for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

More from the tea leaves

Colin@gbn : 3/31/2023 3:35 pm
Afternoon everyone: Just a couple of points we may (or may not) have picked in the tea leaves this past week which we haven't seen noted. First, while there was a lot of buzz about the fact that the Giants met with Quentin Johnston earlier this week, that same day Tennessee had its pro day with Cedric Tillman and Jalin Hyatt with almost no apparent interest at all from the Giants. Interesting. In fact, the Giants paid no special interest at all to any receivers but Johnston, Flowers and Smith-Njigba. So what does all that mean and we don't want to read too much intent.

What it likely doesn't mean is that the Giants are just doing their due diligence in case one of those guys drops to 25. That's just not the way NFL teams operate. What it does seem to confirm is that the Giants are really interested in acquiring one of the top receivers in this year's draft. Why. Again I don't think its so much they simply want to improve their corps but they are looking for a true #1 receiver, because right now in the NFL a team's #1 receiver is their most important player other than their QB.

I would also hope nobody bothers to chime in with the old 'I don't want this or that guy' or 'I wouldn't touch that guy with a 10-foot pole'. It really doesn't add anything to the conversation. The league has kind of told us what it thinks of a player like Johnston. Bill Belichek went half way across the country and spent the better part of the day yesterday with QJ. Same for Packers' GM Brian Gutekunsdt. Those teams are WR needy and pick 14th and 15th which is probably pretty close to where QJ is rated.

So the question for the Giants is how much are they going to be willing to give up to go up and get a player they feel has the potential to be a #1 receiver. Fact is nobody really knows (other than the Giants) right now.

The other thing that I thought was sort of kind of interesting this week was the fact that at their pressers on Monday, both Mara and Schoen when asked what other than upgrade the WR room would they like to accomplish they both answered they'd like to do a better job stopping the run. What made that interesting was they both said that the reason was that the Giants wanted to get their opponents' in more 3rd-and-longs so they could 'unleash' their pass rushers. To me that qualifier moved 'stop the run' from a cliched bit of coach-speak to something with more than a little strategic thought behind it. Anyway maybe something to think about in the second.

And speaking of the pressers not sure how many people actually watched the whole thing. but it wasn't hard to notice that both Schoen and Mara returned to the point that the Giants just have to get more pieces around DJ multiple times. (see above)

Have a great day!
Pages: 1 2 | Show All |  Next>>
FYI  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/31/2023 3:36 pm : link
Colin has kindly agreed to another BBI draft chat on Tuesday.
RE: FYI  
Colin@gbn : 3/31/2023 3:39 pm : link
In comment 16079279 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Colin has kindly agreed to another BBI draft chat on Tuesday.


You are wrong Eric: He did not kindly agree to it; he eagerly agreed to it!
I  
Gogiantsgo : 3/31/2023 3:45 pm : link
thought that this thread would be about a different bag of tea leaves. By the way Schoen was talking about having leaders in the lockerroom outside of Barkley, I have a feeling that the situation there is very contentious and will soon explode. A holdout and a trade? I just don't get the sense that the Giants will agree to anything other than Barkley playing on the tag.

But I agree with you regarding the points you make regarding the draft.
If we snag a RB in the draft  
jvm52106 : 3/31/2023 3:52 pm : link
the Giants could take the tag off and let SB test the market while also freeing up $10 mil against the cap..
good stuff Colin. Thanks.  
Victor in CT : 3/31/2023 3:53 pm : link
I appreciate your insight here. You and Sy are 2 of the pillars of BBI.
RE: RE: FYI  
MotownGIANTS : 3/31/2023 3:53 pm : link
In comment 16079282 Colin@gbn said:
Quote:
In comment 16079279 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Colin has kindly agreed to another BBI draft chat on Tuesday.



You are wrong Eric: He did not kindly agree to it; he eagerly agreed to it!


