Leonard Williams

this doesn’t diminish their overall value. Go back to the years when the Giants were great against the run ... it’s because they had rotational depth which allows the stars to really shine when needed. This was true in the late 80s, 90s, and the Coughlin SB years. They also had strong ILBs. Fix these issues (as they appear to be doing) and LW will be a beast.

Williams actually made a comment a few months back that he would take less money so he could keep playing next to Dexter Lawrence. It’s clear he wants to be a Giant and he’s got plenty left in the tank.

In comment 16070488 Gogiantsgo said:

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Why are posters so hostile? I didn't say they should do it. I just asked if it was a possibility. And he definitely is on the downside of his career. He's still a good player (as I said), but he's not what he previously was.

They’ve had one good year in basically a decade. That leads to hostility lol. Welcome to BBI.

In comment 16070492 arniefez said:

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But listening to the BBV podcast today maybe it's more of a possibility than I thought. Apparently Williams team is difficult to negotiate with and if the Giants FO can't get a contract adjustment that works for them they could cut him and use that money to replace him. Williams a very good player who is becoming less dependable. There's a lot of mileage on his body and he's starting to miss games. I can't imagine he's going to play 2023 with a 32M cap hit. I think one way or another that number is going to change before training camp.

Use the money to replace him with who. The top DLs are pretty much already signed. Robinson may be one of the last quality DLs left. We’re in tough shape without him. Dex, Robinson and Nacho. Ugh.

In comment 16070498 christian said:

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Williams is entering his 9th NFL season, and has logged 7000 snaps. He was injured down the stretch in 2021 and then again in 2022. He's not the same profile of a player he was when he signed. No way is he cut, because there would be a trade market for him. Especially if the Giants ate a little bit of the money. In my view Williams is a 15M a player, and I expect his extension to reflect that.

There would be no trade market for Leonard Williams for multiple reasons:

A. He is owed a base salary of $18 million in 2023 with a total cap hit of $32.26 million. Not only would other teams not be willing to pay that, but few teams could even fit a number that large under the cap this season. The Giants would have to either eat a ton of money or throw in a draft pick to make it more appealing for a team which I highly doubt Schoen would be willing to do.

B. other teams know that the Giants have to do something with his contract, and would likely just wait for his release.

openly talked about him as a core player.

then cut one of your best starters? makes no sense.

they're already light. They need to figure out if and how to extend him in a market where the top players are getting access to the Brink's truck and not much is flowing in via the draft yet. He's still an important piece of the defense and would create another big hole to fill.

In comment 16070506 Vin_Cuccs said:

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No way is he cut, because there would be a trade market for him. Especially if the Giants ate a little bit of the money. In my view Williams is a 15M a player, and I expect his extension to reflect that. There would be no trade market for Leonard Williams for multiple reasons: A. He is owed a base salary of $18 million in 2023 with a total cap hit of $32.26 million. Not only would other teams not be willing to pay that, but few teams could even fit a number that large under the cap this season. The Giants would have to either eat a ton of money or throw in a draft pick to make it more appealing for a team which I highly doubt Schoen would be willing to do. B. other teams know that the Giants have to do something with his contract, and would likely just wait for his release.

I disagree. The Giants aren't up against a financial cliff with Williams. They have a number of other ways to create room to operate.

And the 20.2M (in 23 + 24) in amortized bonus commitments are irrelevant, that's a sunk cost the Giants must book ti their cap at some point.

To the outside world Leonard Williams is on a 1-year, 18M contract. The only question is what would it take it to entice a team to trade for him.

If the Giants made that 1-year, 12M -- I think the Giants could net a top 60 pick.

Dex, Leo, Nick Williams, DJ Davidson the draft pick, Justin Ellis, and a bunch of guys whose names I cant even remember once Nick WIlliams and Davidson went on IR.


So you main rotation was FIVE. Due to injuries and the crap playing behind them Dex and Leo played a ridiculous amount of snaps last year.

This year you are looking at Dex, Leo, Nacho, Robinson if he signs and Davidson the rookie as your main 5. Robinson and Nacho are depth and IMPROVED depth...

