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Inside Julian Love decision

mfjmfj : 3/21/2023 7:35 am
Interesting Athletic Article (behind paywall, but Athletic is the best deal going).

Highlights:

1). In season, Love turned down a Giants offer, that was better than what he got from the Seahawks.
2). Love gave Giants opportunity to match, and they did not. Author indicates they did not match because they had already signed Slayton. Don't know if that is speculation or sourced.

Non-Love issue:

Given Tunsil contract, starting price for AT is likely $25/per.

Discusses other issues as well.
Link - ( New Window )
So wanted Love over Slayton  
BillT : 3/21/2023 7:47 am : link
That’s somewhat on Love for rejecting a good offer but I thought Slayton’s offer was more than market.
RE: So wanted Love over Slayton  
robbieballs2003 : 3/21/2023 7:49 am : link
In comment 16071422 BillT said:
Quote:
That’s somewhat on Love for rejecting a good offer but I thought Slayton’s offer was more than market.


You can probably say that about Jones and Barkley too, which may have led to the Giants changing their mind on Love.
Anyone know how Schoen  
Jint Fan in Buc Land : 3/21/2023 7:51 am : link
Feels about allocating $25mm to the DT position? I guess if he’s good with $10-12mm for Barkley positional value means little but I feel like there was a quote at the beginning that qb wr cb were the ones that cost the most
Point #2  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/21/2023 7:59 am : link
doesn't make much sense. Earlier they wanted Love over Slayton but later they didn't? Sounds like speculation.

They either wanted both back or feelings got hurt.
I don’t get this …  
Spider56 : 3/21/2023 7:59 am : link
What would signing Slayton have to do with Love … and if the Giants wanted him at a higher number during the season, why wouldn’t they sign him at a lower number to match? I think they decided Love hit a peak and they could upgrade.
My guess is  
k2tampa : 3/21/2023 8:01 am : link
that they got a really good look at Pinnock when McKinney was out and saw a guy who they think can be/is a bigger, faster, younger, cheaper and more physical version of Love.
RE: Point #2  
robbieballs2003 : 3/21/2023 8:02 am : link
In comment 16071427 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
doesn't make much sense. Earlier they wanted Love over Slayton but later they didn't? Sounds like speculation.

They either wanted both back or feelings got hurt.


Or the Giants spent more tham they thought and had to reevaluate.
I guess Love overvalued  
Big Blue '56 : 3/21/2023 8:02 am : link
himself when he rejected our offer during the season, unless it didn’t matter and he wanted Seattle as it turned out
The Dallas papers  
Y28 : 3/21/2023 8:07 am : link
are reporting that TE Dalton Schultz recently refused a 3 year $36 mil contract from the Cowboys. So Jerry walked away and Schultz got a one year deal with Houston.

The best Schultz can do this season? up to $9 mil if he hits all incentives.

RE: I guess Love overvalued  
k2tampa : 3/21/2023 8:07 am : link
In comment 16071431 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
himself when he rejected our offer during the season, unless it didn’t matter and he wanted Seattle as it turned out


If he wanted Seattle, why would he give the Giants the chance to match?
To be fair the first section of the article also concludes with this  
Tony in Tampa : 3/21/2023 8:23 am : link
"Free agency is a fluid process and timing is paramount. The Giants and Love were interested in an extension, but when the sides weren’t close on a price in negotiations, the team moved forward to address other needs, while Love pursued the best available offer."

Not sure this was just prioritizing Slayton over Love. But as other have said in post yesterday, if the Giants really wanted to keep Love they could have done so.
RE: RE: Point #2  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/21/2023 8:24 am : link
In comment 16071430 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 16071427 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


doesn't make much sense. Earlier they wanted Love over Slayton but later they didn't? Sounds like speculation.

They either wanted both back or feelings got hurt.



Or the Giants spent more tham they thought and had to reevaluate.


Schoen doesn't come across as a fly by the seat of his pants kind of guy.
Yeah sounds speculative.  
Dinger : 3/21/2023 8:27 am : link
Paying Love vs paying Slayton? Two different positions, two different types of players....I think the player and the team overvalued him during the season(this obviously isn't the only player to have that happen) and realized they can 'live' without that player. Pinnock looked decent (and bigger IMO) and there are other options especially when you will have to pay your other Safety a year from now. I thought Love was a great teammate and a lead by example kind of player. While I think those types are valuable, how much so is up for debate. I still look at Slayton as a JAG and not sure we didn't overpay for him.
RE: RE: RE: Point #2  
robbieballs2003 : 3/21/2023 8:28 am : link
In comment 16071449 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 16071430 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


In comment 16071427 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


doesn't make much sense. Earlier they wanted Love over Slayton but later they didn't? Sounds like speculation.