Thanks ....
O  
Darth Paul : 3/31/2023 3:55 pm : link
K
RE: If we snag a RB in the draft  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/31/2023 3:55 pm : link
In comment 16079286 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
the Giants could take the tag off and let SB test the market while also freeing up $10 mil against the cap..


At this point, it makes no sense for the Giants to let Saquon go. The tag is relatively cheap given the talent level.

Saquon's team don't seem to realize the situation.
Great stuff  
aimrocky : 3/31/2023 3:57 pm : link
thanks for sharing.
Thanks Colin!  
bwitz : 3/31/2023 3:58 pm : link
Always appreciate your contributions Colin  
KingBlue : 3/31/2023 4:03 pm : link
Thank you. I think if we want one of the three mentioned... we are going to have to move up.
Colin, using that logic..its puts more strength on a possible WR trade  
George from PA : 3/31/2023 4:04 pm : link
The rumors of a Brandon Aiyuk or others trade doesn't seem to go away either.

A #1 WR in the draft is far from a given....
Colin, we appreciate a that you do for bbi, especially this time of  
Ira : 3/31/2023 4:09 pm : link
the year. Thanks so much.
The Giants don't have to trade up for a receiver. None of these  
Rich_Houston_1971 : 3/31/2023 4:10 pm : link
receivers in this draft are a bonafide #WR1 receiver. None of these receivers have the "must have" traits the others don't have in this draft. There is no Jamar Chase in this draft.

I would rather the giants lean towards OL, LB or edge in round 1. There are a myriad of receivers with same skill set in round 2 that will be available and the drop off is not that much from the receivers pegged for first round.
RE: Colin, using that logic..its puts more strength on a possible WR trade  
bwitz : 3/31/2023 4:12 pm : link
In comment 16079298 George from PA said:
Quote:
The rumors of a Brandon Aiyuk or others trade doesn't seem to go away either.

A #1 WR in the draft is far from a given....


That doesn’t make any sense. There’s been little to no rumors about that at all lately and, Payton literally said they’re not looking to trade any WR. Even if that’s disingenuous, they still want a high pick; it’s not happening.

What Colin said is spot on. The trade most likely to happen would be to move up to get one of the players he talked about and the Giants are the obviously interested in.
RE: RE: If we snag a RB in the draft  
robbieballs2003 : 3/31/2023 4:12 pm : link
In comment 16079291 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 16079286 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


the Giants could take the tag off and let SB test the market while also freeing up $10 mil against the cap..



At this point, it makes no sense for the Giants to let Saquon go. The tag is relatively cheap given the talent level.

Saquon's team don't seem to realize the situation.


Exactly. Removing the tag also makes Barkley not count toward the comp pick formula so that would be really bad managing of our roster.

There are really just 3 options.

1. Work out a long term deal.
2. Keep him on the tag and play out the year.
3. Trade him.
Really interesting post Colin  
cosmicj : 3/31/2023 4:14 pm : link
And very surprised that the Giants skipped the Tenn Pro Day,
Jones Did Pretty Well With Bottom Of The Barrel Wide Receivers  
Trainmaster : 3/31/2023 4:19 pm : link
I think Schoen really prioritizes positional value, so while I think upgrading the IOL I more important than a #1 WR, he won’t take IOL at #25. My guess is CB, DT or Edge at #25, with IOL and WR in rounds 2 or 3.

RE: RE: FYI  
Blue21 : 3/31/2023 4:23 pm : link
In comment 16079282 Colin@gbn said:
Quote:
In comment 16079279 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Colin has kindly agreed to another BBI draft chat on Tuesday.



You are wrong Eric: He did not kindly agree to it; he eagerly agreed to it!
Thanks Colin. I look forward to it.
Just because the Giants were not at the Vols pro day means absolutely  
Rick in Dallas : 3/31/2023 4:36 pm : link
nothing zilch.
I am sure the Giants have done their due diligence on Hyatt and Tillman.
P.S. Giants interviewed Hyatt at the combine  
Rick in Dallas : 3/31/2023 4:39 pm : link
….
RE: The Giants don't have to trade up for a receiver. None of these  
AcidTest : 3/31/2023 4:42 pm : link
In comment 16079300 Rich_Houston_1971 said:
Quote:
receivers in this draft are a bonafide #WR1 receiver. None of these receivers have the "must have" traits the others don't have in this draft. There is no Jamar Chase in this draft.

