Afternoon everyone: Just a couple of points we may (or may not) have picked in the tea leaves this past week which we haven't seen noted. First, while there was a lot of buzz about the fact that the Giants met with Quentin Johnston earlier this week, that same day Tennessee had its pro day with Cedric Tillman and Jalin Hyatt with almost no apparent interest at all from the Giants. Interesting. In fact, the Giants paid no special interest at all to any receivers but Johnston, Flowers and Smith-Njigba. So what does all that mean and we don't want to read too much intent.
What it likely doesn't mean is that the Giants are just doing their due diligence in case one of those guys drops to 25. That's just not the way NFL teams operate. What it does seem to confirm is that the Giants are really interested in acquiring one of the top receivers in this year's draft. Why. Again I don't think its so much they simply want to improve their corps but they are looking for a true #1 receiver, because right now in the NFL a team's #1 receiver is their most important player other than their QB.
I would also hope nobody bothers to chime in with the old 'I don't want this or that guy' or 'I wouldn't touch that guy with a 10-foot pole'. It really doesn't add anything to the conversation. The league has kind of told us what it thinks of a player like Johnston. Bill Belichek went half way across the country and spent the better part of the day yesterday with QJ. Same for Packers' GM Brian Gutekunsdt. Those teams are WR needy and pick 14th and 15th which is probably pretty close to where QJ is rated.
So the question for the Giants is how much are they going to be willing to give up to go up and get a player they feel has the potential to be a #1 receiver. Fact is nobody really knows (other than the Giants) right now.
The other thing that I thought was sort of kind of interesting this week was the fact that at their pressers on Monday, both Mara and Schoen when asked what other than upgrade the WR room would they like to accomplish they both answered they'd like to do a better job stopping the run. What made that interesting was they both said that the reason was that the Giants wanted to get their opponents' in more 3rd-and-longs so they could 'unleash' their pass rushers. To me that qualifier moved 'stop the run' from a cliched bit of coach-speak to something with more than a little strategic thought behind it. Anyway maybe something to think about in the second.
And speaking of the pressers not sure how many people actually watched the whole thing. but it wasn't hard to notice that both Schoen and Mara returned to the point that the Giants just have to get more pieces around DJ multiple times. (see above)
Have a great day!
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the Giants could take the tag off and let SB test the market while also freeing up $10 mil against the cap..
At this point, it makes no sense for the Giants to let Saquon go. The tag is relatively cheap given the talent level.
Saquon's team don't seem to realize the situation.
Exactly. Removing the tag also makes Barkley not count toward the comp pick formula so that would be really bad managing of our roster.
There are really just 3 options.
1. Work out a long term deal.
2. Keep him on the tag and play out the year.
3. Trade him.
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Colin has kindly agreed to another BBI draft chat on Tuesday.
You are wrong Eric: He did not kindly agree to it; he eagerly agreed to it!
I am sure the Giants have done their due diligence on Hyatt and Tillman.
I would rather the giants lean towards OL, LB or edge in round 1. There are a myriad of receivers with same skill set in round 2 that will be available and the drop off is not that much from the receivers pegged for first round.
Agreed, except I could see the Giants trading a third to move up for a WR they like. But to get from 25 to 15 would cost their second and third. That would mean no more picks until the end of round four despite our crying needs at CB, LB, DL, and Edge. And no, we can’t win with what we have at CB right now. Jackson and Flott are our only two reliable CBs, and Jackson will be a FA after next season.
Colin would spend any amount of draft capital necessary to get JSN, Flowers, or Johnston, so he assumes the Giants will as well. Who knows? He might be right, but I tend to doubt it. Schoen said people are placing too much emphasis on the WR position, and the Giants had or will have top 30 visits with Gervon Dexter and Cam Smith, two players projected to go in the first two rounds.
And how can anyone conclude that the Giants have no “apparent interest” in Tillman and Hyatt? What does that even mean? The Giants have also shown a lot of interest in Addison, and met with Tyler Scott at the combine.
With all of their other needs, I doubt the Giants are locked in on picking a WR at #25. But even if they are, one of JSN, Johnston, Flowers, or Addison will either be available at #25, or so close that trading up will only require a third.
But OK, let’s play GM. My trade: Barkley and #25 for #15 and a third.
