Per the Athletic long form story which included his old coach at Pitt guy named Marion- Sorry for the prior thread no being accurate here is a small excerpt:
"Goal No. 3 seemed imminent, and Marion was convinced it would come to fruition, particularly if Addison fell to the Giants with the 25th pick.
Marion said he had spoken to multiple members of the Giants brass about Addison, including general manager Joe Schoen. Marion even said the Giants flew to Las Vegas, where Marion works as the offensive coordinator at UNLV, to discuss Addison.
All of which led to draft night. As teams like the Seahawks, Chargers and Ravens selected wide receivers, Marion texted a Giants staffer, who reiterated the team’s plan to select Addison.
That was until Addison’s phone buzzed. On the other line was Vikings general manager Kwesi Adofo-Mensah, relaying that the purple and gold were about to grab the shifty playmaker at No. 23. That put a quick end to Marion’s storytelling, as the family screamed, hugged and basked in the excitement. Of NFL commissioner Roger Goodell reading Addison’s name, of the deafening reaction from Vikings fans in attendance."
I deleted it… my description / title wasn’t accurate
They don't call it lyin' season for no reason.
Agreed, especially with your last sentence. The Giants probably thought the Vikings would take Banks before Addison because their secondary was awful last year. My guess is the Giants would still have taken Banks if both were available, but of course we'll never know.
Schoen mentioned a lot that their pro personnel did ample research on other team's needs and their tendency.
Likely, during their internal mock draft, Banks was not available compared to Flowers or Addison. JSN was probably picked between 10-20.
When Banks was available after Vikings, it was no brainer for Schoen and get their guy and picked Banks.
I'm pretty sure Addison would've been fine by Giants if Banks was not available but board fell Giants way and they got their guy.
I think Commanders picking Forbes and Lions selecting Gibbs and Campbell really helped Giants because that made Banks available.
Well, it's not important anymore, now we all hope Banks play well when the season starts.
That said, Schoen pretty much told you short of spelling it out in his very first answer at their post-1st presser. I'm quoting directly from the transcript here
"the way it went down, and the way the board fell, we were getting depleted."
Granted its a little awkward way of saying much of anything, but its NOT what you say if you are sitting there on pins and needles hoping your guy falls 3-4 spots; in fact, if one guy like Banks is your guy you're cheering that the other teams are taking the receivers. It is what you say if you want one of the guys coming off the board.
That said, Schoen pretty much told you short of spelling it out in his very first answer at their post-1st presser. I'm quoting directly from the transcript here
"the way it went down, and the way the board fell, we were getting depleted."
Totally agree Colin, it's very possible their top target was 1 of the top WRs, but when they were gone they wisely pivoted to Banks. As you said it really worked out better in the end. Time will tell, but it could be a homerun of a draft.
That said, Schoen pretty much told you short of spelling it out in his very first answer at their post-1st presser. I'm quoting directly from the transcript here
"the way it went down, and the way the board fell, we were getting depleted."
Granted its a little awkward way of saying much of anything, but its NOT what you say if you are sitting there on pins and needles hoping your guy falls 3-4 spots; in fact, if one guy like Banks is your guy you're cheering that the other teams are taking the receivers. It is what you say if you want one of the guys coming off the board.
You are probably correct Colin.
Maybe it went like this:
1. Flowers
2. Addison
3. Banks
It makes sense.
The Giants researched the heck out of the CBs and WRs. I don't think that piece of information is suggesting anything other than they were very much interested. But we already knew that.
What we don't know is who they would have picked had everyone been available.
I still don't see any evidence suggesting Addison or any other WR was clearly the preferred target. Could have been, but we don't know.
They could be blowing smoke out of their asses, but Duggan said they were trying to trade up but not for Flowers. Raanan said they were trying to trade up for Banks. We know that the DC was giddy as hell at the pick.
This goes for Detroit too. They had one of the best offenses in the NFL last season. So naturally they use two first rounders both on offensive skill position players.
People keep raving about Detroits draft. But with the picks they had coming into the draft, their draft sucked balls
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I was puzzled @ the time why the Vikes took a WR. And I'm still puzzled considering their defensive woes last year. Their D made DJ look like a mix between Tom Brady & Mike Vick.