They either wanted both back or feelings got hurt.



Or the Giants spent more tham they thought and had to reevaluate.



Schoen doesn't come across as a fly by the seat of his pants kind of guy.


That's not my point. My point is that nobody thought Jones was getting the deal he did. We still have Barkley on the tag. We have like 3 mil in space right now if the other thread was accurate. Yes, we can make room if we want but that is just dipping into future years when we also have to pay rookies, have a good chunk of space for inseason moves which we weren't really able to make last year, and still have to address more needs on the team like C, CB, etc. As what was posted above, they wanted Love but they couldn't sit around on their asses waiting for him to figure out what he wanted. They made other moves and spent elsewhere.
robbie  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/21/2023 8:30 am : link
Perhaps.

But I think we're seeing a trend where players and agents overvalued themselves, pride painted them into a corner, and they decided to sign prove-it deals some place else.

Just speculation here on my part, but I think emotions/pride are the driving forces here with many of these moves.
I’m a huge fan of Love  
Chris684 : 3/21/2023 8:31 am : link
But it would appear that if he wanted to come back to NYG he misplayed his hand.
There's a ton of safeties out there  
Sammo85 : 3/21/2023 8:45 am : link
It's a heavy market for safeties and tweener types and given college game, DBs are coming out every year.

Wouldn't be stunned to see a S pick in the mid to late rounds just to keep depth.

Timing must have played a part  
JoeSchoens11 : 3/21/2023 8:55 am : link
Love refused a lower offer from us and visited Seattle. We signed Slayton that same day and then Love came back the next day asking if we would match Seattle’s offer (which is great that he did that). But by then we had already committed millions more and cap space was dwindling.
RE: So wanted Love over Slayton  
Red Right Hand : 3/21/2023 9:11 am : link
In comment 16071422 BillT said:
Quote:
That’s somewhat on Love for rejecting a good offer but I thought Slayton’s offer was more than market.
Maybe it was. After all, they did offer Love a contract first. He rejected it, they moved on down their to do list.
Sounds more like a miscalculation on his part and the Giants just doing business than anything else. He's a good guy, wish him well.
RE: robbie  
Victor in CT : 3/21/2023 9:16 am : link
In comment 16071454 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Perhaps.

But I think we're seeing a trend where players and agents overvalued themselves, pride painted them into a corner, and they decided to sign prove-it deals some place else.

Just speculation here on my part, but I think emotions/pride are the driving forces here with many of these moves.


agree. Barkley should have grabbed those deals the Giants offered and held on like grim death.

I really am impressed at Schoen's handling of FA both in signings and with their own FAs. put a # on them and that's it. and FA being used for back filling and depth, not big ticket splashes.
RE: RE: Point #2  
Red Right Hand : 3/21/2023 9:19 am : link
In comment 16071430 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 16071427 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


doesn't make much sense. Earlier they wanted Love over Slayton but later they didn't? Sounds like speculation.

They either wanted both back or feelings got hurt.



Or the Giants spent more tham they thought and had to reevaluate.
That's what I think actually happened. Pretty clear Jones wound up costing quite a bit more than they thought at the time they made the original offer to Love.

It was widely speculatde by the majority here, and the media, that the Giants wouldn't have the money for Slayton, Jones, Barkley AND Love, and that one would not be here this year. When musical chairs ended Love was the guy left without a seat. Had he signed at the time the original offer was made, it may well have been someone else not here, maybe slayton, or maybe the giants don't go that last extra bit at the end of negotiations and tag him instead. Remember, they were very, very close to doing so, and only after, on the last day, that jones, on his agents advice, made personal appeals to both management AND ownership, did they ultimately sign him.

Conventional wisdom that we wouldn't have all in this case was borne out by events.
RE: I guess Love overvalued  
Red Right Hand : 3/21/2023 9:20 am : link
In comment 16071431 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
himself when he rejected our offer during the season, unless it didn’t matter and he wanted Seattle as it turned out
I don't think he wanted Seattle, I think he wanted more money. He simply misplayed his hand is all.
RE: RE: I guess Love overvalued  
Red Right Hand : 3/21/2023 9:21 am : link
In comment 16071436 k2tampa said:
Quote:
In comment 16071431 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


himself when he rejected our offer during the season, unless it didn’t matter and he wanted Seattle as it turned out



If he wanted Seattle, why would he give the Giants the chance to match?
Exactly
RE: RE: RE: Point #2  
Red Right Hand : 3/21/2023 9:23 am : link
In comment 16071449 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 16071430 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


In comment 16071427 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


doesn't make much sense. Earlier they wanted Love over Slayton but later they didn't? Sounds like speculation.

