Particularly on Offense.
I keep thinking about something Colin at great Blue Northern keeps at over the years, that it's all about getting wide receiver weapons, and that with the WR threats the Oline becomes better, and he's made compelling arguments about it. When I look at KC's roster, their best wide receiver last year was Juju Smith-Shuster
78 Receptions for 933 yds Av 12 yds/catch and 3 TDs
behind him was:
WR Marquez Valdes-Scantling 4.54/40 had
42 Receptions for 687 yds Av 16.4 yds/catch and 2 TDS
WR Skyy Moore 4.41/40 had
22 Receptions for 250 yds Av 11.4 yds/catch and 0 TDs
WR Justin Watson 4.42/40
15 Receptions for 315 yds Av 21 yds/catch and 2 TDs
WR Kadarius Toney 4.39/40
14 Receptions for 171 yds Av 12.2 yds/catch and 2 TDs
Then there is
TE Travis Kelce 4.61/40 he had
110 Receptions for 1338 yds Av 12.2 yds/catch and 12 TDs
RB Jerick McKinnon 4.41/40 had
56 Receptions for 512 Yds Av 9.1 yds/catch and 9 TDs
RB Clyde Edwards-Helaire 4.6/40 had
17 Receptions for 151 Yds Av 8.9 yds/catch and 3 TDs
RB Isiah Pacheco 4.37/40 had
13 Receptions for 130 Yds Av 10 yds/catch and 0 TDs
TE Noah Gray had a TD and 28 receptions
TE Jody Fortson had 2 TDs and 9 receptions
TE Blake Bell had 1 TD and 2 receptions
Their Offensive line was very workman like
LT Orlando Brown Jr (1133 Snaps 9 Penalties 4 Sacks Allowed),
LG Joe Thuney (999 Snaps 2 Penalties 1 Sack Allowed),
C Creed Humpfry (1138 Snaps 4 penalties 0 Sacks Allowed),
RG Trey Smith (1093 Snaps 6 Penalties 2 Sacks Allowed),
RT Andrew Wylie (1093 Snaps 8 Penalties 9 Sacks Allowed)
They had 4 Main weapons - the QB Patrick Mahomes, TE Travis Kelce, WR Juju Smith-Shuster and RB Jerick McKinnon
the things that stands out is they had:
- A Top Producing Speedy TE with role player TEs behind him
- 1 Main Threat at WR with less production than their star TE and with speedy depth behind him and production throughout the WR roster
- A Fairly Stable Oline
- and A Versatile Fast Multi Threat RB also with speedy depth behind him
PP - that's too easy to say and shrug off. I'm not saying Jones is on the same level as Mahomes, but there are some similarities can be drawn between them.
- Obviously Mahomes is a proven top 2 if not top one QB, but as a multi-pronged threat, throwing and running, Jones is showing some of that ability, and he has not had the speedy depth around him that Mahomes has had
Ron. If you look at the additions at TE and WR this off season so far, those groups are beginning to look a lot like KC's group. Our RB group looks somewhat similar.
The Oline is admittedly not as stable and productive -- but if Colin's theory is correct, improvements at the skill positions is going to help improve the Oline. Likely there will still be additions this off-season to the Oline but it is a WiP.
That's clearly not going to happen, and I'm not saying Jones is Mahomes, but look at what's going on with the WR corps and TE Room, that is starting to look like KC's group
Sort of like the original, but missing enough key elements that makes it very different and not as good.
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ba dum dum (cymbal)
PP - that's too easy to say and shrug off. I'm not saying Jones is on the same level as Mahomes, but there are some similarities can be drawn between them.
- Obviously Mahomes is a proven top 2 if not top one QB, but as a multi-pronged threat, throwing and running, Jones is showing some of that ability, and he has not had the speedy depth around him that Mahomes has had
But for any of that to matter they have to fix the IOL
The purpose is, I would guess, have an upscale passing attack.
That's why any center they pick would have to be strong as a pass protector.
