“Teams I’m told are interested with the possible capital to pull off a trade for Hopkins include (but aren’t limited to) the New England Patriots, New York Giants, Tennessee Titans and Atlanta Falcons.” Hopkins - ( New Window )
They still need to improve the WRs but the bigger need is long-term than short term now, which to me points towards the draft. I think it's either dated info or maybe the Giants are poking around to see if a lowball will get it done as he still lingers on the market.
At the end of the day, it's all about the draft compensation and more importantly the contract. If Arizona is willing to take some of the weight out of it and Hopkins isn't looking for an extension or infusion of new money, then it's very viable.
They will be lucky to get a 5th for 2 yrs at 19.5M/14.5M. The more AZ takes on some of the money, the more they get in return. Not sure how much they would need to get their supposed ask of a 2nd rounder.
because there is a lot of information that we probably don't know, but I'm glad the Giants are inquiring and I really don't see the massive risk that some people are stating. I don't think Hopkins is going to get some record breaking contract and I think they can easily fit his cap number in.
Hopkins $19.5 mill contract this year and $14.5 mill next year and then need to deal with him wanting an extension, plus the honor of giving up draft picks.
I like the player, not the contract.
You keep saying this and I keep correcting you. He's not going to have a 19.5M contract this year AND sign an extension. The extension will restructure the contract and his cap hit would be closer to 10M if not less(See Brandin Cooks).
If he did not sign the extension than his cap hit would be 19.5 and the Giants would be able to cut or trade him any time without a dead cap hit.
is there really room on the roster to add Hopkins? I assume that WR would no longer be needed for a premium draft pick. Would there be room for Hopkins and a WR from the draft?
If you are against Hopkins coming here you sure better not push OBJ. This idea that Hopkins is done is beyond stupid and completely inaccurate. He is WAY more a sure thing than MR King of hype and self promotion OBJ. Beckham, coming off his second ACL and who missed all of last year and most of the last three years is absolutely not they guy for this team..
Wut? Fail. You absolutely can be for OBJ and against Hopkins, based on the fact that Hopkins will cost at least a premium pick, and OBJ doesn't, and based on the fact that OBJ's salary would assuredly involve less guaranteed money, and less money overall, with significant protection to the club should he be re-injured, because whatever deal OBJ gets will be incentive-laden.
And let's not act like Nuk isn't a diva receiver. Let's not act like he's the cleanest player with no downside.
Sure, side by side, removing the cost equation from them, Hopkins is the safer bet.
But absolutely is there a strong case to be made that OBJ is the more cost-effective bet because he doesn't involve draft comp and won't command nearly asuch guaranteed money.
No, I said if you think Hopkins is done or on the backside. You Beckham fans believe the hype so much, the guy is at best a rental for a short 8-10 week stretch. He is an injury waiting to happen and a distraction..
You: "If you are against Hopkins coming here you sure better not push OBJ."
It's the very first thing you said, and what I was responding to. Sure, after that you said:
"This idea that Hopkins is done is beyond stupid and completely inaccurate."
These are two separate statements. You may have intended to use the second statement as a pretext to the first, but for one reading it, the first statement can be taken by itself, and the second statement doesn't qualify the first statement. I agree with you in that I don't think Hopkins is finished. I don't agree with you that if you are against Hopkins coming here you shouldn't be for bringing in OBJ, for the reasons I stated, which is a cost-basis argument, not a performance-related argument.
I understand you and many others are convinced that OBJ is also done, an opinion I don't share. I do think the next significant injury (that requires a reconstructive surgery) would likely be the end of his career. I acknowledge all the risk, and the personality stuff. But I also think, if the stars can align where he stays healthy, much like the Giants are hoping they do for guys like Shepard, Campbell, and Waller, he can put together at least one more special season. I really believe that, because he is supremely talented.
I also think it's a 20% chance or less that Schoen brings him in, so my hopes aren't up, but I also won't be surprised if and when he puts together a terrific year for someone.
My thought is the Giants should get the best receiver they can in the first two rounds, maybe JSN or Hyatt in the first, or a Tillman or Scott in the 2nd. They need a young difference-maker in that group that doesn't have the wear-and-tear that exists with the rest of them.
Absent a significant addition, I expect that this time next year they will have signed a free agent WR at significant money. But there aren't guys set for free agency next year that I think fit the bill. Aiyuk, Jeudy, Jefferson, Lamb, all will have their options for the 5th year exercised. A few names... Tee Higgins I would be in favor of, and Mike Evans, who I'm not sure is the right scheme fit. Michael Pittman I also think isn't a scheme fit. I think Higgins fits any scheme. Calvin Ridley would be a hand-in-glove fit here, if the Jaguars don't extend him, which I expect they will do.
Now, if we're talking Brandon Aiyuk or Jerry Jeudy, and we didn't have to part with a first rounder, I'd be ok with that deal. Jeudy seems more realistic.
The most ideal situation for me would be the Giants to solve for the WR1 through the draft, because I believe that will help the Giants allocate more money to the defense where we really need it. I think they are really close to a championship-caliber defense, which I believe to be necessary for this era of Giants' football to compete for a SB.
If you are against Hopkins coming here you sure better not push OBJ. This idea that Hopkins is done is beyond stupid and completely inaccurate. He is WAY more a sure thing than MR King of hype and self promotion OBJ. Beckham, coming off his second ACL and who missed all of last year and most of the last three years is absolutely not they guy for this team..
Wut? Fail. You absolutely can be for OBJ and against Hopkins, based on the fact that Hopkins will cost at least a premium pick, and OBJ doesn't, and based on the fact that OBJ's salary would assuredly involve less guaranteed money, and less money overall, with significant protection to the club should he be re-injured, because whatever deal OBJ gets will be incentive-laden.
And let's not act like Nuk isn't a diva receiver. Let's not act like he's the cleanest player with no downside.
Sure, side by side, removing the cost equation from them, Hopkins is the safer bet.
But absolutely is there a strong case to be made that OBJ is the more cost-effective bet because he doesn't involve draft comp and won't command nearly asuch guaranteed money.
No, I said if you think Hopkins is done or on the backside. You Beckham fans believe the hype so much, the guy is at best a rental for a short 8-10 week stretch. He is an injury waiting to happen and a distraction..
