don't see Feliciano or Gates as big losses frankly. Thomas and Neal are the only irreplaceable OL right now. Everyone else is a journeyman or unproven.
I also don't think the Giants allowing Feliciano to leave says anything about how they feel about Lemieux. He's been injured a lot.
Good luck to Feliciano.
Feliciano played a lot better than Glowinski, and he cost a hell of a lot less, and he can play center.
This was a big loss, especially considering that Schoen has ignored OL in free agency so far.
don't see Feliciano or Gates as big losses frankly. Thomas and Neal are the only irreplaceable OL right now. Everyone else is a journeyman or unproven.
I also don't think the Giants allowing Feliciano to leave says anything about how they feel about Lemieux. He's been injured a lot.
Good luck to Feliciano.
Feliciano played a lot better than Glowinski, and he cost a hell of a lot less, and he can play center.
This was a big loss, especially considering that Schoen has ignored OL in free agency so far.
Take deep breath. Feliciano is not a good center, he’s barely average. Did it ever occur to you who Glowinski was bookended by? Hint: not good, and worse.
Daboll and Schoen felt comfortable enough to let him go.
We'll see how things unravel.
Did they?
Or did they just assume they were going to be able to get him at numbers they dictated, and it didn't happen. I doubt the plan was to have no center AFTER they spent what they in an FA thus forcing a pick in the drat.
Unless the plan is to throw Bredeson or some other random scrub out there at center. Sure feels like we've seen this play before. If no decent pick for a center is there when the giants are picking, and other positions of real value and need ar on the board when our picks come up, tell, then exactly how this is any different from Gettleman's tenure?
PS-Sure seems they are building the core of this team around what DG brought in, so far. And no, I'm not a gelleman apologist, just making note of what I'm observing.
If youngsters step up and improve IOL of ezuedu,BB, SL, glow and mckethen may be workable
And of course once of our top two picks could be IOL. Heck it may be two picks over first 5 rds
Maybe it came down to him wanting to return to the Bay area. He's originally from New York, but his family moved to Florida a long time ago. I guess he'll play guard, with Brendel remaining at center.
Or maybe the Giants simply decided to move on. Although he's far from the worst center in the League, I don't expect he'll be a big loss. (I know - be careful what you wish for.)
Or maybe they miscalculated and assumed he wouldn't get offered better than what they put up, or assumed he would just accept it. They've done nothing for the O-line so far in FA. Shades of Gettleman.
A step in the right direction at getting better at Center,
as the types to not have a plan. I wasn't a huge fan of Feliciano; too many illegal man down field penalties for a 'smart center' among other things. BUT he was a decent 'body' at a key position, so I'm thinking they have a plan. Could be for someone in house could be FA but i also think its going to be in the draft. It seems that most SB contenders more and more have an above average to 'Elite' center if you can call it elite....
RE: RE: Feliciano spent the first four years of his career in Oakland.
Maybe it came down to him wanting to return to the Bay area. He's originally from New York, but his family moved to Florida a long time ago. I guess he'll play guard, with Brendel remaining at center.
Or maybe the Giants simply decided to move on. Although he's far from the worst center in the League, I don't expect he'll be a big loss. (I know - be careful what you wish for.)
Or maybe they miscalculated and assumed he wouldn't get offered better than what they put up, or assumed he would just accept it. They've done nothing for the O-line so far in FA. Shades of Gettleman.
"Shades of Gettleman?" Does Nate Solder ring a bell? Patrick Omameh? Maybe Schoen looked at the players under contract and concluded that there weren't any UFA's that were significantly better than what they had now, and weren't worth signing. Maybe he decided to wait until the draft to address the OC position, not necessarily in the first round, but before Day 2 is out. I don't know, but it seems to me he's nothing like Gettleman.
..who can't anchor. For every highlight with an interior IOL showing good lateral movement, there seemed to be two drives that were hamstrung by the pocket collapsing early. More JF wasn't the answer for me. As Sy said last draft season, veteran FAs are to keep the bottom from falling out. Need to aim higher.
John is a center and a very good one but he has to gain more strength in his upper and lower body if he is going to play a 17-game schedule in the NFL. Teams will load up and play a defensive lineman on his nose and it will not matter how athletic he is, he will struggle and need help, and a center needing help as opposed to a center giving help will be a big-time problem. A center who needs help is giving up the interior of the offensive line and the quickest way into the backfield. Nevertheless, because of the more athletic quarterbacks and spread offenses, having an athletic, light center is more of a positive than a negative in the new NFL. I what my guards to be able to play center but I don’t necessarily want my center to be able to play guard because my center should be more difficult to replace than a guard. John will get stronger and he is smart, and with better coaching, should be able to handle a bull rush with better strength.
In comment 16071413 Red Right Hand said:
[quote] In comment 16071043 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
Maybe it came down to him wanting to return to the Bay area. He's originally from New York, but his family moved to Florida a long time ago. I guess he'll play guard, with Brendel remaining at center.
Or maybe the Giants simply decided to move on. Although he's far from the worst center in the League, I don't expect he'll be a big loss. (I know - be careful what you wish for.)
Or maybe they miscalculated and assumed he wouldn't get offered better than what they put up, or assumed he would just accept it. They've done nothing for the O-line so far in FA. Shades of Gettleman. [/quote
Curious, why are you discounting resources spent on the O line last season; they a none factor?
