Do you think that Campbell, Slayton and Hodgins as our 1,2 and 3 receivers are a good enough starting receiving crew to go into this season with? I’d
say yes when taking Waller into consideration and assuming Bellinger being better in year 2. Sequan out of the backfield and Jones as a passing and running threat adds up to the team having enough speed at the skill positions to spread out defenses and cause trouble. Ideally, finding a stud #1 would be optimal. I just don’t know where to find him.
Although, I find Xavier Smith interesting.
I think the draft will be about interior offensive lineman and new defensive backfield help. After losing Feliciano it’s almost a slam dunk we are taking the best available center in the first or second.
But does the speed alone of Parris, Darius and Isiah for now make our
front line receivers enough going into this season?
Slayton
Hodgins
Campbell
is probably the worst WR corps in the league.
Add in Robinson when he gets back and Shepard as the #4 on the depth chart, still probably the worst if we're all being honest - or if not the worst it's not far from the bottom.
but...can you win with that group? Sure, the Giants did last year and as you mentioned in the OP, add in Waller/Bellinger, Saquon and Breida plus Jones and there are some weapons in the offense and that WR group (if healthy) is probably better than last year.
I don't expect the WR group is a finished product for the 2023 season yet though.
I wouldn't force it.
Depending on what tier they have the receivers that make it to 25 you are right. The CB and Edge class are so loaded this year. Its one thing if they take a WR that is in the highest tier remaining (even though he might not be the highest graded player in that tier). Its another thing if they drop a tier or two lower and 'reach' for one, surpassing much higher graded talent at the CB or Edge spot.
Here's a fair example of tier grading by the 33rd team. I don't agree with a lot of their grades specifically (about 3 too many WRs in the 6.7-7.0 tier) but it shows kind of a simplistic view of what it is.
33rd team Tiered Draft board - ( New Window )
Waller is most definitely a big add and they probably still have high hopes for their 2nd overall pick in last years draft too. Though returning from an ACL a player usually doesn't have full explosion until 2 seasons later.
Still sorely need a guy to have under contract for the next 4 to 5 years since the draft isn't only about next year obviously and most our receivers contracts are up after 2023.
Giants will most certainly drsft ankther young receicer doesnt have to be at 25 but i expect them to bring at least 1 rookie in.
Slayton
Hodgins
Campbell
is probably the worst WR corps in the league.
Add in Robinson when he gets back and Shepard as the #4 on the depth chart, still probably the worst if we're all being honest - or if not the worst it's not far from the bottom.
but...can you win with that group? Sure, the Giants did last year and as you mentioned in the OP, add in Waller/Bellinger, Saquon and Breida plus Jones and there are some weapons in the offense and that WR group (if healthy) is probably better than last year.
I don't expect the WR group is a finished product for the 2023 season yet though.
I agree but we have to look at it as the overall receving group which includes Waller and Bellinger. In that context it is a definite improvement over last year and probably puts us roughly in the late teens to early 20's vs. bottom 3 to 5 last year.
Still not really anywhere near most playoff teams or even any team in our own division but with our dynamic run game mixed in the offense could still be pretty good if guys actually stay healthy.
Would love to add at least one of a vet that we trade for like Hopkins/Jeudy or a 1st or 2nd round pick in this years draft.
Also, no other team that's good has bad WR's. You can cite the chiefs, but they are clearly the anomoly. I can't remember any teams in the recent past that has been good with worse WR's than what the Giants have.
The one caveat however, is that the Giants have some young guys who can get better. They will need to get a lot better because we are definitely one of the worst receiving groups in football.
Our staff is smart and will run the offense around the personnel that we have. It will prevent us from being much more than we were last year.
Also, no other team that's good has bad WR's. You can cite the chiefs, but they are clearly the anomoly. I can't remember any teams in the recent past that has been good with worse WR's than what the Giants have.
The one caveat however, is that the Giants have some young guys who can get better. They will need to get a lot better because we are definitely one of the worst receiving groups in football.
Agreed Kmed. Also not that Daboll/Kafka are bad but they have Reid who may be the top offensive mastermind in the game.
I would find it hard to believe they don't improve it further this offseason with a high pick or trade.
1)
Last year -- Engram out and he needed to go, promising rookie Bellinger added
This year -- Waller in and even if he gives us only 9 games -- he looks like a better more accomplished weapon. Belly has a year under his belt and is on the rise.