You: "If you are against Hopkins coming here you sure better not push OBJ."
It's the very first thing you said, and what I was responding to. Sure, after that you said:
"This idea that Hopkins is done is beyond stupid and completely inaccurate."
These are two separate statements. You may have intended to use the second statement as a pretext to the first, but for one reading it, the first statement can be taken by itself, and the second statement doesn't qualify the first statement. I agree with you in that I don't think Hopkins is finished. I don't agree with you that if you are against Hopkins coming here you shouldn't be for bringing in OBJ, for the reasons I stated, which is a cost-basis argument, not a performance-related argument.
I understand you and many others are convinced that OBJ is also done, an opinion I don't share. I do think the next significant injury (that requires a reconstructive surgery) would likely be the end of his career. I acknowledge all the risk, and the personality stuff. But I also think, if the stars can align where he stays healthy, much like the Giants are hoping they do for guys like Shepard, Campbell, and Waller, he can put together at least one more special season. I really believe that, because he is supremely talented.
I also think it's a 20% chance or less that Schoen brings him in, so my hopes aren't up, but I also won't be surprised if and when he puts together a terrific year for someone.
My thought is the Giants should get the best receiver they can in the first two rounds, maybe JSN or Hyatt in the first, or a Tillman or Scott in the 2nd. They need a young difference-maker in that group that doesn't have the wear-and-tear that exists with the rest of them.
Absent a significant addition, I expect that this time next year they will have signed a free agent WR at significant money. But there aren't guys set for free agency next year that I think fit the bill. Aiyuk, Jeudy, Jefferson, Lamb, all will have their options for the 5th year exercised. A few names... Tee Higgins I would be in favor of, and Mike Evans, who I'm not sure is the right scheme fit. Michael Pittman I also think isn't a scheme fit. I think Higgins fits any scheme. Calvin Ridley would be a hand-in-glove fit here, if the Jaguars don't extend him, which I expect they will do.
Now, if we're talking Brandon Aiyuk or Jerry Jeudy, and we didn't have to part with a first rounder, I'd be ok with that deal. Jeudy seems more realistic.
The most ideal situation for me would be the Giants to solve for the WR1 through the draft, because I believe that will help the Giants allocate more money to the defense where we really need it. I think they are really close to a championship-caliber defense, which I believe to be necessary for this era of Giants' football to compete for a SB.
Again, he may put up 2 super superb years in a row, perhaps HOF years, but the major problem for Dabes in the now in sync lockerroom, is the social media frenzy he will bring and always will bring to the team. Dabes cannot possibly want that, even if OBJ performs as an all-star. This is my opinion that is most likely Schoen’s and Dabes’, imv..
Not about talent
Then when you get past the off the field reasons why
OBJ is a bad fit, it is about the talent because he will never be that guy again. Its over. At best, he will be a possession receiver, but he's not big and he doesnt have great hands.
Hopkins $19.5 mill contract this year and $14.5 mill next year and then need to deal with him wanting an extension, plus the honor of giving up draft picks.
I like the player, not the contract.
Is that really a lot of money for a #1 receiver?? Extend LW, and Adoree. That alone get's you there. No other player in FA or the draft would have a bigger impact on the 2023 season IMO.
It's a lot of money for a player who can't stay healthy.
with their extreme interest in shiny big name players on the wrong side of 30. Didn't anyone read the thread about how bad and ranked last our oline is?
Hopkins $19.5 mill contract this year and $14.5 mill next year and then need to deal with him wanting an extension, plus the honor of giving up draft picks.
I like the player, not the contract.
Is that really a lot of money for a #1 receiver?? Extend LW, and Adoree. That alone get's you there. No other player in FA or the draft would have a bigger impact on the 2023 season IMO.
It's a lot of money for a player who can't stay healthy.
lol. do people just look at espn stats and games played and then just parrot the same things? He had 1 year where he battled an injury and he's fully healed from the torn MCL which is not a long term debilitating injury.
with their extreme interest in shiny big name players on the wrong side of 30. Didn't anyone read the thread about how bad and ranked last our oline is?
You keep saying this. Sheesh, FA recently started, they’ll fill in the OL via FA depth signings abd through the draft. Do you really believe, after last season, that this won’t be addressed?
The Giants have one of the youngest teams in the NFL
and very few players over the age of 30. It's ok to have a few guys over 30 years old. All of the good teams do. He can keep saying the same thing, but it doesn't make it right.
with their extreme interest in shiny big name players on the wrong side of 30. Didn't anyone read the thread about how bad and ranked last our oline is?
with their extreme interest in shiny big name players on the wrong side of 30. Didn't anyone read the thread about how bad and ranked last our oline is?
Extreme interest? Weird post.
Extreme interest might be overstating it, but I think what he is saying and I don't want to speak with him, is that if we were to get Hopkins, we would have also singed Waller ( a guy with an injury history) and are paying Barkley (another guy with an injury history) and that the real problem with our skill players could be that our OL does not give the offense enough time to operate. I think if we sign guys like Waller and Hopkins and franchised Barkley (with the intent of a new deal) and our Offensive Line is horrendous--it is a bad move by our GM. This thought that everything Joe Schoen does or is rumored to do is unassailable is getting old quickly. Jerry Reese tried this exact same strategy and it failed miserably. Fix the offensive line (and I am not saying he won't through the draft), but I don't blame people for questioning priorities until he does so.
have SB, Waller and Hopkins AND improve the OL? I mean, they really only need 2 guys for the interior OL right now and they still have a ton of draft picks and some ability to create money.
Why do people think that bringing in (2) 30 year olds will prevent anything?
that the process was unexpectedly accelerated based on how last year went.
In other words, when Schoen & Daboll got here they probably didn't imagine re-signing Jones, Barkley, Slayton, Dex, etc. The players won them over and they had more success than anticipated, and that has caused them to manage the next 3 years differently.
Essentially they went from "slow rebuild" mode to "competitive window". And that changed at some point during the year.
that the process was unexpectedly accelerated based on how last year went.
In other words, when Schoen & Daboll got here they probably didn't imagine re-signing Jones, Barkley, Slayton, Dex, etc. The players won them over and they had more success than anticipated, and that has caused them to manage the next 3 years differently.
