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Appraising GM Joe Shoen Modus Operandi

G-crew18 : 3/17/2023 9:15 am
We have a wizard guiding our beloved New York Football Giants Franchise. Signing Daniel Jones long term, giving appropriate value yet employing fail safes protecting against a worst-case scenario, established a tactic universally applied within his contract structure.

It allows for a modest base salary with scaled incentives which if met will earn the player a nice bonus, millions are for the taking if the goals are met. Understanding how to motivate athletes who are smart, tough, and dependable by challenging them and firing up their competitive inner drive. The result of such goals being met is a stellar performance on the field fulfilling the primary objective, "To Win Football Games".

Beginning the off-season there were many areas on the roster in need of improvement. Critical need: ILB, DL depth, WR, TE, IOL, CB, S, pretty much the whole team was in need of an upgrade. Now after the first few days of FA steller ILB Bobby Okereke, DL Rakeem Nunez-Roches, top 3 TE Darren Waller, WR Parris Campbell, WR Jeff Smith, WR Darius Slayton, WR Sterling Shepard, DL Jihad Ward, RB Matt Breida, LB Jarrad Davis.

The complexion has metamorphosized giving OC Mike Kafka and HC Brain Daboll an arsenal of playmakers who can go the distance on any given play. Where last season the receiving corps was among the slowest in the league there is now elite speed among the WR & TE corps. Given the coaching, play design, offensive concepts, and offensive ingenuity the offense for the coming season will be dynamic and explosive.

Looking forward to the draft IOL, CB & S will be addressed, C I would expect in the first 2 rounds along with CB. After that, it will be the best player available to fill out the roster. That is not to say that our GM is done with FA, just that the composition of the roster is becoming formidable, and competing for divisional supremacy may be becoming in the realm of possibility.

What our GM has accomplished is masterful and he is just getting started. Seems like the work of a wizard to me.

Go Big Blue!!!

I think what we are seeing  
eli4life : 3/17/2023 9:18 am : link
Is the result of him and dab’s truly being in “lock-step “ with each other. No more of the here’s your player make it work somehow
I like that the  
46and2Blue : 3/17/2023 9:21 am : link
moves they have made leaves the draft a little murky. In the past teams knew what we were going to do and could outmaneuver us. The picks they have acquired leaves a lot of flexibility for us in the draft.
Appraising GM Joe Shoen  
Marty in Albany : 3/17/2023 9:38 am : link
Better than last GM.
OMG  
Kmed6000 : 3/17/2023 9:44 am : link
remember the poster Modus Operandi? What ever happened to that guy?
While it all looks good on paper  
Sec 103 : 3/17/2023 10:00 am : link
First 5 game loss streak, BBI will call for his head.... But I doubt that happens, seems to me that he and his staff are indeed in lock step. Will be interesting what they do in the draft, although I don't think FA is over by any means.
RE: Appraising GM Joe Shoen  
Spider43 : 3/17/2023 10:06 am : link
In comment 16068183 Marty in Albany said:
Quote:
Better than last GM.


LOL, yes!

I think he's more 'by the book' though. The moves are so far making sense, more BBI'ers would agree (yes, there are still those who don't agree!). His predecessor was as wacky (like, WTF?!) as you can get, out of left field.
It's early and there's optimism  
Sammo85 : 3/17/2023 10:11 am : link
But it's the NFL and things change on a dime. Jones situation is what it is and the contract is what it is. Rest of details though still need more of a longer term vision/coalescing before we can truly see the fruits of labor. If Jones can't elevate further and rest of roster doesn't really develop out sufficiently, the complexion will change, much like the Reese and Gettleman tenures.

I remember many posters here absolutely loving Gettleman and praising him like he was Julius Caesar returning to Rome.
I like the moves ...  
Giantfan in skinland : 3/17/2023 10:18 am : link
But there is a definite potential for it to flop.

Campbell and Waller both have had injury problems. Shepard and Robinson are both recovering from season ending injuries. There's a best case scenario where this offense looks very different. But I'd say there's an equally plausible scenario where we don't get a whole heck of a lot from any of those four guys next season and the skill players are basically the same ones we ended last season with (this is why I continue to believe a WR in the first or second is likely). They're low risk moves and I think the the right way to approach this off-season given what was available in the FA market. But sometimes, not panicking means you simply took your lumps, made some incremental improvements, and didn't hamstring yourself moving forward. In the end, that may be all this off-season ends up being offensively. I'm fine with that...but I think people need to keep that in mind if these moves do end up busting.