2)
Last year -- no #1 receiver -- Shep was the best of the lot with a lot of question marks and a reduced salary -- behind him were Slayton, and the speedy little rookie Wan Dale and a bunch of UDFAs that were perennial teases
This year -- no clear #1 receiver -- Hodgins, who became a weapon mid-season, returns, speedy Parris Campbell added, who appears to be on the rise and a scheme fit, Slayton and Shep return and a bunch of UDFAs that are still perennial teases -- and there is WanDale who was flashing before he went down -- who may or may not return
[c]Waller, Slayton, and Campbell, speed and burst wise, were all in the top 5 in the NFL in one of either speed, burst, or explosiveness last year - so there is a new dimension added to the receiver core that wasn't there last year
3)In my view even if no WRs are added the WR corps at least starts out better -- but with 10 picks int he draft we may yet see another addition
Its not a good group, but its not a brutally bad group like it was last year.
The obvious plan was using speed to open the field , pose a deep threat and keeping the Ds, especially LBs and S from cheating and playing down low, and giving RBs opportunities to pick up more yardage when popping the LOS or on swing passes and screens, and let DJ stay in the pocket more with receivers that can get open quickly ,while building an OL Ds really need to respect.
That said, they will draft their #1, or #2 this draft, as the off-season receivers signed are 1-2 year rentals while they build a strong young contender.
One thing I don't like is to hold injuries against a player. It's part of the game and most of the time I think fans put the "soft" labels on guys for legitimate injuries and it's unwarranted.
But let's see how this room shakes out by week 1. Personally, I wouldn't shy away from adding to the room. I don't think the Giants are a lot better than last year at the position. I still see a lot of hope so's and if's.
I think JSN and Jalin Hyatt are both going to be outstanding in the NFL. I wouldn't hesitate to use #25 on either of them.
As for the Chiefs, they had more talent at WR than some want to recognize.
There top two receivers, JJSS and MVS, both would've been our best receiver last year. Juju has a 1400 yard season on his ledger and two others where he was a smidge under a thousand. He has seasons of 7,7, and 9 TDs.
MVS may not be an elite talent, but he's a respected downfield threat.
Finally, while there may be some objection to this, but whatever you want to say about Toney, and there's plenty of fair criticism, but he's an elite talent in terms of when he is in between the lines with the ball in his hands. The Giants have no one like that anymore. Maybe Wan'Dale if he can stay on the field.
If the Chiefs sucked so much at receiver last year, why did Skyy Moore, a 2nd round pick with significant talent, barely see the field? They could afford to redshirt him. If Skyy Moore was on the Giants last year? Shiiiiiiiit...he probably would've been the #1 receiver on this team.
The Giants need to get some talent out of this draft. Without adding a free agent, I would still target two guys if the value was there.
The WR Corps is weird, because there’s a lot of depth but no real #1 to scare defenses. I don’t really know how they’re going to keep them all, but maybe it makes sense because Robinson and Shep might not be ready week 1. Adding a free agent like obj doesn’t’ get them the #1 they need. If available, I think they need to use the 1st round pick on a #1 WR.
Parris definitely has the skill set to be a #1. He’s dealt with injuries and poor QB play his entire tenure in Indy, if he can stay healthy, he’ll be a real weapon.
Value might match up best in round 2 as round 1 @25 there is a good chance a CB or Edge will be clear BPA and on a higher tier than the WR just due to how stacked those 2 positions are this year with top notch talent.
Round 2 will have guys like Tyler Scott (my favorite), Tillman, Jayden Reed, AT Perry, Josh Downs (if he drops), Michael Wilson etc.
If he stays healthy and with a better system and better QB he might approach it. A lot of ifs but possible.
Value might match up best in round 2 as round 1 @25 there is a good chance a CB or Edge will be clear BPA and on a higher tier than the WR just due to how stacked those 2 positions are this year with top notch talent.
Round 2 will have guys like Tyler Scott (my favorite), Tillman, Jayden Reed, AT Perry, Josh Downs (if he drops), Michael Wilson etc.
That's a fair point about the WR's under contract, however some could also be re-signed if they stay healthy and are productive. A year ago, who would've thought the Giants would be re-signing Slayton (not to mention Shepard)?
Ry I am 100% with you in wanting a more proven WR1 . No doubt. However Parris issue has not been talent it's been health. Last year was his first full season but in a terrible situation. This is the kind of receiver Daboll knows how to use. Im not predicting 1200 yds for him or anything like that but he does have some upside if he can stay healthy or having an 800-900 yd season and being a strong complement to Waller, Slayton and Hodgins. Again that is probably ceiling with the floor him being out most of the year with another injury lol. I agree he is likely not a high level WR1 but he does have a pretty strong WR2 ceiling of things fall into place for him.