The draft coming and maybe a second wave of FA. There is also the possibility they already have a plan in place with the current roster.
Given the past year and a half and the track record of Schoen and Dabol during that time frame your take seems unduly harsh and overstated
JM Schmidt (Bobby Johnson ran his pro day), he is listed as a G/C. I think they will look in that direction for flexibility. They will figure this out.
Its funny how some on BBI are acting like losing JF will
be our downfall. Don't get me wrong, I understand we need IOL help(and for Neal to step up), But Racer was right about Sy being right(thats a nod to Blazing Saddles) about veteran FA's. When we signed JF half the board melted down about how crappy he was. JS put together a line that was an improvement over previous years with help from the coaching staff and a scheme that seemed to play to our strenghts. I don't think there was much more upside with JF and they probably didn't think Gates would get that offer from Wash. But they have Bredeson and Ezudu and I believe they'll sign someone else in FA but their plan is to upgrade at C and I am HOPING they have a plan should their top choice be swooped up in front of them.
I thought Gates was a better C than Feliciano, and Bredeson may
be better than both of them, so I wouldn't be surprised if he is part of the gran plan and Ezudu is the LG, McKethen the RG with some vet depth brought in in case. and possible help in the draft.
Maybe it came down to him wanting to return to the Bay area. He's originally from New York, but his family moved to Florida a long time ago. I guess he'll play guard, with Brendel remaining at center.
Or maybe the Giants simply decided to move on. Although he's far from the worst center in the League, I don't expect he'll be a big loss. (I know - be careful what you wish for.)
Or maybe they miscalculated and assumed he wouldn't get offered better than what they put up, or assumed he would just accept it. They've done nothing for the O-line so far in FA. Shades of Gettleman.
"Shades of Gettleman?" Does Nate Solder ring a bell? Patrick Omameh? Maybe Schoen looked at the players under contract and concluded that there weren't any UFA's that were significantly better than what they had now, and weren't worth signing. Maybe he decided to wait until the draft to address the OC position, not necessarily in the first round, but before Day 2 is out. I don't know, but it seems to me he's nothing like Gettleman.
NOT signing a FA to the OL, and THEN choosing a different position player during the draft because the value was simply too good to pass up in managements opinion is very much what happened under gettleman. He said so himself when asked why. You Can't see Schoen passing up on a the best available center because some player expected to be gone in the top 12 , at a position of need for us, no less, is still there at 25? You can't see that happening in the second round as well? I can. That's EXACTLY what happens when you draft " best player available". Certainly don't see how someone saying " shades" is a strecth. You act like I said he was a clone.
RE: It is what it is, but it just puts a little more pressure
on them to hit in the draft. Not only that, but there needs to be a big improvement in Neal's game.
So you pass on best player available , possibly at a position of need, but best player available at any rate to take a center? Or you wind up without a viable replacement center through the draft because it worked out that value at other positions available when our pick comes up is too good to pass up? You may not be able to have it both ways.
RE: RE: RE: Feliciano spent the first four years of his career in Oakland.
In comment 16071413 Red Right Hand said:
[quote] In comment 16071043 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
Maybe it came down to him wanting to return to the Bay area. He's originally from New York, but his family moved to Florida a long time ago. I guess he'll play guard, with Brendel remaining at center.
Or maybe the Giants simply decided to move on. Although he's far from the worst center in the League, I don't expect he'll be a big loss. (I know - be careful what you wish for.)
Or maybe they miscalculated and assumed he wouldn't get offered better than what they put up, or assumed he would just accept it. They've done nothing for the O-line so far in FA. Shades of Gettleman. [/quote
Curious, why are you discounting resources spent on the O line last season; they a none factor?
The draft coming and maybe a second wave of FA. There is also the possibility they already have a plan in place with the current roster.
Given the past year and a half and the track record of Schoen and Dabol during that time frame your take seems unduly harsh and overstated
It's overly harsh to entertain the possibility they planned on having him back, and he decided to move on after they allocated assets they would have possibly used to replace him ?
How so?
Why is that so unlikely?
RE: RE: It is what it is, but it just puts a little more pressure
on them to hit in the draft. Not only that, but there needs to be a big improvement in Neal's game.
So you pass on best player available , possibly at a position of need, but best player available at any rate to take a center? Or you wind up without a viable replacement center through the draft because it worked out that value at other positions available when our pick comes up is too good to pass up? You may not be able to have it both ways.
I definitely understand your 'Shadesof Gettleman' comment, as fans we could all see the tragedy slowly unfolding while DG watched it burn. BUT I think this FO and Coaching staff have shown to choose more coachable players and the ability to get more out of them. SOOOO I think even if they did pass on IOL in the top 3 rounds, they obviously feel that what they have now is equal to what they had when JF and NG were here. Perhaps their worst case scenario is picking a couple of players on day 2 and 3 while also looking for talent come summer time. While we as fans have seen that as a disaster in the recent past, perhaps this FO/Staff have more confidence that this is how they want to allocate dollars and build the roster. Not saying itll work but I have more confidence in them coming closer to this plan working than the last couple of staffs.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Feliciano spent the first four years of his career in Oakland.
Or maybe the Giants simply decided to move on. Although he's far from the worst center in the League, I don't expect he'll be a big loss. (I know - be careful what you wish for.)