RE: I think what we are seeing  
Gruber : 3/17/2023 10:21 am : link
In comment 16068165 eli4life said:
Quote:
Is the result of him and dab’s truly being in “lock-step “ with each other. No more of the here’s your player make it work somehow


It's more than that.
He's staying away from bad contracts. He comes to the table very well prepared, knows what he's looking for and doesn't panic buy. He's got an eye on future cap space and flexibility.
I can't believe there some on here who believe Joe Schoen is a JAG GM. As for the draft, no one has a 100% record, particularly Howie Roseman, so criticising him because you think a player taken in his first draft hasn't met your standards is just dumb.
One of the things I've learned over the last 4+ years of  
Dinger : 3/17/2023 10:25 am : link
being a Giants fan is not to rush to judgement or praise on anyone in the org. I LOVE how last year went, and on the face of it I like the offseason so far. Doesn't seem to be an overpay for anyone or burdensome deal in the mix...yet. I like that they want to build thru the draft so I'm HOPING the OL needs and Depth as well as the DL needs/depth are addressed there. IMO I feel like they still need a WR1 but I like the depth. Also really would like to better the talent at CB, maybe re-signing Moreau for solid depth? There are two moves Schoen made that I didin't like; Re-signing Gillian and Shepard. Love Sterling and everything he's done for the team. Just felt like time to move on. Make him a coach or something. Gillian was never more than meh. Feel like we could have looked to upgrade there.
Too early to determine  
.McL. : 3/17/2023 10:33 am : link
Other than he is way better than Gettleman.
RE: Too early to determine  
.McL. : 3/17/2023 10:35 am : link
In comment 16068264 .McL. said:
Quote:
Other than he is way better than Gettleman.

However, that is an extraordinarily low hurdle. Not really a hurdle at all, more like not tripping over the indentation in the ground.
He will be criticized in the future...  
DefenseWins : 3/17/2023 10:38 am : link
for moves that will not work out. Nobody is perfect. All we can hope for and have seen so far is improvement.
Some of these moves may not pan out  
Dave on the UWS : 3/17/2023 10:42 am : link
(because of injury, etc). But if you look at the TYPES of moves they are making, they make sense and they all have a common theme. Daboll and Schoen have a vision of building a sustainable, FAST, PHYSICAL team.
Schoen saw how Dallas and Philly ran them out of the building several times last year. He knows winning the division is job one. To do that, he needs to build a team that can compete physically and be as fast or faster.
He's on his way to doing that, one piece at a time.
Nothing  
pjcas18 : 3/17/2023 10:42 am : link
like waiting for results before planting the mission accomplished flag.

Until I see on-field results the grade is INC
RE: Nothing  
Wildcardgiants : 3/17/2023 10:45 am : link
In comment 16068277 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
like waiting for results before planting the mission accomplished flag.

Until I see on-field results the grade is INC


These discussions are the whole purpose of this forum. Shut down answers like your serve no purpose. There's nothing to discuss if people don't speculate...
Remember  
mittenedman : 3/17/2023 10:46 am : link
all the chest thumping proclamations that this team would look radically different this year, and that last year was a write off year to dump salary?

Just another narrative that was utter BS.

Schoen has prioritized keeping this Playoff team together and continuing to build it.
RE: RE: Nothing  
pjcas18 : 3/17/2023 10:48 am : link
In comment 16068282 Wildcardgiants said:
Quote:
In comment 16068277 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


like waiting for results before planting the mission accomplished flag.

Until I see on-field results the grade is INC



These discussions are the whole purpose of this forum. Shut down answers like your serve no purpose. There's nothing to discuss if people don't speculate...



This isn't speculation, it's hero worship from a desperate fan base. Go back and read the threads when Joe Judge was hired - even read back through his first season.

And if the forum is for the exchange of ideas and opinions, why can't I share mine, just because I don't share the love fest yet and I'm more guarded in my optimism.

