As I understand it, Julian Love "high-balled" the Giants. I am not sure if the Giants made a counter-offer, but basically the Giants response was "OK, go exploring"
Julian Love then came back to the Giants and said "hey the Seahawks are offering me this, would you care to match it?"
That offer from the Seahawks was lower that what the Giants were willing to pay, so the Giants/Schoen feeling spurned said "Ok, see ya later!"
In retrospect, given what Julian Love did, how do you feel about the way the Giants reacted to it?
I feel as if this was a statement from the team to say, no 1 man is more important the the team as a whole.....you are not going to get a premium salary from the NY Giants.....those days are over.....we like you, your talent, skills, etc, we'd love to have you, but at the end of the day, this is a business, and the New York Giants will not overpay..."
If this was Gettleman, I think Gettleman coddles Love (tee-hee) and overpays him to the long term detriment of the team as a whole...
What say you BBI? was this Good, Bad, are you indifferent?
Doesn't seem economically rational on either side. Maybe that's your point, though.
I DO agree they are sending a message "if we give you a fair offer, you should take it, cause it won't be there long".
I don't think it was about the Giants feeling "spurned" or sending a message. But I do think it shows they're being systematic, and sticking to their plan once they've decided on it. DG would probably have gone for the overpay.
The rumor is during the season giants offered him a contact and he said no. He tested the market and offers came in lower than the giants original offer. Love then asked the giants if they want to match the hawks offer and the giants said thanks but no thanks.
Love is a replaceable player. He’s not that good at anything and his size is a huge liability. It showed up constantly throughout the season. He lacks length and nfl athleticism at the safety position. Bobby McCain is probably an upgrade and love couldn’t play single high ever. Much better in the box but he’s just small. Good luck to him. Probably a big reason why he wanted to stay is that his brother is a WR at LIU I think he’ll be a senior
I agree with you - nuance and complexity run quite deep at his level, If i can only imagine. However, I think it's important to note that everything sends a message, whether intended or not. In this case, I think the message to Players, and more importantly their Agents, is that the Giants are a more well-oiled machine at the top than previous regimes.
This translates to better deals for FA and fairer trades when the time comes. It's no secret GM's and agents across the league like to 'test' the new blood.
Good for JS. Never overpay for 'good'.
If he makes you an offer, you better take it. Like Inspector Gadget, "this message (offer) will self-destruct".
I don't think the Giants were desperate to bring him back either way, but I like the fact they are showing they will move on quickly if the player dicks around.
And (I hope) his lack of game against the Eagles made it an easier decision. That playoff "performance" was a complete embarrassment and Love (a team captain) was a disaster. Can't have it. Why bust your ass to sign a guy who shrinks against top competition?
He can go to SEA and be average, and suck against a high flying offense. We need guys who are going to stand up to the Eagles and be difference makers in getting over the hump.
Schoen offered contract during the bye week.
Barkley and Love both declined since they thought they are worth more.
FA period started and RB and safety market plummeted and nobody is offering what Schoen offered them during the bye week.
Barkley got franchised and Love went to Sea and offered the deal which was lower than Giants offer during the bye week.
Love came back and asked Schoen if they can top it or match it and I guess at the point, Giants moved on and already used the money to Slayton or other players.
FA is all about timing thats why Schoen offered the extension during the bye week. So he can plan it way ahead but sometime player bet on themselves and it backfired. No harm feelings I guess, just move on.
I was about to post something similar to this.
If you listen to the Schoen interview after the initial round of FA, it seems to me that if Love had INITIALLY come in with a more reasonable number, the Giants were prepared to sign him. Once Love came back with a lower number the Giants had already spent the money.
McCain is a stop gap that will bring competition and a “higher floor” just in case both Pinnock and Belton are not ready for a bigger role.
That’s how I see it.
I think that is what we are seeing. If we make you an offer you better move on it or we move on from you.