This goes for Detroit too. They had one of the best offenses in the NFL last season. So naturally they use two first rounders both on offensive skill position players.
People keep raving about Detroits draft. But with the picks they had coming into the draft, their draft sucked balls
Ugh, nevermind. I’m an idiot. They took Campbell with their 2nd first rounder. LaPorta was their 2nd round pick. But my point still stands. Their draft sucked
That said, Schoen pretty much told you short of spelling it out in his very first answer at their post-1st presser. I'm quoting directly from the transcript here
"the way it went down, and the way the board fell, we were getting depleted."
Granted its a little awkward way of saying much of anything, but its NOT what you say if you are sitting there on pins and needles hoping your guy falls 3-4 spots; in fact, if one guy like Banks is your guy you're cheering that the other teams are taking the receivers. It is what you say if you want one of the guys coming off the board.
Schoen’s quote doesn’t prove that the Giants were targeting a WR instead of a CB. He likely would have said the same thing if one of the four WRs, and not Banks, was still available at #24. Those five players were likely the last on which the Giants had first round grades.
But the bigger question is why the Giants didn’t trade up for one of the four WRs or Banks, all of whom were still available at #19. Duggan, Raanan, and an “asshat” with “VERY” credible sources all said they tried to do so, and that Banks was their target. But why didn’t they? The answer is almost certainly because it would have cost them #57. You were convinced that the Giants would trade #57 and then some to get one of the four WRs. Schoen obviously decided that was too much. What he was willing to trade to move up was likely a lot closer to what I and others said was his maximum, namely #89 and a late day three pick.
Banks was the likely the last player on their board with a first round grade. Schoen probably thought that was true for at least a few other teams behind them, and there was in fact a rumor that KC wanted to trade up for Banks. So he traded up with Jacksonville to get the last player on his board with a first round grade, especially since it was at a position of extreme need. But my guess is that he would have done so for any of the four WRs. The Giants were determined to get the last of those five players, with Banks probably being their favorite. The trade down with Buffalo was only going to happen if they were all gone.
In most drafts you're not getting your top target every time. Giants #1 prospect one year ago was Sauce. Top two picks still turned out plenty well.
It’s lying season for a reason.
The Giants researched the heck out of the CBs and WRs. I don't think that piece of information is suggesting anything other than they were very much interested. But we already knew that.
What we don't know is who they would have picked had everyone been available.
I still don't see any evidence suggesting Addison or any other WR was clearly the preferred target. Could have been, but we don't know.
They could be blowing smoke out of their asses, but Duggan said they were trying to trade up but not for Flowers. Raanan said they were trying to trade up for Banks. We know that the DC was giddy as hell at the pick.
Eric: I agree 100% that Banks could still have been the #1 guy on the Giants short list; neither do we know for sure that the Giants would have taken Addison ahead of Banks (although we did have 2 teams - Baltimore and Minny - that had CB very high on their needs list - and both both took the receivers ahead of the CBs.) Conversely, the opposite is true. I dare say 98% of your posters have said something along the lines of 'banks was the target from the get-go' and there is no evidence anywhere that I am aware of to back that up. Also in a logical world IF Banks was indeed at the top of the Giants wish list should have been happy that it was the WRs that were coming off the board knowing they had that insurance policy with the Jags in their back pocket.
Two, where I would disagree is with the satatement that the Giants did full due diligence on both the CBs and WRs. They did scout the snot out of the WRs; they also put a lot of time and effort into the offensive line; however I saw very little evidence that they paid much attention to the corners at all. They did have several in for late visits and did scout the two south Carolina guys early in the process but neither was very special in terms of everything else they did.
And yeah I bet Wink was thrilled but he's the DC and I'm guessing he was pounding the table for the kid thru the whole process.
Schoen’s quote doesn’t prove that the Giants were targeting a WR instead of a CB etc.
No, it doesn't but when he did say they were being 'depleted' it was the WRs that were coming off the board. The other thing the Giants had to know when Seattle got on the clock that with the 4 wides and Banks still there (and with their Jax insurance policy) they were going to get one of those 5 guys. So why would it be 'tense' when the receivers were coming off the board. You do the math!