I didn't realize the point of forum or idea exchange was creating an echo chamber.
RE: Remember  
joeinpa : 3/17/2023 11:12 am : link
In comment 16068283 mittenedman said:
Quote:
all the chest thumping proclamations that this team would look radically different this year, and that last year was a write off year to dump salary?

Just another narrative that was utter BS.

Schoen has prioritized keeping this Playoff team together and continuing to build it.


There were a number of guys lost through injury that are coming back. I like the concept you point out.
They made it to the playoff with a make-shift crew last season....  
Fishmanjim57 : 3/17/2023 11:19 am : link
The fact that JS had some money in the coffer to join the FA possibilities in just one season is amazing. The fact that Joe Schoen hired Brandon Brown as his assistant G.M. was also brilliant. Between JS & BB, with some input from Brian Daboll, Wink & Mike, our team is becoming relevant again.
They aren't going after the big sexy F.A.'s either, they're targeting players who can be leaders on this team.
I love what they're doing!
SO I guess  
Dave on the UWS : 3/17/2023 11:30 am : link
making the playoffs last year doesn't qualify as "on field results". Only winning the SB EVERY year counts?? That's how some of you sound. JFC
RE: RE: RE: Nothing  
Wildcardgiants : 3/17/2023 11:51 am : link
In comment 16068286 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 16068282 Wildcardgiants said:


Quote:


In comment 16068277 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


like waiting for results before planting the mission accomplished flag.

Until I see on-field results the grade is INC



These discussions are the whole purpose of this forum. Shut down answers like your serve no purpose. There's nothing to discuss if people don't speculate...




This isn't speculation, it's hero worship from a desperate fan base. Go back and read the threads when Joe Judge was hired - even read back through his first season.

And if the forum is for the exchange of ideas and opinions, why can't I share mine, just because I don't share the love fest yet and I'm more guarded in my optimism.

I didn't realize the point of forum or idea exchange was creating an echo chamber.


Another shutdown statement. What's your point? Don't enter in if you don't like it.
What I see  
56n11bestever : 3/17/2023 12:16 pm : link
Is a GM doing what he thinks is best. In lock step with a coach. While doing risk mitigation on the players we take. If this does not work we won’t be killed with dead cap. We are taking poison pills now like golliday so we have flexibility in the future.

At the town hall with pat shurmer. Someone asked about the players he wanted and said he was a body collector. That is not a vision and you have no clue if you have the right people in the building.

With this administration

Overall it feels like we are building a roster with the draft and pieces we need which might be risky but we can get out off. The pay for performance is a great model if they don’t perform that money moves into next year as cap money and probably offsets the dead cap if the player is cut.

Finally it feels competent and competitive. Will we get the results who knows but we can keep what we need and pivot where we need to.

Go giants.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Nothing  
pjcas18 : 3/17/2023 12:25 pm : link
In comment 16068413 Wildcardgiants said:
Quote:
In comment 16068286 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


In comment 16068282 Wildcardgiants said:


Quote:


In comment 16068277 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


like waiting for results before planting the mission accomplished flag.

Until I see on-field results the grade is INC



These discussions are the whole purpose of this forum. Shut down answers like your serve no purpose. There's nothing to discuss if people don't speculate...




This isn't speculation, it's hero worship from a desperate fan base. Go back and read the threads when Joe Judge was hired - even read back through his first season.

And if the forum is for the exchange of ideas and opinions, why can't I share mine, just because I don't share the love fest yet and I'm more guarded in my optimism.

I didn't realize the point of forum or idea exchange was creating an echo chamber.



Another shutdown statement. What's your point? Don't enter in if you don't like it.


My apologies, I didn't realize a restrained approach was a shut down statement and this thread was only for pom pm waving.

Schoen is the best, he's so smart, we're all the best. Yay us!

RE: While it all looks good on paper  
Justlurking : 3/17/2023 12:26 pm : link
In comment 16068210 Sec 103 said:
Quote:
First 5 game loss streak, BBI will call for his head.... But I doubt that happens, seems to me that he and his staff are indeed in lock step. Will be interesting what they do in the draft, although I don't think FA is over by any means.


hopefully we are done with 5 game loss streaks.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Nothing  
DieHard : 3/17/2023 1:15 pm : link
In comment 16068469 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 16068413 Wildcardgiants said:


Quote:


In comment 16068286 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


In comment 16068282 Wildcardgiants said:


Quote:


In comment 16068277 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


like waiting for results before planting the mission accomplished flag.

