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The Day the decision that wrecked

TheBlueprintNC : 3/24/2023 12:52 pm
the Giants. https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-giants/post/_/id/54500/why-jerry-reese-and-the-giants-curiously-didnt-bolster-offensive-line-in-offseason
We need more OL  
TheBlueprintNC : 3/24/2023 12:54 pm : link
EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. -- General manager Jerry Reese and the New York Giants' front office concocted a plan this offseason that included bringing back an offensive line that struggled last season. It was a head-scratching plan, at best.

The Giants cited continuity and familiarity for a young group they were hoping would grow into something more reliable. They went all-in on Ereck Flowers and Bobby Hart as their left and right tackles, respectively, despite no significant evidence either would be a substantial player at the NFL level. It was a flawed line of thinking.
We now know he wanted to come  
TheBlueprintNC : 3/24/2023 12:55 pm : link
Through it all, they bypassed the big free agents, most notably left tackle Andrew Whitworth, who signed with the Los Angeles Rams. Reese and the Giants never showed any significant interest in the 35-year-old. All he's done is stabilize the Rams' offensive line and enter the conversation as the single-best offseason acquisition across the NFL.
Ruined Eli's prime -still won 2011  
TheBlueprintNC : 3/24/2023 12:57 pm : link
The Giants clearly weren't fully intent on being a younger football team. It's a curious approach regardless, with a soon-to-be 37-year-old quarterback who lacks mobility and needs maximum protection to be successful.

"Yeah, well, again, we want to be a younger football team," Reese said. "We looked at all different situations with all the offensive linemen available. We stayed with what we have." Reese said
The beginning of a decade of destruction  
TheBlueprintNC : 3/24/2023 12:57 pm : link
It was obvious in training camp the approach could be trouble. Flowers struggled badly. It became more evident as the season progressed. Hart injured his ankle and hasn't played well. He has subsequently been benched, and guard Justin Pugh has been forced to move out to tackle.
A Decade  
TheBlueprintNC : 3/24/2023 12:58 pm : link
The Giants' offense has been handicapped by the offensive line. They are 27th in rushing, despite more success in recent weeks, and have to scheme to get the ball out of Manning's hands quickly because of the inevitable pressure.
End of Coughlin -GoatCoach  
TheBlueprintNC : 3/24/2023 1:00 pm : link
But Reese remains all-in on Flowers and the line. He insisted Flowers was making progress and getting better. He emphatically stated Flowers takes too much blame and is not the reason for the Giants' 1-6 record. Reese said the blame should be on his shoulders, but then he denied overestimating what the Giants had with the offensive line entering this season, particularly at tackle.

They needed OL NEEDED... Terrible Franchise Destroying draft pick!
The team lost its soul  
TheBlueprintNC : 3/24/2023 1:02 pm : link
Basketball with hype on grass.. ODB fight with Coughlin, bye 2x SuperBowl winning HOF coach.
Enter the clowns  
TheBlueprintNC : 3/24/2023 1:05 pm : link
Eric had the pic that so perfectly summed up the situation.. Bravo - The Giants FINALLY got it right.. Rebuild that gritty tough composed culture. GIANTS. Shoen and Dabs (Coach of the Year) rookie yr. lol

Here we go.
The Giants  
David B. : 3/24/2023 1:10 pm : link
should be drafting one or two OLs every year. That's what the Eagles and Dallas do.

The Giants under Accorsi and Reese was draft "skill" positions and get your OLs in FA. That can work when you get it right with guys like O'Hara, McKenzie, etc. But it can also fail miserably.
BRUTAL  
FranknWeezer : 3/24/2023 1:10 pm : link
Basically said 'we looked a little bit for OL help and there wasn't much out there so we threw together a hodgepodge held together by school paste and popsicle sticks to protect our aging, immobile, pocket-dependent QB and whatddya know...it was a shitshow.'
A Giant Foundation  
TheBlueprintNC : 3/24/2023 1:12 pm : link
SChoen
Dabs
Wink D

DAVE GETTLEMAN terrible game plan didnt realize quickly enough how bad things were... ELI was fucked

Starts w DG -we can admit he is a huge reason this team is on the up while also admitting he suxxed.