I fail to understand why Giants fans dont grasp this.

whether LW is worth $18MM for a year. I think the answer is yes, but if it is a clear no, then paycut or move on. If it is maybe then you think about a replacement (upgrade?) and move on. I don't think you can get much in trade for him, because shopping him points to a "you don't think he is worth it" mindset.

versus fiddling with his contract, if a buyer can be found.

LW still a good player but paid great and not as impactful as Dex. What a surprise LW openly says he wants to play next to a guy who gets double-teamed far more often.

His market value should still be good and bringing in more pick(s) right now for LW would allow Schoen to go find his cheaper replacement and continue the longer term rebuild.

Wouldn’t it have to just be a pay cut or extension? Or can they still push money out to future years even if he is not under contract?

Leo at 29 isn't likely to agree to a paycut, and why should he while in his prime and with what his peers are earning, not to mention Dex's upcoming contract.

In comment 16070472 Rick in Dallas said:

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To free up cap space.

.

Schoen had to do that last year, now his cap hit is about
32 M this year. I'm not sure he would do that again, but he might?
Their cap situation was just brutal last year.

running down our throats with little resistance really rubbed me the wrong way. Williams has been a nice performer but he's got a lot of wear and tear on him and we should be careful not to pay for past performance and rather should try to project future performance.

His cap hit is obscene and I'm not sure offering him even more guaranteed money to stretch that cap hit out makes sense.

And what he wants. I don't see the Giants in a position to give him a longterm extension at FMV. If he's motivated to be here maybe they find a solution. If it's not a priority, I can see him shopped. I'm the camp that believes he would have a market, even if it's not a premium pick. If he is moved, I would expect them to replace him with 2 bargain signings.

he’s relatively young still. Injuries happen and that’s what the depth is supposed to be for. Cut him and you have an even bigger problem trying to keep up in our division with the OLs we face.

Yes he's expensive and he's been banged up, but there's nothing to replace him should he take a play or two off. Even if we sign someone like A'Shawn Robinson, Robinson's only played part-time snaps throughout his career (even in his most notable year 2021 he played less than half the snaps) and doesn't offer much in the passing game (7 sacks over 8 years).

In comment 16070539 No1MDGiantsFan said:

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Wouldn’t it have to just be a pay cut or extension? Or can they still push money out to future years even if he is not under contract?

This is a great question. If the Giants didn't do anything with Leo's contract they COULD restructure him into the 2024 void year. Which would be stupid because they'd just add onto the 6M of dead money already assigned to 2024 for Leo's cap number.

The Giants can just let Leo play out his last year of his contract (this year) and move on while keeping the cap hit to this year. Or they will extend him and then possibly restructure so they have more room to spread out the hit. Not sure which way they will go.

His cap hit is what? He gets paid overpaid, or to be politically correct, he gets every penny he can squeeze on every contract. Those are 2 facts. Another fact is tve amount of money we save if we cut him now. Another fact is that we signed 1 DT and have another here. If I add up the facts, cutting him is not out of the question because this man is not reasonable when it comes to his contracts. Just look at his annual compensation. It's eye popping. Cutting him a year too soon is better then cutting him a year too late.

All things equal -- if Leonard Williams was an UFA -- what contract would you like the Giants to give him?

That's really the only question to be answered.

In comment 16070588 PaulN said:

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His cap hit is what? He gets paid overpaid, or to be politically correct, he gets every penny he can squeeze on every contract. Those are 2 facts. Another fact is tve amount of money we save if we cut him now. Another fact is that we signed 1 DT and have another here. If I add up the facts, cutting him is not out of the question because this man is not reasonable when it comes to his contracts. Just look at his annual compensation. It's eye popping. Cutting him a year too soon is better then cutting him a year too late.

Nacho is a NT by trade, he'd backup Dexter Lawrence.

In comment 16070590 christian said:

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All things equal -- if Leonard Williams was an UFA -- what contract would you like the Giants to give him? That's really the only question to be answered.

