Field Yates
@FieldYates
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2m
Following the trade to New York, the Giants have converted $9.835M of TE Darren Waller’s 2023 base salary into a signing bonus, creating $7.868M in cap space, per source.
all this does is lower the cap hit in year 1 and then raise it like 2.5M in each of the remaining 4 years. Also makes a dead cap hit a little higher should we need to cut him.
If Waller produces this year, his contract will need to be reworked.
this was a pretty obvious move - it doesnt create that much $ risk
even if they decide to move on next year they still can do so and save net$ against the cap.
this is where the benefit of trades vs. FA signings is helpful w/r/t cap. the same manipulation could have (or could still) be done with someone like hopkins or sutton if they really wanted to, though i dont expect that to happen.
all this does is lower the cap hit in year 1 and then raise it like 2.5M in each of the remaining 4 years. Also makes a dead cap hit a little higher should we need to cut him.
If Waller produces this year, his contract will need to be reworked.
no more than any other contract with a high base salary - which for next year is currently just him and jones.
his base salaries each of the next 3 years after this one were above 10m, which means this same manipulation to save space will be on the table whenever they want to create room.
he and jones are the only 2 base salaries over 5m on the books for next year.
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
·
9m
Have been telling you this has been coming for days. This doesn’t really create space for more signings; it creates the space needed for the signings they’ve already made
Leo has to be next: that’s where the big $$ are in cap savings in 2023
Ryan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
·
8m
#Giants already essentially spent some of this space, I believe. Also this means it won’t be a clean break after 2023 if they cut him, but the trade was made with the expectation to have Waller for multiple seasons. The key is his health
Field Yates
@FieldYates
Replying to
@DDuggan21
My bad. No void Year added. I just counted the years wrong on the initial tweet. It’s $7,376,250 in savings.
not odd at all. The big risk on DW is his ability to stay healthy. Prior to this restructure, there was no penalty to dump him after this year if he proves unable to make it onto the field. Now there is. His health makes for the conversation.
not odd at all. The big risk on DW is his ability to stay healthy. Prior to this restructure, there was no penalty to dump him after this year if he proves unable to make it onto the field. Now there is. His health makes for the conversation.
Got it. Thx
RE: I'm curious why they haven't done something with Leo yet
same reason there's no deal with barkley yet, that's a negotiation not a unilateral decision unless they just cut him, which there's no real rush to do.
based on what he said in his comments after the season i wouldnt be surprised if leo's new deal is sort of being discussed in tandem to the lawrence extension.
This is why taking the Golladay cap hit this year...
Quote:
same reason there's no deal with barkley yet, that's a negotiation not a unilateral decision unless they just cut him, which there's no real rush to do.
based on what he said in his comments after the season i wouldnt be surprised if leo's new deal is sort of being discussed in tandem to the lawrence extension.
I kind of think, maybe another factor in waiting on Leo, is that with all the hoopla surrounding NYG and a #1 WR, or a CB, or an IOL, Schoen and Brown may be zeroing in on DL or Edge, maybe the guy from IA if he's still on the board when they pick, or another sleeper at one of those positions. Maybe the wait on Leo is to let sleeping dogs lie.
Minor technical point, but perhaps one worth making:
This type of move, by itself, does not utilize cap space from subsequent years. That's because, if you convert salary to bonus and don't use that space this year, it will roll forward to the next league year and offset the hit you pushed into the future.
What takes space from subsequent years is actually using the space on other deals, like Campbell and Slayton. A bit in the weeds, I guess, and maybe a distinction without a difference.