Jones -Baller! DG
SQ -Tough SOB gamer, helps you win -easy and hard! DG
Thomas -LFT Allpro beast T DG
Dex -DL d DG
Mckinney -centerfield DG

He got the most important picks right.. OT DL QB RB leader type
HERE we GO. Patience and time  
TheBlueprintNC : 3/24/2023 1:15 pm : link
SChoen
Belly, FA, Draft Head Coach and Coaches and research.. got it all. Love the plan of building the WR room with quality and youth.. Thibs poss allpro player. Decision on the QB and RB so smart.
Coach of the Year!!!  
TheBlueprintNC : 3/24/2023 1:19 pm : link
This is to me the most exciting part.. Love him.. Tough, Smart, Decisive, Unafraid, Grounded, Communicator.. Love the phone calls on the side w team players.

He can do it all.. Most importantly is he can build a team... he knows what he wants and he knows how to use the players in the game plan.. and evidently the coaching group can game plan and carry it out.

Coach Dab poss HOF talent
Here we go.. First round Playoff Win  
TheBlueprintNC : 3/24/2023 1:26 pm : link
They sure Do.. That was huge that they got into the playoffs and won a round?! with that full of holes squad? Franchise QB, Franchise DL, Franchise OT, Franchise TE Belly, Franchise SS, Franchise DE, A Franchise is reborn. A potential yrly tournament team is being built and handled fiscally.

A dynasty is there with Gods graces. Got the QB The Field soldiers and Leader - build
The New BLUE  
TheBlueprintNC : 3/24/2023 1:34 pm : link
Dan Jones, Sayquon, Waller, Belly, a deeper more talented faster WR room, Thomas Neal deeper more talented Room, Dex, Leo, Thibs, New LB Bobby Okereke, Solid young Secondary and upcoming draft So CB WR and then whoever wants who OL LB etc

Great coaching staff
Dabs, Kafka back Wink and BCox back, new ST
RE: Ruined Eli's prime -still won 2011  
joeinpa : 3/24/2023 1:37 pm : link
In comment 16074630 TheBlueprintNC said:
Quote:
The Giants clearly weren't fully intent on being a younger football team. It's a curious approach regardless, with a soon-to-be 37-year-old quarterback who lacks mobility and needs maximum protection to be successful.

"Yeah, well, again, we want to be a younger football team," Reese said. "We looked at all different situations with all the offensive linemen available. We stayed with what we have." Reese said


Thinking they could make another run with Eli turned out to be a mistake, but one I was glad they made.

Doubling down on that belief year, picking Barkley at #2, was just dumb.

I still believe  
TrueBlue56 : 3/24/2023 1:45 pm : link
Something happened when Reese brought in Marc Ross and that changed the approach of the front office and minimizing Tom Coughlin in personnel.

Terms were used like Basketball on grass. The infatuation with athletic team captains still boggles my mind. Forget about short arms like Pugh, he's athletic. Even flowers had short arms.

The JPP of tight ends ugh!

Listening to Marc Ross talk about Eli manning on ESPN after he was fired told me all I needed to know. Jerry Reese at least had the good sense to not voice his opinions and thoughts after he was fired.
Gettleman and Joe Judge  
Gruber : 3/24/2023 1:46 pm : link
saying pre-season that they have more faith in the OLine than the fans, or something to that effect.
That didn't end well.
......  
CoughlinHandsonHips : 3/24/2023 1:50 pm : link
I think the real start of the demise was John Mara's "The offense is broken" comment.

It set into motion a series of half measures to try and fix things. If they felt that way, it should've been a whole new coaching staff change at a minimum.

Gilbride got scape goated - leading to Macadoo being forced onto Coughlin.

