th and 6th rounders stay around this long
If we do -with Waller - the other WRs will be fine
Why? Could be WR, CB, ER...
yeah I hope not...CB seems to be way more of a priority than WR...and the CB top end of the draft is way more exciting than the WR class.
I like Zay Flowers a lot but he is also undersized. Might be best to wait one more year to get a #1 type WR.
Waller helps a lot too.
The WR room is:
Hodgins.
Slayton.
Campbell.
Smith.
Everyone else is a journeyman. Campbell might be a #2, but even if so, we still need a #1.
I don't think these signings affect what the Giants will do at #25. The pick should still be BPA, whether that is a WR or any other position.
The #Giants’ deal with Darius Slayton: Two years, $12 million base value with a max value of $16.5 million, source says
Why not?! I don't think we have a #1 on the roster yet. We need the 1 Alpha Dog in the WR room and we don't have him yet. If anything, if there's a WR that's BPA at 25, I think it's very strong possibility. Remember we also only have some of these guys for another year.
12 million. 16.5M max
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And if Waller gets shelved? Which he prob will….giants still need to make a move for a true #1
Jeudy, aiyuk, Higgins, Hopkins
Hopkins is the only true #1 of those 4, and I actually love Jeudy and Higgins as players, loved them in college as well. Higgins has been playing the role of Alvin Harper opposite Chase. I wouldn’t classify him as a true 1 as he has not had to operate as one yet. Same with Jeudy. They’d still be the best wide receivers on the Giants roster if we were to acquire them for sure…but it would not be like Philly nabbing AJ Brown who I would take over either in a heartbeat.
Would still rather invest through the draft.
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Mike Garafolo @MikeGarafolo
The #Giants’ deal with Darius Slayton: Two years, $12 million base value with a max value of $16.5 million, source says
I gotta admit, this one has me scratching my head.
WR1 - Hodgy
WR2 - Slayton
WR3 - Parris
WR4 - Shep
WR5 - Wandale
WR6 - Collin Johnson
WR7 - Jeff Smith
WR 8- Washington
Each one of those guys is one rung too high on the totem pole. If you got a true WR1 the picture would NOW be complete.
I get Waller is almost like having a borderline WR1 but there is a lot of injury risk in the line-up too.
However you could make the argument if we go WR/CB round 1 which ever is the better graded guy in round 1, you have a chance to end up with:
Rd 1: JSN, Addison, Johnston, Flowers
Rd 2: TYLER SCOTT, Josh Downs, Cedric Tillman, Jayden Reed, Michael Wilson
I get the frustration, who would you like to see us go out and get? There are no topend FAs and the guys being shopped are either old or their team is asking for a #1.
anyone who thought he was getting the minimum has no concept of free agency and the wr position. they literally gave him almost exactly what every projection said he was getting.
BBI Meltdown in 3…2…1…
Hope he has a breakout year.
12 million. 16.5M max
NFW...if Schoen did that, I am flabbergasted..
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Max value of $16.5 m. Right what I said he’d get when everyone called him a minimum player
BBI Meltdown in 3…2…1…
the meltdown is going to be if love signs for a comparable amount elsewhere, and i dont think that will necessarily be wrong if it happens. id bring back love all day before slayton.
12 million. 16.5M max
Hope he improves his drops.
Hope he has a breakout year.
Probably not, but apparently the Falcons were bidders:
https://www.sportstalkatl.com/falcons-reportedly-have-contract-offer-pending-for-free-agent-wr-darius-slayton/
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In comment 16067337 ajr2456 said:
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Max value of $16.5 m. Right what I said he’d get when everyone called him a minimum player
BBI Meltdown in 3…2…1…
the meltdown is going to be if love signs for a comparable amount elsewhere, and i dont think that will necessarily be wrong if it happens. id bring back love all day before slayton.
100%
It's a tough pill to swallow, but Slayton is actually one of the better FAs at the position this offseason. Now, that's of course more of an indictment on the FA crop, but the point remains - they need bodies, and most of the options were a downgrade from Slayton.
It's a good move.
That’s the Kenny Goldiday version of a contact for a guy you know is a #4 WR
It's a tough pill to swallow, but Slayton is actually one of the better FAs at the position this offseason. Now, that's of course more of an indictment on the FA crop, but the point remains - they need bodies, and most of the options were a downgrade from Slayton.
It's a good move.
Galloway had one touchdown last year. Slayton had two, and none after Week 10.
Hope he has a breakout year.
agree but here's 2 minor glimmers of hope,
1- his rookie year he caught the ball. it's an outlier of his entire career even back to college, but he did it. so maybe he can do it again.
2- his run after catch improved a lot last year in this offense. that wasn't something he did particularly well even in 2019, when he was more of an over the top deep threat.
but like i said i generally agree, i think they paid an uncomfortable amount for a frustratingly flawed player.
Awful deal and I don't get it. I really don't get it. He's what? At BEST a #3/#4 WR?
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He's had better production than many of the names thrown around here. The drops aren't great, but looking at drop rates for other guys on the market like Chark tell a different story.
It's a tough pill to swallow, but Slayton is actually one of the better FAs at the position this offseason. Now, that's of course more of an indictment on the FA crop, but the point remains - they need bodies, and most of the options were a downgrade from Slayton.
It's a good move.
Galloway had one touchdown last year. Slayton had two, and none after Week 10.
and 1 of his 2 tds may have actually been a drop that just wasnt conclusive enough to over turn (against jax).
That’s the Kenny Goldiday version of a contact for a guy you know is a #4 WR
Overreaction much? Slayton is on pace to have a better career than KG and he came much cheaper.
Hodgins
Slayton
Campbell
Robinson
Johnson
Shepard
High draft pick (likely round one or two)
He is not a starting caliber NFL receiver
I’m waiting/hoping for low guaranteed $
The WRs that will be available at 25 are smaller, slot guys. That's not the KIND of WR they really need (and Schoen even said something to that effect in the last video). That's WHY they're addressing WR in FA.
They are more likely to take a less polished, bigger guy later -- one that could grow into a #1.
Would not be surprised if he really pushed his opinion a bit with Daboll and Schoen too.
That said, I'm not in love with the WR room. I still think they add a WR in draft.
Obviously the Giants are - and know much more than I do
I’m still hopeful the contact cannot be as dumb as it seems
Have they restructured Williams and Jackson but not announced the deals.
I would have hoped they would address the IOL but maybe in the draft.
The WRs that will be available at 25 are smaller, slot guys. That's not the KIND of WR they really need (and Schoen even said something to that effect in the last video). That's WHY they're addressing WR in FA.
They are more likely to take a less polished, bigger guy later -- one that could grow into a #1.
There is a terrific chance they still take a WR in the first, and almost guaranteed one in first three rounds. The WR room is all short term. Shepard really should be retired now, but he'll be gone in a year. Campbell is a one year lottery ticket, and Jeff Smith is a last spot/STer type at this point.
We don't know how Wandale will come back until later next year, and Hodgins needs to prove he is for real over a full season, not just a few games.
WR1 - Hodgy
WR2 - Slayton
WR3 - Parris
WR4 - Shep
WR5 - Wandale
WR6 - Collin Johnson
WR7 - Jeff Smith
WR 8- Washington
I don’t think that will be the batting order if all those guys are completely healthy. That’s a huge if though, so it will be interesting to see how it plays itself out…still think they will use a premium pick on a WR in the draft, either a 1st or. 2nd. I have no idea what Sheo/Wandale will bring coming off the injuries which clouds things.
What's bizarre is Slayton getting paid better than Parris Campbell.
But would he have been starting on any other team in the NFL but the Giants?
He’s not a 1 or 2 but I think he’s a decent 3 or 4 WR, hard worker, and a guy who didn’t quit after he was basically told he was on borrowed time on the roster last season.
Slayton earned this and I’m glad to see him remain on the team.
The WRs that will be available at 25 are smaller, slot guys. That's not the KIND of WR they really need (and Schoen even said something to that effect in the last video). That's WHY they're addressing WR in FA.
They are more likely to take a less polished, bigger guy later -- one that could grow into a #1.
If I had to guess now, I would say that they go with a WR with a high selection in the next two drafts. You are right though, that the WR they take this year is unlikely to be that traditional bigger X. Doesn't mean a slot/Z type can't develop into a player defenses need to account for or that they won't draft one. I think a guy like Zay Flowers fits in very well with this group actually. I wouldn't prioritize a WR if they had a CB or Edge/DL ranked a lot higher but a traditional "#1 WR" doesn't need to be taken. These are all short term bandaids, there's still a whole unit to build out beyond this year.
They don't have their WR1/X guy yet but that may have to come through the draft.
DHop is expensive contract, expensive to acquire, and been injured. Jeudy is good with potential, but will cost a lot to acquire and salary hikes in a year, and isnt a #1 (yet?)
