Former GM Rick Spielman's take on NY Giants 25th pick

BC, to their credit, used him all over the field and outside the numbers as a deep threat. That’s why I was surprised that he’s so short because he didn’t play that way. He’s physical. The Antonio Brown comparison is asking a bit much, but it’s not crazy.

the extent to which our free agency period has focused on WR makes me think we grab a CB at #25. On the other hand, I think this is a deeper draft for CBs than WRs, so maybe we wait until Round 2 to address that position and see if there's a real #1 WR available.

Not sure where that leaves us at IOL.

Have a more liberal view on how the smaller/separator types can be utilized, maybe to a fault. I think they viewed Wan’Dale as a potential seam stretcher and maybe even outside guy when realistically he’s probably a slot only with gadget utility. So I don’t think Zay will read as slot only for them or even JSN with limited long speed being seen as slot only either.

Just based on interview comments and actions I don’t see their philosophy on WRs aligning with Spielmans.

And if he’s gone I’d look hard at that center Schmitz. Unless a top tier guy fell to us.

It's almost after JSN, people are manufacturing #1 wrs in their mind.


IOL, cb, or DL all look like spots where a starter could be found just as much as WR.


I would hope they draft 1 of those 4, and the one that improves the team the most.

Me thinks the Giants really like him.

In comment 16068001 eli4life said:

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And if he’s gone I’d look hard at that center Schmitz. Unless a top tier guy fell to us.

Agree.

a stud OG at 25

think like you

same as Robinson, from what I have heard.

If Flowers duplicates Wan'Dale Robinson, Torrence duplicates Marcus McKethan. (Same position, very similar measurables, otherwise little discernible connection.) At least McKethan should be well along in his rehab from ACL surgery. Robinson's injury came more than three months later.

I don't know what Schoen and Daboll look for in a guard. They signed Glowinski to fill a gaping hole, so he may simply have been the best UFA they could afford. Ezeudu might be closer to their ideal, based on the premium pick used to acquire him, and he is nothing like Torrence. Ezeudu does his best work on the move, and probably always will. Torrence spent 2022 overpowering SEC DTs. When he fills out completely, Torrence might outweigh both Ezeudu and Glowinski by close to thirty pounds (and they aren't exactly small).

On the other hand, this regime also drafted McKethan, but that was halfway through Day 3.

You mean he’s a guy that can get open and catch passes against good defenses. Boy, I’d hate to have two of those.

If BPA is an OG then great, but boy would it be nice to draft the best center in the draft. It’s a vital position.

CB is another position where we could use more talent. Adore and Holmes are free agents next year.

I think Flowers plays bigger than his size and is more than a slot. I also think pick 25 is good value.

That Flowers would play a similar role to Robinson, there are no guarantees that Robinson will still be able to play the role after the ACL surgery. So I could see Flowers, or Torrence, or a CB or a DL. Frankly, if they see someone they think will be an impact player almost anywhere, I could see it

I would rush to the podium.

The only thing that would make me hesitate is if a CB slid down to our spot.

that is all.

One of the worst GMs in history.

As far a WRs - Schoen has done a nice job upgrading them over last season, but not by much. It is still weak.

I think the GIants have so many remaining holes that a player sitting there at #25 that does the most to upgrade the team will be chosen. If it is Torrence, that is fine by me.

As far a Flowers...Schoen said WRs need separation to be useful to the QB, if Flowers can continually beat his man and gain large separation, his height does not matter. Tyreek Hill is maybe 5'9".

Flowers is a great talent. He’s also 5’10 and 170 pounds. We need to draft a different profile of WR. IMO.

In comment 16068076 section125 said:

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One of the worst GMs in history. As far a WRs - Schoen has done a nice job upgrading them over last season, but not by much. It is still weak. I think the GIants have so many remaining holes that a player sitting there at #25 that does the most to upgrade the team will be chosen. If it is Torrence, that is fine by me. As far a Flowers...Schoen said WRs need separation to be useful to the QB, if Flowers can continually beat his man and gain large separation, his height does not matter. Tyreek Hill is maybe 5'9".