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This almost guarantees a WR to be taken in the top 3 rounds and likely in the 1st two. They are going to want an additional guy (besides just W-Rob) who is cost controlled with high upside for the next 4-5 years.
Value might match up best in round 2 as round 1 @25 there is a good chance a CB or Edge will be clear BPA and on a higher tier than the WR just due to how stacked those 2 positions are this year with top notch talent.
Round 2 will have guys like Tyler Scott (my favorite), Tillman, Jayden Reed, AT Perry, Josh Downs (if he drops), Michael Wilson etc.
That's a fair point about the WR's under contract, however some could also be re-signed if they stay healthy and are productive. A year ago, who would've thought the Giants would be re-signing Slayton (not to mention Shepard)?
Absolutely but aside from maybe Hodgins or the injury prone (at least until this point) Cambpell no one might be worth re-signing. I think they'll really want to add a guy high that they think has WR1 potential that will be cost controlled for the next 4-5 years.
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Darius Slayton is more like a 3rd or 4th receiver, and he has had a significantly better career than Parris Campbell.
Ry I am 100% with you in wanting a more proven WR1 . No doubt. However Parris issue has not been talent it's been health. Last year was his first full season but in a terrible situation. This is the kind of receiver Daboll knows how to use. Im not predicting 1200 yds for him or anything like that but he does have some upside if he can stay healthy or having an 800-900 yd season and being a strong complement to Waller, Slayton and Hodgins. Again that is probably ceiling with the floor him being out most of the year with another injury lol. I agree he is likely not a high level WR1 but he does have a pretty strong WR2 ceiling of things fall into place for him.
The more I watch Campbell, the more I like him. To me, at worst he is an upgrade over Richie James. He may not be a #1 (there's an ever shrinking list of guys I'd consider true 1s anyway). I think he can absolutely push any of the current WRs for targets from Jones(Hodgins and Slayton). Campbell can play...just has to avoid the injury bug(like the rest of the team for the past 5 years)
One can make an arguement the talent is better than KC...but nearly all have injury concerns.
Staying healthy and OL development is a key.
Now, the best teams usually plan ahead.....and these WRs are on 1 year contracts and Barkley...so WR and RB better still be on the table in the draft.
The Giants have 10 picks.....but many are in the 6th and 7th RD.....Schoen did well last year....finding talent deep into draft....
I also hope they extend big DeX, Thomas and Williams as prices seem to favors teams this year....granted Agents know it.
All for clustering wr and cb rds 5-7. Take a shot at developing guys with some traits
He is a JAG fellas. BBI over here with some saying he has #1 upside.
Slayton isn’t a 1 and he has had a significantly better career.
Giants still have a below average WR group. I fully expect 25 to be a WR if we don’t make a trade. JS added some low end depth pieces to fill out depth chart and to also make people think we could go a diff direction at 25. I fully expect a WR to be called at 25 as long as value matches up (flowers, Addison, Johnston, jsn)
I think we have some young guys that could progress as #2's, but as of now none of them are.
In this system with a much better QB if he stays healthy no reason to think he can't eclipse 700-800 yds. Will it happen, who knows ? but it certainly is a possibility. He is talented. Probably not quite a high level WR1 but a good fit here.
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In comment 16071565 ryanmkeane said:
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Darius Slayton is more like a 3rd or 4th receiver, and he has had a significantly better career than Parris Campbell.
Ry I am 100% with you in wanting a more proven WR1 . No doubt. However Parris issue has not been talent it's been health. Last year was his first full season but in a terrible situation. This is the kind of receiver Daboll knows how to use. Im not predicting 1200 yds for him or anything like that but he does have some upside if he can stay healthy or having an 800-900 yd season and being a strong complement to Waller, Slayton and Hodgins. Again that is probably ceiling with the floor him being out most of the year with another injury lol. I agree he is likely not a high level WR1 but he does have a pretty strong WR2 ceiling of things fall into place for him.
The more I watch Campbell, the more I like him. To me, at worst he is an upgrade over Richie James. He may not be a #1 (there's an ever shrinking list of guys I'd consider true 1s anyway). I think he can absolutely push any of the current WRs for targets from Jones(Hodgins and Slayton). Campbell can play...just has to avoid the injury bug(like the rest of the team for the past 5 years)
Absolutely. And Wan'Dale and Shep coming off ACLs may not have their full explosion quite yet even if they can play.