We saw what happened when they truly had a bad OL against Tampa and got absolutely shellacked. They had Hill, Kelce, and Edwards-Helaire for that game.
1. Jones has to stay healthy and build on last year
2.The likely starting high draft picks becoming 2nd year players have to stay healthy and improve (Ezeudu at LG and Neal at RT)
3. Waller has to be healthy. If so he still looks to be explosive and can still be a top 5 TE.
4. The WR corps needs to step up. With Hodgins for a full year and Campbell if he stays healhty and a high draft pock (probaly round 1 , if not round 2) it can probably do that.
Even with all these things we won't quite be the Chiefs bit we would be a pretty good to very, very good offense. We have Barkley too who adds an elite dynamic they don't have.
They make KC, period.
All the breakdown of personal is useless.
Both Reid and Mahomes at their positions will go down as top 10 if not higher all time.
Because the Giants got Waller, and he's the most accomplished receiver and the presumptive de facto #1, you can draw a comparison.
I don't get the rest of it.
Saquon is the driving force behind the Giants' offense. Everything plays off of the threat of Saquon.
With the Chiefs, it's all about Mahomes.
DJ runs and Mahomes can run. DJ passes and Mahomes can pass. But what Mahomes does off-script, the creativity in making some of his passes while on the move, or his lateral agility and ability to make guys miss to still buy time WHILE HIS EYES are still downfield, looking to primarily throw the ball...these are not traits that I would say DJ has demonstrated to this point.
We're talking here about the similarities between the skill players on both rosters -- and there are starting to be numerous similarities that can be identified and quantified
Because the Giants got Waller, and he's the most accomplished receiver and the presumptive de facto #1, you can draw a comparison.
okay yes that's one
Saquon is the driving force behind the Giants' offense. Everything plays off of the threat of Saquon.
If you look at the speed and competency depth on the wide receiver squads the Giants speed and skill wise is starting to look like the Chiefs WR room
The threat of Saquon is now: the threat of a big play TE, a group of speedy receivers and a multiprong weapon in Saquon
With the Chiefs, it's all about Mahomes.
DJ runs and Mahomes can run. DJ passes and Mahomes can pass.
Yes exactly -- and Jones was a top QB running threat last year and had an improving arc as a passer
But what Mahomes does off-script, the creativity in making some of his passes while on the move, or his lateral agility and ability to make guys miss to still buy time WHILE HIS EYES are still downfield, looking to primarily throw the ball...these are not traits that I would say DJ has demonstrated to this point.
I agree with this -- but does Mahomes skill players help him with this?
They make KC, period.
All the breakdown of personal is useless.
Both Reid and Mahomes at their positions will go down as top 10 if not higher all time.
Daboll is not at Reid's level of accomplishment yet -- but he sure shows a lot of promise
Kelce is a total difference maker. Seemed like every time I saw a game the announcers commented on how teams know its coming but can't stop it. This also helps open things up for the other skill guys.
I also think the OL got a lot better as the season played out. In the playoffs they ran for over 140 in the divisional game and 160 in the SB.
The running games are different. Jones had twice the rushing attempts as Mahomes. KC could really run between the tackles against good fronts. Giants struggled here.
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Reid and Mahomes.
They make KC, period.
All the breakdown of personal is useless.
Both Reid and Mahomes at their positions will go down as top 10 if not higher all time.
Daboll is not at Reid's level of accomplishment yet -- but he sure shows a lot of promise
I would say if KC got rid of the other 52 and replaced them with a different 52 that they would have success. Maybe not five consecutive championship games or two SB victories. But with Reid and Mahomes they would still be a contender every year.
I consider Reid to be on par with Belichek as the best coach in the NFL. Look at the consistency that Philadelphia and now KC have had under him.
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In comment 16075948 PatersonPlank said:
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ba dum dum (cymbal)
PP - that's too easy to say and shrug off. I'm not saying Jones is on the same level as Mahomes, but there are some similarities can be drawn between them.