Hill is a lazy comparison. Hill is the fastest human on the planet. Flowers is not. I would not take flowers in the first because of his size. NFL is different than college.

In comment 16068081 GiantsFan84 said:

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In comment 16068076 section125 said: Quote: One of the worst GMs in history. As far a WRs - Schoen has done a nice job upgrading them over last season, but not by much. It is still weak. I think the GIants have so many remaining holes that a player sitting there at #25 that does the most to upgrade the team will be chosen. If it is Torrence, that is fine by me. As far a Flowers...Schoen said WRs need separation to be useful to the QB, if Flowers can continually beat his man and gain large separation, his height does not matter. Tyreek Hill is maybe 5'9". Hill is a lazy comparison. Hill is the fastest human on the planet. Flowers is not. I would not take flowers in the first because of his size. NFL is different than college.

He is not that much faster and he is a perfect comparison - height wise which is the point. You do understand that 0.2 of a second amounts to about 2 ft in a 40 yard dash and Hill is only about 0.1 sec faster...

that PHI and DAL are a notch above NYG. No pick is too high for a good lineman.

on the OL, so that it can finally be "fixed".

I couldn't find the post made yesterday by Colin (Great Blue North Draft Report) but he suggests that spending a 1st RD pick on a G or an OC is "80's thinking" and that he believes the Giants will focus on a premium position.

I fully expect that the Giants will go either WR or CB in RD-1, depending upon whether any of the top 3 WRs or top 6 CBs are still on the board at 25.

Torrence is 1st rd talent, possible pro bowl OG, day 1 starter.

Any lineman who fits that description has to be seriously considered.

In comment 16068093 Jim in Tampa said:

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on the OL, so that it can finally be "fixed". I couldn't find the post made yesterday by Colin (Great Blue North Draft Report) but he suggests that spending a 1st RD pick on a G or an OC is "80's thinking" and that he believes the Giants will focus on a premium position. I fully expect that the Giants will go either WR or CB in RD-1, depending upon whether any of the top 3 WRs or top 6 CBs are still on the board at 25.

I would not rule out ER/DE. I believe Schoen is positioning himself to be able to take the best player available when he gets to his pick in the top 2 rounds.

But I still think they'll go CB, even if they have to trade up a bit to get their guy if he's within striking distance.

In comment 16068091 bluefin said:

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that PHI and DAL are a notch above NYG. No pick is too high for a good lineman.

Dallas hasn’t had a good OL the past 3 seasons. It’s the weakest link on their team

no good C, no good OL. Just that simple

In comment 16068104 Victor in CT said:

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no good C, no good OL. Just that simple

Torrence is a OG not a C

In comment 16068105 BigBlueShock said:

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In comment 16068104 Victor in CT said: Quote: no good C, no good OL. Just that simple Torrence is a OG not a C

I've seen him called a C on other sites.

In comment 16068109 Victor in CT said:

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In comment 16068105 BigBlueShock said: Quote: In comment 16068104 Victor in CT said: Quote: no good C, no good OL. Just that simple Torrence is a OG not a C I've seen him called a C on other sites.

I’ve never read anything that mentions he’s ever played C in his career

I don't see it happening at #25. In recent years, some of the better OC's have been drafted after the 1st round, like Creed Humphrey (63), Luke Fortner (65), and Tyler Biadasz (146). If they don't re-sign Feliciano, which I would be okay with for continuity 'sake, if for nothing else, they might be content with Bredeson starting and a rookie backup. We'll see.

I mean you are picking 25 you kind of have to be.

I'm hoping they get an edge player there but we'll see who drops. Could Nolan Smith or Keion White be there at 25?

Another option (maybe) depending how the coaches really feel about Neil, (they can tell if he has the goods or not), let’s say they feel they have to kick him inside. (Remember I’m not saying too do this only if coaches think it’s better), give me the RT from Tennessee at #25 and I would be happy.

In comment 16068124 BigBlueShock said:

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In comment 16068109 Victor in CT said: Quote: In comment 16068105 BigBlueShock said: Quote: In comment 16068104 Victor in CT said: Quote: no good C, no good OL. Just that simple Torrence is a OG not a C I've seen him called a C on other sites. I’ve never read anything that mentions he’s ever played C in his career

He may be thinking of Steve Avila, the G from TCU who I've also seen listed at an OC.