Re the trade up (or lack thereof) the Giants presumably didn't trade up into the late teens because all 4 of the WRs were still on the board including JSN and Flowers who I am guessing were the top two. In fact if Seattle hadn't upset the applecart and selected JSN the Giants would have been guaranteed getting one of the WRs if that's what they wanted.
Also re the trades WHEN they tried to trade up makes a huge difference at least to the analysis. My guess is that they may very well have actually tried to trade up only after Seattle took JSN but the teams picking 21-22-23 weren't biting because they wanted the same players the Giants did.
And please I wish you would stop misquoting me re the 57th pick. I certainly never said that the Giants 'should' trade that pick for a WR. In fact I have never said the Giants 'should' do anything. What I did say was that if they did want to trade up they likely would not have wanted to give up anything more that their 3rd which meant they would have been limited to trading into the very late teens.
Otherwise good discussion.
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Schoen’s quote doesn’t prove that the Giants were targeting a WR instead of a CB etc.
No, it doesn't but when he did say they were being 'depleted' it was the WRs that were coming off the board. The other thing the Giants had to know when Seattle got on the clock that with the 4 wides and Banks still there (and with their Jax insurance policy) they were going to get one of those 5 guys. So why would it be 'tense' when the receivers were coming off the board. You do the math!
Re the trade up (or lack thereof) the Giants presumably didn't trade up into the late teens because all 4 of the WRs were still on the board including JSN and Flowers who I am guessing were the top two. In fact if Seattle hadn't upset the applecart and selected JSN the Giants would have been guaranteed getting one of the WRs if that's what they wanted.
Also re the trades WHEN they tried to trade up makes a huge difference at least to the analysis. My guess is that they may very well have actually tried to trade up only after Seattle took JSN but the teams picking 21-22-23 weren't biting because they wanted the same players the Giants did.
And please I wish you would stop misquoting me re the 57th pick. I certainly never said that the Giants 'should' trade that pick for a WR. In fact I have never said the Giants 'should' do anything. What I did say was that if they did want to trade up they likely would not have wanted to give up anything more that their 3rd which meant they would have been limited to trading into the very late teens.
Otherwise good discussion.
The room could have been tense as the receivers went off the board because they were unable to trade up for Banks and they were worried the Ravens or Vikings were going to take him. Thus, it was tense as each team picked receivers because they were anxiously hoping Banks wouldn't be picked. Can't you see that possibility? It might not be so simple as "The room was tense as the wrs got picked because we wanted a widereceiver". I think Schoen is a lot more nuanced in his approach than to say something like that. I think he's much more likely to say the room was tense as the receivers came off the board (because Banks was expected to be taken by 2 of the 4 teams that selected WRs and they were praying Banks made it past the Ravens and Vikings). When the Ravens were on the clock everyone was tensely waiting to see if they took Banks. They didn't take Banks and they then tensely waited to see if the Vikings would take Banks. Then when they didn't select him, boom a big sigh of relief and pulled the trigger on the tradeup for their target.
Plus concerns about his tailor.
Norcal: Its certainly a possibility that the Giants were tense because they were afraid they were going to lose their man. But in that scenario you'd think they'd be happy the WRs were the ones being chosen not that they were being 'depleted.'
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The room could have been tense as the receivers went off the board because they were unable to trade up for Banks and they were worried the Ravens or Vikings were going to take him. Thus, it was tense as each team picked receivers because they were anxiously hoping Banks wouldn't be picked. Can't you see that possibility? It might not be so simple as "The room was tense as the wrs got picked because we wanted a widereceiver". I think Schoen is a lot more nuanced in his approach than to say something like that. I think he's much more likely to say the room was tense as the receivers came off the board (because Banks was expected to be taken by 2 of the 4 teams that selected WRs and they were praying Banks made it past the Ravens and Vikings). When the Ravens were on the clock everyone was tensely waiting to see if they took Banks. They didn't take Banks and they then tensely waited to see if the Vikings would take Banks. Then when they didn't select him, boom a big sigh of relief and pulled the trigger on the tradeup for their target.
Norcal: Its certainly a possibility that the Giants were tense because they were afraid they were going to lose their man. But in that scenario you'd think they'd be happy the WRs were the ones being chosen not that they were being 'depleted.'