I am sure the Giants have done their due diligence on Hyatt and Tillman.
Took the words out of my mouth. This is the season where Nothing is what it seems and nothing said can be believed.
IOL could still be in place when you think about the value an IOL would bring to the O vs a WR .... the IOL will give you a faster ROI and the effects will make others look better. A WR is still reliant on the OL and QB doing their job to get him the ball.
They did!!
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the Giants could take the tag off and let SB test the market while also freeing up $10 mil against the cap..
At this point, it makes no sense for the Giants to let Saquon go. The tag is relatively cheap given the talent level.
Saquon's team don't seem to realize the situation.
I don't agree with that. If the situation comes up and he seems unwilling to sign tag and we have a guy, I would take the $10 mil and use it somewhere else.
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met with Hyatt at the senior bowl didn’t they?
They did!!
Hyatt was not in the senior bowl they met during combine.
Tillman was senior bowl invite but I think opted out due to injury.
Also, combine draft board searches and my supposed tier one, I saw several matches in the top 15-20, but diminishing odds as you get closer to 25. Pick 89 will be good insurance that they don’t get shut out for their prime targets.
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the Giants could take the tag off and let SB test the market while also freeing up $10 mil against the cap..
At this point, it makes no sense for the Giants to let Saquon go. The tag is relatively cheap given the talent level.
Saquon's team don't seem to realize the situation.
I’m willing to bet his team understands the situation explicitly. I just doubt that Saquan accepts the reality of the situation.
"Almost no apparent interest" from the Giants? What does that even mean, that Schoen and Daboll weren't there? They've already met with Hyatt, and Hooker. Does anyone here think Tillman could be the first round pick? So it's not terribly surprising that the GM and coach weren't there. How many trips have those two made to see potential 2nd and 3rd rounders?
I think sometimes people try to read too much in the "tea leaves" at this time of the year. I believe it is highly unlikely that Schoen will give up three picks to get Smith-Hjigba, Flowers or especially Johnston and his suspect hands. Might it happen? Sure. But maybe they'll trade down to adds 2s and 3s. But we won't have a clue what they are planning for another four weeks. And even after the draft, if they pick at 25, we won't know whether they tried to do anything.
"Almost no apparent interest" from the Giants? What does that even mean, that Schoen and Daboll weren't there? They've already met with Hyatt, and Hooker. Does anyone here think Tillman could be the first round pick? So it's not terribly surprising that the GM and coach weren't there. How many trips have those two made to see potential 2nd and 3rd rounders?
I think sometimes people try to read too much in the "tea leaves" at this time of the year. I believe it is highly unlikely that Schoen will give up three picks to get Smith-Hjigba, Flowers or especially Johnston and his suspect hands. Might it happen? Sure. But maybe they'll trade down to adds 2s and 3s. But we won't have a clue what they are planning for another four weeks. And even after the draft, if they pick at 25, we won't know whether they tried to do anything.
+1.
They've already met with the potential first round pick from Tennessee. Time is a limited commodity both for the teams and the players. How many dinner dates can Hyatt have in one night?
I want to correct one thing Acid said and that is that I am 'advocating' trading up. Fact is I have never advocated the Giants doing anything; I'm an analyst; I try and figure out what they are doing and why. And right now, given what NFL teams do, the only reason to be investing so much time and energy in quys outside your draft range is that they indeed would like to try and get up and get one of them.
And to the why for a moment. And I'd really like people to chew on this a bit. The NFL is changing. The way the game is evolving on most really good teams their #1 WR is their second most important player after the QB. So do you really want to nickle and dime yourself in trying to acquire the guy who you hope is going to be the 2nd most important player on your roster after DJ AND the guy who maybe more than any other player is going to dictate how quickly the Giants close the gap with the other elite teams in the league.
Quentin Johnson is 6’4. 215 and runs a 4.4. Comparisons to AJ Green and Alston Jeffery.
Needs to stay healthy and continue improving his routes.
Dude is gonna be a perennial pro-bowler.
Quentin Johnson is 6’4. 215 and runs a 4.4. Comparisons to AJ Green and Alston Jeffery.
Needs to stay healthy and continue improving his routes.
Dude is gonna be a perennial pro-bowler.
