Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
Giants continue to do homework on the draft’s top receivers. This time GM Joe Schoen and coach Brian Daboll had dinner last night with WR Quentin Johnston ahead of TCU’s Pro Day on Thursday, per source.
Johnston’s in the running to be the first WR selected in this year’s draft.
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QJ may be the first WR taken or the 3rd or 4th depending on whose mock you are looking at. 3rd should be around 25.
+1. Although JSN will almost certainly be long gone by #25, the Giants don't know which of the other WRs will still be available. So they have to talk to all of them. I don't think they trade more than a three to move up for anyone, Including a WR.
It never goes away. Been here since the beginning in '95, it never. Goes. Away.
Fill biggest perceived hole or else!
But it is worth reading if any have not seen it.
Its from a former NFL scout that has some real questions about Quentin Johnson in Round 1
Probably most of us watched the Georgia/TCU game. Hard not remember what Georgia did to Johnson that night.
1 catch for 3 yards. A complete non factor. Link - ( New Window )
That scouting report is actually more worrisome for comments not related to the last BCS championship game. That’s one game. But QJ was invisible against some second rate teams throughout his career.
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In comment 16078331 eric2425ny said:
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I wouldn’t even mind a trade up if they don’t have to give up anything crazy. If he didn’t have some drop issues in college he’d probably be a top 5 pick.
Pretty funny. Drop issues "in college"? You seem to think they are going to disappear in the pros. He catches with his body. Like Slayton and Robinson. Watch his highlight videos. He uses his body on virtually every catch.
Without the drop issues in college he would be a top 5 pick? Every year there are probably 10 WRs who would be a top 5 pick if they could catch the ball consistently. It's kind of a key part of playing the position.
I wouldn't mind him if the draft falls that way. But I worry he becomes the WR version of Evan Engram. Great athlete who tantalizes you with glimpses of greatness with a spattering of balls bouncing off his hands, some into the waiting arms of DBS. No way do I think they should trade up for him.
And while the crossing route against Michigan was fantastic, it was more than wiped out by the 1 catch for zero yards performance against Georgia.
It seemed Engram just ran in a straight line fast. QJ definitely is a better all around athlete, his explosion numbers were elite and looks it on tape. But yeah the hands...
Yep, Engram wasn't as good an athlete, but he was a TE. His athletic profile for tight ends compares favorably to Johnston's for receivers. Engram might even be more of an outliers when you look at it that way.
That's a very solid analysis on QJ. Well done.
I see a WR prospect with too many question marks to validate a day one investment. His value is better qualified as a late day two prospect.
Probably most of us watched the Georgia/TCU game. Hard not remember what Georgia did to Johnson that night.
1 catch for 3 yards. A complete non factor. Link - ( New Window )
I have to admit I missed this game but Georgia shuts down a lot of guys who end up being pretty good. There were quite a few people knocking Hutchinson in the draft last year because he wasn't a factor against them, but he ended being Rookie of the Year.
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That some people think the only option is picking at 25.
It never goes away. Been here since the beginning in '95, it never. Goes. Away.
Fill biggest perceived hole or else!
putting aside that 2020 was a shortened season where everyone's routine was disrupted and changed.
Sonny Dykes, the coach who led TCU to the NC game, took over in 2021 and has only coached there for one year in 2022.
Meachem, the previous TCU OC, coached under Gary Patterson who was more of a defensive guy.
And yes Georgia got aggressive with him. they could do so b/c they VASTLY out-talented TCU. There are Horned Frogs starters who struggle to crack to the 2nd string at Georgia, there's that big of a talent difference.
Not to mention Georgia having way more coaches and "analysts" who help the players on and off the field then TCU could ever dream of affording.
What a shit article.
Sure, you just have to temper expectations as to how far up. I could see NYG trading up a handful of spots in return for their #3 pick. I wouldn't expect them to move up into the top 15.
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this article previously.
Probably most of us watched the Georgia/TCU game. Hard not remember what Georgia did to Johnson that night.
1 catch for 3 yards. A complete non factor. Link - ( New Window )
I have to admit I missed this game but Georgia shuts down a lot of guys who end up being pretty good. There were quite a few people knocking Hutchinson in the draft last year because he wasn't a factor against them, but he ended being Rookie of the Year.
I agree, this is a silly argument. Georgia dominated TCU at every position. One player, who is dependent on others to get the ball, isn't playing 1 on 11 vs Georgia.