It would have been tense as they came off the board and then suddenly happy/relieved after they came off the board technically?
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The room could have been tense as the receivers went off the board because they were unable to trade up for Banks and they were worried the Ravens or Vikings were going to take him. Thus, it was tense as each team picked receivers because they were anxiously hoping Banks wouldn't be picked. Can't you see that possibility? It might not be so simple as "The room was tense as the wrs got picked because we wanted a widereceiver". I think Schoen is a lot more nuanced in his approach than to say something like that. I think he's much more likely to say the room was tense as the receivers came off the board (because Banks was expected to be taken by 2 of the 4 teams that selected WRs and they were praying Banks made it past the Ravens and Vikings). When the Ravens were on the clock everyone was tensely waiting to see if they took Banks. They didn't take Banks and they then tensely waited to see if the Vikings would take Banks. Then when they didn't select him, boom a big sigh of relief and pulled the trigger on the tradeup for their target.
Norcal: Its certainly a possibility that the Giants were tense because they were afraid they were going to lose their man. But in that scenario you'd think they'd be happy the WRs were the ones being chosen not that they were being 'depleted.'
If we're going to put so much stock into that Schoen quote, then I'd say it shows that Banks was at least one of their primary targets along with one or more WRs. "We were getting depleted" doesn't mean all your targets were gone, nor does it imply the order in which they were going or which one they would have taken had they not gone before the Giants pick. Getting depleted is different from actually depleted.
Given the league's blatant favoring of offense to the expense of everything else, who can blame them.
I would guess that they had the 4 WRs and 2 CBs on their list - I will include Porter.
What I am surprised at is that Hyatt lasted to the 3rd round. There are almost always a couple guys that fall for no apparent reason. Hyatt was this years recipient. Good news for the Giants.
I would guess that they had the 4 WRs and 2 CBs on their list - I will include Porter.
What I am surprised at is that Hyatt lasted to the 3rd round. There are almost always a couple guys that fall for no apparent reason. Hyatt was this years recipient. Good news for the Giants.
I think if Porter was on their list of 1st rd targets, they wouldn't have traded up for Banks. 1 of the 2 was going to be there at 25.
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I was puzzled @ the time why the Vikes took a WR. And I'm still puzzled considering their defensive woes last year. Their D made DJ look like a mix between Tom Brady & Mike Vick.
This goes for Detroit too. They had one of the best offenses in the NFL last season. So naturally they use two first rounders both on offensive skill position players.
People keep raving about Detroits draft. But with the picks they had coming into the draft, their draft sucked balls
They actually had a nice draft at least on paper they added a player with starter potential on every level to the middle of their D. There biggest weakness. Got THEIR #1 rated RB. A nice value at QB that can just sit learn for a year with no pressure. While adding a good weapon at TE. They latter picks are all potential depth and spot duties example the DT can play on goalline and short yardage situations. The draft is a crapshoot for all. Yup they could of had Crater but they opted for slight less potential of a single player for more picks and overall improvement team wise. Not really a bad approach. Time will tell if they should have taken the other RB, even if Carter lives up to the billing that will not be greater than if all their picks rds 1 thru 3 do the same.
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I was puzzled @ the time why the Vikes took a WR. And I'm still puzzled considering their defensive woes last year. Their D made DJ look like a mix between Tom Brady & Mike Vick.
This goes for Detroit too. They had one of the best offenses in the NFL last season. So naturally they use two first rounders both on offensive skill position players.
People keep raving about Detroits draft. But with the picks they had coming into the draft, their draft sucked balls
They actually had a nice draft at least on paper they added a player with starter potential on every level to the middle of their D. There biggest weakness. Got THEIR #1 rated RB. A nice value at QB that can just sit learn for a year with no pressure. While adding a good weapon at TE. Their latter picks are all potential depth and spot duties example the DT can play on goalline and short yardage situations. The draft is a crapshoot for all. Yup they could of had Carter but they opted for slightly less potential of a single player for more picks and overall improvement team wise. Not really a bad approach. Time will tell if they should have taken the other RB, even if Carter lives up to the billing that will not be greater than if all their picks rds 1 thru 3 do the same.