- Obviously Mahomes is a proven top 2 if not top one QB, but as a multi-pronged threat, throwing and running, Jones is showing some of that ability, and he has not had the speedy depth around him that Mahomes has had
They are similar in that they are both right handed. That's were the the similarity ends. Judge, I would direct you to one of the many Dan Jones adoration threads.
He s not Mahomes, but he s not what you think he is either
Kelce is a total difference maker. Seemed like every time I saw a game the announcers commented on how teams know its coming but can't stop it. This also helps open things up for the other skill guys.
I also think the OL got a lot better as the season played out. In the playoffs they ran for over 140 in the divisional game and 160 in the SB.
The running games are different. Jones had twice the rushing attempts as Mahomes. KC could really run between the tackles against good fronts. Giants struggled here.
Yes -- this is true -- I see the Oline as a work in progress. Neal has only shown glimpses and lot of growing pains. There is no steady presence on the interior of the Oline yet, and I agree that the Giants struggled against good fronts. But I am noting that with the additions already made this off season, that the direction the Giants seem to be going is down the same path.
I have always been in favor of the two TE offense.
On paper - this offensive roster is better than last year's for sure...injuries are the great equalizer and many of the guys that the Giants seem to have on the roster in key spots aren't exactly "dependable".
Truthfully, the Giants are better than the Chiefs in some ways that haven't, in recent history, had a ton of correlation with winning; and the Giants are worse than the Chiefs in some ways that have, in recent history, had significant correlation with winning.
So there's room to look at the roster side-by-side and find reasons for excitement with the Giants, but realistically the Giants are still *probably not* as good as the Chiefs.
I don't think it was stated or implied that the Giants are as good as the Chiefs
Truthfully, the Giants are better than the Chiefs in some ways that haven't, in recent history, had a ton of correlation with winning; and the Giants are worse than the Chiefs in some ways that have, in recent history, had significant correlation with winning.
There is not a QB in the league on his level. I thought maybe Josh A but he became a turnover machine. Joe B hasn’t won the big one. No one else.
So there's room to look at the roster side-by-side and find reasons for excitement with the Giants, but realistically the Giants are still *probably not* as good as the Chiefs.
I don’t even understand this thread.
One offense played the Eagles and the entire second half didn’t have to punt. A few weeks before, the other offense played the Eagles and was humiliated in a 38-7 loss.
Yeah, the similarities.
I don’t even understand this thread.
One offense played the Eagles and the entire second half didn’t have to punt. A few weeks before, the other offense played the Eagles and was humiliated in a 38-7 loss.
Yeah, the similarities.
I have no argument with this except to address the comprehension that you express the lack of. The roster is in the process of reconstruction right now. The past season is over. I am analyzing/looking at/ the changes that have been made so far.
Aside from that comment, this thread is another chance to experience the pain of puzzling about why Tre Smith somehow is not on our roster. Inexplicable.
Aside from that comment, this thread is another chance to experience the pain of puzzling about why Tre Smith somehow is not on our roster. Inexplicable.
there you go -- I knew you could do it
I think that was the case early on in the season, and the Giants started taking the training wheels off as the receiver position stabilized down the stretch. He was our most dangerous skill position player from a talent standpoint, I’d definitely agree with that…but the offense seemed to be less saquon-centric down the stretch. I have not fact checked that, but that was my impression without researching it.
If you are speaking of the increased use(and success) or play action passing in the Giants offense I do know that is something the Giants improved on a year ago, but I’m not sure you can entirely credit Saquon for that.
I still think that there is room for growth for Barkley and how he is used by Giants. The one thing I’d still love to see more of is more routes from SB that get him beyond the LOS, instead of behind it…to get him more open space. They might require improved stability in pass pro, and maybe that’s why he wasn’t used in that capacity more as he needed to be a safety valve for Jones but to my his ADOT going up would be advantageous to the Giants offense and more akin to how Kamara/McCaffery have been deployed.
You referenced him in your OP. I don't need to give him any more digital ink than that.