Until I see on-field results the grade is INC



These discussions are the whole purpose of this forum. Shut down answers like your serve no purpose. There's nothing to discuss if people don't speculate...




This isn't speculation, it's hero worship from a desperate fan base. Go back and read the threads when Joe Judge was hired - even read back through his first season.

And if the forum is for the exchange of ideas and opinions, why can't I share mine, just because I don't share the love fest yet and I'm more guarded in my optimism.

I didn't realize the point of forum or idea exchange was creating an echo chamber.



Another shutdown statement. What's your point? Don't enter in if you don't like it.



My apologies, I didn't realize a restrained approach was a shut down statement and this thread was only for pom pm waving.

Schoen is the best, he's so smart, we're all the best. Yay us!


Now you've got it!

Seriously, though, if your stance is that we can't have a reasonable opinion until we see "on-field results," does that mean the 2022 season didn't count? What constitutes enough "on-field results" to deign this topic worthy of debate? If the Giants sucked in 2022, would you also have said that Schoen's grade is INC? I'm being sincere in these questions.

A poster didn't take to your approach, and maybe the way it was phrased was off-putting. It happens. If you wanted to promote an exchange of ideas, you could have followed up with further explanation, a more detailed argument behind your thinking. Instead you resorted to labeling, sarcasm about "pom pom waving" (even though the majority of posts on this thread are pretty measured) and defensiveness.
I viewed the 2022  
pjcas18 : 3/17/2023 2:39 pm : link
season as successful, but realistically very few of Schoen's acquisitions were significant contributors to the outcome (in the gran scheme) so that is why I give him an INC.

I viewed the influence of 2022 mostly on coaching.

I'm not negative on Schoen, just I am restrained with my optimism because I haven't seen enough.

Doesn't mean others can't jump in with both feet like they did with Judge, just means I am not.

If that means I should keep my comments to myself because this thread is only for comments in total agreement...then people who think that can go F themselves and should only share threads like this in closed forums. Not sorry.
RE: I viewed the 2022  
DieHard : 3/17/2023 3:47 pm : link
In comment 16068708 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
season as successful, but realistically very few of Schoen's acquisitions were significant contributors to the outcome (in the gran scheme) so that is why I give him an INC.

I viewed the influence of 2022 mostly on coaching.

I'm not negative on Schoen, just I am restrained with my optimism because I haven't seen enough.

Doesn't mean others can't jump in with both feet like they did with Judge, just means I am not.


Okay, now we're talking. I saw in another thread that you put Schoen down as 10% of the reason for the Giants' success in 2022, compared to Daboll's 90%. I think he deserves a bit more credit than that. He should get some credit for hiring Daboll in the first place, which was a huge move. And while he didn't make splashy moves, he picked up players on the fly and at a discount like Hodgins, Moreau, Pinnock, and others who made way more of a positive impact than expected. Sure Daboll and staff had to coach them up, but Schoen and his personnel staff had to discover the talent, too.

I view Schoen and Daboll as just about a single entity, anyway. Clearly they work through everything together, and I don't see that as a negative against Schoen. Sure, the evaluation of Schoen continues, and it'll be interesting to see how he does with more flexibility. But I think considering what he had to work with, he couldn't have done much more, or much better, in 2022. That gives me reason for optimism.
When you listen carefully to what Joe Schoen has said  
CornerStone246+17 : 3/17/2023 5:47 pm : link
He has stressed positional value in the draft repeatedly. Meaning the high impact positions , the ones that cost the big $$$, should if at all possible be the ones you go after early in the draft. When this is done successfully will have a more cost controlled high level players at QB, CB, OT, WR , EDGE and therefore a in theory , a more manageable cap situation.

Further to the keep costs down in FA the less premium lower dollar positions should be signed there when possible. So what were the biggest splashes? ILB and TE. Not 16-20+ million dollar contracts for the most premium positions but 10M dollar contracts and well structured ones at that for Waller and Okereke.

All the WRs were 'bargain' signings thus far. We haven't signed a CB.

So back to the draft it certainly feels like with the depth at WR and CB with CB in particular being absolutely loaded, we are going to go for these two positions in rounds 1 and 2 or at minumum round 1 and round 3.
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