I would rather the giants lean towards OL, LB or edge in round 1. There are a myriad of receivers with same skill set in round 2 that will be available and the drop off is not that much from the receivers pegged for first round.


Agreed, except I could see the Giants trading a third to move up for a WR they like. But to get from 25 to 15 would cost their second and third. That would mean no more picks until the end of round four despite our crying needs at CB, LB, DL, and Edge. And no, we can’t win with what we have at CB right now. Jackson and Flott are our only two reliable CBs, and Jackson will be a FA after next season.

Colin would spend any amount of draft capital necessary to get JSN, Flowers, or Johnston, so he assumes the Giants will as well. Who knows? He might be right, but I tend to doubt it. Schoen said people are placing too much emphasis on the WR position, and the Giants had or will have top 30 visits with Gervon Dexter and Cam Smith, two players projected to go in the first two rounds.

And how can anyone conclude that the Giants have no “apparent interest” in Tillman and Hyatt? What does that even mean? The Giants have also shown a lot of interest in Addison, and met with Tyler Scott at the combine.

With all of their other needs, I doubt the Giants are locked in on picking a WR at #25. But even if they are, one of JSN, Johnston, Flowers, or Addison will either be available at #25, or so close that trading up will only require a third.

But OK, let’s play GM. My trade: Barkley and #25 for #15 and a third.
I thought they  
Dave on the UWS : 3/31/2023 4:46 pm : link
met with Hyatt at the senior bowl didn’t they?
RE: Just because the Giants were not at the Vols pro day means absolutely  
dtowner : 3/31/2023 4:52 pm : link
In comment 16079318 Rick in Dallas said:
Quote:
nothing zilch.
I am sure the Giants have done their due diligence on Hyatt and Tillman.


Took the words out of my mouth. This is the season where Nothing is what it seems and nothing said can be believed.
RE: Really interesting post Colin  
MotownGIANTS : 3/31/2023 4:53 pm : link
In comment 16079304 cosmicj said:
Quote:
And very surprised that the Giants skipped the Tenn Pro Day,


IOL could still be in place when you think about the value an IOL would bring to the O vs a WR .... the IOL will give you a faster ROI and the effects will make others look better. A WR is still reliant on the OL and QB doing their job to get him the ball.
RE: I thought they  
dtowner : 3/31/2023 4:53 pm : link
In comment 16079325 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
met with Hyatt at the senior bowl didn’t they?


They did!!
Thanks Colin  
BillT : 3/31/2023 4:55 pm : link
Schoen showed last year that he has priorities and he stays with them. Last year OL. 6(?) FAs and 3 draft picks. This year WR. 4 FAs and I agree they want one on the top 3/4/5 WR at 25 if at all possible. Maybe even a trade up but I think (hope) that one at 25 will be there. I like DL at 57. More top talent needed there.
RE: RE: If we snag a RB in the draft  
jvm52106 : 3/31/2023 5:07 pm : link
In comment 16079291 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 16079286 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


the Giants could take the tag off and let SB test the market while also freeing up $10 mil against the cap..



At this point, it makes no sense for the Giants to let Saquon go. The tag is relatively cheap given the talent level.

Saquon's team don't seem to realize the situation.


I don't agree with that. If the situation comes up and he seems unwilling to sign tag and we have a guy, I would take the $10 mil and use it somewhere else.
RE: RE: I thought they  
Rave7 : 3/31/2023 5:14 pm : link
In comment 16079329 dtowner said:
Quote:
In comment 16079325 Dave on the UWS said:


Quote:


met with Hyatt at the senior bowl didn’t they?



They did!!