I don't think it was stated or implied that the Giants are as good as the Chiefs
In fairness, if you're trying to look toward 2023 exclusively and not lean on 2022, I would offer that Pacheco should probably be KC's lead back in your exercise, not McKinnon. Regardless, I think the only really significant change from 2022 to 2023 thus far, exclusive to the offensive side of the ball, is the Giants adding Waller (which obviously makes this an interesting comparison in the first place, otherwise there isn't much similarity at all beyond Kafka).
The Giants have made that mistake way too often in the recent past.
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which resident expect stated "that DJ is "probably not" as good as Mahomes"
You referenced him in your OP. I don't need to give him any more digital ink than that.
You may need to go back and re-read what I wrote - because I see zero references to him in my OP
Agreed.
I agree with this, but i also think the Giants have two ascending pieces at tackle in Thomas and Neal (though Neal is unproven yet) that are/will be solid. I think they have a lot to prove in the interior as of yet.
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is night and day better than the Giants right now. Not even close.
I agree with this, but i also think the Giants have two ascending pieces at tackle in Thomas and Neal (though Neal is unproven yet) that are/will be solid. I think they have a lot to prove in the interior as of yet.
True, I think Neal will be fine. But I am very worried about the interior (Center specifically)
TALENTWISE: we’re still building that level, especially since admittedly , we were significantly dearth of talent before JS and DB.
The giants RB is far superior but the Chiefs QB, TE and OL make the RB portion of their Offense pretty good. If same RB were on Giants it would be subpar to poor.
I think that was the case early on in the season, and the Giants started taking the training wheels off as the receiver position stabilized down the stretch. He was our most dangerous skill position player from a talent standpoint, I’d definitely agree with that…but the offense seemed to be less saquon-centric down the stretch. I have not fact checked that, but that was my impression without researching it.
If you are speaking of the increased use(and success) or play action passing in the Giants offense I do know that is something the Giants improved on a year ago, but I’m not sure you can entirely credit Saquon for that.
I still think that there is room for growth for Barkley and how he is used by Giants. The one thing I’d still love to see more of is more routes from SB that get him beyond the LOS, instead of behind it…to get him more open space. They might require improved stability in pass pro, and maybe that’s why he wasn’t used in that capacity more as he needed to be a safety valve for Jones but to my his ADOT going up would be advantageous to the Giants offense and more akin to how Kamara/McCaffery have been deployed.
I personally think Barkley was instrumental in the improvement, even though he wasn't touching the ball as much. As the rest of the offense improved, Barkley was used as a decoy more. Since the defenses gameplanned to stop Barkley as job #1, this opened holes of Jones runs and a lot of those quick slants off the ball fakes to Barkley. So I think the offense still revolved around Barkley, just in a different way.
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In comment 16076099 gidiefor said:
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which resident expect stated "that DJ is "probably not" as good as Mahomes"
You referenced him in your OP. I don't need to give him any more digital ink than that.
You may need to go back and re-read what I wrote - because I see zero references to him in my OP
Am I taking crazy pills? You asked which resident "expert" was the one who said that DJ is "probably not" as good as Mahomes, and I told you that it's the expert you referenced in your OP.
Unless my computer is rendering your original post differently than you typed it, the resident expert who made that ludicrous claim is the one you referenced in the first sentence of the first full paragraph of your original post according to the way that my computer presents it on my end. My apologies if those aren't the same words you wrote.
While Saquon is the best RB on either team, the Giants do not have a change of pace RB like Pacheco.
And of course, the difference in olines is substantial. The Giants have a long way to go.
Will a better WR room, help the oline? It could. It could mean the ILB and safeties need to play farther off the LoS. The one thing that will help the oline is better IOL players.
Am I taking crazy pills? You asked which resident "expert" was the one who said that DJ is "probably not" as good as Mahomes, and I told you that it's the expert you referenced in your OP.
Unless my computer is rendering your original post differently than you typed it, the resident expert who made that ludicrous claim is the one you referenced in the first sentence of the first full paragraph of your original post according to the way that my computer presents it on my end. My apologies if those aren't the same words you wrote.
OK. I see who you are referencing now. I guess context is important, because nothing was said about Jones there.