Instead, for the cost of a very late #3 pick and $20m in cap (which is low end 1, high end #2 WR now) they instead added a ton of speed, and a LOT of depth at a position that and ZZERO depth.
Alternative was to acquire a 1, lose a high pick, spend a lot of cap on one guy who would get double teamed all year with no one to help him.
3rd and 4 - how do you defend this D?
1) DHop and no one - triple team DHop, spy on Jones - and get the punt return team ready.
2) Waller/Bellinger line up in two TE. With Slayton and Campbell wide, Barkley out of the backfield, and threat of Jones running. Thats a LOT for a defense to think about. No ONE guy is going to beat you, but you now have 6 options as an offense: pass to TE, pass to WR deep, Barkley underneath, or Jones running.
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For a starting outside WR. Expectations of the market were too low. Mecole should come in around the same or higher. Chark should come in higher. Theilen will come in higher. That is the cost of a low end "starter".
But would he have been starting on any other team in the NFL but the Giants?
A handful. Bears, Falcons, Texans off the top of my head. I did say low end. Your average starter is making almost 2x that, we saw Meyers, Lazard and Juju get 11m/yr.
Would not be surprised if he really pushed his opinion a bit with Daboll and Schoen too.
That said, I'm not in love with the WR room. I still think they add a WR in draft.
I think this was it. Slayton is a mediocre receiver but Jones has a big comfort level with him.
What a turnaround for Slayton though. The Giants were trying to trade him before the season last year but found no takers. He was buried on the depth chart and now he gets a 2 year deal.
The WRs that will be available at 25 are smaller, slot guys. That's not the KIND of WR they really need (and Schoen even said something to that effect in the last video). That's WHY they're addressing WR in FA.
They are more likely to take a less polished, bigger guy later -- one that could grow into a #1.
I don’t see it like that. I think they just want playmakers, regardless of the shape or size.Diggs is not a bigger WR, and he operated just fine as buffalos top target so if there were a guy in that mold you would pass on him as he wasn’t a bigger body? I wouldn’t.
How can both be true?
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He's had better production than many of the names thrown around here. The drops aren't great, but looking at drop rates for other guys on the market like Chark tell a different story.
It's a tough pill to swallow, but Slayton is actually one of the better FAs at the position this offseason. Now, that's of course more of an indictment on the FA crop, but the point remains - they need bodies, and most of the options were a downgrade from Slayton.
It's a good move.
Galloway had one touchdown last year. Slayton had two, and none after Week 10.
He's produced every year he's been here, with the exception of '21 when he was injured. He gets an inordinate amount of crap but he kept working and became a valuable piece of the offense. Coaches wanted him back, apparently.
But what do I know?
I'd like to know what your definition of "production" is?
We need another WR, but I'm still convinced we'll take the BPA at #25 even if that's not a WR.
Still also think that's a crazy contract for Slayton, and that he's making so much more than Campbell. Was Jones really pushing for the Giants to resign Slayton? Rodgers pushed for the Packers to trade for Cobb so I guess it's possible.
#1 still remains our biggest need, IMO.
I don't mind Slayton. I mind that contract.
But what do I know?
They are fairly similar. Campbell is 5-7 really just with protections for games missed given his injury history, assuming Slayton is 6-8 based on general details released. Slayton plays outside which has more value than a slot WR as well.
What's bizarre is Slayton getting paid better than Parris Campbell.
Not if you look at their career production or 2022 production. Campbell also had 5 drops.
If you're looking objectively, Slayton makes more sense than a guy like DJ Chark, who has been a dud for the last three years.
Parris Campbell Combine 40 4.31
Jeff Smith Pro Day 40 4.36
Schoen has talked about the need for wide receiver separation in every recent interview.
How can both be true?
Parris Campbell Combine 40 4.31
Jeff Smith Pro Day 40 4.36
Schoen has talked about the need for wide receiver separation in every recent interview.
Which is great, but it isn't a track meet. They need to be able to catch the ball. All three have drop problems (Campbell to a lesser degree, but still had 5 drops last season).
What's bizarre is Slayton getting paid better than Parris Campbell.
I find the Slayton contract a bit higher than I imagined, but he's been more available and more productive than PC.
Thus, Slayton should be compensated more - IMV.
Shepard is another guy who doesn't score.
Darius Slayton was handed the starting job last year and he scored twice. He disappeared against teams like the Eagles and Cowboys, which is kind of a big deal.
The contract does not matter as I doubt there's going to be a ton of guaranteed money and it's like the 40th largest AAV for a WR.
Slayton, Hodgins, Campbell, Robinson, Shepard, Smith. There's way more talent in that group than what the team had last year. Slayton, Campbell, and Smith mean we have 3 guys with 4.3 speed vs only Slayton. Daboll and Kafka have more speed to work into this offense. Keep adding talent in the draft.
I'd be cool with that
We will see what the actual contract is
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good news is the WR position looks a bit more stable than it did 24 hours ago.
What's bizarre is Slayton getting paid better than Parris Campbell.
I find the Slayton contract a bit higher than I imagined, but he's been more available and more productive than PC.
Thus, Slayton should be compensated more - IMV.
It will be interesting to see the final numbers after the 2023 season as to who has the more productive season. My money is on Campbell, by a lot.
We need another WR, but I'm still convinced we'll take the BPA at #25 even if that's not a WR.
Still also think that's a crazy contract for Slayton, and that he's making so much more than Campbell. Was Jones really pushing for the Giants to resign Slayton? Rodgers pushed for the Packers to trade for Cobb so I guess it's possible.
Slayton is a more valuable player than Campbell. He’s been the Giants leading receiver 3 out of 4 years. Campbell had missed more games than he’s played 3 of the last 4 years.
Slayton has proven he can play outside at a competent level. Campbell has not. Outside receivers are valued more than slots. That’s why outside receivers usually get selected before slot guys in the draft. They are harder to find.
I really don’t understand the hate for Slayton around here. He was the only player on the offense last year who could generate passing plays of 20+ yards.
I’m glad to have him back.
Also WDR will play next year. He may even avoid pup. Haven’t heard anything that makes me think he’ll be out all year.
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In comment 16067395 Eric from BBI said:
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good news is the WR position looks a bit more stable than it did 24 hours ago.
What's bizarre is Slayton getting paid better than Parris Campbell.
I find the Slayton contract a bit higher than I imagined, but he's been more available and more productive than PC.
Thus, Slayton should be compensated more - IMV.
It will be interesting to see the final numbers after the 2023 season as to who has the more productive season. My money is on Campbell, by a lot.
If Campbell can remain healthy!
He only had 46 catches and two touchdowns. That's not productive for a guy who started 11 games.
I think a lot of this is a misunderstanding of the Campbell deal. If he is healthy the entire season it's a 1yr 4.7m deal. He doesn't even need to catch a ball, just needs to be healthy. There are additional performance based incentives to get that close to 7m. Not sure how attainable they are.
But Campbell isn't really 1yr 3M. If he is then the Giants never saw him play a snap.
Shepard is another guy who doesn't score.
Darius Slayton was handed the starting job last year and he scored twice. He disappeared against teams like the Eagles and Cowboys, which is kind of a big deal.
I get that he is far from perfect, but he fills a role that no other receiver on our team currently has shown they can fill. We need someone other than Waller that can beat people vertically and hopefully Waller is that 1A guy that gets the scores consistently. The other names somewhat connected to us (Theilen, Chark, Hardman) haven't shown that ability recently or ever.
Campbell...solidly built, blazing speed, good catch % in theory can play the outside, but for whatever reason has not been a consistent chunk play guy dating back to college. I like his upside with Daboll.
What's bizarre is Slayton getting paid better than Parris Campbell.
I find the Slayton contract a bit higher than I imagined, but he's been more available and more productive than PC.
Thus, Slayton should be compensated more - IMV.
It will be interesting to see the final numbers after the 2023 season as to who has the more productive season. My money is on Campbell, by a lot.
Fine with me. From your keyboard to God's ears.
Campbell has been a major disappointment so far as a second-round pick. Hopefully, the change of scenery helps.
He only had 46 catches and two touchdowns. That's not productive for a guy who started 11 games.
agreed
he was just better than a practice squad guy or a street FA
but he is a #4 type WR, maybe a 3 if you have two good ones ahead of himn
Parris C may be a bit better
so basically we have gone froma few 4th stringers to a more professional wr room with a bunch of wr3/4
wandale could be a 2/3 same with hodgins
its a better room but still need some pedigree wouls assume a WR in first two rds
Well played, Giants FO.
I may have prefered James back over either of them.
Maybe this was a Jones ask sonce the 2 have had a connection back to their rookie year.
He only had 46 catches and two touchdowns. That's not productive for a guy who started 11 games.
Slayton was victimized by the Quarte...uh...forget it. ;)
Look, the passing game was not going to be prolific by design. We were a running team led by SB and Jones. The passing game was "as needed".