This is not a disastrous unit anymore but it still needs help. That holds even more true longterm as the only WR we have committed to beyond 2024 is Wan'Dale. The biggest thing the WR/TE UFA moves accomplished was to remove the desperate urgency at the position, that doesn't change it from being one of our biggest needs though.
And suddenly our savior. Guys a 3 at best
But in general a good lunch pail group is ok with me. Slayton, Barkley,Waller,Bellinger all can make chunk yd plays. Maybe we get to add Robinson the list.
Anyway, the Giants have a lot of guys who have gotten injured a lot, and you hope a couple of them stay healthy, but who really is the guy that scares a defensive coordinator? Who is the guy that you need to account for deep, and probably need to give a corner safety help for?
Because if you think that's Slayton...just being fast doesn't do it. IMO someone needs to emerge/improve, and absent of that, we still need a guy. Love Waller, but again, he'll be 31 and has missed a lot of games last couple of seasons. need a real #1 at WR.
Hodgins is a nice story but he’s a 3 at best. Slayton is a great 3 or 4 and below average 1 or 2. Shepherd was probably signed as a courtesy. Robinson tore his ACL if he comes back he will be limited next year. Collin Johnson looked ok last summer but is he a Good Wr? He’s got 29 receptions and was a 5th rounder.
I do like the gamble on Waller but we’ve been down the road before of gambling on a big time TE and it hasn’t worked. Maybe the 3rd times the charm. I hope so.
The Giants better come out of the draft with 2 Wr prospects at least. 1 on the 1st 3 rounds and 1 later. It’s a bad group.
Hey, thats HUUUGE for a guy like me. Also compared to Wandale and SS thats ginormous. And don't sell him short; He's six ONE on BBI's Roster page;)
BB- he's not our saviour but an upgrade to a pool of middling receivers; I'm not kidding myself. If they gradually increase the talent levels at each group I think that may work better financially instead of going all in and grabbing the costliest talent and having that one pick up not pan out(see Golladay, Solder etc)
He is a JAG fellas. BBI over here with some saying he has #1 upside.
Slayton isn’t a 1 and he has had a significantly better career.
Giants still have a below average WR group. I fully expect 25 to be a WR if we don’t make a trade. JS added some low end depth pieces to fill out depth chart and to also make people think we could go a diff direction at 25. I fully expect a WR to be called at 25 as long as value matches up (flowers, Addison, Johnston, jsn)
So glad you have zero to do with any player evaluations.
Is he in the category Jefferson,chase, and whatever other top wr no of course not they can go to any team and make them better. But that’s not the case here, his skill set are what daboll and Kafka wants and needs for this offense. If he stays healthy he could put up numbers that aren’t far off from the top guys.
Do we still need a 1? I believe so. His floor is a solid 2 to say he’s a 3-6 at best is laughable at best
Health and many aren't signed beyond 2023. We are almost definitely going top 2 rounds for a WR.
Anyway, the Giants have a lot of guys who have gotten injured a lot, and you hope a couple of them stay healthy, but who really is the guy that scares a defensive coordinator? Who is the guy that you need to account for deep, and probably need to give a corner safety help for?
Because if you think that's Slayton...just being fast doesn't do it. IMO someone needs to emerge/improve, and absent of that, we still need a guy. Love Waller, but again, he'll be 31 and has missed a lot of games last couple of seasons. need a real #1 at WR.
Jim, thanks for the lesson on “corps”, clears that one up for me.
Here’s another for you, wondering if it’s a regional thing: Which is the more grammatically correct word to follow “try”? Is it Try and fix the OL? Or Try to fix the OL? Thanks in advance.
Without any money to bring in receivers last year, they implemented an rpo to take some of the attention off Barkley, but without speed outside defenses stacked the box and everything got harder as the season progressed. Seems to me that Campbell and Slayton will stretch and widen the field. Whether or not they become 1s or 2s stats wise, their presence will open things up for the run game and for whoever the underneath receivers will be. And when they do catch the ball, greater likelihood of yards after the catch and big plays. Should be more exciting than 5 yd hooks.
I expect they’ll add a WR day 1 or 2 to mix in behind these three at first, but become a centerpiece later on or next season. Doubt they’ll give up draft capital that can yield cost controlled players for 4-5 years. Just my guess.