Top 500 - ( New Window )

In comment 16068047 Big Blue Blogger said:

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If Flowers duplicates Wan'Dale Robinson, Torrence duplicates Marcus McKethan. (Same position, very similar measurables, otherwise little discernible connection.)

So to you, there is no difference between Marcus McKethan, who was rated prior to last years draft as no more than a priority free agent, and O'Cyrus Torrence, who is being discussed as a first round draft selection in this years draft? This is your analysis?

I cant even .......whatever....

still don't get it in how the draft and board is run by teams like our new regime (this is not the Gettleman or Reese eras).

Especially picking in the 20s - there's going to be a draft board cluster of players that get discussed.

In comment 16068150 Sammo85 said:

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still don't get it in how the draft and board is run by teams like our new regime (this is not the Gettleman or Reese eras). Especially picking in the 20s - there's going to be a draft board cluster of players that get discussed.

Exactly.. BPA is the deciding factor unless the player/board ranking is super close than the lean it toward need

The weight scares me.

The Heavy Guards

These massive men have not had a good go of it in the NFL as only a few of them were ever regular starters in the league and only one ever made the Pro Bowl.
Year Name College Weight (lbs) NFL career?
2018 Shamire Devine Georgia Tech 380 Undrafted
2011 Carl Johnson Florida 361 Undrafted
2009 Herman Johnson Louisiana State 356 5th round, never played in NFL
2006 Max Jean-Gilles Georgia 355 4th rnd, started 26 games in 4 yrs
2002 Steve Edwards Central Florida 355 undrafted, 24 GS over 5 yrs
2015 Tayo Fabuluje Texas Christian 353 6th rnd, 0 GS in 1 yr
2006 Charles Spencer Pittsburgh 352 3rd rnd, 2 GS in 1 yr
2017 Josh Boutte Louisiana State 351 Undrafted
2020 Mike Onwenu Michigan 350 6th rnd, 24 GS in 2yrs, 1 year as full-time starter
2002 Toniu Fonoti Nebraska 349 2nd rnd, 33 GS in 4 yrs
2015 Mitchell Bell Louisiana Tech 348 Undrafted
2003 Derrick Dockery Texas 347 3rd round, 115 GS in 10 yrs
2015 Leon Brown Alabama 346 Undrafted
2012 Brandon Brooks Miami (OH) 346 3rd rnd, 108 GS in 9 yrs, 3x PB
2001 Floyd Womack Mississippi State 345 4th rnd, 71 GS in 10 yrs
2000 Matt Johnson Brigham Young 345 Undrafted
2021 Deonte Brown Alabama 344 6th rnd, 0 GS so far
2005 Chris Kemoeatu Utah 344 undrafted, 53 GS in 6 yrs
2021 Ben Cleveland Georgia 343 3rd rnd, 4 GS so far
2005 Claude Terrell New Mexico 343 4th rnd, 13 GS in 2 yrs
2018 Tyrone Crowder Clemson 342 Undrafted
2017 Gavin Andrews Oregon State 340 Undrafted
2015 Kalon Davis Clemson 340 Undrafted

Take the consensus value best player available. No believing that we are the smartest guys in the world. No reaching for need as our needs have nothing to do with the talent available on the board.

Schoen needs to get this right this year, especially given the cap constraints now in effect. High talent starting players on rookie contracts will be vital to any success we have over the next several years

.

Towards the offensive line myself. But at this point, I think Joe has covered most of our bases so that we can go pure BPA at #25. Corner would also be up there. If our best ranked available player at #25 happens to be a WR, then I'm fine with that. But I'd lean towards getting an offensive lineman (and not necessarily an interior lineman either, I'm fine moving Neal inside, if that works best for us), all things being equal.

Enough with the china doll midgets already!!

Both are still bottom 5 units on paper.

Just because he played all over the fiel in college doesn’t mean he will in the NFL, and his drop rate is startling. I’m not sure Torrence makes it to 25, but he’d be a great pick.