Or maybe they miscalculated and assumed he wouldn't get offered better than what they put up, or assumed he would just accept it. They've done nothing for the O-line so far in FA. Shades of Gettleman.
"Shades of Gettleman?" Does Nate Solder ring a bell? Patrick Omameh? Maybe Schoen looked at the players under contract and concluded that there weren't any UFA's that were significantly better than what they had now, and weren't worth signing. Maybe he decided to wait until the draft to address the OC position, not necessarily in the first round, but before Day 2 is out. I don't know, but it seems to me he's nothing like Gettleman.
NOT signing a FA to the OL, and THEN choosing a different position player during the draft because the value was simply too good to pass up in managements opinion is very much what happened under gettleman. He said so himself when asked why. You Can't see Schoen passing up on a the best available center because some player expected to be gone in the top 12 , at a position of need for us, no less, is still there at 25? You can't see that happening in the second round as well? I can. That's EXACTLY what happens when you draft " best player available". Certainly don't see how someone saying " shades" is a strecth. You act like I said he was a clone.
What kind of babbling illogic is this?
Gettleman was notoriously (and ridiculously) imprudent when it came to free agency, which is something Schoen decidedly is not. Why you felt the need to even mention the former GM is beyond me.
Schoen has options, and a competent coaching staff whose input he no doubt values (Bobby Johnson, in this instance). Clearly, he considered Feliciano (and Gates) as marginal talents not worth what it would cost to re-sign them, nor would it make sense to spend money on another free agent who wouldn't provide any more of an upgrade than they could already get with Ben Bredeson, who's already under contract.
As for the draft, yes, everyone loves to talk about BPA, but it's almost always balanced with need, which is why most are talking about the Giants drafting CB's and WR's early on. The needs are obvious. The best GM's are the ones who can strike the best balances, draft the best values, and navigate smartly. That's exactly what I expect Schoen to do.
RE: RE: RE: Feliciano spent the first four years of his career in Oakland.
In comment 16071413 Red Right Hand said:
[quote] In comment 16071043 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
Maybe it came down to him wanting to return to the Bay area. He's originally from New York, but his family moved to Florida a long time ago. I guess he'll play guard, with Brendel remaining at center.
Or maybe the Giants simply decided to move on. Although he's far from the worst center in the League, I don't expect he'll be a big loss. (I know - be careful what you wish for.)
Or maybe they miscalculated and assumed he wouldn't get offered better than what they put up, or assumed he would just accept it. They've done nothing for the O-line so far in FA. Shades of Gettleman. [/quote
Curious, why are you discounting resources spent on the O line last season; they a none factor?
Sure seems to me i remember Gettleman sinking shitloads of picks and resources into the o-line, year after year, FAs and picks, and them not working out. Why are we discounting that? you can claim he didn't, but he did. If that's the case, that is a similarity in my view, and, as you said yourself, he sank a lot of assets in to the line last year. I also saw gettleman do NOTHING for the loinge the LAST year he was here, nothing in FA, and then nothing in the draft, because the value wasnt there in the draft. sure seems to me if the value isnt there in the draft when we pick, for a center, but is for another position, and we tajke it, then you could very well wind up in the same position. Likewise, if he DOES pick a OL, and pass up on better value, that would also is similar to "mistakes" gettlemen made.
it;s funny how, if you like a GM, you can provide the excuse that injuries put him on the horns of a dilemna, but if you don't like him, then no excuse is acceptable.
We picks this guy schitt of schmitt or whatever his name is at 25 that Sy doesn't like because he has no sand in his pants and he doesn't pan out, isn't that the same thihing gettleman did? If he passes on him and takes someone of better value, and we are left with an unsatisfactory stopgap playing center this year and jones winds up on his backk agasin because the oline sucks, isn't that the same shit gettleman did?
Gettleman sucks ass, worst GM ever, yet it sure seems Schoen is building the core of this team around his picks.
Don't get me wrong, Gettleman absolutely fucked us royally in his last year here, and with Solder as well, but remember, everyone here was in on that signing at the time.
after year 1 everyone and his brother loved gettleman and wer singing Joe judges paraises, or do you forget?
Maybe my point isn't Gettleman was a good GM ( he wasn't). Or that Schoen is a bad one ( I like Schoen very much.) Maybe it's that the fans here are very subjective and fickle hypocrites with selective memories.
We could very well wind up with no viable center at this point. Injuries and lack of options during the draft did a lot, a lot, to screw us on the o line over the last decade.
Schoen could get lucky and he's a Genius, or he could get unlucky and get run out of town in a couple of years, and if he does, you can be sure Giants fans and BBI will find a way to villainize him on his way out the door. It's how we roll.
TLDR:We needed an upgrade from Feliciano, I didn't care for him. There now may not be better options avaible in FA that we can afford, and the value may not be there at Center when we pick in the draft. and none of it may have a damn thing to do with any plan of Schoen's.
C is the biggest need on this team by a wide margin going into this offseason. Shoen should be on the phone with the Colts about Ryan Kelly at this point. Can't go into this season with a rookie OC and nobody behind him.
RE: RE: RE: It is what it is, but it just puts a little more pressure
on them to hit in the draft. Not only that, but there needs to be a big improvement in Neal's game.
So you pass on best player available , possibly at a position of need, but best player available at any rate to take a center? Or you wind up without a viable replacement center through the draft because it worked out that value at other positions available when our pick comes up is too good to pass up? You may not be able to have it both ways.