Love was a pretty solid, heady player with no outstanding attributes
He is the type of guy u should be able to replace with a mid rd draft pick that develops ( like he was). U just can’t keep everyone with a salary cap
You gotta focus on X, he is real good ( but not top 3 level) safety
1. in-season he was 1 of 2 impending FAs to get an extension offer, reportedly higher than what he ended up getting.
2. before UFA began they again reportedly pushed to extend him.
3. when he didn't accept their offer they disengaged and moved on to make several other moves.
4. when he got an offer from seattle he reportedly gave them the chance to match, and obviously they didn't.
if as has been reported the offer he took was lower than prior offers, the reporting that they didnt have the $ left once he came back would appear to be backed up by the fact pattern. it seems extremely unlikely they just decided he wasn't worth less than they had been offering him over the prior 5-6 months or to make some kind of a point.
they moved on and spent the money on other players they liked instead of waiting out love, specifically 2 explosive but not necessarily reliable wrs, which may or may not have been the right decision. i personally think their decisions were risky, though there's obvious upside if they work out.
Agree.
Love is great dude. They weren't trying to make an example.
They had spent the FA money they were planning to spend by the time matching was an option.
I don't think it was about the Giants feeling "spurned" or sending a message. But I do think it shows they're being systematic, and sticking to their plan once they've decided on it. DG would probably have gone for the overpay.
THIS
In both cases, there was no message that was being sent, but players with upcoming unrestricted free agency are learning that owners may have a better grasp of the market and except for some, free agency and switching teams is not always that great.
When they gave Pinnock a contract mid season that was a sign they were prepared to move on from Love
I Don’t buy the scenario that the Giants were prepared to pay more but then withdrew the offer. That just doesn’t make sense. It implies that the Giants were somehow insulted that love would look for the best deal. Doesn’t make sense. Sounds like some scenario a reporter has manufactured in his head
decisions are rarely purely 1 thing. we know they were offering him more less than a week earlier. they made a decision influenced by their finances shifting.
Hi, j_rud, I think the thread has well dissected the non-signing, diehard and robbie and Eric in Li probably zeroing in accurately. As to the part of your post I quote re. Pinnock and Belton, I think the former, yes, Belton not at all sure. imo, the most underwhelming picks of JS's first year were him and Wan'Dale, with others as yet INC. I don't see Belton as having the range, sure tackling ability, or smarts in space (as yet) to nail down a roster spot. I'll go out on a very early and unnecessary limb and say Belton will be on the bubble--and saying that without knowing how JS/Dabs/Wink address their regime's picks if they are not measuring up--a good test case, again, imo only.
Just not super athletic and I can see why the Giants didn't want to commit long-term to him, especially with X due for an extension soon
hopefully Mckinney will be able to fill a lot of those snaps but he's now missed chunks of 2/3 seasons so im not sure we can take that to the bank.
mccain seems like a potentially reliable solution at a lower price but he has some specific limitations relative to love.
okereke was a nice addition to the defense but so far that unit is a major work in progress, and no position group more so than the DBs who weren't world beaters last year and now have to replace almost 2k snaps from love/moureau, who were better last year than anyone they currently on their roster.
ultimately they decided to reinvest loves $ in the offense but there's a reason why they were trying to extend love for the past 6 months in the first place and it wasnt so they could make a statement. it was so they could have 1 less need to use their 10 draft picks on, which will now certainly include multiple DBs.
Doesn't seem economically rational on either side. Maybe that's your point, though.
They did, however, offer it to Love first. He turned them down. Don't know why you expected Schoen to sit on his hands pining for Love. He moved on down his to do list.
We're talking about 6M in total guarantees. If Schoen wanted Love, it was very doable. Even after the WRs were signed.
For about a 2.7M cap hit in 2023 (1.6M more than McCain's cap hit), they could have signed Love to the same deal Seattle did. It would just meant using a void year to put that 1.6M out.
I suspect what happened is when McCain was cut in late February, the pro scouting team identified him as viable target.
I also suspect Martindale sees how Love, who was formally a part time player, slotted into the system as a starter. And he feels Belton can make a similar jump.