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by posters who keep saying that Slayton was "productive."
He only had 46 catches and two touchdowns. That's not productive for a guy who started 11 games.
Slayton was victimized by the Quarte...uh...forget it. ;)
Look, the passing game was not going to be prolific by design. We were a running team led by SB and Jones. The passing game was "as needed".
You make ridiculous/personal bias statements sometimes. Clearly, Daboll in the last few games opened up the passing game as best he could with limited WRs. Look at Barkley's carries.
Every significant offensive move this offseason has been to strengthen the passing game.
2. they spent about 11m cumulatively on 2 guys who arent 'reliable'. maybe having 2 guys is better than one, and maybe one or both are about to take a leap, but 1 of them hasnt stayed healthy and the other cant catch.
i think campbell is a pretty reasonable upgrade on richie james with upside but im a little surprised they didn't just sign 1 better player, specifically hardman but perhaps even jakobi meyers. this was a crappy year for FA WRs but paying a lot more to just set a similar floor to last year is a little disappointing even though Waller obviously raises the ceiling of the offense overall. hopefully he's a force multiplier and slayton can get back to winning over the top in single coverage again like his rookie year.
Agree. They would be stupid to do that now. You have to go Oline or CB.
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by posters who keep saying that Slayton was "productive."
He only had 46 catches and two touchdowns. That's not productive for a guy who started 11 games.
Slayton was victimized by the Quarte...uh...forget it. ;)
Look, the passing game was not going to be prolific by design. We were a running team led by SB and Jones. The passing game was "as needed".
yes, but the passing game can be improved with better players
Sure they’re not.
If you look at advanced stats only 53 of those 71 targets were deemed catchable targets as well so he basically hauled in 87% of catchable balls. Its not like this guy doesn't have any talent and I like him more than the other receivers that were still available.
Lazard = 788 (15 starts)
Slayton = 724 (11 starts)
Meyers = 804 (13 starts)
Boyd = 762 (14 starts)
Thielen = 716 Yards (17 starts)
I don't like this quantity over quality approach
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In comment 16067457 Eric from BBI said:
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by posters who keep saying that Slayton was "productive."
He only had 46 catches and two touchdowns. That's not productive for a guy who started 11 games.
Slayton was victimized by the Quarte...uh...forget it. ;)
Look, the passing game was not going to be prolific by design. We were a running team led by SB and Jones. The passing game was "as needed".
yes, but the passing game can be improved with better players
I was writing about last year's approach to the passing game. Not what we might look like going forward...
The WRs that will be available at 25 are smaller, slot guys. That's not the KIND of WR they really need (and Schoen even said something to that effect in the last video). That's WHY they're addressing WR in FA.
They are more likely to take a less polished, bigger guy later -- one that could grow into a #1.
I love when people talk in absolutes about the draft and who the Giants will or won’t take like they work in the FO.
You LITERALLY, have no clue who they’ll take. Just stop.
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I also think there's a good chance they bring back James to compete with Campbell.
I don't like this quantity over quality approach
What's the alternative? You want to trade a 1st for Jeudy or anything for an old Hopkins? They didn't make the menu of available players. They're picking from it.
Hope he has a breakout year.
I agree. This seems like an awful lot. I like Slayton. Seems like a good kid but I feel about him the Same I did about engram. Although he will make some nice plays he’s also going to kill you at times
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Agree. They would be stupid to do that now. You have to go Oline or CB.
Why? Because the WR crops is now complete after these FA signings? That’s ridiculous. None of the guys in the roster are a #1 receiver. WR is still a huge need.
If he is anything more than a 5th or 6th WR we are in trouble.
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In comment 16067490 christian said:
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I also think there's a good chance they bring back James to compete with Campbell.
I don't like this quantity over quality approach
What's the alternative? You want to trade a 1st for Jeudy or anything for an old Hopkins? They didn't make the menu of available players. They're picking from it.
Pying Slayton 6M per isn't the answer. Focus on the Draft. It's a good draft for WRs as far as depth goes. That's where you find your depth.
i think there's almost no chance of that unless james has no market whatsoever. he is probably going to get a similar contract to campbell someplace else, and want a reasonably clear path to playing time so he can hit whatever incentives he gets (as im sure campbell wanted as well).
hodgins, slayton, campbell are going to be 3 on the final 53 and it's enormously likely a 4th spot is filled by at least 1 rookie and probably 2. shepard and robinson likely on PUP. sills, johnson, smith, pimpleton, etc all competing for PS spots and maybe 1 active roster spot for a ST'er.
We don't have one.
Hope he has a breakout year.
Relax. What are the guarantee's?
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In comment 16067470 bw in dc said:
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In comment 16067457 Eric from BBI said:
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by posters who keep saying that Slayton was "productive."
He only had 46 catches and two touchdowns. That's not productive for a guy who started 11 games.
Slayton was victimized by the Quarte...uh...forget it. ;)
Look, the passing game was not going to be prolific by design. We were a running team led by SB and Jones. The passing game was "as needed".
yes, but the passing game can be improved with better players
I was writing about last year's approach to the passing game. Not what we might look like going forward...
I know, but the objective should have been to improve the worst wr group in the NFL. Do you agree?
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I also think there's a good chance they bring back James to compete with Campbell.
I don't like this quantity over quality approach
Sure but prior to FA, every guy under contract is coming off of an injury.
Shep
Wandale
Johnson
..they NEED bodies. They went the route of multiple mid tier guys vs 1 higher cost player and a bunch of literal nobodies. What's better?
We should al have 5th and 6th rounders stay around this long
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In comment 16067495 Anakim said:
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In comment 16067490 christian said:
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I also think there's a good chance they bring back James to compete with Campbell.
I don't like this quantity over quality approach
What's the alternative? You want to trade a 1st for Jeudy or anything for an old Hopkins? They didn't make the menu of available players. They're picking from it.
Pying Slayton 6M per isn't the answer. Focus on the Draft. It's a good draft for WRs as far as depth goes. That's where you find your depth.
So do we trust the front office and the coach or not?
He only had 46 catches and two touchdowns. That's not productive for a guy who started 11 games.
Not sure what there is to be floored about? You can recognize that a guy has some value while understanding that he’s not a great player. Look at the totality of his time here and his production compared to where he was drafted.
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In comment 16067495 Anakim said:
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In comment 16067490 christian said:
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I also think there's a good chance they bring back James to compete with Campbell.
I don't like this quantity over quality approach
What's the alternative? You want to trade a 1st for Jeudy or anything for an old Hopkins? They didn't make the menu of available players. They're picking from it.
Pying Slayton 6M per isn't the answer. Focus on the Draft. It's a good draft for WRs as far as depth goes. That's where you find your depth.
It's basically a 1-year deal with all the guaranteed money in 2023. This deal doesn't change their draft plans. Every receiver they signed is basically not committed to after this season besides Wandale
Cap.
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by posters who keep saying that Slayton was "productive."
He only had 46 catches and two touchdowns. That's not productive for a guy who started 11 games.
Not sure what there is to be floored about? You can recognize that a guy has some value while understanding that he’s not a great player. Look at the totality of his time here and his production compared to where he was drafted.
He was just paid 6M a year.
What's bizarre is Slayton getting paid better than Parris Campbell.
One thing we know for sure: had they given Campbell the contract they gave Slayton, they would be overpaying. Since he signed one for less.
He only had 46 catches and two touchdowns. That's not productive for a guy who started 11 games.
I’m equally as floored with people outright claiming that WR is not a need in round 1 since they’ve made these signings.
-a sizeable contingent of posters
[Slayton tests market. Presumably not great. Re-signs with the Giants, likely as a 4th receiver]
"This move sucks"
-same contingent
They want to be a run first team. That means you can find a way to run for sufficient yardage against most opponents. They're not there yet. If they can do that, play action opens up and all receivers look better. And he knows the system.
Not sure what some posters expect. Front office is being smart and methodical.
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They want to be a run first team. That means you can find a way to run for sufficient yardage against most opponents. They're not there yet. If they can do that, play action opens up and all receivers look better. And he knows the system.
Not sure what some posters expect. Front office is being smart and methodical. link - ( New Window )
Do they want to be a run first team? Or were they simply forced to operate that way last season?
If we lose that WC game vs. the Vikes, is Darius back after that killer drop? I'd love to know that in an alternate universe. I'm glad it didn't cost us the game, but it sure AF could have.
yep probably get a #2 type, which might be the best guy in the room
also have to factor in waller getting alot of targets and being split
all in all, better targets for DJ
still need to improve but more talent at least (especially if we draft a good target)
2024 we go for the stud
I know, but the objective should have been to improve the worst wr group in the NFL. Do you agree?
It's a poor FA pool of WRs. The only way to get significantly better was trade and/or draft.