I really don't get the QJ bashing, he's a damn good WR who could/should be a major player in the NFL. He's got size, speed, and has shown great college productivity (So he's not a combine stats type guy). I like him a lot. Sure, there seems to be a core 3-4 Wrs in this group so who knows who will be the best, but I like QJ and TSN the best.
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...I agree, but can you move up in RD1 without giving up a 1 or 2?
Sure, you just have to temper expectations as to how far up. I could see NYG trading up a handful of spots in return for their #3 pick. I wouldn't expect them to move up into the top 15.
1 and 3 gets them to #20...according to the newest chart.
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In comment 16078637 Brown_Hornet said:
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...I agree, but can you move up in RD1 without giving up a 1 or 2?
Sure, you just have to temper expectations as to how far up. I could see NYG trading up a handful of spots in return for their #3 pick. I wouldn't expect them to move up into the top 15.
1 and 3 gets them to #20...according to the newest chart.
Jones needs quick receivers who can get separation as opposed to WRs like Johnston who is more of a contested catch WR.
What's frustrating is not that people disagree; the whole point is to get a discussion going, but its that on this site the vast of posters almost reflexively leap to their personal default positions and literally start screaming 'no, no, no the Giants draft the same way I do. They're going to sit their and see who's left at 25 and take the BPA.
And the one thing I can say with almost certainty is that NFL teams, and especially the Giants, don't draft that way. In fact, teams go into the draft with one of two basic approaches. Either they are going to have a short list of players they really like. We could even surmise if that's what the Giants were doing this year that their short list might include players like DEs Keion White or Ade Adebawore, WR Flowers, CB Banks, LB Simpson, and even G Torrence. And they would have them ranked in order of preference.
The other way is to go into the draft targeting a specific position. In fact the Giants have done that roughly half the time in the past couple of decades (2001 - CB, 2003 - DL, 2007 - DB, 2009- WR, 2014 - WR or OL; 2015 - OT, 2018 - QB, 2020 - OT, although sometimes like 2018 they didn't necessarily get what they were looking for.)
And only a blind person who doesn't want to see what's in front of him is not going to accept that the Giants are pretty all over WR this year.
Why: well let's review. The Giants have a #1 QB, they have a #1 RB; they have a pair of top 10 OTs; they've got a DL with three #1s and a #2, they have a #1 safety; heck they even have a #1 CB. The one position they do not have a #1 guy is at WR. And they can look around the NFL and see that every really good team has a #1 receiver; in fact, all the really good teams have 2-3 really good receivers. They can also look around the league and see the literally transformative impact getting a top WR had in places like Buffalo, Cincinnati and Philly. Then there's the Giants own recent history. We won the 7/11 Super Bowls largely on the back of a good QB (playing the best football of his life) throwing to a pair of elite receivers groups (Plax, Toomer and Smith in 07 and Nicks, Cruz and Manninghan in 11).
But another than all that who the fuck really needs an elite receiver?
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In comment 16078637 Brown_Hornet said:
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...I agree, but can you move up in RD1 without giving up a 1 or 2?
Sure, you just have to temper expectations as to how far up. I could see NYG trading up a handful of spots in return for their #3 pick. I wouldn't expect them to move up into the top 15.
1 and 3 gets them to #20...according to the newest chart.
Ouch, that sounds awfully new ... and prohibitive.
Link - ( New Window )
@JimNagy_SB
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1h
Got texts from three different scouts who were at TCU pro-day and all had projected first round WR Quentin Johnston in 4.51-4.54 range on his two 40-yd runs.
Johnston did not run at Combine.
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I know people were gushing over Johnson’s explosion at the drills at the combine but to me he doesn’t look like this incredible athlete when he’s actually on the field.
Then there are the drops. Did you know Johnson dropped two straight long passes in the drills at the Pro Day? No DBs, empty field.
Can I make the audacious suggestion that Schoen and Daboll were interviewing QJ as a possibility in the 2nd rd? I just don’t see how this guy is a first rounder.
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In comment 16078642 JonC said:
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In comment 16078637 Brown_Hornet said:
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...I agree, but can you move up in RD1 without giving up a 1 or 2?
Sure, you just have to temper expectations as to how far up. I could see NYG trading up a handful of spots in return for their #3 pick. I wouldn't expect them to move up into the top 15.
1 and 3 gets them to #20...according to the newest chart.
Ouch, that sounds awfully new ... and prohibitive.
Gambling with a Day 2 pick to move up for a marginally higher-evaluated WR (or quite possibly even the same WR that would be available at 25) makes little sense.