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parsing words with no chance of it ever being proven one way or the other. Each side with a good POV.
I would guess that they had the 4 WRs and 2 CBs on their list - I will include Porter.
What I am surprised at is that Hyatt lasted to the 3rd round. There are almost always a couple guys that fall for no apparent reason. Hyatt was this years recipient. Good news for the Giants.
I think if Porter was on their list of 1st rd targets, they wouldn't have traded up for Banks. 1 of the 2 was going to be there at 25.
Good point, unless they had Banks just rated higher and it was worth a 5th and 7th to get the guy they truly wanted(kind of a weak argument).
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In comment 16113177 capone said:
The Giants researched the heck out of the CBs and WRs. I don't think that piece of information is suggesting anything other than they were very much interested. But we already knew that.
What we don't know is who they would have picked had everyone been available.
I still don't see any evidence suggesting Addison or any other WR was clearly the preferred target. Could have been, but we don't know.
They could be blowing smoke out of their asses, but Duggan said they were trying to trade up but not for Flowers. Raanan said they were trying to trade up for Banks. We know that the DC was giddy as hell at the pick.
Eric: I agree 100% that Banks could still have been the #1 guy on the Giants short list; neither do we know for sure that the Giants would have taken Addison ahead of Banks (although we did have 2 teams - Baltimore and Minny - that had CB very high on their needs list - and both both took the receivers ahead of the CBs.) Conversely, the opposite is true. I dare say 98% of your posters have said something along the lines of 'banks was the target from the get-go' and there is no evidence anywhere that I am aware of to back that up. Also in a logical world IF Banks was indeed at the top of the Giants wish list should have been happy that it was the WRs that were coming off the board knowing they had that insurance policy with the Jags in their back pocket.
Two, where I would disagree is with the satatement that the Giants did full due diligence on both the CBs and WRs. They did scout the snot out of the WRs; they also put a lot of time and effort into the offensive line; however I saw very little evidence that they paid much attention to the corners at all. They did have several in for late visits and did scout the two south Carolina guys early in the process but neither was very special in terms of everything else they did.
Except this isn't true. The Giants brought in a lot of CBs for top 30 visits, met with them for meals and scouted them thoroughly as has been discussed already. And two of the CBs on that list were actually drafted. This concept of what is special in your mind is just odd.
There was also a video circulating around here of Banks himself saying, just before the draft, how bad the NY Giants really wanted him in his own opinion. And it wasn't like he was listing a bunch of potential landing spots as he only brought up the Giants and did so in an unsolicited fashion. My take on that video is Banks clearly felt the Giants thought he was special.
Nonetheless, it is okay to suggest the Giants were interested in the WRs as we know they were and even traded up in Rd3 to grab a scouted prospect in Hyat. But it is just plain silly at this point to keep pushing this agenda that the Giants ONLY really cared about WRs, and no other prospects at a different position got any real pre-draft attention just to keep spinning this outcome.
I have been doing this for 30 years now, not to make a point or win an argument, but to try and figure out what the Giants were thinking and never in my 30 years have they been more open and obvious about what their priority was. They told us in their end of season briefings: 'we need to get more pieces around Daniel Jones' (Mara and Schoen) and 'we need more explosive big plays' (Daboll). They showed us in the time and resources they put into the different positions during the pre-draft process, and Schoen pretty much told us in his post draft comment that 'it was getting tense because we were being depleted' which can really only mean that it was getting tense because our targets were coming off the board too fast!'
Did the Giants check out other positions during the pre-draft process. Of course they did. they had 10 picks. And because of where they thought the WRs might go there was never any guarantee that they would actually get a shot at any of their top targets so you absolutely needed a back-up plan or two.
One of the interesting questions that hasn't been asked for example, is that IF the Giants had traded down with Buffalo who would they have targeted at that point in time. One would think that Porter would likely have been there, but Schoen did mention that they had looked at multiple positions especially if they had traded down and one wonders if several DL like Bresee, Murphy or keion white would also have been in the mix. But not to digress.