We're talking about 6M in total guarantees. If Schoen wanted Love, it was very doable. Even after the WRs were signed.
For about a 2.7M cap hit in 2023 (1.6M more than McCain's cap hit), they could have signed Love to the same deal Seattle did. It would just meant using a void year to put that 1.6M out.
I suspect what happened is when McCain was cut in late February, the pro scouting team identified him as viable target.
I also suspect Martindale sees how Love, who was formally a part time player, slotted into the system as a starter. And he feels Belton can make a similar jump.
JS appears to be against void years for roster spots he views as fungible if at all possible. Would rather have the cap room to cut a player or restructure rather than have a guaranteed cap hit.
The agents are advising their clients based upon their past experience. Once you reset the expectations of how the Giants negotiate, then it will help in the future.
Losing Love is fine with me if it is just part of the process.
This in a way reminds me of negotiations I had with someone. I put together a schedule of what I was willing to pay today, tomorrow, the next day, etc. Each day the price dropped. So, the longer they took to accept, the less I would pay.
JS appears to be against void years for roster spots he views as fungible if at all possible. Would rather have the cap room to cut a player or restructure rather than have a guaranteed cap hit.
I 100% agree, especially the fungibility.
He could have easily borrowed a modest amount of money from 2025 to keep Love and he simply chose not to do it.
That decision speaks much more to how they rated Love versus the alternative, than an either/or cap scenario for 2023.
Good players moving on should be standard operating procedure. See New England organization macro blueprint.
Also, Safety is a position which is relatively easy to fill with an, at least, adequate player.
Trust me, someone will be there to play snaps.
Luckily, we aren't talking about having to replace all his impact plays.
Trust me, someone will be there to play snaps.
Luckily, we aren't talking about having to replace all his impact plays.
I sort of agree. We're talking about a guy whose market rate puts him at like the 25th highest paid safety in the league on a new contract.
When the supporting evidence is Well, he played -- I think that's a pretty good sign he's fungible.
love also played the 4th most ST snaps on the team (220).
if you think pinnock and belton can fill his shoes next year that's fine, but for the last 6 months they were trying to resign love to the point of offering him more money than he got, so that clearly wasnt the coaches plan A. which is also why they added mccain, who i think was a good/necessary signing but also a downgrade.
you guys seemed to want to talk yourselves into believing love was a jag which is fine but is there any argument the nyg secondary is better today than it was last year?
What we know is:
1) the Giants could have easily matched the deal the Seahawks gave Love with some moderate cap maneuvering
2) the Giants appear to think McCain at the minimum + the incumbents is the better alternative, or they would have have opted for the above
No one is saying Love is a jag. He's just by value the 25th most sought after safety in the league.
What we know is:
1) the Giants could have easily matched the deal the Seahawks gave Love with some moderate cap maneuvering
2) the Giants appear to think McCain at the minimum + the incumbents is the better alternative, or they would have have opted for the above
No one is saying Love is a jag. He's just by value the 25th most sought after safety in the league.
Regarding the snaps, did Love get so many snaps because the linebackers weren't good or Wink likes using more defensive backs?
We can also easily replace unnecessary snap-hog Barkley with Platzgummer.
bobby mccain looks like a nice pivot to replace him cheap.
but he's 5 years older, entering his age 30 when mediocre players at speed positions tend to lose steps they cant afford to lose, and while i hope there arent id presume there are reasons why he was available for the minimum we wont be thrilled with in the fall if he's playing a lot.
Trust me, someone will be there to play snaps.
Luckily, we aren't talking about having to replace all his impact plays.
What an interesting way to admit that you don't get it.
You literally need to replace those snaps. Every team will need 11x the number of snaps they play on each side of the ball. How those snaps get filled, with whom and in what roles, is very directly and specifically how a team's success or failure is determined.
It's not surprising, given your posting history, that you would not understand this very simple and fundamental truth. What is surprising is how proudly you proclaim your own ignorance.
but it is clear that the Giants have moved on from him