The thing with draft picks esp 1st rounders you have them for a good amount of time and if you think about it you should want them to be a high paying position so you don't have to pay for it in the open market. This is as long as they are ready to play game 1. Like the OT we have and are at a pretty good price. CB would make sense Defensive line and WR. WR if its a number 1 type of WR.

have some guys in roster at OL they seem to like, so don't assume a pick, unless there's a real talent they are in love with.

Truth is many good teams are finding OL fits in FA for the interior and also in the mid rounds. A G to be taken so high, has to be almost borderline elite, out of the gate which is a tall ask.

Depends on how the Giants have their board. If they have Torrence or Schmitz rated really highly, they probably will be in conversation, but given where we are picking, I suspect there will be a couple WRs, a CB, maybe even a TE, and probably a DL/Edge in conversation at 25.

2nd, 3rd, 4th rounds to me are exciting too, 1st pick opens up some fluidity with how board is handled in those rounds. Still think we take a RB somewhere in the 3rd-5th.

but would prefer QJ, Addison, or JSN.

I'd wager the pick will be WR, CB, or Edge.

In comment 16068091 bluefin said:

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that PHI and DAL are a notch above NYG. No pick is too high for a good lineman.

This is partly true.....I would add they both have true #1 receiver talent, as well, you could add in McClaurin from Wash in the category, as well.

In comment 16068171 rasbutant said:

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The weight scares me. The Heavy Guards These massive men have not had a good go of it in the NFL as only a few of them were ever regular starters in the league and only one ever made the Pro Bowl. Year Name College Weight (lbs) NFL career? 2018 Shamire Devine Georgia Tech 380 Undrafted 2011 Carl Johnson Florida 361 Undrafted 2009 Herman Johnson Louisiana State 356 5th round, never played in NFL 2006 Max Jean-Gilles Georgia 355 4th rnd, started 26 games in 4 yrs 2002 Steve Edwards Central Florida 355 undrafted, 24 GS over 5 yrs 2015 Tayo Fabuluje Texas Christian 353 6th rnd, 0 GS in 1 yr 2006 Charles Spencer Pittsburgh 352 3rd rnd, 2 GS in 1 yr 2017 Josh Boutte Louisiana State 351 Undrafted 2020 Mike Onwenu Michigan 350 6th rnd, 24 GS in 2yrs, 1 year as full-time starter 2002 Toniu Fonoti Nebraska 349 2nd rnd, 33 GS in 4 yrs 2015 Mitchell Bell Louisiana Tech 348 Undrafted 2003 Derrick Dockery Texas 347 3rd round, 115 GS in 10 yrs 2015 Leon Brown Alabama 346 Undrafted 2012 Brandon Brooks Miami (OH) 346 3rd rnd, 108 GS in 9 yrs, 3x PB 2001 Floyd Womack Mississippi State 345 4th rnd, 71 GS in 10 yrs 2000 Matt Johnson Brigham Young 345 Undrafted 2021 Deonte Brown Alabama 344 6th rnd, 0 GS so far 2005 Chris Kemoeatu Utah 344 undrafted, 53 GS in 6 yrs 2021 Ben Cleveland Georgia 343 3rd rnd, 4 GS so far 2005 Claude Terrell New Mexico 343 4th rnd, 13 GS in 2 yrs 2018 Tyrone Crowder Clemson 342 Undrafted 2017 Gavin Andrews Oregon State 340 Undrafted 2015 Kalon Davis Clemson 340 Undrafted

Doesn't scare me. The dude is an absolute beast. A lot of video on him that talks about how good he is with his hands and foot work. He is like a fire hydrant when he locks on.

In comment 16068080 Tim in Eternal Blue said:

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Flowers is a great talent. He’s also 5’10 and 170 pounds. We need to draft a different profile of WR. IMO.

Agree. You have to wonder if a guy that size can take the NFL pounding? Look at Wan'Dale, he left the field on his very first NFL hit, was injured much of the year, and did not make it through an entire game without leaving the field dinged up. Seems like guys that size have to be very elusive.