In the end, if you don't believe the Giants went into the draft hoping to get one of the top WRs IF THE VALUE WAS THERE you are living in denial and I can't help. What we don't know is whether they would actually have traded up if say JSN and Flowers came off the board in the top 15, but they didn't need to as all 4 of the top WRs were still on the board into the late teens. They gambled that at least one of them would make it to 25 which it appeared almost certain as long as Seattle didn't take one. But the Seahawks did which set off the run on WRs and the Giants lost the gamble. But they had Banks as a fallback and still got a very good player who filled a need at 24. And then came up smelling like roses when they were able to trade up in the 3rd to get Hyatt.
And I'm with section 125 on that one. It still boggles my mind that the Biletnikoff award winner, a consensus All-American, and the SEC's leading receiver who averaged 18.9 yards per catch and scored 15 TDs including 5 against Alabama (and that's not Alabama Tech or Teachers College; its not even alabama A&M, but THE Alabama that has been THE dominant program in the college football the past decade) was still available into the middle of the third round. I hope somebody explains it to me some day!!
Have a great day!
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this story on BBI before, but I was at a party in Jersey back in the 1990s and Neil O'Donnell was there. He told me that Bill Parcells told him before the draft the Giants were going to draft him. They passed on him twice.
They don't call it lyin' season for no reason.
I expect a bit of savviness out of Parcells. Our recent regimes not so much.
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There were multiple questions there
Plus concerns about his tailor.
Take him off the draft board.
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Schoen’s quote doesn’t prove that the Giants were targeting a WR instead of a CB etc.
No, it doesn't but when he did say they were being 'depleted' it was the WRs that were coming off the board. The other thing the Giants had to know when Seattle got on the clock that with the 4 wides and Banks still there (and with their Jax insurance policy) they were going to get one of those 5 guys. So why would it be 'tense' when the receivers were coming off the board. You do the math!
Re the trade up (or lack thereof) the Giants presumably didn't trade up into the late teens because all 4 of the WRs were still on the board including JSN and Flowers who I am guessing were the top two. In fact if Seattle hadn't upset the applecart and selected JSN the Giants would have been guaranteed getting one of the WRs if that's what they wanted.
Also re the trades WHEN they tried to trade up makes a huge difference at least to the analysis. My guess is that they may very well have actually tried to trade up only after Seattle took JSN but the teams picking 21-22-23 weren't biting because they wanted the same players the Giants did.
And please I wish you would stop misquoting me re the 57th pick. I certainly never said that the Giants 'should' trade that pick for a WR. In fact I have never said the Giants 'should' do anything. What I did say was that if they did want to trade up they likely would not have wanted to give up anything more that their 3rd which meant they would have been limited to trading into the very late teens.
Otherwise good discussion.
Any "tension" could have been because the Giants were concerned someone would take Banks. Minnesota certainly could have given how bad their secondary was last year. The beat reporters also said that the Giants were trying to trade up for Banks, not a WR.
It wasn't surprising that Seattle took JSN at #20. He was the consensus #1 WR in the draft.
You said before the draft that trading #57 to move up for one of the four WRs was "expensive" but not "prohibitive." You cited the dinners and visits the Giants had with the WRs as proof they agreed with your conclusion that drafting one in the first round was mandatory. You also said that anyone who disagreed `didn't understand how teams draft, even to the point of quoting Johnathan Swift's famous line that "there's none so blind as they that won't see."
I also like how Banks is being described as a "fallback" now at #24 as opposed to any consideration of being a true valid target in Rd1 from the beginning. Like Banks said himself.
In that context I am not surprised that the Giants would have been very much in contact with Banks because the way we thought the board was going to go there was no guarantee at all that the Giants were actually going to be able to get one of the 3-4 WRs they had targeted and would want to have a Plan B in place. We also don't know if they told more than one player what they were telling Banks. See Eric's note about Parcells and O'Donnell.
I am glad Acid mentioned the Swift quote; we do try and elevate the conversation on BBI every once in a while! And it was something of surprise that Seattle took JSN as they were thought to be more interested in a DL like Murphy or Bresee; and yeah JSN was the #1 WR, but 19 other teams had already passed on him.
And again, I believe that Schoen's presser comments are so revealing if you take the time to read between the lines (which you have to do because those guys do tend to speak in code!)