And learn how to catch with his hands. Name one star receiver who is/was a body catcher.
The Giants still have holes all over their roster.
Take the player who falls to you, the one who wasn't supposed to be there.
Quentin Johnson is 6’4. 215 and runs a 4.4. Comparisons to AJ Green and Alston Jeffery.
Needs to stay healthy and continue improving his routes.
Dude is gonna be a perennial pro-bowler.
its kinda knit picky.. but I havent seen one report that QJ runs a 4.4
Seen some 4.5 which is plenty fine for someone his size.
1.Another year in the system, helps everyone.
2. Waller helps - and signifiantly so
3. The Oline figures to be substantially better and that helps too
4. There's been substantial upgrades trough free agency.
I admit to being little more than a casual fan, but based on that skimpy and imperfect musings Corner back seems more a position of extreme need and the only position I'd consider trading up for.
The Giants still have holes all over their roster.
Take the player who falls to you, the one who wasn't supposed to be there.
Spot on Eric.
1.Another year in the system, helps everyone.
2. Waller helps - and signifiantly so
3. The Oline figures to be substantially better and that helps too
4. There's been substantial upgrades trough free agency.
I admit to being little more than a casual fan, but based on that skimpy and imperfect musings Corner back seems more a position of extreme need and the only position I'd consider trading up for.
Boy, is your view of WR different than mine! Same with OL.
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Quentin Johnson is 6’4. 215 and runs a 4.4. Comparisons to AJ Green and Alston Jeffery.
Needs to stay healthy and continue improving his routes.
Dude is gonna be a perennial pro-bowler.
its kinda knit picky.. but I havent seen one report that QJ runs a 4.4
Seen some 4.5 which is plenty fine for someone his size.
4.5 is fine but nothing special. Several WRs in the last couple of classes have run in the 4.3-4.4 range, and were selected in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.
Why do NFL teams have scouting departments? So we can blow draft capital to move up in round 1 for a guy who is fractionally better than a guy we can get at 25 or in round 2?
Did we not just add 3 WR and re-sign Slayton and trade for Waller? Is a rookie in this draft class that much better than these 4 players?
Maybe but I don’t see it. Trading for Jeudy or Aiyuk makes more send than trading up.
We need CB, C, ER as well as WR.
And for the record, I think Tillman, Hyatt and Mingo are guys who will do very well in the NFL. If anything trade up in round 2.
While I agree that drafts are not just about this yr., I don’t think Schoen and Daboll are going to wait til next yr to add a top WR. I don't think they're the wait til next yr kind of guys.
Last yr, they were limited due to crap out of their control, so they did the best they could with what they could afford.
This yr is different and they know what the N F L stands for. Not For Long.
I don’t follow college football, or can evaluate players except for the eye test, so everything I know comes from BBI comments.
That said, my guess is , mixed in with Will A and Jaylon C , after the first one is taken in each of the following groups, there could be a run on QB, CB, and WR, maybe even ER, that get to at least pick 8 and up to about pick 17 with a surprise pick or 2 likely in there.
That all said, are there any Stop The Run players- DT, ER, LB- worthy of #25( or even with a minor move up)?
Accordingly Walter Football has visits for:
Q Johnson has NE 14th, GB 15th, Det 18th, TB 19th, Houst 33rd, and Tenn 41st.
Njigba has NE 14th, and Dallas 26th.
Flowers has NE 14th, Pitt 17th, and TB 19th
NE is just about guaranteed to take a WR. That leaves GB 15th, Pitt 17th, Det 18th, TB 19th as the 4 teams in the running for the other 2 WRs we covet. We would probably have to plan to trade up to 16 to ensure we get 1 of those 3.
However, if good fortune prevails in the draft and GB, Pitt, and Det don't take any WRs, then we would only need to trade up to 20th to get the 3rd WR we covet.
Conclusion: To get one of those 3 WRs, the Giants will likely have to consider trading up to the 16th thru 20th spot to get their guy. There is almost no chance any of those 3 fall to #25. If they can't get the WR1 they covet, they most likely stay put and go for one of the CBs such as Porter, Ringo, or Banks. This is a year to draft for quality over quantity. They are more likely to trade up than trade down.