Essentially they went from "slow rebuild" mode to "competitive window". And that changed at some point during the year.
presumably it was whenever they decided they were sold on jones. rico reported they went hard on dj moore at the deadline, so if i was guessing a specific game maybe the green bay win october 9th after saquon went out and jones still led the 4q comeback.
have SB, Waller and Hopkins AND improve the OL? I mean, they really only need 2 guys for the interior OL right now and they still have a ton of draft picks and some ability to create money.
Why do people think that bringing in (2) 30 year olds will prevent anything?
nobody say they can't, but they haven't yet. Until then, people are going to be skeptical. Plus, we have not helped our offensive line we have only lost players from it. So, we have a lot of work to do there and I think if we are able to get it done and improve in that area--most will be happy. Until then, I don't really think they are wrong if they allow for the possibility that it can change because the off season isnt over.
There is still a ton of time from now until camp. There is more FA. There is the draft. There will be cuts. There can be trades. Why would this even be a concern in march?
Don't get Hopkins because they haven't filled out the OL yet? Even though there is still time and resources.
DHop probably gets eother subsidized by Arizona or his contract gets reworked by Giants. He won't be a 19M cap hit. Probably like Cowboys it'll be at least 6M less.
Also they have about 30-40M they can add to cap space with restructures or extensions of 4 or 5 players.
They can absolutely fit D-Hop and they may like our OL more than we do.
Ezeudu apparently they are very high on as a high third, he also flashed and probably see him as a starter next year. Bred has surpassed expectations and have been an adequate if unspectacular starter for us. He probably is an upgrade at OC over Feliciano.
I also hope for another OL but I like Bred and Ezeudus movement/lateral agility. I think they can be at least adequate IOL for us. My big concern is the progression of Neal.
Don't get Hopkins because they haven't filled out the OL yet? Even though there is still time and resources.
No, the point is don't get Hopkins as a substitute for a shitty Oline in the hope that it will paper over those cracks. If both are on the agenda and can feasibly be done--fine. You are assuming it is getting done, which is just as crappy an argument as someone who assumes it won't get done. We don't know, but the point is one without the other is not going to help up get where we want to be as an offense.
I think the FO knows exactly where we stand on the OL
and I'd bet that if a HOF guard was available for a steal of a price, they'd be in on that player too. Then you'd have an argument that we are too focused on WR and not enough on OL. However, its not reality.
Don't get Hopkins because they haven't filled out the OL yet? Even though there is still time and resources.
DHop probably gets eother subsidized by Arizona or his contract gets reworked by Giants. He won't be a 19M cap hit. Probably like Cowboys it'll be at least 6M less.
Also they have about 30-40M they can add to cap space with restructures or extensions of 4 or 5 players.
They can absolutely fit D-Hop and they may like our OL more than we do.
Ezeudu apparently they are very high on as a high third, he also flashed and probably see him as a starter next year. Bred has surpassed expectations and have been an adequate if unspectacular starter for us. He probably is an upgrade at OC over Feliciano.
I also hope for another OL but I like Bred and Ezeudus movement/lateral agility. I think they can be at least adequate IOL for us. My big concern is the progression of Neal.
They must like our OL better than PFF's dead last ranking.
Don't get Hopkins because they haven't filled out the OL yet? Even though there is still time and resources.
DHop probably gets eother subsidized by Arizona or his contract gets reworked by Giants. He won't be a 19M cap hit. Probably like Cowboys it'll be at least 6M less.
Also they have about 30-40M they can add to cap space with restructures or extensions of 4 or 5 players.
They can absolutely fit D-Hop and they may like our OL more than we do.
Ezeudu apparently they are very high on as a high third, he also flashed and probably see him as a starter next year. Bred has surpassed expectations and have been an adequate if unspectacular starter for us. He probably is an upgrade at OC over Feliciano.
I also hope for another OL but I like Bred and Ezeudus movement/lateral agility. I think they can be at least adequate IOL for us. My big concern is the progression of Neal.
They must like our OL better than PFF's dead last ranking.
I hear you. No doubt they stunk last year much of the year...
Learning curve in new system, Neal's horrid rookie year, Feliciano stinking for most of year, not realizing Bredeson was actually half decent, injuries, all were big contributing factors.
This year its a bit different and in theory improved:
LT Thomas- top 5 in NFL
LG- Glowinski- average but adequate
OC - Bredeson - projects quite a bit better than Feliciano, EZ and Lemieux backups and will take snaps at OC
RG- Ezeudu high 3rd and flashed, excellent feet
RT 2nd year Neal, with Phillips as the backup plan
Right or wrong they probably think this is a strong enough group 2nd year in the system and with 2 starters no longer rookies but 2nd year players. They probably add somewhere in the draft here too.
RE: I think the FO knows exactly where we stand on the OL
and I'd bet that if a HOF guard was available for a steal of a price, they'd be in on that player too. Then you'd have an argument that we are too focused on WR and not enough on OL. However, its not reality.
I know this reality, getting Hopkins at any price (cheap or not) is not worth anything without a functional offensive line. That I know. So, if you can't do both you might as well save the draft capital and invest in that offensive line. Great skill players are always available for a variety of reasons--if we miss the boat on Hopkins (at age 30 and coming off a PED Ban) we will live. But, again, if both can be done, I am for it.
Don't get Hopkins because they haven't filled out the OL yet? Even though there is still time and resources.
DHop probably gets eother subsidized by Arizona or his contract gets reworked by Giants. He won't be a 19M cap hit. Probably like Cowboys it'll be at least 6M less.
Also they have about 30-40M they can add to cap space with restructures or extensions of 4 or 5 players.
They can absolutely fit D-Hop and they may like our OL more than we do.
Ezeudu apparently they are very high on as a high third, he also flashed and probably see him as a starter next year. Bred has surpassed expectations and have been an adequate if unspectacular starter for us. He probably is an upgrade at OC over Feliciano.
I also hope for another OL but I like Bred and Ezeudus movement/lateral agility. I think they can be at least adequate IOL for us. My big concern is the progression of Neal.
They must like our OL better than PFF's dead last ranking.
I hear you. No doubt they stunk last year much of the year...
Learning curve in new system, Neal's horrid rookie year, Feliciano stinking for most of year, not realizing Bredeson was actually half decent, injuries, all were big contributing factors.