Hyatt was not in the senior bowl they met during combine.
Tillman was senior bowl invite but I think opted out due to injury.
Colin, your tea leaves make sense.  
Pepe LePugh : 3/31/2023 5:19 pm : link
My read has been CB/WR 1 and 1A, with slight lean towards CB. You’ve got me seeing a more definitive preference for the WR.
Also, combine draft board searches and my supposed tier one, I saw several matches in the top 15-20, but diminishing odds as you get closer to 25. Pick 89 will be good insurance that they don’t get shut out for their prime targets.
Colin  
David B. : 3/31/2023 5:39 pm : link
Is there a WR in this class who's WORTH trading up for (with so many glaring needs elsewhere)? In past drafts, guys like Waddle, Chase, Devonta Smith actually stood out. From the little I know, there don't seem to be any of that kind of blue chip stud WRs this year.
RE: RE: If we snag a RB in the draft  
Mike in Prescott : 3/31/2023 5:40 pm : link
In comment 16079291 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 16079286 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


the Giants could take the tag off and let SB test the market while also freeing up $10 mil against the cap..



At this point, it makes no sense for the Giants to let Saquon go. The tag is relatively cheap given the talent level.

Saquon's team don't seem to realize the situation.


I’m willing to bet his team understands the situation explicitly. I just doubt that Saquan accepts the reality of the situation.
The Giants have  
k2tampa : 3/31/2023 5:52 pm : link
met with WRs Addison, Flowers, Hyatt, Jarrett, Johnston, Palmer, Scott and Wayne according to Walter Football. We also know they met with Smith-Hjigba. We also don't know who else they might have tried to visit with but couldn't make it work out. There are 31 other teams trying to schedule meetings with a limited number of players in a limited amount of time. As far as CBs they have only had meetings with Smith, Ringo and Brents. Does that mean they are only interested in Smith and Ringo in round 1 if they go cornerback? Not Porter or Banks? Didn't they show more interest in Rush than Smith at the SC pro day? Why didn't they meet with him?

"Almost no apparent interest" from the Giants? What does that even mean, that Schoen and Daboll weren't there? They've already met with Hyatt, and Hooker. Does anyone here think Tillman could be the first round pick? So it's not terribly surprising that the GM and coach weren't there. How many trips have those two made to see potential 2nd and 3rd rounders?

I think sometimes people try to read too much in the "tea leaves" at this time of the year. I believe it is highly unlikely that Schoen will give up three picks to get Smith-Hjigba, Flowers or especially Johnston and his suspect hands. Might it happen? Sure. But maybe they'll trade down to adds 2s and 3s. But we won't have a clue what they are planning for another four weeks. And even after the draft, if they pick at 25, we won't know whether they tried to do anything.
From  
Professor Falken : 3/31/2023 6:18 pm : link
some pictures I saw, Giants Offensive Assistant Cade Knox was at the Tenn Pro Day. Still, no Schoen or Daboll.
RE: The Giants have  
AcidTest : 3/31/2023 6:43 pm : link
In comment 16079348 k2tampa said:
Quote:
met with WRs Addison, Flowers, Hyatt, Jarrett, Johnston, Palmer, Scott and Wayne according to Walter Football. We also know they met with Smith-Hjigba. We also don't know who else they might have tried to visit with but couldn't make it work out. There are 31 other teams trying to schedule meetings with a limited number of players in a limited amount of time. As far as CBs they have only had meetings with Smith, Ringo and Brents. Does that mean they are only interested in Smith and Ringo in round 1 if they go cornerback? Not Porter or Banks? Didn't they show more interest in Rush than Smith at the SC pro day? Why didn't they meet with him?

"Almost no apparent interest" from the Giants? What does that even mean, that Schoen and Daboll weren't there? They've already met with Hyatt, and Hooker. Does anyone here think Tillman could be the first round pick? So it's not terribly surprising that the GM and coach weren't there. How many trips have those two made to see potential 2nd and 3rd rounders?