He’s probably get 18ish on the open market. Somewhere in he Jones-Hargrave range

Leo is “guaranteed” 18 this year if we keep him. Say we guarantee him 24 over the next to years. Say, 14 this year and 10 next year. Then the dead cap for this year, 14m, gets spread over two years. He’s on the books for about 21/22 each year So this year’s savings are about 10/11m and he’s signed for next year at 21/22. This saves cap this year and keeps him for one more so we can develop his replacement. The real cap guys here can kill me if this is wrong. If you just think it’s too much then tell me what you think he will sign for.

stated he would rather give money to players in-house AND has mentioned Leo as one of his core players, he's not going anywhere. They will extend him and balance out his cap hits. With less snaps per game, he will be much more effective this year.

not seeing motivation for him to take less than market, especially after he sees Dex's new deal.

is right now while he probably has some market worth. Seems fair to say he peaked perfectly when he was looking for the big second contract. Team LW played that beautifully.

But I'm betting LW has seen better days. And maybe we can get a decent pick or two in a trade. There is simply no need to tie up big money with multiple DTs. Just an unwise use of cap funds.

had a neck stinger or some other neck "thing". Think he's still got high level performance.

Thought Giants' defense two main issues were lack of quality LBs and depth. Painfully apparent when LW or Dex were out. If Williams is cut or traded, you kind of defeat the prupose of bringing in the depth players.

But, anyone is tradeable.

In comment 16070614 JonC said:

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not seeing motivation for him to take less than market, especially after he sees Dex's new deal.

He shouldn't take less than market.

In fact, we want the actual market for LW services to be fairly strong which means Schoen has optionality to move LW for a good price.

In comment 16070630 bc4life said:

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had a neck stinger or some other neck "thing". Think he's still got high level performance. Thought Giants' defense two main issues were lack of quality LBs and depth. Painfully apparent when LW or Dex were out. If Williams is cut or traded, you kind of defeat the prupose of bringing in the depth players. But, anyone is tradeable.

At 29, he could be wearing down some. Think taking 20% less snaps week after week might change that tune and keep him fresh and healthier

IMO, these are the likeliest outcomes.

1. Extended to lower his cap number.
2. Plays out his last year.
3. Cut or traded

Same with Adoree Jackson, although we are much thinner at CB without Jackson.

In comment 16070638 chick310 said:

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In comment 16070614 JonC said: Quote: not seeing motivation for him to take less than market, especially after he sees Dex's new deal. He shouldn't take less than market. In fact, we want the actual market for LW services to be fairly strong which means Schoen has optionality to move LW for a good price.

Agreed, but I'm not sure Schoen is very far down that road, if at all. Next move(s) should provide some clue.

Yes, has had a relatively healthy career. But he is creeping up on 30 and it is very violent game.

two key pieces. DE and OLB (replace Olujari). Williams plays the 5tech in addition to some inside work.

They need to add another Williams. If you lose him then make it two. Good luck with that and filling other positions of need. They played without this most of the year.

Right now they have two upper tier players on the D front (Leo and Lawrence). Hopefully Thibs takes a big step and the new ILB is the real deal.

Add a DE in the draft and this D will take a very big step as soon as next year.

This team does play in the NFCE and upper tier/elite fronts are needed.

Now if there are genuine concerns with his injuries from this year that is a entirely different stance on what needs to be done. If not you extend him.

he would get more than 20 year one and he could give you a high comp pick if we do not resign. I would prefer to work out an extension.

..to the defense's overall level of play to move on from, and I would argue his level will rise vs. 2022 as the surrounding cast and depth improves. He and Dex have been on the field quite a lot in the last 2 seasons.

I don't think the option of making him a true core guy over the length of the DJ deal is an option with the Dex deal looming. Would need to be a new money solution where both sides know he's here for another 2 years max and the Giants can spread out that hit.

I am guessing Schoen would prefer to keep him here but it's a tough needle to thread.

In comment 16070583 Tim in Eternal Blue said:

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In comment 16070539 No1MDGiantsFan said: Quote: Wouldn’t it have to just be a pay cut or extension? Or can they still push money out to future years even if he is not under contract? This is a great question. If the Giants didn't do anything with Leo's contract they COULD restructure him into the 2024 void year. Which would be stupid because they'd just add onto the 6M of dead money already assigned to 2024 for Leo's cap number. The Giants can just let Leo play out his last year of his contract (this year) and move on while keeping the cap hit to this year. Or they will extend him and then possibly restructure so they have more room to spread out the hit. Not sure which way they will go.

Makes sense! I hope they extend him AND he takes a pay cut.

yep.

You absolutely cannot get into the emotional hoops of the dead money and cap hits from bonuses.