This year its a bit different and in theory improved:
LT Thomas- top 5 in NFL
LG- Glowinski- average but adequate
OC - Bredeson - projects quite a bit better than Feliciano, EZ and Lemieux backups and will take snaps at OC
RG- Ezeudu high 3rd and flashed, excellent feet
RT 2nd year Neal, with Phillips as the backup plan
Right or wrong they probably think this is a strong enough group 2nd year in the system and with 2 starters no longer rookies but 2nd year players. They probably add somewhere in the draft here too.
3 guys changing positions on the OL doesn't seem like a good way to settle things down.
RE: RE: My head is spinning with how many weapons we would have
and very few players over the age of 30. It's ok to have a few guys over 30 years old. All of the good teams do. He can keep saying the same thing, but it doesn't make it right.
Figured this was as good a post as any to agree and build on this premise. I have always said and speculated that some of the best kept secrets in championship building is to sign the older but productive guys in FA. Sure you get them for less years and sure there is risk that player fades out. In a perfect world you'd get the 25 year old in his prime player but perfect doesn't exist, especially in FA, and I still say the 25 year old is just as likely to get hurt as the cagey 30 year old and in some cases that cagey and savy player is less an injury risk than many think.
Again, not saying you want a bunch of old guys but go look at NFL history and you will see plenty of title winning teams that got there on the backs of older players. You most definitely can turn a good team into a great one by adding an older player and to suggest otherwise or to ignore that method is just....shortsighted.
i'd love to see a serious deep dive into NFL player health
and what the numbers show comparing the risk factor in signing a guy like Hopkins and for arguments sake comparing that to a player who is 4 years younger. Just over the next 1-2 seasons. Who is more likely to get hurt? The 27 year old or the 31 year old. I'll bet it's not the slam dunk some here think.
Dov Kleiman
@NFL_DovKleiman
Update: The #Cardinals will not be able to get their initial asking price of a "2nd round pick and another asset" in a trade for WR DeAndre Hopkins, per @AlbertBreer
He thinks it will be closer to the #Cowboys Brandin Cooks trade of a 5th and 6th round picks.
RE: i still think with waller it's unlikely but if the price keeps falling
Dov Kleiman
@NFL_DovKleiman
Update: The #Cardinals will not be able to get their initial asking price of a "2nd round pick and another asset" in a trade for WR DeAndre Hopkins, per @AlbertBreer
He thinks it will be closer to the #Cowboys Brandin Cooks trade of a 5th and 6th round picks.
I don't think the acquiring team will get that fortunate - the Cooks package - but anything close (say a 3rd/4th/5th combination) will be well worth getting involved in.
Dov Kleiman
@NFL_DovKleiman
Update: The #Cardinals will not be able to get their initial asking price of a "2nd round pick and another asset" in a trade for WR DeAndre Hopkins, per @AlbertBreer
He thinks it will be closer to the #Cowboys Brandin Cooks trade of a 5th and 6th round picks.
I don't think the acquiring team will get that fortunate - the Cooks package - but anything close (say a 3rd/4th/5th combination) will be well worth getting involved in.
If Cooks was a 5 and 6. D-Hop feels like a 4th with 6-8M of his contract subsidized by Arizona or a salary rework by his acquiring team for a smaller cap hit.
If you are against Hopkins coming here you sure better not push OBJ. This idea that Hopkins is done is beyond stupid and completely inaccurate. He is WAY more a sure thing than MR King of hype and self promotion OBJ. Beckham, coming off his second ACL and who missed all of last year and most of the last three years is absolutely not they guy for this team..
Uh, except OBJ is far cheaper—both in terms of salary and draft capital to acquire. But, by all means, keep on pushing your narrative about how great of an idea it is to trade at least a prime pick and mortgage the future for an expensive wr the wrong side of 30 who’s missed time and had a recent PED suspension …
If you are against Hopkins coming here you sure better not push OBJ. This idea that Hopkins is done is beyond stupid and completely inaccurate. He is WAY more a sure thing than MR King of hype and self promotion OBJ. Beckham, coming off his second ACL and who missed all of last year and most of the last three years is absolutely not they guy for this team..
Uh, except OBJ is far cheaper—both in terms of salary and draft capital to acquire. But, by all means, keep on pushing your narrative about how great of an idea it is to trade at least a prime pick and mortgage the future for an expensive wr the wrong side of 30 who’s missed time and had a recent PED suspension …
Remember when OBJ was OBJ. He was on a HOF trajectory and put up insane numbers. The last time he did that was 2016. Hopkins has been doing that his whole career and did it as recently as 2020 and was on pace in 2022 to do it again. OBJ is not that dude.
If you are against Hopkins coming here you sure better not push OBJ. This idea that Hopkins is done is beyond stupid and completely inaccurate. He is WAY more a sure thing than MR King of hype and self promotion OBJ. Beckham, coming off his second ACL and who missed all of last year and most of the last three years is absolutely not they guy for this team..
Uh, except OBJ is far cheaper—both in terms of salary and draft capital to acquire. But, by all means, keep on pushing your narrative about how great of an idea it is to trade at least a prime pick and mortgage the future for an expensive wr the wrong side of 30 who’s missed time and had a recent PED suspension …
Remember when OBJ was OBJ. He was on a HOF trajectory and put up insane numbers. The last time he did that was 2016. Hopkins has been doing that his whole career and did it as recently as 2020 and was on pace in 2022 to do it again. OBJ is not that dude.
This is the main point here. OBJ is so much more injury prone than Hopkins.
Waller
Hopkins
Barkley
That's a very high end top 3 that can compete with any team's top 3 if healthy.
RE: RE: i still think with waller it's unlikely but if the price keeps falling
Dov Kleiman
@NFL_DovKleiman
Update: The #Cardinals will not be able to get their initial asking price of a "2nd round pick and another asset" in a trade for WR DeAndre Hopkins, per @AlbertBreer
He thinks it will be closer to the #Cowboys Brandin Cooks trade of a 5th and 6th round picks.