They either wanted both back or feelings got hurt.



Or the Giants spent more tham they thought and had to reevaluate.



Schoen doesn't come across as a fly by the seat of his pants kind of guy.
He didn't. He made an offer, Love rejected it, Schoen moved on.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Point #2  
Red Right Hand : 3/21/2023 9:26 am : link
In comment 16071451 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 16071449 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


In comment 16071430 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


In comment 16071427 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


doesn't make much sense. Earlier they wanted Love over Slayton but later they didn't? Sounds like speculation.

They either wanted both back or feelings got hurt.



Or the Giants spent more tham they thought and had to reevaluate.



Schoen doesn't come across as a fly by the seat of his pants kind of guy.



That's not my point. My point is that nobody thought Jones was getting the deal he did. We still have Barkley on the tag. We have like 3 mil in space right now if the other thread was accurate. Yes, we can make room if we want but that is just dipping into future years when we also have to pay rookies, have a good chunk of space for inseason moves which we weren't really able to make last year, and still have to address more needs on the team like C, CB, etc. As what was posted above, they wanted Love but they couldn't sit around on their asses waiting for him to figure out what he wanted. They made other moves and spent elsewhere.
Yup. Simple as that.
RE: RE: So wanted Love over Slayton  
BillT : 3/21/2023 9:30 am : link
In comment 16071424 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 16071422 BillT said:


Quote:


That’s somewhat on Love for rejecting a good offer but I thought Slayton’s offer was more than market.



You can probably say that about Jones and Barkley too, which may have led to the Giants changing their mind on Love.

No, I wouldn’t say that about either Jones or Barkley. No comparable in any way.
I think the general economic gloominess in the world  
Ben in Tampa : 3/21/2023 9:46 am : link
seeped into NFL ownership and suppressed the FA market this year.

These are 32 of the most successful businessmen in history. Their contemporaries are spending less, cutting back, reducing headcount, etc. They aren't immune to it, these teams are businesses at the end of the day.

Pair that with a generally weaker free agent class, and you get the more restrained approach we've seen.


RE: Point #2  
RHPeel : 3/21/2023 9:47 am : link
In comment 16071427 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
doesn't make much sense. Earlier they wanted Love over Slayton but later they didn't? Sounds like speculation.

They either wanted both back or feelings got hurt.


I think it's possible that 1) They wanted both back; 2) They changed their mind on Slayton between the middle of the season and the end of the season; 3) They had a set amount of cap space they were willing to allocate to free agent retention, and Slayton grabbed what had been allotted to Love with his strong second half.

Jones also probably got some of it, given where his contract ended up coming in.
It  
AcidTest : 3/21/2023 9:57 am : link
sound like Love overvalued himself during and after the season as a FA. The Giants had already paid Slayton and didn't want to pay Love what Seattle offered. I assume they would have matched if Seattle's offer was made before the Giants signed Slayton, although that is admittedly just speculation. If that's what happened, it could be an object lesson for Barkley. RB isn't valued much more than S, and Barkley has a pretty long injury history.

Good luck to Love.
seems many still fixated on the Jones headline.  
Victor in CT : 3/21/2023 10:00 am : link
"only" $82 mill guaranteed
So the Giants offered Love X amount of dollars during the season.  
Blue21 : 3/21/2023 10:25 am : link
He turned it down. At the end of the season they offered him X amount (which was less than the amount during the season) Love said no and visited the Seahawks. They offered more but it was less than the Giants offered during the season.,so he went back to Giants and said can you match the Seahawks and they said no. For whatever reason and we ll never know why. Could be as simple as the negotiation went back and forth during the season and the Giants conceded more money or better terms and Schoen was sticking to do it now because the offer may not be there later. And it wasn't. May have nothing to do with players they have signed but have seen the safety market price decline.
RE: Point #2  
mfjmfj : 3/21/2023 10:31 am : link
In comment 16071427 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
doesn't make much sense. Earlier they wanted Love over Slayton but later they didn't? Sounds like speculation.