We obtained Waller by trade, and he is a great player who needs to stay healthy. Which has been challenging lately. So, we'll see there.
It's a decent draft for WRs. I'm not sure if there is a clear cut WR1 - TBD - but there are probably 10-12 who can legitimately be called good WR2 prospects. And we should have a few cracks at adding one or two.
So Joe schoen and Brian Daboll then.
Weird hill to fight for.
Had a great rookie year considering.
He can get open but needs to RUN the routes correctly and stop peeking down the field before locking in the ball. Some of this stuff can be fixed
Raw talent and speed cannot.
Young Slay Tweet - ( New Window )
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I know, but the objective should have been to improve the worst wr group in the NFL. Do you agree?
It's a poor FA pool of WRs. The only way to get significantly better was trade and/or draft.
We obtained Waller by trade, and he is a great player who needs to stay healthy. Which has been challenging lately. So, we'll see there.
It's a decent draft for WRs. I'm not sure if there is a clear cut WR1 - TBD - but there are probably 10-12 who can legitimately be called good WR2 prospects. And we should have a few cracks at adding one or two.
That's my issue- I think by resigning a WR4/5 at WR2 value, we remove the possibility of taking a chance on say AT Perry at the very least. It's possible we just removed Jordan Addison.
That’s the logic that’s been thrown around here.
Lazard got 11 million a year. The Giants weren’t trading a 1st or 2nd for a receiver that is either on a big contract or is going to need one soon. Jeudy has drops issues too. This contract is right inline with Slaytons value, and if he was on a team other than the Giants this year I think a lot of people who dislike this move would be asking about bringing him in.
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anyone who thinks otherwise can turn in their evaluation card.
So Joe schoen and Brian Daboll then.
Weird hill to fight for.
This was a bad move. Their only one so far by my estimation- had to be Danny calling for it.
If his annual is 6 million a year he's making less money than players on rookie deals
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In comment 16067530 Gmen88 said:
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anyone who thinks otherwise can turn in their evaluation card.
So Joe schoen and Brian Daboll then.
Weird hill to fight for.
This was a bad move. Their only one so far by my estimation- had to be Danny calling for it.
This line works when the GM is gettleman. It does not work when the coach and GM have taken a 4 win team to 9 wins and a playoff win. It's not credible.
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In comment 16067567 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 16067530 Gmen88 said:
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anyone who thinks otherwise can turn in their evaluation card.
So Joe schoen and Brian Daboll then.
Weird hill to fight for.
This was a bad move. Their only one so far by my estimation- had to be Danny calling for it.
This line works when the GM is gettleman. It does not work when the coach and GM have taken a 4 win team to 9 wins and a playoff win. It's not credible.
What do you think of Slayton as a WR? I'm curious.
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anyone who thinks otherwise can turn in their evaluation card.
So Joe schoen and Brian Daboll then.
Weird hill to fight for.
You think Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll knows more than Gmen88! Come on Bro!
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In comment 16067530 Gmen88 said:
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anyone who thinks otherwise can turn in their evaluation card.
So Joe schoen and Brian Daboll then.
Weird hill to fight for.
You think Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll knows more than Gmen88! Come on Bro!
Well obviously, but being to close can lead to bad decisions in any industry. I loved the hires of both of them- this was a bad decision.
for similar reasons to players we've seen in the past make such glaring mistakes (engram, randle, donnell) i wouldn't have brought slayton back unless the contract was more slanted towards the team in value. those plays are backbreakers and they seem to happen at the most pressure filled moments (red zone, 2 min drill, etc).
id imagine it was some of those same reasons why schoen and daboll were going to cut slayton at 2.5m last year if he didnt take a paycut below that.
i think there were other players available in FA who would have been better adds but i hope their faith in slayton rewards them. he seems like a good guy and a total non-diva also so he's a pretty easy guy to root for, and it will be easier if he stops dropping 1 ball for every 5 he catches.
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In comment 16067585 Gmen88 said:
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In comment 16067567 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 16067530 Gmen88 said:
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anyone who thinks otherwise can turn in their evaluation card.
So Joe schoen and Brian Daboll then.
Weird hill to fight for.
This was a bad move. Their only one so far by my estimation- had to be Danny calling for it.
This line works when the GM is gettleman. It does not work when the coach and GM have taken a 4 win team to 9 wins and a playoff win. It's not credible.
What do you think of Slayton as a WR? I'm curious.
As Ive said in other threads, he's a #3 WR with the speed to back off a defense.
Guys with his speed, his ability to stay healthy, and frankly his production, make decent money in this league.
Giants fans crush him for the drops and as a result downplay his skillset, but he's a solid football player for a 5th round pick. If they did more winning during Slayton's time here he would be looked at as a find rather than a disposable part.
I think you are both saying the same thing. These guys provide a solid floor but no major ceiling until we add a legit 1.
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In comment 16067567 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 16067530 Gmen88 said:
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anyone who thinks otherwise can turn in their evaluation card.
So Joe schoen and Brian Daboll then.
Weird hill to fight for.
You think Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll knows more than Gmen88! Come on Bro!
Well obviously, but being to close can lead to bad decisions in any industry. I loved the hires of both of them- this was a bad decision.
Spoken as a scout? Or a GM... sorry what are your credentials? Exactly... You get an opinion it just probably isn't right. Slayton was very good for us and he does what most other WRs in our offense can't do... take the top off.
Link - ( New Window )
link - ( New Window )
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In comment 16067594 Amtoft said:
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In comment 16067567 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 16067530 Gmen88 said:
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anyone who thinks otherwise can turn in their evaluation card.
So Joe schoen and Brian Daboll then.
Weird hill to fight for.
You think Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll knows more than Gmen88! Come on Bro!
Well obviously, but being to close can lead to bad decisions in any industry. I loved the hires of both of them- this was a bad decision.
Spoken as a scout? Or a GM... sorry what are your credentials? Exactly... You get an opinion it just probably isn't right. Slayton was very good for us and he does what most other WRs in our offense can't do... take the top off.
Spoken as none of your business but knowing and paid as more than you. Slayton was the best of a bad situation- please stop talking.
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In comment 16067606 Gmen88 said:
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In comment 16067594 Amtoft said:
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In comment 16067567 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 16067530 Gmen88 said:
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anyone who thinks otherwise can turn in their evaluation card.
So Joe schoen and Brian Daboll then.
Weird hill to fight for.
You think Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll knows more than Gmen88! Come on Bro!
Well obviously, but being to close can lead to bad decisions in any industry. I loved the hires of both of them- this was a bad decision.
Spoken as a scout? Or a GM... sorry what are your credentials? Exactly... You get an opinion it just probably isn't right. Slayton was very good for us and he does what most other WRs in our offense can't do... take the top off.
Spoken as none of your business but knowing and paid as more than you. Slayton was the best of a bad situation- please stop talking.
Oh big man... yes whatever you say... you know so much and make so much money... you are such a big man... I should totally stop talking. hahaha you can't make that post up.
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In comment 16067616 Amtoft said:
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In comment 16067606 Gmen88 said:
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In comment 16067594 Amtoft said:
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In comment 16067567 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 16067530 Gmen88 said:
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anyone who thinks otherwise can turn in their evaluation card.
So Joe schoen and Brian Daboll then.
Weird hill to fight for.
You think Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll knows more than Gmen88! Come on Bro!
Well obviously, but being to close can lead to bad decisions in any industry. I loved the hires of both of them- this was a bad decision.
Spoken as a scout? Or a GM... sorry what are your credentials? Exactly... You get an opinion it just probably isn't right. Slayton was very good for us and he does what most other WRs in our offense can't do... take the top off.
Spoken as none of your business but knowing and paid as more than you. Slayton was the best of a bad situation- please stop talking.
Oh big man... yes whatever you say... you know so much and make so much money... you are such a big man... I should totally stop talking. hahaha you can't make that post up.
This is pathetic lol get back to football talk
Spoken as a scout? Or a GM... sorry what are your credentials? Exactly... You get an opinion it just probably isn't right. Slayton was very good for us and he does what most other WRs in our offense can't do... take the top off.
You are overrating him. He was not "very good" for the Giants. He was functional. I think saying he is a #3 or #4 is correct. He does stay healthy which is a plus. He does have speed, also a plus. His hands are marginal - a negative. But, he does match up well with Jones - they seem to read each other well.
See what Daboll and Kafka can do...
having as many drops as players who get 2-3x as many targets isn't good.
the last 2 years slayton has been worst in the league in drop%.
league average is like 7% so slayton is dropping 2x league average.
alternatives like jakobi meyers were 1.5% & juju was 3.3%.
spending this much on UFAs wasn't something i expected so if there's something they may end up regretting i think it may be giving slayton + campbell roughly the same aav combined as they could have just given 1 of those guys. they are taking 2 fliers on upside guys instead of just adding 1 more proven above average starter.