I don't think the acquiring team will get that fortunate - the Cooks package - but anything close (say a 3rd/4th/5th combination) will be well worth getting involved in.
if i were arizona id be looking to pay down as much $ as possible and take whatever pick this year (2023) in return for a good conditional pick in 2024. i.e. maybe it's a day 3 but if he's still on the team's roster in 2024, it's a 2nd or 3rd. or if he makes a pro bowl.
if i were the nyg, that's the type of offer i'd also consider. you are only giving up a day 2 pick if he plays well enough to stick around next year.
“ Update: The #Bills, #Patriots, #Ravens, #Raiders, and #Falcons are the 5 teams in on WR DeAndre Hopkins, according to Pacman Jones on the @PatMcAfeeShow:”
I don't think the acquiring team will get that fortunate - the Cooks package - but anything close (say a 3rd/4th/5th combination) will be well worth getting involved in.
if i were arizona id be looking to pay down as much $ as possible and take whatever pick this year (2023) in return for a good conditional pick in 2024. i.e. maybe it's a day 3 but if he's still on the team's roster in 2024, it's a 2nd or 3rd. or if he makes a pro bowl.
if i were the nyg, that's the type of offer i'd also consider. you are only giving up a day 2 pick if he plays well enough to stick around next year.
That's a good idea. But Arizona has a first time GM - M. Ossenfort - and first time HC - J.Gannon. So, who the hell knows where they want to go and how sophisticated Ossenfort is at this sort of thing.
At the end of the day, it's all about the draft compensation and more importantly the contract. If Arizona is willing to take some of the weight out of it and Hopkins isn't looking for an extension or infusion of new money, then it's very viable.
Under that scenario, that’s fine with me as a fan
Quote:
Extend LW, SB, and AJ and pull this off for a #3 and I'll say we are a potential SB contender.
SB? maybe if we shore up IOL and maybe cb
signing ashawn too
we would be a solid playoff contender hopkins good is he better than odell without comp?
Why not, during the 2021 season when the Eagles were going 9-8 did you think they'd be in the Superbowl the following year?
Why not? He's still playing at an elite level.
I like the player, not the contract.
You keep saying this and I keep correcting you. He's not going to have a 19.5M contract this year AND sign an extension. The extension will restructure the contract and his cap hit would be closer to 10M if not less(See Brandin Cooks).
If he did not sign the extension than his cap hit would be 19.5 and the Giants would be able to cut or trade him any time without a dead cap hit.
+1
Quote:
In comment 16072345 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
If you are against Hopkins coming here you sure better not push OBJ. This idea that Hopkins is done is beyond stupid and completely inaccurate. He is WAY more a sure thing than MR King of hype and self promotion OBJ. Beckham, coming off his second ACL and who missed all of last year and most of the last three years is absolutely not they guy for this team..
Wut? Fail. You absolutely can be for OBJ and against Hopkins, based on the fact that Hopkins will cost at least a premium pick, and OBJ doesn't, and based on the fact that OBJ's salary would assuredly involve less guaranteed money, and less money overall, with significant protection to the club should he be re-injured, because whatever deal OBJ gets will be incentive-laden.
And let's not act like Nuk isn't a diva receiver. Let's not act like he's the cleanest player with no downside.
Sure, side by side, removing the cost equation from them, Hopkins is the safer bet.
But absolutely is there a strong case to be made that OBJ is the more cost-effective bet because he doesn't involve draft comp and won't command nearly asuch guaranteed money.
No, I said if you think Hopkins is done or on the backside. You Beckham fans believe the hype so much, the guy is at best a rental for a short 8-10 week stretch. He is an injury waiting to happen and a distraction..
You: "If you are against Hopkins coming here you sure better not push OBJ."
It's the very first thing you said, and what I was responding to. Sure, after that you said:
"This idea that Hopkins is done is beyond stupid and completely inaccurate."
These are two separate statements. You may have intended to use the second statement as a pretext to the first, but for one reading it, the first statement can be taken by itself, and the second statement doesn't qualify the first statement. I agree with you in that I don't think Hopkins is finished. I don't agree with you that if you are against Hopkins coming here you shouldn't be for bringing in OBJ, for the reasons I stated, which is a cost-basis argument, not a performance-related argument.
I understand you and many others are convinced that OBJ is also done, an opinion I don't share. I do think the next significant injury (that requires a reconstructive surgery) would likely be the end of his career. I acknowledge all the risk, and the personality stuff. But I also think, if the stars can align where he stays healthy, much like the Giants are hoping they do for guys like Shepard, Campbell, and Waller, he can put together at least one more special season. I really believe that, because he is supremely talented.
I also think it's a 20% chance or less that Schoen brings him in, so my hopes aren't up, but I also won't be surprised if and when he puts together a terrific year for someone.
My thought is the Giants should get the best receiver they can in the first two rounds, maybe JSN or Hyatt in the first, or a Tillman or Scott in the 2nd. They need a young difference-maker in that group that doesn't have the wear-and-tear that exists with the rest of them.
Absent a significant addition, I expect that this time next year they will have signed a free agent WR at significant money. But there aren't guys set for free agency next year that I think fit the bill. Aiyuk, Jeudy, Jefferson, Lamb, all will have their options for the 5th year exercised. A few names... Tee Higgins I would be in favor of, and Mike Evans, who I'm not sure is the right scheme fit. Michael Pittman I also think isn't a scheme fit. I think Higgins fits any scheme. Calvin Ridley would be a hand-in-glove fit here, if the Jaguars don't extend him, which I expect they will do.
Now, if we're talking Brandon Aiyuk or Jerry Jeudy, and we didn't have to part with a first rounder, I'd be ok with that deal. Jeudy seems more realistic.
The most ideal situation for me would be the Giants to solve for the WR1 through the draft, because I believe that will help the Giants allocate more money to the defense where we really need it. I think they are really close to a championship-caliber defense, which I believe to be necessary for this era of Giants' football to compete for a SB.
Quote:
In comment 16072370 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 16072345 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
If you are against Hopkins coming here you sure better not push OBJ. This idea that Hopkins is done is beyond stupid and completely inaccurate. He is WAY more a sure thing than MR King of hype and self promotion OBJ. Beckham, coming off his second ACL and who missed all of last year and most of the last three years is absolutely not they guy for this team..