If the spreads in Schoen's evaluations are that wide on receivers then maybe you can support the move but that it still screams desperation. And that usually leads to bad business decisions.
I don't think he's the perfect fit for Daboll's offense though. But obviously, they like him.
What's frustrating is not that people disagree; the whole point is to get a discussion going, but its that on this site the vast of posters almost reflexively leap to their personal default positions and literally start screaming 'no, no, no the Giants draft the same way I do. They're going to sit their and see who's left at 25 and take the BPA.
And the one thing I can say with almost certainty is that NFL teams, and especially the Giants, don't draft that way. In fact, teams go into the draft with one of two basic approaches. Either they are going to have a short list of players they really like. We could even surmise if that's what the Giants were doing this year that their short list might include players like DEs Keion White or Ade Adebawore, WR Flowers, CB Banks, LB Simpson, and even G Torrence. And they would have them ranked in order of preference.
The other way is to go into the draft targeting a specific position. In fact the Giants have done that roughly half the time in the past couple of decades (2001 - CB, 2003 - DL, 2007 - DB, 2009- WR, 2014 - WR or OL; 2015 - OT, 2018 - QB, 2020 - OT, although sometimes like 2018 they didn't necessarily get what they were looking for.)
And only a blind person who doesn't want to see what's in front of him is not going to accept that the Giants are pretty all over WR this year.
Why: well let's review. The Giants have a #1 QB, they have a #1 RB; they have a pair of top 10 OTs; they've got a DL with three #1s and a #2, they have a #1 safety; heck they even have a #1 CB. The one position they do not have a #1 guy is at WR. And they can look around the NFL and see that every really good team has a #1 receiver; in fact, all the really good teams have 2-3 really good receivers. They can also look around the league and see the literally transformative impact getting a top WR had in places like Buffalo, Cincinnati and Philly. Then there's the Giants own recent history. We won the 7/11 Super Bowls largely on the back of a good QB (playing the best football of his life) throwing to a pair of elite receivers groups (Plax, Toomer and Smith in 07 and Nicks, Cruz and Manninghan in 11).
But another than all that who the fuck really needs an elite receiver?
I assume this rant is largely directed at me, especially this part:
Except I never said that. What I said is that I would be very surprised if the Giants trade more than a three to move up for any WR, but that I would be OK if they did so. I also said that having to trade anything more would prompt then to instead stay at #25 and take the BPA, whether that is a WR or any other position. I don’t share your view that the Giants will or should trade a nearly unlimited amount of draft capital (two and a three or next year’s one) to move up for any WR, which apparently makes me an idiot worthy of being denounced with the “f” word.
You are the one who is insisting that the Giants “draft the same way I do” because you’ve decided that the Giants will not only draft a WR in round one, but will also be willing to trade a huge amount of draft capital to do so. That’s what you would do, so that’s what they will do. You also seem to be personally offended with anyone who has a different opinion. I am not offended by your opinion. I simply think it’s unlikely you’re right.
I’m going to let you have the last word. I grew up with a vulgar, violent, drunk who regularly carpet bombed me with “f” bombs, so my "default position" is to walk away from anyone who uses that word. This is a sports board. Maybe you should remember that.
@JimNagy_SB
·
1h
Got texts from three different scouts who were at TCU pro-day and all had projected first round WR Quentin Johnston in 4.51-4.54 range on his two 40-yd runs.
Johnston did not run at Combine.
That's much, much slower than expected.
What I see is a guy that will go get the football but sometimes he has his pinkies together instead of his thumbs.
He is effective catching that way but it does require the ball to get closer to his body in order for him to secure it.
This is correct and I'm surprised it wasn't corrected when he was in high school.
Very preliminary thoughts are that Jaxon lacks speed... Flowers is just lightning in a bottle... Johnson moves very well for a big guy.
I see it similarly. QJ seems like a very solid Big 12 WR who is also hard to evaluate because the Big 12 recruits parking cones for defenders.
I will say this. I don't hold his quiet outing against Georgia against him because the TCU OL was completely overwhelmed.
I think the two most underrated WRs in this draft are Tillman and Downs. I've been re-watching some Drake Maye and Downs always jumps out. He is Steve Smith fearless. And Tillman is just a big, bodied stud who has the potential to be the best WR taken if things click.
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Watching Johnson play, I had the exact opposite reaction, that he looks slow and clumsy. And that’s what his time at the TCU Pro Day indicated, too.