Exactly my sentiments as well, anybody remember his gag job against the Vikes late in the game in the playoffs...
I thought so!
He didn’t have a single season with over 200 yards receiving until this past year.
Slayton might not be that good but he’s had way more of a productive career than Campbell. Why does Campbell deserve a higher contract than Slayton? That makes no sense whatsoever.
If Slayton were a 26 year old with sub 4.4 and a high ADOT and low drop rate he’d have gotten PAID. Also if you look at the high drop % players you see a theme on the type of WRs they are.
If Slayton were a 26 year old with sub 4.4 and a high ADOT and low drop rate he’d have gotten PAID. Also if you look at the high drop % players you see a theme on the type of WRs they are.
you are correct about adot/style - slayton selling point is that he's a more explosive downfield receiver (15 ypc).
slayton adot = 12.5
juju adot = 7.3
meyers = 9.9
but as u see meyers' adot wasn't too far behind, and neither was his ypc at 12.0. he had 14 plays 20+ and that was actually more than slayton's 12. and more tds.
that's all why meyers got basically 2x what slayton got. so im not splitting the atom pointing that out, just saying when factoring in cambell's 4-5m this year, i think id have preferred to take the better player. slayton is more of a downfield wide guy but he hasn't produced tds downfield as much as you'd expect since his rookie year. i think meyers is a pretty good bet to repeat what he's been the last couple years.
Bad enough to lead the team in receptions and yards 3/4 years. Giants don't have winning record or win a playoff game without him.
He was written off and took a pay cut. We needed him down the stretch in the play off run. Yes Hodgins got more action but that may also mean Slayton was the guy defenses were taking away.
I am shocked he is back but also happy.
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Mike Garafolo @MikeGarafolo
The #Giants’ deal with Darius Slayton: Two years, $12 million base value with a max value of $16.5 million, source says
Did not expect that, ouch.
He only had 46 catches and two touchdowns. That's not productive for a guy who started 11 games.
That’s a 60+ catch pace. It actually is productive but not in a good or elite manner.
The contract is paying him 6 or so per. Not 16 per.
Also, probably good idea to wait for the details.
Seems like a harmless deal to me and I don’t love slayton by any means. I know one can do worse.
A guy catching 55-65 passes if he plays 16 games gets 6 per and we’re shocked??? Why???? Elite wrs get 20+ per.
Also, if you think this move precludes the giants from signing some player they LOVE, think again. Try at least.
He’s not a 1 or 2 but I think he’s a decent 3 or 4 WR, hard worker, and a guy who didn’t quit after he was basically told he was on borrowed time on the roster last season.
Slayton earned this and I’m glad to see him remain on the team.
This right here x10
Both drops and catchable are subjective stats. Then layer on the low sample size, and in my line of work, we'd reject that as a viable data point.
I think the more valuable measurement is catch rate over his career.
On 300 career targets, it's pretty safe to say he is what he is. A guy who catches the ball about 55% of the time, which is not a great number.
But conversely, he averages 15 YPC, which makes up for it. And it puts him in the neighborhood of a player like Michael Gallup in the YPC x catch rate math.
For every 10 balls Slayton gets you 82.5 yards.
The bigger issue for Slayton is he's not the kind of guy who can create 10 opportunities a game for himself. And that's why he's getting paid 6M a year and Gallup gets 11.5M.
No he's really not. This is hometown bias personified. He received what the market dictated.
Do you watch other teams?
Nope. And I don’t care what the stats say. Lazard is a jag.
Some post as if this signing stops us from drafting a WR.
All the guys on the depth chart aren't going to make this team.
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The fact that some of you are saying that Parris Campbell is better than Slayton defies any sort of logic.
Do you watch other teams?
Yes. What does that have to do with my statement?
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The fact that some of you are saying that Parris Campbell is better than Slayton defies any sort of logic.
Do you watch other teams?
This is a funny response.
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In comment 16067698 ryanmkeane said:
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The fact that some of you are saying that Parris Campbell is better than Slayton defies any sort of logic.
Do you watch other teams?
Yes. What does that have to do with my statement?
If you watched other teams you know slayton is a WR4. Pariss talent is far above his
Both drops and catchable are subjective stats. Then layer on the low sample size, and in my line of work, we'd reject that as a viable data point.
I think the more valuable measurement is catch rate over his career.
On 300 career targets, it's pretty safe to say he is what he is. A guy who catches the ball about 55% of the time, which is not a great number.
But conversely, he averages 15 YPC, which makes up for it. And it puts him in the neighborhood of a player like Michael Gallup in the YPC x catch rate math.
For every 10 balls Slayton gets you 82.5 yards.
The bigger issue for Slayton is he's not the kind of guy who can create 10 opportunities a game for himself. And that's why he's getting paid 6M a year and Gallup gets 11.5M.
You don't watch football though.
He’s not a 1 or 2 but I think he’s a decent 3 or 4 WR, hard worker, and a guy who didn’t quit after he was basically told he was on borrowed time on the roster last season.
Slayton earned this and I’m glad to see him remain on the team.
+1 Could not agree more.
Both drops and catchable are subjective stats. Then layer on the low sample size, and in my line of work, we'd reject that as a viable data point.
I think the more valuable measurement is catch rate over his career.
On 300 career targets, it's pretty safe to say he is what he is. A guy who catches the ball about 55% of the time, which is not a great number.
But conversely, he averages 15 YPC, which makes up for it. And it puts him in the neighborhood of a player like Michael Gallup in the YPC x catch rate math.
For every 10 balls Slayton gets you 82.5 yards.
The bigger issue for Slayton is he's not the kind of guy who can create 10 opportunities a game for himself. And that's why he's getting paid 6M a year and Gallup gets 11.5M.
i guess when you cant argue the outcome argue the stat? nevermind that every player is subject to the same subjectiveness.
you've beat this horse dead since midseason that slayton doesn't have bad hands despite all evidence to the contrary dating back to college, raw drops, drop rates, catch%, 30th percentile next gen stats catch rating, so im out of ways to say your wrong but im going to try 1 last stat. im not 100% sure it's accurate because it's a little subjective, but im pretty sure on wild card weekend he led the league in tears and teamates coming over to console him after dropping a wide open pass that almost ended their season. i hope he somehow rediscovers his rookie year form but i dont think id have bet 12m+ on it.
Parris Campbell was essentially irrelevant as a football player until last season where he played well.
Slayton has essentially a full seasons worth of production over Campbell and they’ve been in the league the same amount of years.
Could care less about talent. Campbell didn’t live up to his, Slayton has played above his talent level if you ask me.
it is always possible to cherry pick a worse contract. but you are right dallas extending gallup for 5 years on a torn acl was a lot worse than slayton on a 2 year deal.
Parris Campbell was essentially irrelevant as a football player until last season where he played well.
Slayton has essentially a full seasons worth of production over Campbell and they’ve been in the league the same amount of years.
Could care less about talent. Campbell didn’t live up to his, Slayton has played above his talent level if you ask me.
Thats fair- and I was always on the Daniel jones let it ride train. But watching both players its clear who can and is the better player
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I’d rather have Slayton at 6M then Lazard or Gallup at 11
it is always possible to cherry pick a worse contract. but you are right dallas extending gallup for 5 years on a torn acl was a lot worse than slayton on a 2 year deal.
Player contract comps are a thing that actually occurs in the real life NFL. It's not cherry picking when both agents and GMs use it. Slayton has drop issues, he also profiles the speed that Schoen is looking for and has been the Giants big play threat as a WR for the better part of three seasons. Despite what Sunday couch watchers think, NFL GMs place actual dollar values on this. Team admins also value the hard work a player puts in. He received a market value contract.
1. Slayton has been very durable (dependable) in his first 4 seasons.
2. Has the speed that opens up field for our other receivers.
3. Has only lost one fumble in 59 games.
4. Scored 15 td’s so far (Amani had 12 td’s his first 4 seasons).
5. Has developed great chemistry with Dimes.
6. Love the fact that he came to his QB defense when Brisker and the snarling jackals went after Daniel and his contract.
7. His reaction after that drop vs. Vikes in playoffs shows he wants to win and thought he had let his team down (super that Coach D. went right over to him and told him to keep chin up).
8. Did not mope when not playing and was ready when his number was called.
So really happy he’s is coming back.
It really is a terrible WR room and I don’t think we are looking at any other FA unless one shakes loose.
Looking more and more like WR in the 1st. I can’t imagine with all the talk about how bad our WRs were that Paris Campbell is the only change instead of James. I really thought Campbell was to replace Slayton. I know we got Waller but his injury history and Campbells injury history kind of seems like a lot of gambling. Odds are not in favor of either playing a full season, closer to 8 games.