And that what we have been talking about here, ie, the possibility of trading up in this year's opening round isn't necessarily about adding a WR, its about getting a player who can make impact plays, who can be a WEAPON!
of course, the mere fact of trying to move up opens up a whole bunch of other questions in addition to how much is it going to cost etc. If the Giants ultimately can't get one of the three guys they appear to be targeting do they simply settle on the next tier of receivers. Mostly likely yes because the 2nd tier which is likely going to include Addison, Tillman, Hyatt, Downs is still pretty good.
The one thought that has kind of niggled away at me through the whole process is would the Giants think about taking a DE like Keion White or adebawore at #25, who for the record are tweener types who could play DE on early downs and then kick inside on passing downs. And I ask the question simply because there will be receivers and corners who can contribute at least at some level in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, but I don't don't see who can do what White or Ade could do for you much past the end of the first round. Again, I think it unlikely but something I'll at least watch as we go forward.
A couple of people mentioned the possibility of a trade for a veteran. I believe that's absolutely still on the table. I also have this kind of gut feeling that the Giants are still very much in on Hopkins. And I mention Hopkins because he is maybe the one guy out there (who's available) who if he came in here - and wants to play - quite literally transforms your team in the same way Plax did before he shot himself.
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Quentin Johnson is 6’4. 215 and runs a 4.4. Comparisons to AJ Green and Alston Jeffery.
Needs to stay healthy and continue improving his routes.
Dude is gonna be a perennial pro-bowler.
its kinda knit picky.. but I havent seen one report that QJ runs a 4.4
Seen some 4.5 which is plenty fine for someone his size.
He looks fast and slippery on tape, really impressive for his size. Lets just say I wouldn't lose sleep over QJ's physical abilities.
Antonio Brown's RAS 3.86 was nothing short of unspectacular, in fact, he had no physical traits showing he was elite in any area. How could he end up as one of the best?
Antonio Brown RAS - ( New Window )
I would just point out that trading up doesn’t equate to overpaying. If you can get a player valued at 15 by trading #25 and #89 that’s a bargain, not an overpay. But yes, blindly trading up certainly can result in overpaying.
What I do know is that in 2021 JSN had almost as many receiving yards himself as Chris Olave and Garret Wilson, his former OSU teammates who were the top two rookie WRs in the league last year. And by accounts he could very well have been a top 5-10 guy this if he had been healthy. I have also had several contacts I have from around the league that tell me Flowers is just a player who if he was 2-3 inches taller would also likely have been close to the top 10 mix.
I am also reminded in some ways of the 1985 draft. That year there were also three receivers clearly thought of as the top of their position. And that the year the Giants had the 19th pick and were kind of hoping against hope that one of the three would be available when they got on the clock.
The Jets took Al Toon with the 10th pick and then Cincy took Eddie Brown at 13. Still the Giants had some hopes of getting the third guy but it would depend on Dallas not taking him at 17. The Patriots got on the clock at 16 and immediately traded the pick to the 49ers who took that thisr WR, some guy named Jerry Rice!
(In retrospect Bill Walsh tried to claim that he really really wanted Rice but it has actually been pretty well documented that before trading up with NE he tried very hard to get up earlier to get Brown. In reality he just wanted the third really good WR and lucked out big time. But that's how the draft works!)
In the end I am not sure what the lesson here is other than its usually tough to win championships unless you're occasionally aggressive and take some chances. Who was that guy we traded up for in 04. Eli something!
JSN hardly played last year and Flowers isn't two to three inches taller. Neither is Downs who is just as electric as Flowers.
I'm fine taking any at #25 or trading a third to move up for a WR or anyone else. But it is apparently foolish not to want to trade a two and a three or next year's one for anyone. Doing the former means the Giants won't pick again until the end of the fourth round. For one player.
Eli was a QB. They are in a different category than everyone else. Everybody needs a franchise QB, and massive trade ups are frequently required to get one. GMs who do so and get it wrong are usually fired.
As I said, trade Barkley instead of draft picks to move up. He's unhappy playing on the FT, the Giants have pulled their offer, negotiations have stopped, and he won't be here after 2023. Barkley and #25 for #15 and a third this year and next.