RE: I'm curious why they haven't done something with Leo yet
there's no rush to get williams extended, and the nyg strongest hand will be later this offseason when there's less cap $ avaialable in market. Williams will have fewer options then because if he gets cut he isn't going to recoup as much $.
they have the cash leverage over williams bc right now he has $0 guaranteed this year.
in the interim i think they have been focused on jones/barkley, then trades/UFA, which they are probably still in the thick of with Love and some other DBs.
we know they've started conversations with lawrence re extension and that will likely be a number above 100m. before they settle on the structure of that deal they probably wanted to see how any new multi-year deals fit into the puzzle - like Waller's. once they are done on multi-year FA deals i expect they will pivot more seriously to lawrence, and as they do that i think they will engage more seriously with williams to then fit his future $ around Lawrence's.
adoree jackson is probably a less complicated extension to work out now if he's a guy they want to extend. if not they should be shopping him on the trade market a year early and saving another 6m off the cap to go out and sign a couple replacements like averett/ya sin or whoever. but jackson is better than those guys so i think it probably makes more sense to extend him off a solid but unspectacular season.
RE: RE: I'm curious why they haven't done something with Leo yet
His $18MM salary probably isn't far above his market value. He's not even 29 yet. Javon Hargrave is 30, and his four-year deal with San Francisco will pay him - worst case - $41MM over two years. Hargrave had a better 2022 than Leo, who played hurt much of the year on a much weaker defense, but they are in the same echelon.
RE: RE: I'm curious why they haven't done something with Leo yet
Exactly! He isn’t the same. He production has really declined. Lucky for us Dex production has increased.
Really declined? He dealt with an injury for most of the year that kept him out of four games and limited his effectiveness in many others, yet his numbers were still on par with years 3 and 4 with the Jets and the year he got traded.
RE: Eric on LI: I don't think they have much leverage over Williams.
His $18MM salary probably isn't far above his market value. He's not even 29 yet. Javon Hargrave is 30, and his four-year deal with San Francisco will pay him - worst case - $41MM over two years. Hargrave had a better 2022 than Leo, who played hurt much of the year on a much weaker defense, but they are in the same echelon.
hargrave is coming off a year where he was a credible DPOY candidate. williams is coming off a year where he battled injuries for the first time in his career.
hargave hit UFA day 1 when everyone was flush with cap room. williams will only hit FA when the giants cut him, which could be after the draft like bradberry least year when league wide cap space was basically gone.
the giants have cash leverage on williams because any extension with them likely converts his 18m base into more guaranteed $ than that over the life of the deal whereas a cut later in the offseason likely means a paycut and 1 year deal next year (just like bradberry last year).
Eric on LI: I take your point about timing, and it's valid.
The problem is another similarity to the Bradberry situation: cutting Williams would leave a massive hole in the defense. The Giants cut Bradberry because, in the end, they had no choice.
As much as I have hated everything about Dave Gettleman's handling of Leonard Williams, I don't think cutting him this year makes much sense, if they have any choice at all. So the threat may not be credible, which means it doesn't convey much leverage. Getting cut in May would stink for Williams. It might be even worse for the team.
RE: Eric on LI: I take your point about timing, and it's valid.
The problem is another similarity to the Bradberry situation: cutting Williams would leave a massive hole in the defense. The Giants cut Bradberry because, in the end, they had no choice.
As much as I have hated everything about Dave Gettleman's handling of Leonard Williams, I don't think cutting him this year makes much sense, if they have any choice at all. So the threat may not be credible, which means it doesn't convey much leverage. Getting cut in May would stink for Williams. It might be even worse for the team.
i dont think they are cutting him, but the money isnt guaranteed so anything is possible. im just saying he has more to lose than they do (the 18m new cash he's scheduled to make). they could probably cut him and sign calais the next day for a lot less than the 12m in cap room they save.
RE: Eric on LI: I take your point about timing, and it's valid.
The problem is another similarity to the Bradberry situation: cutting Williams would leave a massive hole in the defense....I don't think cutting him this year makes much sense, if they have any choice at all. So the threat may not be credible, which means it doesn't convey much leverage. Getting cut in May would stink for Williams. It might be even worse for the team.
I know I'm butting in your convo with Eric, sorry to miller, but your point BBB is the flip side of my post above about timing and why I think JS goes DL or edge Day 1 or 2.
RE: This is why taking the Golladay cap hit this year...