I definitely understand your 'Shadesof Gettleman' comment, as fans we could all see the tragedy slowly unfolding while DG watched it burn. BUT I think this FO and Coaching staff have shown to choose more coachable players and the ability to get more out of them. SOOOO I think even if they did pass on IOL in the top 3 rounds, they obviously feel that what they have now is equal to what they had when JF and NG were here. Perhaps their worst case scenario is picking a couple of players on day 2 and 3 while also looking for talent come summer time. While we as fans have seen that as a disaster in the recent past, perhaps this FO/Staff have more confidence that this is how they want to allocate dollars and build the roster. Not saying itll work but I have more confidence in them coming closer to this plan working than the last couple of staffs.
And what I'm saying is, what if they don't? what if they don't think what they have can do the job. That therefore means they MUST somehow have better options? Why? Again, what if Feliciano just left? If the plan was to resign him, just because he left doesn't mean the guys they have are all of a sudden viewed as adequate. Again, you don't know that was thier plan. Or that spending a draft pick in rd one or 2 was the plan either. You HOPE it was the plan. Schoen isn't a wizard, he's just a guy. everyone, and i mean everyone makes plans on what they assume to be the case. That doesn't mean that's how things work out. Either way, I wasn't thrilled with Feliciano, but the point is there may still be pain coming in an area we have been feeling it for too long already.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Feliciano spent the first four years of his career in Oakland.
Or maybe the Giants simply decided to move on. Although he's far from the worst center in the League, I don't expect he'll be a big loss. (I know - be careful what you wish for.)
Or maybe they miscalculated and assumed he wouldn't get offered better than what they put up, or assumed he would just accept it. They've done nothing for the O-line so far in FA. Shades of Gettleman.
"Shades of Gettleman?" Does Nate Solder ring a bell? Patrick Omameh? Maybe Schoen looked at the players under contract and concluded that there weren't any UFA's that were significantly better than what they had now, and weren't worth signing. Maybe he decided to wait until the draft to address the OC position, not necessarily in the first round, but before Day 2 is out. I don't know, but it seems to me he's nothing like Gettleman.
NOT signing a FA to the OL, and THEN choosing a different position player during the draft because the value was simply too good to pass up in managements opinion is very much what happened under gettleman. He said so himself when asked why. You Can't see Schoen passing up on a the best available center because some player expected to be gone in the top 12 , at a position of need for us, no less, is still there at 25? You can't see that happening in the second round as well? I can. That's EXACTLY what happens when you draft " best player available". Certainly don't see how someone saying " shades" is a strecth. You act like I said he was a clone.
What kind of babbling illogic is this?
Gettleman was notoriously (and ridiculously) imprudent when it came to free agency, which is something Schoen decidedly is not. Why you felt the need to even mention the former GM is beyond me.
Schoen has options, and a competent coaching staff whose input he no doubt values (Bobby Johnson, in this instance). Clearly, he considered Feliciano (and Gates) as marginal talents not worth what it would cost to re-sign them, nor would it make sense to spend money on another free agent who wouldn't provide any more of an upgrade than they could already get with Ben Bredeson, who's already under contract.
As for the draft, yes, everyone loves to talk about BPA, but it's almost always balanced with need, which is why most are talking about the Giants drafting CB's and WR's early on. The needs are obvious. The best GM's are the ones who can strike the best balances, draft the best values, and navigate smartly. That's exactly what I expect Schoen to do.
I agree on all that. Still ,none of it means we have a competent center this year. We may not. You also assume they planned on not having feliciano. I'm not as sure as you are that's the case. That doesn't measn i regret the loss, or that I wanted him, I'm just not as sure as you are the PLAN was for him to be gone. I don't think it was. You point out the issues with the draft. I agree. Therefore, I don't think the plan was to have a hole at center. or just simply pray someone develops. Again, been there, done that, and seen it not work out.
It's Thomas and question marks. Some of the question marks have some upside, but there's really no proven league average starters on that line other than Thomas.
I don't think losing Feliciano and Gates is really the end of the world, but this was a bad unit last year, and we're losing two guys that our coaching staff determined were good enough to get playing time.
Apparently Ed Valentine at BBV has the same observations I do
"Monday’s surprising news that 2022 starting center Jon Feliciano is bolting the Giants for the San Francisco 49ers means that the Giants have now lost both potential starting centers — Feliciano and Nick Gates — in free agency.
They have not added any offensive line help.
The Giants were 24th in both run- and pass-blocking per Football Outsiders DVOA last season. Pro Football Focus ranked the Giants’ 14th in run-blocking and 24th in pass-blocking.
You would think the Giants, with a massive investment in quarterback Daniel Jones, a star running back in Saquon Barkley and a need to get more explosive plays from an offensive that might have been called ‘plodding’ at times last season, would be aggressively seeking upgrades to the interior of the offensive line.
Thus far, that has not been the case."- Ed Valentine
Not a huge loss but this tells me we're most likely going center in the 1st or 2nd round. Also, why is everyone so high on Ezeudu? I see him penciled in as the LG on a lot of these posts. I didn't see much that popped when he played last year. And he got beat out by Lemieux, Bredeson and a 1 legged Gates.
Remember, injuries played a pretty big part in that. They certainly drafted him believing he was starting material. Now we'll see.