The bigger issue for Slayton is he's not the kind of guy who can create 10 opportunities a game for himself. And that's why he's getting paid 6M a year and Gallup gets 11.5M.
i guess when you cant argue the outcome argue the stat? nevermind that every player is subject to the same subjectiveness.
you've beat this horse dead since midseason that slayton doesn't have bad hands despite all evidence to the contrary dating back to college, raw drops, drop rates, catch%, 30th percentile next gen stats catch rating, so im out of ways to say your wrong but im going to try 1 last stat. im not 100% sure it's accurate because it's a little subjective, but im pretty sure on wild card weekend he led the league in tears and teamates coming over to console him after dropping a wide open pass that almost ended their season. i hope he somehow rediscovers his rookie year form but i dont think id have bet 12m+ on it.
1) A subjective ratio applied to all players is still an incomplete subjective ratio.
2) I've never said he didn't have bad hands. My view has always been his catch rate and YPC make up for his drops. And his catch rate markedly improved this season, in this system. To the tune of +20 percentage points.
3) Hey you're the guy who wanted to bet 14M and a pick on Cortland Sutton, who rated 10 points lower this year in that same Next Gen analysis, with a 57% career catch rate. So next time I need parlay advice, you're not my guy.
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The bigger issue for Slayton is he's not the kind of guy who can create 10 opportunities a game for himself. And that's why he's getting paid 6M a year and Gallup gets 11.5M.
i guess when you cant argue the outcome argue the stat? nevermind that every player is subject to the same subjectiveness.
you've beat this horse dead since midseason that slayton doesn't have bad hands despite all evidence to the contrary dating back to college, raw drops, drop rates, catch%, 30th percentile next gen stats catch rating, so im out of ways to say your wrong but im going to try 1 last stat. im not 100% sure it's accurate because it's a little subjective, but im pretty sure on wild card weekend he led the league in tears and teamates coming over to console him after dropping a wide open pass that almost ended their season. i hope he somehow rediscovers his rookie year form but i dont think id have bet 12m+ on it.
1) A subjective ratio applied to all players is still an incomplete subjective ratio.
2) I've never said he didn't have bad hands. My view has always been his catch rate and YPC make up for his drops. And his catch rate markedly improved this season, in this system. To the tune of +20 percentage points.
3) Hey you're the guy who wanted to bet 14M and a pick on Cortland Sutton, who rated 10 points lower this year in that same Next Gen analysis, with a 57% career catch rate. So next time I need parlay advice, you're not my guy.
You don't watch the NFL besides the Giants. Your opinion is void.
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In comment 16067741 ryanmkeane said:
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I’d rather have Slayton at 6M then Lazard or Gallup at 11
it is always possible to cherry pick a worse contract. but you are right dallas extending gallup for 5 years on a torn acl was a lot worse than slayton on a 2 year deal.
Player contract comps are a thing that actually occurs in the real life NFL. It's not cherry picking when both agents and GMs use it. Slayton has drop issues, he also profiles the speed that Schoen is looking for and has been the Giants big play threat as a WR for the better part of three seasons. Despite what Sunday couch watchers think, NFL GMs place actual dollar values on this. Team admins also value the hard work a player puts in. He received a market value contract.
thanks for explaining comps. in your comp expertise would you say gallups 5x62m was relevant here? or the several dozen contracts in closer proximity to reality?
1. Slayton has been very durable (dependable) in his first 4 seasons.
2. Has the speed that opens up field for our other receivers.
3. Has only lost one fumble in 59 games.
4. Scored 15 td’s so far (Amani had 12 td’s his first 4 seasons).
5. Has developed great chemistry with Dimes.
6. Love the fact that he came to his QB defense when Brisker and the snarling jackals went after Daniel and his contract.
7. His reaction after that drop vs. Vikes in playoffs shows he wants to win and thought he had let his team down (super that Coach D. went right over to him and told him to keep chin up).
8. Did not mope when not playing and was ready when his number was called.
So really happy he’s is coming back.
Great post.
Paris Campbell, Shep, Wandale, Waller... a LOT of games missed between them.
Gives DJ a safety blanket, maybe not the most dependable one, but someone he is familiar with for years now.
Paris Campbell, Shep, Wandale, Waller... a LOT of games missed between them.
Gives DJ a safety blanket, maybe not the most dependable one, but someone he is familiar with for years now.
+1
Frankly,if we didn't resign him I would have been surprised
I really don't see where a 6m AAV is objectionable.
If you don't believe it's within the realm of league normal, I'm not sure there's any way to stop debating it.
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In comment 16067767 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16067741 ryanmkeane said:
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I’d rather have Slayton at 6M then Lazard or Gallup at 11
it is always possible to cherry pick a worse contract. but you are right dallas extending gallup for 5 years on a torn acl was a lot worse than slayton on a 2 year deal.
Player contract comps are a thing that actually occurs in the real life NFL. It's not cherry picking when both agents and GMs use it. Slayton has drop issues, he also profiles the speed that Schoen is looking for and has been the Giants big play threat as a WR for the better part of three seasons. Despite what Sunday couch watchers think, NFL GMs place actual dollar values on this. Team admins also value the hard work a player puts in. He received a market value contract.
thanks for explaining comps. in your comp expertise would you say gallups 5x62m was relevant here? or the several dozen contracts in closer proximity to reality?
I would say I feel the need to summarize comps when people use words like cherry picking. The Cowboys structured Gallup's contract around his availability which brings him much closer to Slayton financially, a player who has been more available and a more focal point of the offense for the team he plays for.
+1. It’s all about the structure.
1) A subjective ratio applied to all players is still an incomplete subjective ratio.
2) I've never said he didn't have bad hands. My view has always been his catch rate and YPC make up for his drops. And his catch rate markedly improved this season, in this system. To the tune of +20 percentage points.
3) Hey you're the guy who wanted to bet 14M and a pick on Cortland Sutton, who rated 10 points lower this year in that same Next Gen analysis, with a 57% career catch rate. So next time I need parlay advice, you're not my guy.
waller's contract is basically the same as the sutton, as was the comp i suggested, so the fo agreed, they just chose a diff player who wasnt publicly known to be available. waller's catch rating was 39th percentile last year and he didnt play enough this year to qualify so 2 years older and with all his time missed i think its not hard to argue they chose a similar or greater risk. waller last made a pro bowl in 20, sutton in 19.
sutton vs waller is arguable either way but adding it all up i think id have chosen same as nyg did and gone w waller despite the injury risk. it's close though, sutton's 28, been healthier, and his floor from the last 2 years appears to be 800 / 13 ypc.
I agree on this. That Lazard deal is bananas, would be pretty annoyed if that were us.
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I’d rather have Slayton at 6M then Lazard or Gallup at 11
I agree on this. That Lazard deal is bananas, would be pretty annoyed if that were us.
Yes, but just because a team makes a bad deal doesn't mean we should compare ourselves to that bad deal. Those are worse deals, but this is still a bad deal.
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if julian love gets a similar 6-7m aav elsewhere would you still have preferred bringing back slayton?
I really don't see where a 6m AAV is objectionable.
If you don't believe it's within the realm of league normal, I'm not sure there's any way to stop debating it.
i never said it was - its exactly the price i expected him to get bc its exactly the price every comp projected. i just wouldnt have wanted to be the one to pay it to him for the exact reason implied in the question i asked that you dodged, there are better uses of that same aav on a player like love.
you cant just sign as many players as you want just bc they are fmv deals. you have to choose who you want to fit under the cap. i hope they can fit both but id have gone love over slayton all day. u?
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I’d rather have Slayton at 6M then Lazard or Gallup at 11
I agree on this. That Lazard deal is bananas, would be pretty annoyed if that were us.
lazard got the deal he did in large part because of rodgers.
In comment 16064777 Eric on Li said:
If Campbell is in our #1, we're in deep doo doo
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Slayton in pretty good company Link - ( New Window )
having as many drops as players who get 2-3x as many targets isn't good.
the last 2 years slayton has been worst in the league in drop%.
league average is like 7% so slayton is dropping 2x league average.
alternatives like jakobi meyers were 1.5% & juju was 3.3%.
spending this much on UFAs wasn't something i expected so if there's something they may end up regretting i think it may be giving slayton + campbell roughly the same aav combined as they could have just given 1 of those guys. they are taking 2 fliers on upside guys instead of just adding 1 more proven above average starter.
wow that’s worse than I thought
But I hate the contract. Don't get this one at all. Seems ridiculously high especially given what they paid Paris Campbell.
Forgetting the compensation for a moment, though, Slayton is actually a pretty good number three in this offense. Paris Campbell has a much higher ceiling than Slayton and if healthy is a great number two. Hodgins, James, Smith and Robinson become rotational guys which is actually now pretty solid depth. Still need a number one WR on this team, though. Waller can possibly be that guy depending on how he is used. Overall, I love the big boost in team speed on offense.
We still need a number one WR though before we effectively match up with the Eagles, Cowboys and the AFC East in terms of overall offense... If not DHop in a trade, then the draft...