They will need that space next year for Dex and Xavier. Leo is the guy they need to figure out. I love the guy but he needs less snaps and a reasonable deal. . I'm going to assume they have a lot of this mapped out.
RE: This is why taking the Golladay cap hit this year...
The Giants are finally operating under normal order with their resources. They are out of the acute issues they had last year.
All of this "this guy over that guy" is silly. On a 2-3 year horizon these contracts with 5-7M in guarantees are both fungible and maneuverable.
They'll either need to restructure or extend one or more deals to make room to operate and continue to add depth. But if they wanted Love for instance, 12M in total cap space wasn't the issue.
RE: RE: This is why taking the Golladay cap hit this year...
This type of move, by itself, does not utilize cap space from subsequent years. That's because, if you convert salary to bonus and don't use that space this year, it will roll forward to the next league year and offset the hit you pushed into the future.
What takes space from subsequent years is actually using the space on other deals, like Campbell and Slayton. A bit in the weeds, I guess, and maybe a distinction without a difference.
You had me confused for a minute when you wrote, "This type of move, by itself, does not utilize cap space from subsequent years." Do you mean, "does not utilize cap space IN subsequent years"?
He's pricey but Dex will be too, as will AT, etc. Keep the talent, find Edges, WRs, and CBs in the draft for now.
+1
We need the ILB position shored up too. Darrian Beavers seemed like he was turning heads until he got injured and missed the season (not bad for a 6th round pick). Hope he can come back this year and fill that gap. The interior of the OL is also in need of improvement. Marcus McKethan missed last season, and like Beavers seems like he was making an impression at OG (5th rounder). Hopefully both of these kids can come back from being injured red-shirters and contribute this upcoming season, as well as in the future. Love is a loss too of course at S.
If Waller produces this year, his contract will need to be reworked.
this is where the benefit of trades vs. FA signings is helpful w/r/t cap. the same manipulation could have (or could still) be done with someone like hopkins or sutton if they really wanted to, though i dont expect that to happen.
Ooops. I was thinking he only had two years under contract. He does have 4.
If Waller produces this year, his contract will need to be reworked.
no more than any other contract with a high base salary - which for next year is currently just him and jones.
his base salaries each of the next 3 years after this one were above 10m, which means this same manipulation to save space will be on the table whenever they want to create room.
he and jones are the only 2 base salaries over 5m on the books for next year.
@DDuggan21
·
9m
Have been telling you this has been coming for days. This doesn’t really create space for more signings; it creates the space needed for the signings they’ve already made
@rydunleavy
·
8m
#Giants already essentially spent some of this space, I believe. Also this means it won’t be a clean break after 2023 if they cut him, but the trade was made with the expectation to have Waller for multiple seasons. The key is his health
@FieldYates
Replying to
@DDuggan21
My bad. No void Year added. I just counted the years wrong on the initial tweet. It’s $7,376,250 in savings.
Got it. Thx
same reason there's no deal with barkley yet, that's a negotiation not a unilateral decision unless they just cut him, which there's no real rush to do.
based on what he said in his comments after the season i wouldnt be surprised if leo's new deal is sort of being discussed in tandem to the lawrence extension.
Exactly! He isn’t the same. He production has really declined. Lucky for us Dex production has increased.
Quote:
same reason there's no deal with barkley yet, that's a negotiation not a unilateral decision unless they just cut him, which there's no real rush to do.
based on what he said in his comments after the season i wouldnt be surprised if leo's new deal is sort of being discussed in tandem to the lawrence extension.
I kind of think, maybe another factor in waiting on Leo, is that with all the hoopla surrounding NYG and a #1 WR, or a CB, or an IOL, Schoen and Brown may be zeroing in on DL or Edge, maybe the guy from IA if he's still on the board when they pick, or another sleeper at one of those positions. Maybe the wait on Leo is to let sleeping dogs lie.
What takes space from subsequent years is actually using the space on other deals, like Campbell and Slayton. A bit in the weeds, I guess, and maybe a distinction without a difference.