I will never understand how some people make definitive judgments on rookies, especially those who dealt with injuries.
RE: So you're saying we need someone tough smart & dependable
It's Thomas and question marks. Some of the question marks have some upside, but there's really no proven league average starters on that line other than Thomas.
I don't think losing Feliciano and Gates is really the end of the world, but this was a bad unit last year, and we're losing two guys that our coaching staff determined were good enough to get playing time.
This is horseshit. Feliciano was trash. If he wasn't he'd still be a Giant.
so if he was ok with letting him walk, seems like the rest of us could stand to defer to him on this.
Totally agree, but deferring to the Giants GM and coaches doesn't work well for a lot of people around here (especially after the decade of clowns "leading" the Giants (into a horrible smelly pit)).
I'm pretty sure that Justin Pugh can easily be converted to center and never forget; Once a Giant - Always a Giant
Re. "Once a Giant - Always a Giant", can't there be exceptions? Especially for a guy who's an eagle fan?
and could he even reach Jones' hands with the ball if he's under Center?? but seriously, PUGH SUCKS! ANd he's a jerk. Why do so many want to bring back players who contributed to the shit show this team became?
You have to think they have a couple of guys they like in the draft and a viable option currently on the roster ( Brederson or Ezudu ).
Gates and Feliciano were average. I would have liked for one of them to be retained but its a position that needed an upgrade. I expect a Center by the end of day 2 to be drafted.
It's Thomas and question marks. Some of the question marks have some upside, but there's really no proven league average starters on that line other than Thomas.
could be the name of a '50s or 60s band, "Thomas and the Question Marks!"
But at some point you have to trust your drafts. We drafted Neal #7 last year and Ezeudu in the 3rd round. Those guys need the opportunity to play.
Glowinski isn't a stud, but he's an average RG. We have some internal options at C but we also have the draft and the rest of FA to add something to the unit.
Our OL looks infinitely better if Neal lives up to his draft status.
3rd rd is usually where you would draft a starting caliber guard who needs a little seasoning. Neal was drafted at 7. If these two guys become the goods, the line will be fine. If not, they will not be competitive on offense this year. Brederson is likely "adequate" at center and they will add competition. But those two are where the big upgrades for the line will come this year. That's on the coaches to get it out of them.
But at some point you have to trust your drafts. We drafted Neal #7 last year and Ezeudu in the 3rd round. Those guys need the opportunity to play.
Glowinski isn't a stud, but he's an average RG. We have some internal options at C but we also have the draft and the rest of FA to add something to the unit.
Our OL looks infinitely better if Neal lives up to his draft status.
Agree.
So much pearl-clutching from the “sky is falling crowd” on this thread. Not happy with losing both starter and backup C from last year, but neither was a stud and … it’s March. Can we at least wait until September before declaring this a bottom-five OL?
You guys need to ease up on the speculation.
That's interesting. I seem to remember he put in the media last offseason adamantly that he wanted to play center. I wonder what changed.
Two teams have basically said no thanks in the part two years to him. His range doesn’t mean anything when he is beat at the LOS on passing plays.
I also don't think the Giants allowing Feliciano to leave says anything about how they feel about Lemieux. He's been injured a lot.
Good luck to Feliciano.
Feliciano played a lot better than Glowinski, and he cost a hell of a lot less, and he can play center.
This was a big loss, especially considering that Schoen has ignored OL in free agency so far.
Quote:
don't see Feliciano or Gates as big losses frankly. Thomas and Neal are the only irreplaceable OL right now. Everyone else is a journeyman or unproven.
I also don't think the Giants allowing Feliciano to leave says anything about how they feel about Lemieux. He's been injured a lot.
Good luck to Feliciano.
Feliciano played a lot better than Glowinski, and he cost a hell of a lot less, and he can play center.
This was a big loss, especially considering that Schoen has ignored OL in free agency so far.
Take deep breath. Feliciano is not a good center, he’s barely average. Did it ever occur to you who Glowinski was bookended by? Hint: not good, and worse.
We'll see how things unravel.
Or did they just assume they were going to be able to get him at numbers they dictated, and it didn't happen. I doubt the plan was to have no center AFTER they spent what they in an FA thus forcing a pick in the drat.
Unless the plan is to throw Bredeson or some other random scrub out there at center. Sure feels like we've seen this play before. If no decent pick for a center is there when the giants are picking, and other positions of real value and need ar on the board when our picks come up, tell, then exactly how this is any different from Gettleman's tenure?
PS-Sure seems they are building the core of this team around what DG brought in, so far. And no, I'm not a gelleman apologist, just making note of what I'm observing.
We'll see how things unravel.
They may indeed unravel.....
Rookie also
If youngsters step up and improve IOL of ezuedu,BB, SL, glow and mckethen may be workable
And of course once of our top two picks could be IOL. Heck it may be two picks over first 5 rds
Quote:
Center now comes a need, and starting a Rookie next to Ezedu is going to be tough. Especially against the cowboys and eagles who run a lot of stunts.
Feliciano was not perfect by any means, but he knew the system, made the right calls at the LOS and held down the fort.
Jones will now have a new Center AGAIN UGH
If he was so important, why didn't the FO offer him more competitive money. I don't think the FO or Daboll valued him as much as you seem to.