Slayton is only 26, he's healthy and still pretty quick. Put another WR like that next to him and maybe he continues to grow.
Obviously they like him for more then his talent on the field, think some of you need to take that in consideration as well.
Slayton is only 26, he's healthy and still pretty quick. Put another WR like that next to him and maybe he continues to grow.
Obviously they like him for more then his talent on the field, think some of you need to take that in consideration as well.
we'll see how things go but again it's not just slayton in a vacuum.
if love leaves bc they cant afford him, and gets paid similar to slayton as projected that was effectively the choice. love was a captain who also brought a lot to the team.
Waller has 8.25M guaranteed money left on his deal.
I won't be surprised if the total guarantees on Slayton + Waller are less than 15M.
So I suspect for the pick and guaranteed dollars getting Sutton would have required for 2023, the Giants got Slayton + Waller.
And Sutton and Slayton are in the same neighborhood in terms of drops and career catch rate, so let's not make Slayton some kind of tragedy and Sutton a good bet.
Hope he has a breakout year.
Mouth open… up to $8M per? WTF
I like the player but not at that cost with his inconsistencies.
Waller has 8.25M guaranteed money left on his deal.
I won't be surprised if the total guarantees on Slayton + Waller are less than 15M.
So I suspect for the pick and guaranteed dollars getting Sutton would have required for 2023, the Giants got Slayton + Waller.
And Sutton and Slayton are in the same neighborhood in terms of drops and career catch rate, so let's not make Slayton some kind of tragedy and Sutton a good bet.
waller's base is 11m + 1.5m in roster/workout bonuses. how much he has guaranteed of that doesn't matter, he's not taking a paycut, so unless you think the nyg traded for waller to cut him and eat 9m in dead money he's getting 12.5m cash this year vs. 14m for sutton. either of them could have restructured salary to signing bonus to create room the same way.
im not sure what numbers you are looking at but per pff over the last 2 seasons sutton has 7 drops in 201 targets. slayton has 12 in 125 targets.
that's 1 drop for every 28 targets for sutton and a 60% catch rate each year.
and 1 drop for every 10 targets for slayton, 65% catch rate '22, 47% '21.
waller has 8 in 132 targets so he's in between at 1 drop for every 16 targets. 66% catch rate '22, 61% '21.
waller and sutton are both only available because their recent track record fell off from their prior pro bowl 'alpha' seasons. pre-acl in 2019 sutton looked like a star and at 27 who knows maybe there's still time. w/ waller it was 2019 + 2020. both are similar buy low gambles at similar costs.
He has good YAC, plenty fast and does contest one-on-one catches well enough. Well better value than Odell and not toxic like Odell
Slay highlights - ( New Window )
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contract.
Hope he has a breakout year.
Mouth open… up to $8M per? WTF
I like the player but not at that cost with his inconsistencies.
Why would your jaw drop at contract incentives?
What would be the problem if he..plays well enough to earn them?
But in reality, drops are not as significant as they seem. Slayton can get open and is particularly good at driving the safety back and then cutting to the middle to give his QB a wide open throw.
And for every Slayton drop, there were two Danny Jones misthrows.
We have to wait to see how much of the contract is guaranteed. But he is a good guy to have on the team, especially since the QB is comfortable throwing to him.
This is what I was going to point out. Maybe the inner details of the contract have been revealed and rational fans have a right to be concerned. If not, this point had been driven home(broadcast anyway, I think many fans still got hung up on aav) but that the aav is essentially meaningless and it has far more to do with the guaranteed money and how the contract is actually structured. The agents release the aav first to show their client made out like a bandit, but later on the details are usually revealed on how the team protected itself. The knee jerk outrage to aav minutes after a tweet is posted is a horse that’s been beaten to death already too many times. A paper thin free agent WR market may have benefited Slayton in this instance, and he may not have been the Giants plan A. to force a pivot away from Slayton just for the sake of doing so when the alternatives were either A)pricier FA WRs who the Giants didn’t feel presented the right value based on the #s they were seeking(who knows what Hadman or Chark were looking for), or B)forcing a Jeudy trade where they gave up more compensation than they felt Jeudy was worth…is that what anyone would really want? That was the Golladay signing. Slayton may seem pricy at first blush, but without knowing the alternative costs it’s hard to grill them because their wasn’t much on the market to begin with.
Good guy...good teammate....and is smart, tough and dependable
So BBI, relax.....
He only had 46 catches and two touchdowns. That's not productive for a guy who started 11 games.
You’re viewing this like a person who just started watching football. Touchdowns numbers are irrelevant. The guy has played in a run heavy offense. That alone lowers the totals. Plus who was opposite him? He had a very good season Your letting his drop Vs the Vikings change your entire view of his season. Without slayton we don’t make the playoffs this year. He was very reliable and had many big catches over the middle absorbing contact and stayed healthy. Him and jones have a legit connection and there’s nobody better on the giants roster running the deep over route. He’s the only pure outside wr we currently have. Campbell can play everywhere but he’s more slot. Hodgins is a possession guy. Slayton is the only speed from the outside and is a very blocker down field. Let’s not overreact to a guy making 6 million per who just had 700 yards. He’s only 26 and increased his catch rate by nearly 10 percent so you would think he can still improve. Also, it slightly lessens the need to draft an X WR early and force that pick. Not that slayton is an X but you subtract him and we are clearly taking WR round 1
Slayton, 26, ranked in the top five in catches, receiving yards, yards per reception and touchdowns over the past four years among all free agents under 30 years old, according to Priority Sports agency.
In three of his four seasons, the ultra-consistent Slayton’s numbers have fallen between 46-50 catches and 724-751 yards.
He has 15 total touchdowns and has led the team in receiving yards three times.
Yeah, he's not a big time receiver, but lets not act like he is dog shit.
Yup my bad the total practical cost of Waller and Slayton for 2023 is probably closer to 18.5M guaranteed vs. the 14M Sutton full guaranteed.
In terms of Sutton vs. Slayton, per PFR:
Career Slayton: 55% catch rate, 6.8% drop rate, 15YPR, 8.3YPT
Career Sutton: 57% catch rate, 5.9% drop rate, 14.6YPR, 8.3YPT
Sutton and Slayton on a per target basis are pretty similar.
This is the point I've made over and over. The difference between Slayton and a player like Sutton isn't so much reliability, it is touches.
Slayton is not versatile enough to command the targets a player like Waller, Gallup, or Sutton. And that's why he makes 6M a year and they make 11-15M.
All told, I think the Giants come out on the plus end with Slayton and Waller at 18.5M vs. Sutton.
That’s the Kenny Goldiday version of a contact for a guy you know is a #4 WR
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Max value of $16.5 m. Right what I said he’d get when everyone called him a minimum player
Awful deal and I don't get it. I really don't get it. He's what? At BEST a #3/#4 WR?
Slayton has almost 3 times the yds and they started the same time. 3 times the TDs, while we're at it.
people just say shit
But what do I know?
I'd like to know what your definition of "production" is?
Congratulations. You won BBI's shit take of the day.
If he is anything more than a 5th or 6th WR we are in trouble.
you have zero basis in reality. None. Delusional.
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by posters who keep saying that Slayton was "productive."
He only had 46 catches and two touchdowns. That's not productive for a guy who started 11 games.
Not sure what there is to be floored about? You can recognize that a guy has some value while understanding that he’s not a great player. Look at the totality of his time here and his production compared to where he was drafted.
4 days.
Less than 2, if you want to be really technical.
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waller's base is 11m + 1.5m in roster/workout bonuses.
Yup my bad the total practical cost of Waller and Slayton for 2023 is probably closer to 18.5M guaranteed vs. the 14M Sutton full guaranteed.
In terms of Sutton vs. Slayton, per PFR:
Career Slayton: 55% catch rate, 6.8% drop rate, 15YPR, 8.3YPT
Career Sutton: 57% catch rate, 5.9% drop rate, 14.6YPR, 8.3YPT
Sutton and Slayton on a per target basis are pretty similar.
This is the point I've made over and over. The difference between Slayton and a player like Sutton isn't so much reliability, it is touches.
Slayton is not versatile enough to command the targets a player like Waller, Gallup, or Sutton. And that's why he makes 6M a year and they make 11-15M.
All told, I think the Giants come out on the plus end with Slayton and Waller at 18.5M vs. Sutton.
PFR has slayton with 13 drops/129 targets the past 2 years, so same 1 in every 10 targets as PFF. they have sutton with 12 drops/207 targets, so roughly 1 in every 17 targets and pretty different than pff. they have waller with 8 drops in 136 so exactly same 1/17 as sutton. slayton also has 3 fumbles in the last 2 years (1 for every 40 targets/20 touches), whereas sutton and waller both have 0.