If the Seahawks had passed on JSN then the Giants would have been assured getting one of the top 4 WRs and it only got intense when Seattle did take JSN meaning that the Giants were no longer assured mathematically of getting one of the top receivers as there were still four picks to go but now only 3 of the WRs left AND three teams in a row that had each been talking about taking a WR.
And one could make the case that it was 'intense' because the Giants were worried that they might lose Banks, but then they would have had to have been happy that it was the receivers coming off the board. But you can't talk about the intense part without the context of 'we were being depleted' which can only mean that the guys they were interested in were coming off the board too fast.
And good luck with that whole flexible thing.
And good luck with that whole flexible thing.
I tend to agree with your assessment.
But I'm operating from a position of bias too. I think the Giants wanted Sauce Gardner last year. I think nothing has changed in terms of the evaluation of the need at that position. They also wanted a WR, given their interest in Garrett Wilson. But I think CB was higher on their want list.
Also, all of the 1st-round WRs had warts, which is why some felt at one point possibly on 2 or 3 would go in the first round. Banks on the other hand was expected to be gone by 25.
The comment that they watched the guys in their basket fly off the board does not automatically imply they went in the order of preference.
I said before the draft and after the draft, CB was the bigger need. It was also the harder one to fill given what Wink wants in a CB. If the Giants did not get Banks in round one, and if they still went with JMS in round 2, I would not have been thrilled with the CB options in round 3.
JOE SCHOEN: The way it went down and the way the board fell, we were getting depleted.
So it was the right thing to do for us. We do a lot of research on team needs, and what people need behind us, and including the team that we traded with. So that was a scenario we put together early in the day if we got there, and we were worried about anybody else coming up to that position. We had something in place with Jacksonville and it worked out.
Q. As it was unfolding today, maybe until about pick No. 19, it looked like it was playing out well for you. Even if you were looking at receivers, how tense does that start to get once it got to like 20, 21, 22?
JOE SCHOEN: I would say it got pretty tense..."
Nowhere here does it suggest wr was the top target. We know Colin was very staunchly adamant about NYG going for WR in rd1 and trading up if they needed to. If this was true, they surely would have traded up for their top target at pick at 18 or 19. Trading up with the Lions whom reached for Jack Campbell at 18 would have been perfect. They already showed they were happy trading back for more picks and they could have gotten Campbell with our 25th pick. That trade would have been perfect and we wouldn't have had to overpay. We then would have had our pick of all the receivers. That didn't happen, we stood pat and let all the receiver needy teams have their pick. Thus, you were wrong Colin. No disrespect, but the Giants clearly were not thinking what you were thinking in reading the tea leaves and reading between the lines (in other words rationalizing and justifying your adamant perspective by making assumptions).
If they wanted WR as badly as you think they did, they simply would have traded up. What you wanted them to do from your perspective as a fan is go for WR even if they needed to tradeup. Now, my question is what would you have done in rounds 1-4 if you were Joe Schoen. And don't say you wouldn't have traded up because you made that clear pre-draft, you would have traded up. We could have feasibly traded our 1st, 3rd and a 5th for the Lions 18th pick. So let's start with that, you traded our 1st, 3rd and 5th to the 18th pick with the Lions. How do you proceed, Colin?
Here's a hypothetical draft board ranking of players:
#1-#15 let's just assume the first 15 players drafted were the same 15 players on this board
#16 Banks
#17 JSN
#18 Forbes
#19 Gonzalez
#20 Flowers
#21 Addison
#22 Johnston
Now, #16 through #22 are lumped together in a tight group, so the team would be happy with any of them and wouldn't necessarily feel the need to trade up to get any of them if the others are available, but the above is their order of preference if more than one were available. But after #22, they feel there's a drop off on the board to #23 Porter - enough of a drop off that they'd feel compelled to make a reasonable trade to avoid it.
Now with the Jags pick coming up, all of those players are gone (as well as a few players they had ranked lower) except for Banks. In other words, the list was "getting depleted."
So things were tense because of the possibility that no player in that group would be available (not just that no WR out of the group would be available) and the team made the trade to get Banks.
What is the logic that makes your WR assumption obvious and this hypothetical less reasonable?
Ford's in his flivver, all's right with the world.