Wut? Fail. You absolutely can be for OBJ and against Hopkins, based on the fact that Hopkins will cost at least a premium pick, and OBJ doesn't, and based on the fact that OBJ's salary would assuredly involve less guaranteed money, and less money overall, with significant protection to the club should he be re-injured, because whatever deal OBJ gets will be incentive-laden.
And let's not act like Nuk isn't a diva receiver. Let's not act like he's the cleanest player with no downside.
Sure, side by side, removing the cost equation from them, Hopkins is the safer bet.
But absolutely is there a strong case to be made that OBJ is the more cost-effective bet because he doesn't involve draft comp and won't command nearly asuch guaranteed money.
No, I said if you think Hopkins is done or on the backside. You Beckham fans believe the hype so much, the guy is at best a rental for a short 8-10 week stretch. He is an injury waiting to happen and a distraction..
You: "If you are against Hopkins coming here you sure better not push OBJ."
It's the very first thing you said, and what I was responding to. Sure, after that you said:
"This idea that Hopkins is done is beyond stupid and completely inaccurate."
These are two separate statements. You may have intended to use the second statement as a pretext to the first, but for one reading it, the first statement can be taken by itself, and the second statement doesn't qualify the first statement. I agree with you in that I don't think Hopkins is finished. I don't agree with you that if you are against Hopkins coming here you shouldn't be for bringing in OBJ, for the reasons I stated, which is a cost-basis argument, not a performance-related argument.
I understand you and many others are convinced that OBJ is also done, an opinion I don't share. I do think the next significant injury (that requires a reconstructive surgery) would likely be the end of his career. I acknowledge all the risk, and the personality stuff. But I also think, if the stars can align where he stays healthy, much like the Giants are hoping they do for guys like Shepard, Campbell, and Waller, he can put together at least one more special season. I really believe that, because he is supremely talented.
I also think it's a 20% chance or less that Schoen brings him in, so my hopes aren't up, but I also won't be surprised if and when he puts together a terrific year for someone.
My thought is the Giants should get the best receiver they can in the first two rounds, maybe JSN or Hyatt in the first, or a Tillman or Scott in the 2nd. They need a young difference-maker in that group that doesn't have the wear-and-tear that exists with the rest of them.
Absent a significant addition, I expect that this time next year they will have signed a free agent WR at significant money. But there aren't guys set for free agency next year that I think fit the bill. Aiyuk, Jeudy, Jefferson, Lamb, all will have their options for the 5th year exercised. A few names... Tee Higgins I would be in favor of, and Mike Evans, who I'm not sure is the right scheme fit. Michael Pittman I also think isn't a scheme fit. I think Higgins fits any scheme. Calvin Ridley would be a hand-in-glove fit here, if the Jaguars don't extend him, which I expect they will do.
Now, if we're talking Brandon Aiyuk or Jerry Jeudy, and we didn't have to part with a first rounder, I'd be ok with that deal. Jeudy seems more realistic.
The most ideal situation for me would be the Giants to solve for the WR1 through the draft, because I believe that will help the Giants allocate more money to the defense where we really need it. I think they are really close to a championship-caliber defense, which I believe to be necessary for this era of Giants' football to compete for a SB.
Again, he may put up 2 super superb years in a row, perhaps HOF years, but the major problem for Dabes in the now in sync lockerroom, is the social media frenzy he will bring and always will bring to the team. Dabes cannot possibly want that, even if OBJ performs as an all-star. This is my opinion that is most likely Schoen’s and Dabes’, imv..
Not about talent
Giants are too smart to bring in a guy like that.
Quote:
Hopkins $19.5 mill contract this year and $14.5 mill next year and then need to deal with him wanting an extension, plus the honor of giving up draft picks.
I like the player, not the contract.
Is that really a lot of money for a #1 receiver?? Extend LW, and Adoree. That alone get's you there. No other player in FA or the draft would have a bigger impact on the 2023 season IMO.
It's a lot of money for a player who can't stay healthy.
Quote:
In comment 16072292 section125 said:
Quote:
Hopkins $19.5 mill contract this year and $14.5 mill next year and then need to deal with him wanting an extension, plus the honor of giving up draft picks.
I like the player, not the contract.
Is that really a lot of money for a #1 receiver?? Extend LW, and Adoree. That alone get's you there. No other player in FA or the draft would have a bigger impact on the 2023 season IMO.
It's a lot of money for a player who can't stay healthy.
lol. do people just look at espn stats and games played and then just parrot the same things? He had 1 year where he battled an injury and he's fully healed from the torn MCL which is not a long term debilitating injury.
You keep saying this. Sheesh, FA recently started, they’ll fill in the OL via FA depth signings abd through the draft. Do you really believe, after last season, that this won’t be addressed?
Extreme interest? Weird post.
Quote:
with their extreme interest in shiny big name players on the wrong side of 30. Didn't anyone read the thread about how bad and ranked last our oline is?
Extreme interest? Weird post.
Extreme interest might be overstating it, but I think what he is saying and I don't want to speak with him, is that if we were to get Hopkins, we would have also singed Waller ( a guy with an injury history) and are paying Barkley (another guy with an injury history) and that the real problem with our skill players could be that our OL does not give the offense enough time to operate. I think if we sign guys like Waller and Hopkins and franchised Barkley (with the intent of a new deal) and our Offensive Line is horrendous--it is a bad move by our GM. This thought that everything Joe Schoen does or is rumored to do is unassailable is getting old quickly. Jerry Reese tried this exact same strategy and it failed miserably. Fix the offensive line (and I am not saying he won't through the draft), but I don't blame people for questioning priorities until he does so.
Why do people think that bringing in (2) 30 year olds will prevent anything?
In other words, when Schoen & Daboll got here they probably didn't imagine re-signing Jones, Barkley, Slayton, Dex, etc. The players won them over and they had more success than anticipated, and that has caused them to manage the next 3 years differently.
Essentially they went from "slow rebuild" mode to "competitive window". And that changed at some point during the year.
In other words, when Schoen & Daboll got here they probably didn't imagine re-signing Jones, Barkley, Slayton, Dex, etc. The players won them over and they had more success than anticipated, and that has caused them to manage the next 3 years differently.
Essentially they went from "slow rebuild" mode to "competitive window". And that changed at some point during the year.
presumably it was whenever they decided they were sold on jones. rico reported they went hard on dj moore at the deadline, so if i was guessing a specific game maybe the green bay win october 9th after saquon went out and jones still led the 4q comeback.