I’m guessing they were trying, but he is maybe taking a harder stand on the #s.
they have the cash leverage over williams bc right now he has $0 guaranteed this year.
in the interim i think they have been focused on jones/barkley, then trades/UFA, which they are probably still in the thick of with Love and some other DBs.
we know they've started conversations with lawrence re extension and that will likely be a number above 100m. before they settle on the structure of that deal they probably wanted to see how any new multi-year deals fit into the puzzle - like Waller's. once they are done on multi-year FA deals i expect they will pivot more seriously to lawrence, and as they do that i think they will engage more seriously with williams to then fit his future $ around Lawrence's.
adoree jackson is probably a less complicated extension to work out now if he's a guy they want to extend. if not they should be shopping him on the trade market a year early and saving another 6m off the cap to go out and sign a couple replacements like averett/ya sin or whoever. but jackson is better than those guys so i think it probably makes more sense to extend him off a solid but unspectacular season.
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I’m guessing they were trying, but he is maybe taking a harder stand on the #s.
Yeah, I feel like Williams' team has very much enjoyed the fleecing they inflicted upon Gettleman and probably snickers at any attempt to mitigate it.
Quote:
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Exactly! He isn’t the same. He production has really declined. Lucky for us Dex production has increased.
Really declined? He dealt with an injury for most of the year that kept him out of four games and limited his effectiveness in many others, yet his numbers were still on par with years 3 and 4 with the Jets and the year he got traded.
hargrave is coming off a year where he was a credible DPOY candidate. williams is coming off a year where he battled injuries for the first time in his career.
hargave hit UFA day 1 when everyone was flush with cap room. williams will only hit FA when the giants cut him, which could be after the draft like bradberry least year when league wide cap space was basically gone.
the giants have cash leverage on williams because any extension with them likely converts his 18m base into more guaranteed $ than that over the life of the deal whereas a cut later in the offseason likely means a paycut and 1 year deal next year (just like bradberry last year).
As much as I have hated everything about Dave Gettleman's handling of Leonard Williams, I don't think cutting him this year makes much sense, if they have any choice at all. So the threat may not be credible, which means it doesn't convey much leverage. Getting cut in May would stink for Williams. It might be even worse for the team.
As much as I have hated everything about Dave Gettleman's handling of Leonard Williams, I don't think cutting him this year makes much sense, if they have any choice at all. So the threat may not be credible, which means it doesn't convey much leverage. Getting cut in May would stink for Williams. It might be even worse for the team.
i dont think they are cutting him, but the money isnt guaranteed so anything is possible. im just saying he has more to lose than they do (the 18m new cash he's scheduled to make). they could probably cut him and sign calais the next day for a lot less than the 12m in cap room they save.
They will need that space next year for Dex and Xavier. Leo is the guy they need to figure out. I love the guy but he needs less snaps and a reasonable deal. . I'm going to assume they have a lot of this mapped out.
You’ll feel differently next season when the cap hit is gone…
All of this "this guy over that guy" is silly. On a 2-3 year horizon these contracts with 5-7M in guarantees are both fungible and maneuverable.
They'll either need to restructure or extend one or more deals to make room to operate and continue to add depth. But if they wanted Love for instance, 12M in total cap space wasn't the issue.
Quote:
didn't make much sense to me.
You’ll feel differently next season when the cap hit is gone…
Bingo.
What takes space from subsequent years is actually using the space on other deals, like Campbell and Slayton. A bit in the weeds, I guess, and maybe a distinction without a difference.
You had me confused for a minute when you wrote, "This type of move, by itself, does not utilize cap space from subsequent years." Do you mean, "does not utilize cap space IN subsequent years"?
+1
We need the ILB position shored up too. Darrian Beavers seemed like he was turning heads until he got injured and missed the season (not bad for a 6th round pick). Hope he can come back this year and fill that gap. The interior of the OL is also in need of improvement. Marcus McKethan missed last season, and like Beavers seems like he was making an impression at OG (5th rounder). Hopefully both of these kids can come back from being injured red-shirters and contribute this upcoming season, as well as in the future. Love is a loss too of course at S.