Sitting at 25 and with a roster still full of areas to improve on, should mean all avenues are open and don’t act in desperate fashion. Forcing a WR over potentialky higher graded talent or moving up and wasting picks to do the same is simply poor drafting.
Hopefully Schoen acts in prudent fashion and if he gets his top choice then great. And if that choice is a WR or some other highly graded prospect at CB, Edge or whatever then that’s all you can ask.
That’s how to the good GMs draft.
And that what we have been talking about here, ie, the possibility of trading up in this year's opening round isn't necessarily about adding a WR, its about getting a player who can make impact plays, who can be a WEAPON!
of course, the mere fact of trying to move up opens up a whole bunch of other questions in addition to how much is it going to cost etc. If the Giants ultimately can't get one of the three guys they appear to be targeting do they simply settle on the next tier of receivers. Mostly likely yes because the 2nd tier which is likely going to include Addison, Tillman, Hyatt, Downs is still pretty good.
The one thought that has kind of niggled away at me through the whole process is would the Giants think about taking a DE like Keion White or adebawore at #25, who for the record are tweener types who could play DE on early downs and then kick inside on passing downs. And I ask the question simply because there will be receivers and corners who can contribute at least at some level in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, but I don't don't see who can do what White or Ade could do for you much past the end of the first round. Again, I think it unlikely but something I'll at least watch as we go forward.
A couple of people mentioned the possibility of a trade for a veteran. I believe that's absolutely still on the table. I also have this kind of gut feeling that the Giants are still very much in on Hopkins. And I mention Hopkins because he is maybe the one guy out there (who's available) who if he came in here - and wants to play - quite literally transforms your team in the same way Plax did before he shot himself.
I appreciate all of your posts but gotta say this one has me confused. You’ve been pushing for a WR and how important it is in todays game. Yet now you’re telling people to get out of their comfort zone and think less about positions and filling a hole.
Isn’t that exactly what you’ve been doing with all your posts about drafting a WR in Rd 1?
Isn’t that exactly what you’ve been doing with all your posts about drafting a WR in Rd 1?
Eman: First let me be clear. I am not advocating anything here. I am watching what the Giants appear to be thinking and maybe why. Here's the difference. I don't believe the Giants are just looking to upgrade their WR room; if that was the case then yeah you really don't need to trade. I do not believe that's what the goal is here. The Giants are trying to trying to get to the next step where they can compete with the best in the league. And every other really good team in the league has an elite #1 receiver who is the 2nd most important guy on their roster after their QB. And that's what I believe the Giants are trying to do here and its why they are looking for the best they can get. In fact, I think you can make a pretty good case that how close the Giants come to closing the gap with the really good teams will be driven largely by how good the guy they ultimately get is.
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I appreciate all of your posts but gotta say this one has me confused. You’ve been pushing for a WR and how important it is in todays game. Yet now you’re telling people to get out of their comfort zone and think less about positions and filling a hole.
Isn’t that exactly what you’ve been doing with all your posts about drafting a WR in Rd 1?
Eman: First let me be clear. I am not advocating anything here. I am watching what the Giants appear to be thinking and maybe why. Here's the difference. I don't believe the Giants are just looking to upgrade their WR room; if that was the case then yeah you really don't need to trade. I do not believe that's what the goal is here. The Giants are trying to trying to get to the next step where they can compete with the best in the league. And every other really good team in the league has an elite #1 receiver who is the 2nd most important guy on their roster after their QB. And that's what I believe the Giants are trying to do here and its why they are looking for the best they can get. In fact, I think you can make a pretty good case that how close the Giants come to closing the gap with the really good teams will be driven largely by how good the guy they ultimately get is.
Fair enough and appreciate the reply.
I just thought the reasons you just mentioned was why you seemed to be advocating they go WR in past posts, but I guess I just misunderstood your posts.
BTW I agree they need a big time #1, but I don’t want them to force the pick because of the amount of holes still on the team. If they were that one player away then yeah go for it.
My ideal would be for them to somehow get Hopkins and then use their 1st and 2nd picks to add more talent wherever they can. If no Hopkins trade, I like Tillman in Rd 2 if he’s there.
Now what would it take to get one of those guys?
Jeudy: probably our 1st round pick
Hopkins: probably our 2nd round pick
So you can trade up to get JSN who seems to be the best WR in this draft.