Let’s be clear though  
eric2425ny : 3/24/2023 1:52 pm : link
Reese tried to fix the line. His draft choices were just poor outside of Beatty who was a good player:

Pugh (1st round)
Flowers (1st round)
Richburg (high second round)
Mosley (4th round)
Brewer (4th round)
Beatty (2nd round)

RE: Let’s be clear though  
Racer : 3/24/2023 2:16 pm : link
In comment 16074696 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
Reese tried to fix the line. His draft choices were just poor outside of Beatty who was a good player:

Pugh (1st round)
Flowers (1st round)
Richburg (high second round)
Mosley (4th round)
Brewer (4th round)
Beatty (2nd round)


But recall he got nervous and was the first GM to hand an OT big dollars after the new CBA was negotiated. That same Will Beatty. So he ultimately fouled up that pick as well.
Reese hired his buddy Marc Ross  
BigBlueCane : 3/24/2023 2:29 pm : link
and refused to shit can him when it became obvious he was trash.

That's the key.
RE: We need more OL  
Chocco : 3/24/2023 2:44 pm : link
In comment 16074627 TheBlueprintNC said:
Quote:
EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. -- General manager Jerry Reese and the New York Giants' front office concocted a plan this offseason that included bringing back an offensive line that struggled last season. It was a head-scratching plan, at best.

The Giants cited continuity and familiarity for a young group they were hoping would grow into something more reliable. They went all-in on Ereck Flowers and Bobby Hart as their left and right tackles, respectively, despite no significant evidence either would be a substantial player at the NFL level. It was a flawed line of thinking.

And Gettleman made the same mistake 2 years ago. Hopefully history does not keep repeating itself
Great story; its just BS  
Colin@gbn : 3/24/2023 3:52 pm : link
I do get tired of repeating the same evidence every time this story comes up, but there is absolutely no evidence (other than the fact people keep repeating it) that the Giants troubles the past decade were in any way tied to the OL. Have made the case numerous times - and what's frustrating is that you can look this stuff up - but Eli, at least from a statistical perspective, was the same guy his final 5-6 years as he was in the 7-11 run. There were some ups and downs in both periods, but they were tied almost exclusively to whether he had good weapons or not. The fact is that he had the best three-year run of his career 2014-2016 before Odell got hurt. And his last year (2018) was actually the 4th most productive of his career.

There is no question that somewhere around 2012-2013 the Giants decided they wanted to change their offensive philosophy, but it was because by that time the rest of the league had figured out to defend a Coughlin offense.

And the fatal flaw here wasn't that they ignored the OL; its that they actually started with the OL - long story but they thought they needed more athletic OL if they were going to run 4-5 WR sets.

Needless to say it didn't work, but not because they didn't try. The biggest flaw in the whole process, other than the fact that other than Odell we had nothing at WR most of the decade. even more importantly, in focusing so much on the offense, and especially the OL, they let the defense wither away. Indeed, you want to point a finger at somebody point it at the defense which as ranked in the 30s most of the decade (and the one year they went out and bought the best D they could they won 11 games and went to the playoffs). In the end, the team that invented the phrase 'you can't have enough pass rushers' did not select an ER with a 1st or 2nd round pick for 11 years.
RE: Great story; its just BS  
TheBlueprintNC : 3/24/2023 4:12 pm : link
In comment 16074822 Colin@gbn said:
Quote:
I do get tired of repeating the same evidence every time this story comes up, but there is absolutely no evidence (other than the fact people keep repeating it) that the Giants troubles the past decade were in any way tied to the OL. Have made the case numerous times - and what's frustrating is that you can look this stuff up - but Eli, at least from a statistical perspective, was the same guy his final 5-6 years as he was in the 7-11 run. There were some ups and downs in both periods, but they were tied almost exclusively to whether he had good weapons or not. The fact is that he had the best three-year run of his career 2014-2016 before Odell got hurt. And his last year (2018) was actually the 4th most productive of his career.

There is no question that somewhere around 2012-2013 the Giants decided they wanted to change their offensive philosophy, but it was because by that time the rest of the league had figured out to defend a Coughlin offense.

And the fatal flaw here wasn't that they ignored the OL; its that they actually started with the OL - long story but they thought they needed more athletic OL if they were going to run 4-5 WR sets.