Why do people think that bringing in (2) 30 year olds will prevent anything?
nobody say they can't, but they haven't yet. Until then, people are going to be skeptical. Plus, we have not helped our offensive line we have only lost players from it. So, we have a lot of work to do there and I think if we are able to get it done and improve in that area--most will be happy. Until then, I don't really think they are wrong if they allow for the possibility that it can change because the off season isnt over.
DHop probably gets eother subsidized by Arizona or his contract gets reworked by Giants. He won't be a 19M cap hit. Probably like Cowboys it'll be at least 6M less.
Also they have about 30-40M they can add to cap space with restructures or extensions of 4 or 5 players.
They can absolutely fit D-Hop and they may like our OL more than we do.
Ezeudu apparently they are very high on as a high third, he also flashed and probably see him as a starter next year. Bred has surpassed expectations and have been an adequate if unspectacular starter for us. He probably is an upgrade at OC over Feliciano.
I also hope for another OL but I like Bred and Ezeudus movement/lateral agility. I think they can be at least adequate IOL for us. My big concern is the progression of Neal.
No, the point is don't get Hopkins as a substitute for a shitty Oline in the hope that it will paper over those cracks. If both are on the agenda and can feasibly be done--fine. You are assuming it is getting done, which is just as crappy an argument as someone who assumes it won't get done. We don't know, but the point is one without the other is not going to help up get where we want to be as an offense.
Quote:
Don't get Hopkins because they haven't filled out the OL yet? Even though there is still time and resources.
DHop probably gets eother subsidized by Arizona or his contract gets reworked by Giants. He won't be a 19M cap hit. Probably like Cowboys it'll be at least 6M less.
Also they have about 30-40M they can add to cap space with restructures or extensions of 4 or 5 players.
They can absolutely fit D-Hop and they may like our OL more than we do.
Ezeudu apparently they are very high on as a high third, he also flashed and probably see him as a starter next year. Bred has surpassed expectations and have been an adequate if unspectacular starter for us. He probably is an upgrade at OC over Feliciano.
I also hope for another OL but I like Bred and Ezeudus movement/lateral agility. I think they can be at least adequate IOL for us. My big concern is the progression of Neal.
They must like our OL better than PFF's dead last ranking.
Quote:
In comment 16072609 Kmed6000 said:
Quote:
Don't get Hopkins because they haven't filled out the OL yet? Even though there is still time and resources.
DHop probably gets eother subsidized by Arizona or his contract gets reworked by Giants. He won't be a 19M cap hit. Probably like Cowboys it'll be at least 6M less.
Also they have about 30-40M they can add to cap space with restructures or extensions of 4 or 5 players.
They can absolutely fit D-Hop and they may like our OL more than we do.
Ezeudu apparently they are very high on as a high third, he also flashed and probably see him as a starter next year. Bred has surpassed expectations and have been an adequate if unspectacular starter for us. He probably is an upgrade at OC over Feliciano.
I also hope for another OL but I like Bred and Ezeudus movement/lateral agility. I think they can be at least adequate IOL for us. My big concern is the progression of Neal.
They must like our OL better than PFF's dead last ranking.
I hear you. No doubt they stunk last year much of the year...
Learning curve in new system, Neal's horrid rookie year, Feliciano stinking for most of year, not realizing Bredeson was actually half decent, injuries, all were big contributing factors.
This year its a bit different and in theory improved:
LT Thomas- top 5 in NFL
LG- Glowinski- average but adequate
OC - Bredeson - projects quite a bit better than Feliciano, EZ and Lemieux backups and will take snaps at OC
RG- Ezeudu high 3rd and flashed, excellent feet
RT 2nd year Neal, with Phillips as the backup plan
Right or wrong they probably think this is a strong enough group 2nd year in the system and with 2 starters no longer rookies but 2nd year players. They probably add somewhere in the draft here too.
I know this reality, getting Hopkins at any price (cheap or not) is not worth anything without a functional offensive line. That I know. So, if you can't do both you might as well save the draft capital and invest in that offensive line. Great skill players are always available for a variety of reasons--if we miss the boat on Hopkins (at age 30 and coming off a PED Ban) we will live. But, again, if both can be done, I am for it.
Quote:
In comment 16072615 CornerStone246+17 said:
Quote:
In comment 16072609 Kmed6000 said:
Quote:
Don't get Hopkins because they haven't filled out the OL yet? Even though there is still time and resources.
DHop probably gets eother subsidized by Arizona or his contract gets reworked by Giants. He won't be a 19M cap hit. Probably like Cowboys it'll be at least 6M less.
Also they have about 30-40M they can add to cap space with restructures or extensions of 4 or 5 players.
They can absolutely fit D-Hop and they may like our OL more than we do.
Ezeudu apparently they are very high on as a high third, he also flashed and probably see him as a starter next year. Bred has surpassed expectations and have been an adequate if unspectacular starter for us. He probably is an upgrade at OC over Feliciano.
I also hope for another OL but I like Bred and Ezeudus movement/lateral agility. I think they can be at least adequate IOL for us. My big concern is the progression of Neal.
They must like our OL better than PFF's dead last ranking.
I hear you. No doubt they stunk last year much of the year...
Learning curve in new system, Neal's horrid rookie year, Feliciano stinking for most of year, not realizing Bredeson was actually half decent, injuries, all were big contributing factors.
This year its a bit different and in theory improved:
LT Thomas- top 5 in NFL
LG- Glowinski- average but adequate
OC - Bredeson - projects quite a bit better than Feliciano, EZ and Lemieux backups and will take snaps at OC
RG- Ezeudu high 3rd and flashed, excellent feet
RT 2nd year Neal, with Phillips as the backup plan
Right or wrong they probably think this is a strong enough group 2nd year in the system and with 2 starters no longer rookies but 2nd year players. They probably add somewhere in the draft here too.
3 guys changing positions on the OL doesn't seem like a good way to settle things down.
Quote:
Hopkins
Hodgins
Slayton
Campbell
Shepard
Wan'Dale
Barkley
Breida
Waller
Bellinger
Wow.
You’re forgetting that 4 to 6 of these men will be on injured reserve by week 4.