Or maybe the Giants simply decided to move on. Although he's far from the worst center in the League, I don't expect he'll be a big loss. (I know - be careful what you wish for.)
Try a different approach than just reinventing average or below average OL to become inexperienced starters Centers.
Evaluate the position in the draft and make a real investment.
Quote:
Maybe it came down to him wanting to return to the Bay area. He's originally from New York, but his family moved to Florida a long time ago. I guess he'll play guard, with Brendel remaining at center.
Or maybe the Giants simply decided to move on. Although he's far from the worst center in the League, I don't expect he'll be a big loss. (I know - be careful what you wish for.)
Or maybe they miscalculated and assumed he wouldn't get offered better than what they put up, or assumed he would just accept it. They've done nothing for the O-line so far in FA. Shades of Gettleman.
"Shades of Gettleman?" Does Nate Solder ring a bell? Patrick Omameh? Maybe Schoen looked at the players under contract and concluded that there weren't any UFA's that were significantly better than what they had now, and weren't worth signing. Maybe he decided to wait until the draft to address the OC position, not necessarily in the first round, but before Day 2 is out. I don't know, but it seems to me he's nothing like Gettleman.
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[quote] In comment 16071043 Big Blue Blogger said:
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Maybe it came down to him wanting to return to the Bay area. He's originally from New York, but his family moved to Florida a long time ago. I guess he'll play guard, with Brendel remaining at center.
Or maybe the Giants simply decided to move on. Although he's far from the worst center in the League, I don't expect he'll be a big loss. (I know - be careful what you wish for.)
Or maybe they miscalculated and assumed he wouldn't get offered better than what they put up, or assumed he would just accept it. They've done nothing for the O-line so far in FA. Shades of Gettleman. [/quote
Curious, why are you discounting resources spent on the O line last season; they a none factor?
The draft coming and maybe a second wave of FA. There is also the possibility they already have a plan in place with the current roster.
Given the past year and a half and the track record of Schoen and Dabol during that time frame your take seems unduly harsh and overstated
LOL dinger!
This. He basically hasn’t played in 2 years.
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Are people really still thinking Lemieux is going to contribute to this team in any capacity?
This. He basically hasn’t played in 2 years.
agree. and he stank when he did play. a turnstile.
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In comment 16071043 Big Blue Blogger said:
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Maybe it came down to him wanting to return to the Bay area. He's originally from New York, but his family moved to Florida a long time ago. I guess he'll play guard, with Brendel remaining at center.
Or maybe the Giants simply decided to move on. Although he's far from the worst center in the League, I don't expect he'll be a big loss. (I know - be careful what you wish for.)
Or maybe they miscalculated and assumed he wouldn't get offered better than what they put up, or assumed he would just accept it. They've done nothing for the O-line so far in FA. Shades of Gettleman.
"Shades of Gettleman?" Does Nate Solder ring a bell? Patrick Omameh? Maybe Schoen looked at the players under contract and concluded that there weren't any UFA's that were significantly better than what they had now, and weren't worth signing. Maybe he decided to wait until the draft to address the OC position, not necessarily in the first round, but before Day 2 is out. I don't know, but it seems to me he's nothing like Gettleman.
So you pass on best player available , possibly at a position of need, but best player available at any rate to take a center? Or you wind up without a viable replacement center through the draft because it worked out that value at other positions available when our pick comes up is too good to pass up? You may not be able to have it both ways.
[quote] In comment 16071043 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
Maybe it came down to him wanting to return to the Bay area. He's originally from New York, but his family moved to Florida a long time ago. I guess he'll play guard, with Brendel remaining at center.
Or maybe the Giants simply decided to move on. Although he's far from the worst center in the League, I don't expect he'll be a big loss. (I know - be careful what you wish for.)
Or maybe they miscalculated and assumed he wouldn't get offered better than what they put up, or assumed he would just accept it. They've done nothing for the O-line so far in FA. Shades of Gettleman. [/quote
Curious, why are you discounting resources spent on the O line last season; they a none factor?
The draft coming and maybe a second wave of FA. There is also the possibility they already have a plan in place with the current roster.
Given the past year and a half and the track record of Schoen and Dabol during that time frame your take seems unduly harsh and overstated
How so?
Why is that so unlikely?
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on them to hit in the draft. Not only that, but there needs to be a big improvement in Neal's game.
So you pass on best player available , possibly at a position of need, but best player available at any rate to take a center? Or you wind up without a viable replacement center through the draft because it worked out that value at other positions available when our pick comes up is too good to pass up? You may not be able to have it both ways.
I definitely understand your 'Shadesof Gettleman' comment, as fans we could all see the tragedy slowly unfolding while DG watched it burn. BUT I think this FO and Coaching staff have shown to choose more coachable players and the ability to get more out of them. SOOOO I think even if they did pass on IOL in the top 3 rounds, they obviously feel that what they have now is equal to what they had when JF and NG were here. Perhaps their worst case scenario is picking a couple of players on day 2 and 3 while also looking for talent come summer time. While we as fans have seen that as a disaster in the recent past, perhaps this FO/Staff have more confidence that this is how they want to allocate dollars and build the roster. Not saying itll work but I have more confidence in them coming closer to this plan working than the last couple of staffs.
Or maybe the Giants simply decided to move on. Although he's far from the worst center in the League, I don't expect he'll be a big loss. (I know - be careful what you wish for.)