Needless to say it didn't work, but not because they didn't try. The biggest flaw in the whole process, other than the fact that other than Odell we had nothing at WR most of the decade. even more importantly, in focusing so much on the offense, and especially the OL, they let the defense wither away. Indeed, you want to point a finger at somebody point it at the defense which as ranked in the 30s most of the decade (and the one year they went out and bought the best D they could they won 11 games and went to the playoffs). In the end, the team that invented the phrase 'you can't have enough pass rushers' did not select an ER with a 1st or 2nd round pick for 11 years.


My point was the GM made very bad decisions in the draft and FA and they eroded a champion team -the change to more uptempo oriented team with what they had was stupid.
RE: I still believe  
TheBlueprintNC : 3/24/2023 4:15 pm : link
In comment 16074688 TrueBlue56 said:
Quote:
Something happened when Reese brought in Marc Ross and that changed the approach of the front office and minimizing Tom Coughlin in personnel.

Terms were used like Basketball on grass. The infatuation with athletic team captains still boggles my mind. Forget about short arms like Pugh, he's athletic. Even flowers had short arms.

Yep they bought into the hype game plan -Coughlin he liked a put pressure on Team w D and O.

The JPP of tight ends ugh!

Listening to Marc Ross talk about Eli manning on ESPN after he was fired told me all I needed to know. Jerry Reese at least had the good sense to not voice his opinions and thoughts after he was fired.
RE: Let’s be clear though  
TheBlueprintNC : 3/24/2023 4:16 pm : link
In comment 16074696 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
Reese tried to fix the line. His draft choices were just poor outside of Beatty who was a good player:

Pugh (1st round)
Flowers (1st round)
Richburg (high second round)
Mosley (4th round)
Brewer (4th round)
Beatty (2nd round)


They were all terrible additions - go look at what was available.. Reeeach blew it
RE: RE: Let’s be clear though  
TheBlueprintNC : 3/24/2023 4:17 pm : link
In comment 16074729 Racer said:
Quote:
In comment 16074696 eric2425ny said:


Quote:


Reese tried to fix the line. His draft choices were just poor outside of Beatty who was a good player:

Pugh (1st round)
Flowers (1st round)
Richburg (high second round)
Mosley (4th round)
Brewer (4th round)
Beatty (2nd round)




But recall he got nervous and was the first GM to hand an OT big dollars after the new CBA was negotiated. That same Will Beatty. So he ultimately fouled up that pick as well.


Great point
RE: Reese hired his buddy Marc Ross  
TheBlueprintNC : 3/24/2023 4:18 pm : link
In comment 16074745 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
and refused to shit can him when it became obvious he was trash.

That's the key.


Didnt help thats for sure. But Reese was a good scout.
RE: Great story; its just BS  
TheBlueprintNC : 3/24/2023 4:26 pm : link
In comment 16074822 Colin@gbn said:
Quote:
I do get tired of repeating the same evidence every time this story comes up, but there is absolutely no evidence (other than the fact people keep repeating it) that the Giants troubles the past decade were in any way tied to the OL. Have made the case numerous times - and what's frustrating is that you can look this stuff up - but Eli, at least from a statistical perspective, was the same guy his final 5-6 years as he was in the 7-11 run. There were some ups and downs in both periods, but they were tied almost exclusively to whether he had good weapons or not. The fact is that he had the best three-year run of his career 2014-2016 before Odell got hurt. And his last year (2018) was actually the 4th most productive of his career.

There is no question that somewhere around 2012-2013 the Giants decided they wanted to change their offensive philosophy, but it was because by that time the rest of the league had figured out to defend a Coughlin offense.


Sorry -they just won another Superbowl with a Coughlin Offense -get Keep game close and let Eli win it. But Eli got hot with a few rcvrs.

Quote:
And the fatal flaw here wasn't that they ignored the OL; its that they actually started with the OL - long story but they thought they needed more athletic OL if they were going to run 4-5 WR sets.