I think sometimes people try to read too much in the "tea leaves" at this time of the year. I believe it is highly unlikely that Schoen will give up three picks to get Smith-Hjigba, Flowers or especially Johnston and his suspect hands. Might it happen? Sure. But maybe they'll trade down to adds 2s and 3s. But we won't have a clue what they are planning for another four weeks. And even after the draft, if they pick at 25, we won't know whether they tried to do anything.


+1.
RE: From  
k2tampa : 3/31/2023 6:46 pm : link
In comment 16079363 Professor Falken said:
Quote:
some pictures I saw, Giants Offensive Assistant Cade Knox was at the Tenn Pro Day. Still, no Schoen or Daboll.


They've already met with the potential first round pick from Tennessee. Time is a limited commodity both for the teams and the players. How many dinner dates can Hyatt have in one night?
Thanks  
Colin@gbn : 3/31/2023 7:44 pm : link
to everyone that pointed out that the Giants did at lest have someone at the Tenn pro day above an area scout. I didn't know that; useful info. Of course, the Giants talk with lots of prospects, but talking to a guy just isn't the same as taking him to dinner the night before the event. In fact, I think its pretty rare for the team with the 25th pick to be taking anyone to dinner much less the top three quys at a particular position. Time will tell.

I want to correct one thing Acid said and that is that I am 'advocating' trading up. Fact is I have never advocated the Giants doing anything; I'm an analyst; I try and figure out what they are doing and why. And right now, given what NFL teams do, the only reason to be investing so much time and energy in quys outside your draft range is that they indeed would like to try and get up and get one of them.

And to the why for a moment. And I'd really like people to chew on this a bit. The NFL is changing. The way the game is evolving on most really good teams their #1 WR is their second most important player after the QB. So do you really want to nickle and dime yourself in trying to acquire the guy who you hope is going to be the 2nd most important player on your roster after DJ AND the guy who maybe more than any other player is going to dictate how quickly the Giants close the gap with the other elite teams in the league.
All  
AcidTest : 3/31/2023 9:22 pm : link
I am saying is that it will be extremely expensive to trade up above 15 for anyone. There are no “blue chip” WRs in this draft IMO. All have questions. I don't see the Giants trading a ton of draft capital to move up for JSN, Flowers, Johnston, or Addison.
Some of these comments are laughable.  
Tim in Eternal Blue : 3/31/2023 9:44 pm : link

Quentin Johnson is 6’4. 215 and runs a 4.4. Comparisons to AJ Green and Alston Jeffery.

Needs to stay healthy and continue improving his routes.

Dude is gonna be a perennial pro-bowler.
RE: Some of these comments are laughable.  
k2tampa : 3/31/2023 10:08 pm : link
In comment 16079527 Tim in Eternal Blue said:
Quote:

Quentin Johnson is 6’4. 215 and runs a 4.4. Comparisons to AJ Green and Alston Jeffery.

Needs to stay healthy and continue improving his routes.

Dude is gonna be a perennial pro-bowler.


And learn how to catch with his hands. Name one star receiver who is/was a body catcher.
IMO  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/31/2023 10:12 pm : link
forcing a pick based on position, especially at #25, is the height of stupidity.

The Giants still have holes all over their roster.

Take the player who falls to you, the one who wasn't supposed to be there.
RE: Some of these comments are laughable.  
blueblood : 3/31/2023 10:17 pm : link
In comment 16079527 Tim in Eternal Blue said:
Quote:

Quentin Johnson is 6’4. 215 and runs a 4.4. Comparisons to AJ Green and Alston Jeffery.

Needs to stay healthy and continue improving his routes.