They either wanted both back or feelings got hurt.


I think the idea was the money was already spent. Seems silly to me as well.
this isn't hard to piece together  
Eric on Li : 3/21/2023 10:38 am : link
1. nyg liked love more than slayton, that's why they negotiated with him twice before UFA, that's why they were offering him a deal greater than what they gave slayton from the beginning.

2. nyg thought love/rosenhaus misjudged the market and they were proven right.

3. both sides disengaged to move on to other things bc FA moves fast and by the time love came back to them with an offer in their price range they were out of $.

free agency is dynamic but their process led to them resigning a player they valued below another one for the same amount. how avoidable it was who knows, but that's not a good outcome and in sports outcomes are what matters.

very good reporting by duggan - the nyg valued love, love wanted to remain a giant, there was no mysterious affinity for the pacific northwest or falling out. all we can do now is hope slayton reaches his potential, which even as someone who would have chosen love 100/100 times, id acknowledge is probably higher.
how is it still not clear that they liked love more than slayton?  
Eric on Li : 3/21/2023 10:45 am : link
duggan says even months ago their first offer to love was more $. that is a quite literal confirmation that they valued him more than slayton - who they had no such extensions discussions with.

they only ended up with slayton because of timing- he came back to them with a committable agreement before love did. speed kills.
RE: The Dallas papers  
Spiciest Memelord : 3/21/2023 10:55 am : link
In comment 16071435 Y28 said:
Quote:
are reporting that TE Dalton Schultz recently refused a 3 year $36 mil contract from the Cowboys. So Jerry walked away and Schultz got a one year deal with Houston.

The best Schultz can do this season? up to $9 mil if he hits all incentives.


Wouldn't be surprised if Jones was petulant and overly emotionally. A shame our GM is the same apparently.
I heard #1  
GiantGrit : 3/21/2023 11:20 am : link
did not hear anything on #2.
Saquon and his handlers really blew it  
MeanBunny : 3/21/2023 11:21 am : link
Now he has no long-term deal, might get traded, has less money. His agent is an absolute moron knowing that the RB position is not a top level pay position
RE: I don’t get this …  
islander1 : 3/21/2023 11:23 am : link
In comment 16071428 Spider56 said:
Quote:
What would signing Slayton have to do with Love … and if the Giants wanted him at a higher number during the season, why wouldn’t they sign him at a lower number to match? I think they decided Love hit a peak and they could upgrade.


I'm not sure what there is to understand.

The Giants had a set amount of money they wanted to spend on free agents. It sounds to me that if Love had agreed to offer the Giants 12 million/2 years BEFORE Slayton was resigned, it would be a done deal and they'd not sign Slayton.

Love, like Barkley, gambled on his value in free agency, and basically lost.
RE: Saquon and his handlers really blew it  
Eric on Li : 3/21/2023 11:27 am : link
In comment 16071649 MeanBunny said:
Quote:
Now he has no long-term deal, might get traded, has less money. His agent is an absolute moron knowing that the RB position is not a top level pay position


not really, he's got 10.5m gtd with the tag. the nyg aren't going to pull it and it's probably his best leverage to get a multi-year deal because the nyg were aggressive in spending $ so now they need cap space.

i do think part of the information getting out through duggan here is with the intent of players hearing that the nyg initial offer ended up higher than the open market. that's a cautionary tale as they are knee deep in a bunch of extension discussions.
RE: RE: Saquon and his handlers really blew it  
ArcadeSlumlord : 3/21/2023 1:12 pm : link
In comment 16071659 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16071649 MeanBunny said:


Quote:


Now he has no long-term deal, might get traded, has less money. His agent is an absolute moron knowing that the RB position is not a top level pay position



not really, he's got 10.5m gtd with the tag. the nyg aren't going to pull it and it's probably his best leverage to get a multi-year deal because the nyg were aggressive in spending $ so now they need cap space.

i do think part of the information getting out through duggan here is with the intent of players hearing that the nyg initial offer ended up higher than the open market. that's a cautionary tale as they are knee deep in a bunch of extension discussions.


Leo Williams....
What was the in-season timing of the Giants offer?  
Matt M. : 3/21/2023 1:39 pm : link
Because, if anything, I think his stock went down in the second half. I really like him and wanted him back. The first half of the season, I thought we had one of the top 5 S duos in the league. But, when McKinney was hurt, Love's game was disappointing. He was still good, but nowhere near the special player he looked like he was becoming in the first half.
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