So to your bolded point and probably no surprise to you i disagree, the mistakes slayton makes are the main reason why he is a 70 target player instead of a 100-120 target player. those 30-50 extra targets are coming with extra mistakes in the literal form of 2 or 3 extra drops and 1 extra fumble. it's also why i think hodgins was clearly the best WR on the team last year once he emerged (which all the advanced metrics agree). in 42 targets he had 1 fumble but 0 drops. by rate slayton would have had 4 drops and fewer catches if he got those targets - which in an offense without a ton of margin for error is a big deal.
adding a more reliable weapon to go with hodgins whether it was hopkins, sutton, or waller was both necessary and separate from whether or not it was also worth retaining slayton. any of those 3 were likely to get restructured exactly as waller was today. the slayton question is more of a comparison against the alternative UFAs per $. with slayton and campbell they bet a combined 10m aav on upside over more dependable options. we all obviously hope that bet works out. i dont mind it but i think it's smarter to be clear eyed at the risk than otherwise.
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And the ADOTs of Juju and Meyers I’m guessing are a lot lower. Slayton needs to improve his drops but comparing his drop rate to Juju who catches most passes well within the sticks isn’t even close to apples to apples.
If Slayton were a 26 year old with sub 4.4 and a high ADOT and low drop rate he’d have gotten PAID. Also if you look at the high drop % players you see a theme on the type of WRs they are.
you are correct about adot/style - slayton selling point is that he's a more explosive downfield receiver (15 ypc).
slayton adot = 12.5
juju adot = 7.3
meyers = 9.9
but as u see meyers' adot wasn't too far behind, and neither was his ypc at 12.0. he had 14 plays 20+ and that was actually more than slayton's 12. and more tds.
that's all why meyers got basically 2x what slayton got. so im not splitting the atom pointing that out, just saying when factoring in cambell's 4-5m this year, i think id have preferred to take the better player. slayton is more of a downfield wide guy but he hasn't produced tds downfield as much as you'd expect since his rookie year. i think meyers is a pretty good bet to repeat what he's been the last couple years.
Darius Slayton was 5th in the NFL in yards per catch last year. That tracks with his career avg as well.
5th in the NFL in YPC. That ain't nothing.
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On a good offensive team, to give him a 2 year deal that you can't cut him year one without very little dead money is a bad deal.
If he is anything more than a 5th or 6th WR we are in trouble.
you can't name ONE team in the NFL who 5 or 6 WR has 750+ yds a year , not just one year but 3 of the last 4
you have zero basis in reality. None. Delusional.
Because there aren't any. In fact there are only a handful of teams with a #2 with that kind of production. Most don't have it. Our problem is not Slayton. It's that we don't have a #1. If Slayton were our #2 or #3, along with Waller as TE, we'd be golden.
Minny's #2: Thielen - 716 yards and 6 TDs
Buffalo's #2: Gabe Davis - 836 yards and 7 TDs
Dallas's #2: Brown: 555 yards and 3 TDs
Chargers #2: Josh Plamer: 769 yards and 3 TDs
KC's #3: Valdes-Scantling: 687 yards and 2 TDs
Miami's #3: Sherfield: 417 yards and 2 TDs
Slayton is at least easily a very good #3 and would be better than many other #2's if he had a solid #1 opposite him. That's just the NFL reality.
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In comment 16067673 AcesUp said:
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And the ADOTs of Juju and Meyers I’m guessing are a lot lower. Slayton needs to improve his drops but comparing his drop rate to Juju who catches most passes well within the sticks isn’t even close to apples to apples.
If Slayton were a 26 year old with sub 4.4 and a high ADOT and low drop rate he’d have gotten PAID. Also if you look at the high drop % players you see a theme on the type of WRs they are.
you are correct about adot/style - slayton selling point is that he's a more explosive downfield receiver (15 ypc).
slayton adot = 12.5
juju adot = 7.3
meyers = 9.9
but as u see meyers' adot wasn't too far behind, and neither was his ypc at 12.0. he had 14 plays 20+ and that was actually more than slayton's 12. and more tds.
that's all why meyers got basically 2x what slayton got. so im not splitting the atom pointing that out, just saying when factoring in cambell's 4-5m this year, i think id have preferred to take the better player. slayton is more of a downfield wide guy but he hasn't produced tds downfield as much as you'd expect since his rookie year. i think meyers is a pretty good bet to repeat what he's been the last couple years.
Darius Slayton was 5th in the NFL in yards per catch last year. That tracks with his career avg as well.
5th in the NFL in YPC. That ain't nothing.
correct, it's the upside they are betting on overcoming his other deficiencies. the deficiencies that had him on the bench/trade block/cutline to start the year after 2 months of preseason. my biggest gripe with slayton is dependability and since that's part of the team's mantra my guess is that was also their gripe when he was on the cutline.
Yup my bad the total practical cost of Waller and Slayton for 2023 is probably closer to 18.5M guaranteed vs. the 14M Sutton full guaranteed.
In terms of Sutton vs. Slayton, per PFR:
Career Slayton: 55% catch rate, 6.8% drop rate, 15YPR, 8.3YPT
Career Sutton: 57% catch rate, 5.9% drop rate, 14.6YPR, 8.3YPT
Sutton and Slayton on a per target basis are pretty similar.
This is the point I've made over and over. The difference between Slayton and a player like Sutton isn't so much reliability, it is touches.
Slayton is not versatile enough to command the targets a player like Waller, Gallup, or Sutton. And that's why he makes 6M a year and they make 11-15M.
All told, I think the Giants come out on the plus end with Slayton and Waller at 18.5M vs. Sutton.
PFR has slayton with 13 drops/129 targets the past 2 years, so same 1 in every 10 targets as PFF. they have sutton with 12 drops/207 targets, so roughly 1 in every 17 targets and pretty different than pff. they have waller with 8 drops in 136 so exactly same 1/17 as sutton. slayton also has 3 fumbles in the last 2 years (1 for every 40 targets/20 touches), whereas sutton and waller both have 0.
So to your bolded point and probably no surprise to you i disagree, the mistakes slayton makes are the main reason why he is a 70 target player instead of a 100-120 target player. those 30-50 extra targets are coming with extra mistakes in the literal form of 2 or 3 extra drops and 1 extra fumble. it's also why i think hodgins was clearly the best WR on the team last year once he emerged (which all the advanced metrics agree). in 42 targets he had 1 fumble but 0 drops. by rate slayton would have had 4 drops and fewer catches if he got those targets - which in an offense without a ton of margin for error is a big deal.
Why are you cutting the line at 2 years and not considering their career numbers?
To glean anything in the neighborhood of statistical significance and any hope of any predictive value two years of data isn't that interesting.
Those 30-50 extra targets would yield 250- 415 extra yards against the 4 year YPT number. In the abstract the staff would take that trade-off.
Slayton was on the field 75% or more the back half of the season. The staff is putting him in the position to have opportunities.
So in your line of thinking Slayton would be making the right reads, and getting open at a reasonable rate -- and Daniel Jones is choosing to not go his way because of the calculus that he'll drop the ball or fumble at higher rate?
That's a hell of a lot of processing power out there for Jones.
The more likely reality is Slayton isn't very versatile and doesn't get open in the ways needed to draw more targets.
if they wanted to get the ball to slayton more, they would have gotten the ball to slayton more. simple as that.
why use the last 2 years? because it's the most relevant sample size by far for the players in question.
Sutton tore his ACL in 2020 so he missed that entire year, and the last 2 years are his post-ACL numbers.
Waller was only available because of the injuries he's battled the last 2 years, which also impacted his performance when he was on the field. at his age and by his own admission those are legitimate concerns impacting his game. if they werent and he was doing what he was doing in 2019/2020 the last 2 years he'd still be a raider.
even when you're wrong you're right though, once your arguments start scraping the barrel to dodges re methodology flaws i should probably just ignore and not take the bait.
So cool, the staff is aces at scheming people open, and there is an order of operations in the reads.
If you think Darius Slayton is often open and in the right place, and the staff and Jones are choosing to not target him 30-50 more times because it'll lead to two more drops at the expense of hundreds of yards, you do you amigo!
So cool, the staff is aces at scheming people open, and there is an order of operations in the reads.
If you think Darius Slayton is often open and in the right place, and the staff and Jones are choosing to not target him 30-50 more times because it'll lead to two more drops at the expense of hundreds of yards, you do you amigo!
next gen stats had slayton:
67th percentile getting open
56th percentile yards after catch
30th percentile catching the ball
i think his speed created more separation than any other player they had last year, his run after the catch improved dramatically vs his first 3 years, and the numbers show that those qualities made him clearly the most explosive player they had (20+ plays, 40+ plays, ypc, next gen).
your contention seems to be the giants ignored all of that and just chose to not throw him the ball more. i think they had their reasons and they are pretty obvious.
now that love has signed for the literal same amount as slayton, i'd re-ask that hypothetical, which of those 2 players would you have chosen to bring back if it were up to you?