Or maybe they miscalculated and assumed he wouldn't get offered better than what they put up, or assumed he would just accept it. They've done nothing for the O-line so far in FA. Shades of Gettleman.
"Shades of Gettleman?" Does Nate Solder ring a bell? Patrick Omameh? Maybe Schoen looked at the players under contract and concluded that there weren't any UFA's that were significantly better than what they had now, and weren't worth signing. Maybe he decided to wait until the draft to address the OC position, not necessarily in the first round, but before Day 2 is out. I don't know, but it seems to me he's nothing like Gettleman.
NOT signing a FA to the OL, and THEN choosing a different position player during the draft because the value was simply too good to pass up in managements opinion is very much what happened under gettleman. He said so himself when asked why. You Can't see Schoen passing up on a the best available center because some player expected to be gone in the top 12 , at a position of need for us, no less, is still there at 25? You can't see that happening in the second round as well? I can. That's EXACTLY what happens when you draft " best player available". Certainly don't see how someone saying " shades" is a strecth. You act like I said he was a clone.
What kind of babbling illogic is this?
Gettleman was notoriously (and ridiculously) imprudent when it came to free agency, which is something Schoen decidedly is not. Why you felt the need to even mention the former GM is beyond me.
Schoen has options, and a competent coaching staff whose input he no doubt values (Bobby Johnson, in this instance). Clearly, he considered Feliciano (and Gates) as marginal talents not worth what it would cost to re-sign them, nor would it make sense to spend money on another free agent who wouldn't provide any more of an upgrade than they could already get with Ben Bredeson, who's already under contract.
As for the draft, yes, everyone loves to talk about BPA, but it's almost always balanced with need, which is why most are talking about the Giants drafting CB's and WR's early on. The needs are obvious. The best GM's are the ones who can strike the best balances, draft the best values, and navigate smartly. That's exactly what I expect Schoen to do.
[quote] In comment 16071043 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
Maybe it came down to him wanting to return to the Bay area. He's originally from New York, but his family moved to Florida a long time ago. I guess he'll play guard, with Brendel remaining at center.
Or maybe the Giants simply decided to move on. Although he's far from the worst center in the League, I don't expect he'll be a big loss. (I know - be careful what you wish for.)
Or maybe they miscalculated and assumed he wouldn't get offered better than what they put up, or assumed he would just accept it. They've done nothing for the O-line so far in FA. Shades of Gettleman. [/quote
Curious, why are you discounting resources spent on the O line last season; they a none factor?
it;s funny how, if you like a GM, you can provide the excuse that injuries put him on the horns of a dilemna, but if you don't like him, then no excuse is acceptable.
We picks this guy schitt of schmitt or whatever his name is at 25 that Sy doesn't like because he has no sand in his pants and he doesn't pan out, isn't that the same thihing gettleman did? If he passes on him and takes someone of better value, and we are left with an unsatisfactory stopgap playing center this year and jones winds up on his backk agasin because the oline sucks, isn't that the same shit gettleman did?
Gettleman sucks ass, worst GM ever, yet it sure seems Schoen is building the core of this team around his picks.
Don't get me wrong, Gettleman absolutely fucked us royally in his last year here, and with Solder as well, but remember, everyone here was in on that signing at the time.
after year 1 everyone and his brother loved gettleman and wer singing Joe judges paraises, or do you forget?
Maybe my point isn't Gettleman was a good GM ( he wasn't). Or that Schoen is a bad one ( I like Schoen very much.) Maybe it's that the fans here are very subjective and fickle hypocrites with selective memories.
We could very well wind up with no viable center at this point. Injuries and lack of options during the draft did a lot, a lot, to screw us on the o line over the last decade.
Schoen could get lucky and he's a Genius, or he could get unlucky and get run out of town in a couple of years, and if he does, you can be sure Giants fans and BBI will find a way to villainize him on his way out the door. It's how we roll.
TLDR:We needed an upgrade from Feliciano, I didn't care for him. There now may not be better options avaible in FA that we can afford, and the value may not be there at Center when we pick in the draft. and none of it may have a damn thing to do with any plan of Schoen's.
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In comment 16071178 barens said:
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on them to hit in the draft. Not only that, but there needs to be a big improvement in Neal's game.
So you pass on best player available , possibly at a position of need, but best player available at any rate to take a center? Or you wind up without a viable replacement center through the draft because it worked out that value at other positions available when our pick comes up is too good to pass up? You may not be able to have it both ways.
I definitely understand your 'Shadesof Gettleman' comment, as fans we could all see the tragedy slowly unfolding while DG watched it burn. BUT I think this FO and Coaching staff have shown to choose more coachable players and the ability to get more out of them. SOOOO I think even if they did pass on IOL in the top 3 rounds, they obviously feel that what they have now is equal to what they had when JF and NG were here. Perhaps their worst case scenario is picking a couple of players on day 2 and 3 while also looking for talent come summer time. While we as fans have seen that as a disaster in the recent past, perhaps this FO/Staff have more confidence that this is how they want to allocate dollars and build the roster. Not saying itll work but I have more confidence in them coming closer to this plan working than the last couple of staffs.
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Or maybe the Giants simply decided to move on. Although he's far from the worst center in the League, I don't expect he'll be a big loss. (I know - be careful what you wish for.)