The Giants signed Williams and valued him at 63M for 3 years. What year they parked those dollars for salary cap purposes is a balance sheet exercise.

The only worthwhile discussion left is what they value Williams at this and the following years.

If they believe he's a special, difficult to replace player -- then be prepared for another big agreement. Because you better believe Team Williams isn't giving out discounts if that's true. Barnes and Parker haven't given an inch to NYG.

Javon Hargrave, with similar miles on him, just netted 4/81m with 40M guaranteed.

In comment 16070688 christian said:

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You absolutely cannot get into the emotional hoops of the dead money and cap hits from bonuses. The Giants signed Williams and valued him at 63M for 3 years. What year they parked those dollars for salary cap purposes is a balance sheet exercise. The only worthwhile discussion left is what they value Williams at this and the following years. If they believe he's a special, difficult to replace player -- then be prepared for another big agreement. Because you better believe Team Williams isn't giving out discounts if that's true. Barnes and Parker haven't given an inch to NYG. Javon Hargrave, with similar miles on him, just netted 4/81m with 40M guaranteed.

Exactly. If they truly value his production, they’ll extend/retructure or whatever financial commitment they opt for. He’s had an off season to heal and return for 3-4 more productive years, imv..He’s a cog.

Williams salary for 2023 is 18M but he counts 32M against the cap and he has 0 money guaranteed.

So there is financial incentive for both sides to create a new deal. But when I hear multiple podcasters who have sources close to the Giants talk about how difficult it is to negotiate with his agents, it makes me think that the Giants may not find a new Williams deal they want to live with.

When I speculated they could use his money to replace him, that doesn't mean with just another DT. Maybe the plan would be to sign 2 less expensive run stuffing DTs and a FA CB with that money?

It appears there was/is no option in FA or at #25 in the draft to find a #1 X receiver this year so the Giants got creative and traded for a TE with the intention to make him their potential #1 receiving option. Then they added a fast separation WR receiver to compliment him.

Maybe the plan on defense is to be creative too. Maybe they would rather invest money in CBs rather than 2 high-priced DTs? I think Lawrence will get a market setting DT contract. Maybe adding more money and years on top of the Lawrence contract to a 29 year old DT who is starting to wear down isn't in the budget? Look at the receivers in the division and the Giants CB depth. Wink has said CBs are as important to him as the pass rush. Maybe the Giants want to spread the money around?

Obviously I'm just guessing. This is just my speculation and I think it's it a lot of fun to have smart people running the Giants football operation and try to think along with them.

I will be surprised if Leonard Williams isn't on the 2023 Giants but I won't be shocked.

I am not sure how bullish I would be on Williams on a 4-year horizon with 7000 snaps on his belt.

I'd certainly sign up for 2 more years of Leonard Williams.

In comment 16070772 christian said:

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I am not sure how bullish I would be on Williams on a 4-year horizon with 7000 snaps on his belt. I'd certainly sign up for 2 more years of Leonard Williams.

2-3 years, that’s fine

They are not getting rid of him. Outside of the few games last year, he is always healthy and plays a lot.

He is still the guy double teamed more than anyone on the DL.

Get some depth guys who can actually play, so he and Dex can get some additional rest

without LW, Dex suffers

You can easily move money from this year and guarantee his 2024 and still move on at 30 if need be. you just eliminate a voidable year.

In comment 16070479 George from PA said:

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More likely an extension. Big Dex and Lenord William are special. All the others are hopefully above jag.

Agree. But they both were asked to play way too much. Not anyone's fault due to injury but the fact that only Leo broke down was a miracle. Both guys need about 2/3s to 3/4s of the snaps they took last year.

The early reports out of camp he was arguably the best player on the field.

He hurt his elbow end of camp, then sprained his knee week 2, then got the neck injury which F'd him the rest of the season. Wasn't healthy for 1 game. Terribly frustrating year for him.

If he's healthy (and only the Giants know) he projects as a top notch player again.

see a trade during the draft. Esp with what the cost will be for Lawrence.

In comment 16070611 BillT said:

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Leo is “guaranteed” 18 this year if we keep him. Say we guarantee him 24 over the next to years. Say, 14 this year and 10 next year.

if he just plays out this year at 18, he should still get the 10, possibly more, next year from somebody, no?