Dude is gonna be a perennial pro-bowler.


its kinda knit picky.. but I havent seen one report that QJ runs a 4.4

Seen some 4.5 which is plenty fine for someone his size.
I'm surprised at the urgency for WR  
Blu4ever : 3/31/2023 11:27 pm : link
I think we're allright, or at least remarkably improved at that critical position.
1.Another year in the system, helps everyone.
2. Waller helps - and signifiantly so
3. The Oline figures to be substantially better and that helps too
4. There's been substantial upgrades trough free agency.
I admit to being little more than a casual fan, but based on that skimpy and imperfect musings Corner back seems more a position of extreme need and the only position I'd consider trading up for.

RE: IMO  
Victor in CT : 4/1/2023 7:24 am : link
In comment 16079552 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
forcing a pick based on position, especially at #25, is the height of stupidity.

The Giants still have holes all over their roster.

Take the player who falls to you, the one who wasn't supposed to be there.


Spot on Eric.
RE: I'm surprised at the urgency for WR  
Pepe LePugh : 4/1/2023 8:40 am : link
In comment 16079572 Blu4ever said:
Quote:
I think we're allright, or at least remarkably improved at that critical position.
1.Another year in the system, helps everyone.
2. Waller helps - and signifiantly so
3. The Oline figures to be substantially better and that helps too
4. There's been substantial upgrades trough free agency.
I admit to being little more than a casual fan, but based on that skimpy and imperfect musings Corner back seems more a position of extreme need and the only position I'd consider trading up for.

Boy, is your view of WR different than mine! Same with OL.
RE: RE: Some of these comments are laughable.  
cosmicj : 4/1/2023 8:45 am : link
In comment 16079554 blueblood said:
Quote:
In comment 16079527 Tim in Eternal Blue said:


Quote:



Quentin Johnson is 6’4. 215 and runs a 4.4. Comparisons to AJ Green and Alston Jeffery.

Needs to stay healthy and continue improving his routes.

Dude is gonna be a perennial pro-bowler.



its kinda knit picky.. but I havent seen one report that QJ runs a 4.4

Seen some 4.5 which is plenty fine for someone his size.


4.5 is fine but nothing special. Several WRs in the last couple of classes have run in the 4.3-4.4 range, and were selected in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.
This thought that good WR are not available outside of round 1  
Rjanyg : 4/1/2023 9:02 am : link
Is just not true.

Why do NFL teams have scouting departments? So we can blow draft capital to move up in round 1 for a guy who is fractionally better than a guy we can get at 25 or in round 2?

Did we not just add 3 WR and re-sign Slayton and trade for Waller? Is a rookie in this draft class that much better than these 4 players?

Maybe but I don’t see it. Trading for Jeudy or Aiyuk makes more send than trading up.

We need CB, C, ER as well as WR.

And for the record, I think Tillman, Hyatt and Mingo are guys who will do very well in the NFL. If anything trade up in round 2.
Drafts in general  
GrMtWoods : 4/1/2023 9:31 am : link
Are about more than just one year. It is possible waiting till next year may be in the cards.
RE: Drafts in general  
Dr. D : 4/1/2023 9:57 am : link
In comment 16079651 GrMtWoods said:
Quote:
Are about more than just one year. It is possible waiting till next year may be in the cards.

While I agree that drafts are not just about this yr., I don’t think Schoen and Daboll are going to wait til next yr to add a top WR. I don't think they're the wait til next yr kind of guys.

Last yr, they were limited due to crap out of their control, so they did the best they could with what they could afford.

This yr is different and they know what the N F L stands for. Not For Long.
Thanks Colin,  
Joe Beckwith : 4/1/2023 10:24 am : link
especially on the reminder about the ‘stop the run ‘ comments.
I don’t follow college football, or can evaluate players except for the eye test, so everything I know comes from BBI comments.
That said, my guess is , mixed in with Will A and Jaylon C , after the first one is taken in each of the following groups, there could be a run on QB, CB, and WR, maybe even ER, that get to at least pick 8 and up to about pick 17 with a surprise pick or 2 likely in there.
That all said, are there any Stop The Run players- DT, ER, LB- worthy of #25( or even with a minor move up)?
Pages: 1 2 | Show All |  Next>>
Back to the Corner