Or maybe they miscalculated and assumed he wouldn't get offered better than what they put up, or assumed he would just accept it. They've done nothing for the O-line so far in FA. Shades of Gettleman.
"Shades of Gettleman?" Does Nate Solder ring a bell? Patrick Omameh? Maybe Schoen looked at the players under contract and concluded that there weren't any UFA's that were significantly better than what they had now, and weren't worth signing. Maybe he decided to wait until the draft to address the OC position, not necessarily in the first round, but before Day 2 is out. I don't know, but it seems to me he's nothing like Gettleman.
NOT signing a FA to the OL, and THEN choosing a different position player during the draft because the value was simply too good to pass up in managements opinion is very much what happened under gettleman. He said so himself when asked why. You Can't see Schoen passing up on a the best available center because some player expected to be gone in the top 12 , at a position of need for us, no less, is still there at 25? You can't see that happening in the second round as well? I can. That's EXACTLY what happens when you draft " best player available". Certainly don't see how someone saying " shades" is a strecth. You act like I said he was a clone.
What kind of babbling illogic is this?
Gettleman was notoriously (and ridiculously) imprudent when it came to free agency, which is something Schoen decidedly is not. Why you felt the need to even mention the former GM is beyond me.
Schoen has options, and a competent coaching staff whose input he no doubt values (Bobby Johnson, in this instance). Clearly, he considered Feliciano (and Gates) as marginal talents not worth what it would cost to re-sign them, nor would it make sense to spend money on another free agent who wouldn't provide any more of an upgrade than they could already get with Ben Bredeson, who's already under contract.
As for the draft, yes, everyone loves to talk about BPA, but it's almost always balanced with need, which is why most are talking about the Giants drafting CB's and WR's early on. The needs are obvious. The best GM's are the ones who can strike the best balances, draft the best values, and navigate smartly. That's exactly what I expect Schoen to do.
I don't think losing Feliciano and Gates is really the end of the world, but this was a bad unit last year, and we're losing two guys that our coaching staff determined were good enough to get playing time.
They have not added any offensive line help.
The Giants were 24th in both run- and pass-blocking per Football Outsiders DVOA last season. Pro Football Focus ranked the Giants’ 14th in run-blocking and 24th in pass-blocking.
You would think the Giants, with a massive investment in quarterback Daniel Jones, a star running back in Saquon Barkley and a need to get more explosive plays from an offensive that might have been called ‘plodding’ at times last season, would be aggressively seeking upgrades to the interior of the offensive line.
Thus far, that has not been the case."- Ed Valentine
https://www.bigblueview.com/2023/3/21/23648517/whats-the-plan-for-the-giants-offensive-line-nick-gates-jon-feliciano-nfl-free-agency-draft-2023
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Not a huge loss but this tells me we're most likely going center in the 1st or 2nd round. Also, why is everyone so high on Ezeudu? I see him penciled in as the LG on a lot of these posts. I didn't see much that popped when he played last year. And he got beat out by Lemieux, Bredeson and a 1 legged Gates.
Remember, injuries played a pretty big part in that. They certainly drafted him believing he was starting material. Now we'll see.
I will never understand how some people make definitive judgments on rookies, especially those who dealt with injuries.
I'm pretty sure that Justin Pugh can easily be converted to center and never forget; Once a Giant - Always a Giant
Re. "Once a Giant - Always a Giant", can't there be exceptions? Especially for a guy who's an eagle fan?
I don't think losing Feliciano and Gates is really the end of the world, but this was a bad unit last year, and we're losing two guys that our coaching staff determined were good enough to get playing time.
This is horseshit. Feliciano was trash. If he wasn't he'd still be a Giant.
You would've kept Feliciano bc of his leadership qualities? Glad you're not our GM.
I think there's plenty of leadership left in our locker room.
I'm fine with this, but not bc of that lame penalty call.
Totally agree, but deferring to the Giants GM and coaches doesn't work well for a lot of people around here (especially after the decade of clowns "leading" the Giants (into a horrible smelly pit)).
Alliteration happy?
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I'm pretty sure that Justin Pugh can easily be converted to center and never forget; Once a Giant - Always a Giant
Re. "Once a Giant - Always a Giant", can't there be exceptions? Especially for a guy who's an eagle fan?
and could he even reach Jones' hands with the ball if he's under Center?? but seriously, PUGH SUCKS! ANd he's a jerk. Why do so many want to bring back players who contributed to the shit show this team became?
More free agents available.
You have to think they have a couple of guys they like in the draft and a viable option currently on the roster ( Brederson or Ezudu ).
Gates and Feliciano were average. I would have liked for one of them to be retained but its a position that needed an upgrade. I expect a Center by the end of day 2 to be drafted.
could be the name of a '50s or 60s band, "Thomas and the Question Marks!"
Glowinski isn't a stud, but he's an average RG. We have some internal options at C but we also have the draft and the rest of FA to add something to the unit.
Our OL looks infinitely better if Neal lives up to his draft status.
Glowinski isn't a stud, but he's an average RG. We have some internal options at C but we also have the draft and the rest of FA to add something to the unit.
Our OL looks infinitely better if Neal lives up to his draft status.
Agree.
So much pearl-clutching from the “sky is falling crowd” on this thread. Not happy with losing both starter and backup C from last year, but neither was a stud and … it’s March. Can we at least wait until September before declaring this a bottom-five OL?