Good. That still leaves 4-6 healthy unlike every other year when we get hit by injuries…
Crazy.
Figured this was as good a post as any to agree and build on this premise. I have always said and speculated that some of the best kept secrets in championship building is to sign the older but productive guys in FA. Sure you get them for less years and sure there is risk that player fades out. In a perfect world you'd get the 25 year old in his prime player but perfect doesn't exist, especially in FA, and I still say the 25 year old is just as likely to get hurt as the cagey 30 year old and in some cases that cagey and savy player is less an injury risk than many think.
Again, not saying you want a bunch of old guys but go look at NFL history and you will see plenty of title winning teams that got there on the backs of older players. You most definitely can turn a good team into a great one by adding an older player and to suggest otherwise or to ignore that method is just....shortsighted.
That's a helluva playmaking trio.
Imagine saying "no thanks" to one of the best WR's in football. Lol.
@NFL_DovKleiman
Update: The #Cardinals will not be able to get their initial asking price of a "2nd round pick and another asset" in a trade for WR DeAndre Hopkins, per @AlbertBreer
He thinks it will be closer to the #Cowboys Brandin Cooks trade of a 5th and 6th round picks.
Quote:
Dov Kleiman
@NFL_DovKleiman
Update: The #Cardinals will not be able to get their initial asking price of a "2nd round pick and another asset" in a trade for WR DeAndre Hopkins, per @AlbertBreer
He thinks it will be closer to the #Cowboys Brandin Cooks trade of a 5th and 6th round picks.
I don't think the acquiring team will get that fortunate - the Cooks package - but anything close (say a 3rd/4th/5th combination) will be well worth getting involved in.
Daboll/Kafka would have a ton of playcalling options to choose from.
Waller
Hopkins
Hodgins
Parris
Slayton
Bellinger
WanDale/Shep recovering.
Locked and loaded
Quote:
who knows.
Quote:
Dov Kleiman
@NFL_DovKleiman
Update: The #Cardinals will not be able to get their initial asking price of a "2nd round pick and another asset" in a trade for WR DeAndre Hopkins, per @AlbertBreer
He thinks it will be closer to the #Cowboys Brandin Cooks trade of a 5th and 6th round picks.
I don't think the acquiring team will get that fortunate - the Cooks package - but anything close (say a 3rd/4th/5th combination) will be well worth getting involved in.
If Cooks was a 5 and 6. D-Hop feels like a 4th with 6-8M of his contract subsidized by Arizona or a salary rework by his acquiring team for a smaller cap hit.
Uh, except OBJ is far cheaper—both in terms of salary and draft capital to acquire. But, by all means, keep on pushing your narrative about how great of an idea it is to trade at least a prime pick and mortgage the future for an expensive wr the wrong side of 30 who’s missed time and had a recent PED suspension …
Quote:
If you are against Hopkins coming here you sure better not push OBJ. This idea that Hopkins is done is beyond stupid and completely inaccurate. He is WAY more a sure thing than MR King of hype and self promotion OBJ. Beckham, coming off his second ACL and who missed all of last year and most of the last three years is absolutely not they guy for this team..
Uh, except OBJ is far cheaper—both in terms of salary and draft capital to acquire. But, by all means, keep on pushing your narrative about how great of an idea it is to trade at least a prime pick and mortgage the future for an expensive wr the wrong side of 30 who’s missed time and had a recent PED suspension …
Remember when OBJ was OBJ. He was on a HOF trajectory and put up insane numbers. The last time he did that was 2016. Hopkins has been doing that his whole career and did it as recently as 2020 and was on pace in 2022 to do it again. OBJ is not that dude.
Quote:
In comment 16072345 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
If you are against Hopkins coming here you sure better not push OBJ. This idea that Hopkins is done is beyond stupid and completely inaccurate. He is WAY more a sure thing than MR King of hype and self promotion OBJ. Beckham, coming off his second ACL and who missed all of last year and most of the last three years is absolutely not they guy for this team..
Uh, except OBJ is far cheaper—both in terms of salary and draft capital to acquire. But, by all means, keep on pushing your narrative about how great of an idea it is to trade at least a prime pick and mortgage the future for an expensive wr the wrong side of 30 who’s missed time and had a recent PED suspension …
Remember when OBJ was OBJ. He was on a HOF trajectory and put up insane numbers. The last time he did that was 2016. Hopkins has been doing that his whole career and did it as recently as 2020 and was on pace in 2022 to do it again. OBJ is not that dude.
This is the main point here. OBJ is so much more injury prone than Hopkins.
Waller
Hopkins
Barkley
That's a very high end top 3 that can compete with any team's top 3 if healthy.
Quote:
who knows.
Quote:
Dov Kleiman
@NFL_DovKleiman
Update: The #Cardinals will not be able to get their initial asking price of a "2nd round pick and another asset" in a trade for WR DeAndre Hopkins, per @AlbertBreer
He thinks it will be closer to the #Cowboys Brandin Cooks trade of a 5th and 6th round picks.
I don't think the acquiring team will get that fortunate - the Cooks package - but anything close (say a 3rd/4th/5th combination) will be well worth getting involved in.
if i were arizona id be looking to pay down as much $ as possible and take whatever pick this year (2023) in return for a good conditional pick in 2024. i.e. maybe it's a day 3 but if he's still on the team's roster in 2024, it's a 2nd or 3rd. or if he makes a pro bowl.
if i were the nyg, that's the type of offer i'd also consider. you are only giving up a day 2 pick if he plays well enough to stick around next year.
I don't think the acquiring team will get that fortunate - the Cooks package - but anything close (say a 3rd/4th/5th combination) will be well worth getting involved in.
if i were arizona id be looking to pay down as much $ as possible and take whatever pick this year (2023) in return for a good conditional pick in 2024. i.e. maybe it's a day 3 but if he's still on the team's roster in 2024, it's a 2nd or 3rd. or if he makes a pro bowl.
if i were the nyg, that's the type of offer i'd also consider. you are only giving up a day 2 pick if he plays well enough to stick around next year.
That's a good idea. But Arizona has a first time GM - M. Ossenfort - and first time HC - J.Gannon. So, who the hell knows where they want to go and how sophisticated Ossenfort is at this sort of thing.