This wasn't necessary - Coughlin knew had a money QB. Give him time... just give him time. And keep building the D

Quote:
Needless to say it didn't work, but not because they didn't try. The biggest flaw in the whole process, other than the fact that other than Odell we had nothing at WR most of the decade. even more importantly, in focusing so much on the offense, and especially the OL, they let the defense wither away. Indeed, you want to point a finger at somebody point it at the defense which as ranked in the 30s most of the decade (and the one year they went out and bought the best D they could they won 11 games and went to the playoffs).


Very true

Quote:
In the end, the team that invented the phrase 'you can't have enough pass rushers' did not select an ER with a 1st or 2nd round pick for 11 years.


AMEN -Bad GM
RE: The Giants  
k2tampa : 3/24/2023 4:29 pm : link
In comment 16074652 David B. said:
Quote:
should be drafting one or two OLs every year. That's what the Eagles and Dallas do.

The Giants under Accorsi and Reese was draft "skill" positions and get your OLs in FA. That can work when you get it right with guys like O'Hara, McKenzie, etc. But it can also fail miserably.


In the last 4 drafts the Eagles picked 5 OL, the Cowboys 6, and the Giants picked 7. The problem has not been drafting linemen, it's been who they draft and whether the coaches could develop them.
It all started with the David Wilson pick  
Paulie Walnuts : 3/24/2023 4:30 pm : link
Team needed starting tackles not a gadget back ps Ross sucked
RE: Let’s be clear though  
sb from NYT Forum : 3/24/2023 4:31 pm : link
In comment 16074696 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
Reese tried to fix the line. His draft choices were just poor outside of Beatty who was a good player:

Pugh (1st round)
Flowers (1st round)
Richburg (high second round)
Mosley (4th round)
Brewer (4th round)
Beatty (2nd round)


I have a lot of issues with this post. It's like giving credit to an arson for trying to put out the fire. The decline of the OL was obvious from as early as 2011, yet he didn't draft OL until desperation time, and reached for Pugh in the 1st Round.

Also, 6 picks is simply not enough when the OL is terrible. You draft and draft and draft some more until its fixed.

Oh, and Beatty was not a good player. He had one good season on his first contract, Reese gave him a big contract and he never played hard again.
It  
AcidTest : 3/24/2023 4:44 pm : link
doesn't matter what your team-building philosophy is, it won't work if you mismanage the draft and FA, which despite a few successes, Reese and DG consistently did.

Reese and DG drafted and signed a ton of OL who couldn't play. DG did the same with DBs. After all those draft picks DG spent on CBs, our two starters were FAs, Bradberry and Jackson.

No organization can succeed it it doesn't attract and retain good talent.
RE: It  
LauderdaleMatty : 3/25/2023 9:47 am : link
In comment 16074864 AcidTest said:
Quote:
doesn't matter what your team-building philosophy is, it won't work if you mismanage the draft and FA, which despite a few successes, Reese and DG consistently did.

Reese and DG drafted and signed a ton of OL who couldn't play. DG did the same with DBs. After all those draft picks DG spent on CBs, our two starters were FAs, Bradberry and Jackson.

No organization can succeed it it doesn't attract and retain good talent.


This. Though I’d suggest Reese and DG got too position centric. Passing up better players for players at their “skill positions” who just weren’t nearly as good. Reese started it. He got more rope due to his great scouting work and the early success.
RE: RE: RE: Let’s be clear though  
Racer : 3/25/2023 11:07 am : link
In comment 16074841 TheBlueprintNC said:
Quote:
In comment 16074729 Racer said:


Quote:


In comment 16074696 eric2425ny said:


Quote:


Reese tried to fix the line. His draft choices were just poor outside of Beatty who was a good player:

Pugh (1st round)
Flowers (1st round)
Richburg (high second round)
Mosley (4th round)
Brewer (4th round)
Beatty (2nd round)




But recall he got nervous and was the first GM to hand an OT big dollars after the new CBA was negotiated. That same Will Beatty. So he ultimately fouled up that pick as well.



Great point


Always been a sore spot for me, and it’s the kind of milestone that perpetuates the “NYG has always overvalued their own”.
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