I see it similarly. QJ seems like a very solid Big 12 WR who is also hard to evaluate because the Big 12 recruits parking cones for defenders.
I will say this. I don't hold his quiet outing against Georgia against him because the TCU OL was completely overwhelmed.
I think the two most underrated WRs in this draft are Tillman and Downs. I've been re-watching some Drake Maye and Downs always jumps out. He is Steve Smith fearless. And Tillman is just a big, bodied stud who has the potential to be the best WR taken if things click.
Totally agree.
For a 6'4'', 215-pound receiver? I'll watch more, but I saw him running away from defenders. He also had pretty quick feet for a tall guy with long legs.
I fear he may have been removed from the board altogether.
I am guessing they will rank them as Gonzalez, Weatherspoon, Porter, Banks, and Ringo. Gonzalez and Weatherspoon are almost certainly gone. Porter would be their next best choice if he is not gone. If Porter is within reach, they may need to trade up if its cost effective. They could wait and pick at #25 or consider a trade down and still hope for another WR or CB.
A third option might be jumping on a surprise Edge, LB, or DT that falls to them, someone who has outstanding measurables like N. Smith, A Adebawore, M Murphy, K Kancey, T Simpson, or K White.
My guess is the Giants have their hopes set on Njigba and FLowers at WR and Porter and Banks at CB as players they would consider moving up a few spots to nab. Since everyone knows the Giants are looking for a WR first and foremost, they have to move up to avoid the Devonte Smith type of drafting disaster.
If they stay at #25, then I think they are looking at Q Johnson, K Ringo, C Smith, or T Simpson.
Honestly, I would not mind one of them in round 1 and another WR in round 2 or 3. We need talent at the position.
Very preliminary thoughts are that Jaxon lacks speed... Flowers is just lightning in a bottle... Johnson moves very well for a big guy.
Keep in mind, when you are watching JSN, you are watching his sophomore year highlights.
I'm not saying he's not a good player, but he looks like a slot guy to me who doesn't run very fast.
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dived into the draft yet. I've just been watching video highlights to get a feel for how some of these guys move as athletes.
Very preliminary thoughts are that Jaxon lacks speed... Flowers is just lightning in a bottle... Johnson moves very well for a big guy.
Keep in mind, when you are watching JSN, you are watching his sophomore year highlights.
JSN catches the ball with his hands, unlike Johnston. He doesn't look slow on any highlight film I've seen, or in Ohio State games I watched in 2021.
If JSN had been healthy this past season, I have little doubt he'd be a top 10 pick in this draft. If healthy he's the best of this bunch. Consider that his sophomore year he was arguably the best WR on a team that had Olave and Wilson - two of the top rookie WRs in the NFL last year.
If JSN is healthy and is there at #25 he's probably the pick. But I doubt he falls that far.
On a 3rd and 19 play against Michigan in 2021 he made this catch that I still don't know how he made - see link:
JSN catch vs Michigan - ( New Window )
I'm not saying he's not a good player, but he looks like a slot guy to me who doesn't run very fast.
I hear you, but my point is, I remember when Micah Parsons came out, we could only watch his sophomore year highlights, and what you saw then was not what you saw now. I know it's apples and oranges, but yeah, I think players can move faster from 1 year to the next, especially from their sophomore year in college to their junior year.
We're at the time of year where all these guys are under a microscope getting their flaws pointed out. JSN has been reduced to "not fast, not an outside WR".
This guy has elite quickness and burst and elite YAC ability. He'd immediately erase missing out on Devonta Smith and he's at least as good, if not better.
For the dozens, maybe hundreds of people who look for, read and appreciate your opinions, but don't participate because they don't want to get involved in the arguments?
I always look for what you have to say.
We're at the time of year where all these guys are under a microscope getting their flaws pointed out. JSN has been reduced to "not fast, not an outside WR".
This guy has elite quickness and burst and elite YAC ability. He'd immediately erase missing out on Devonta Smith and he's at least as good, if not better.
Everyone obsesses about 40 yard times, and based on that, neither JSN nor Johnston are barn burners. The 40 yard dash is one of the most overrated metrics to measure success at the WR level (or for any position in the NFL, for that matter). Quickness, agility, stop and start speed, balance, route running, and hands are much, much more important to determine whether or not a WR will succeed at the next level. You need to watch game tape to determine that, and to me JSN excels in all of these areas.
If he's coachable, then his weak points can be greatly improved. You can't coach 6-3 and 215. These other guys will never be that.