I think the Giants wanted Sauce Gardner last year.
The comment that they watched the guys in their basket fly off the board does not automatically imply they went in the order of preference.
I said before the draft and after the draft, CB was the bigger need. It was also the harder one to fill given what Wink wants in a CB.
All good points Eric: re last year while it does appear that Sauce was the top guy on their wish list it may very well simply be that he was their highest graded player. My understanding is or was that Stingley, the other top ranked CB wasn't even on their short list, although its hard to tell because both corners were off the board by the time the Giants were up.
I see we're having trouble with the depleted comment. If someone says we were getting worried because the players we liked were coming off the board too fast (which is what he implied) and all the guys that were in fact coming off the board were from POS X then one can probably safely assume that the guys they wanted were from POS X.
I think your last point is ultimately the most interesting although I am still not sure why the lack of a #2 CB would be a bigger issue than the lack of a true #1 receiver but that's just me. I do agree that CB would be harder to fill than WR in the later rounds, but teams don't usually draft that way. I also have never believed that you necessarily build a team simply by addressing your biggest need or filling your biggest hole. You build a championship team by building the units that win games and in the NFL these days you can make a pretty good case that after QB the most important unit on the team in these days of pass-happy NFL are the receivers and I see on another thread the Giants' are rated something like 29th (which I think is too low) but ultimately you don't win championships by filling holes you do it by adding players that make impact plays.
Let it go. Colin's strong takes made the draft fun. He interacted with us, let's not be douche's. So excited for 2023.
Eagles are going 0-2 out of the gate and it will get ugly in Philly...
Let's spend energy on that.
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I think the Giants wanted Sauce Gardner last year.
The comment that they watched the guys in their basket fly off the board does not automatically imply they went in the order of preference.
I said before the draft and after the draft, CB was the bigger need. It was also the harder one to fill given what Wink wants in a CB.
All good points Eric: re last year while it does appear that Sauce was the top guy on their wish list it may very well simply be that he was their highest graded player. My understanding is or was that Stingley, the other top ranked CB wasn't even on their short list, although its hard to tell because both corners were off the board by the time the Giants were up.
I see we're having trouble with the depleted comment. If someone says we were getting worried because the players we liked were coming off the board too fast (which is what he implied) and all the guys that were in fact coming off the board were from POS X then one can probably safely assume that the guys they wanted were from POS X.
I think your last point is ultimately the most interesting although I am still not sure why the lack of a #2 CB would be a bigger issue than the lack of a true #1 receiver but that's just me. I do agree that CB would be harder to fill than WR in the later rounds, but teams don't usually draft that way. I also have never believed that you necessarily build a team simply by addressing your biggest need or filling your biggest hole. You build a championship team by building the units that win games and in the NFL these days you can make a pretty good case that after QB the most important unit on the team in these days of pass-happy NFL are the receivers and I see on another thread the Giants' are rated something like 29th (which I think is too low) but ultimately you don't win championships by filling holes you do it by adding players that make impact plays.
Please answer my question I'm really curious what you would have done after trading our 1st, 3rd and 5th with the Lions for the 18th pick. What is your draft after that?
Here was my draft in rounds 1-4:
Banks rd1
Mims jr rd2
Stromberg rd3
Darius Rush rd4
Eagle's have a tough road, lets not crown them yet. - ( New Window )
Here's a hypothetical draft board ranking of players:
#1-#15 let's just assume the first 15 players drafted were the same 15 players on this board
#16 Banks
#17 JSN
#18 Forbes
#19 Gonzalez
#20 Flowers
#21 Addison
#22 Johnston
Now, #16 through #22 are lumped together in a tight group, so the team would be happy with any of them and wouldn't necessarily feel the need to trade up to get any of them if the others are available, but the above is their order of preference if more than one were available. But after #22, they feel there's a drop off on the board to #23 Porter - enough of a drop off that they'd feel compelled to make a reasonable trade to avoid it.
Now with the Jags pick coming up, all of those players are gone (as well as a few players they had ranked lower) except for Banks. In other words, the list was "getting depleted."
So things were tense because of the possibility that no player in that group would be available (not just that no WR out of the group would be available) and the team made the trade to get Banks.
What is the logic that makes your WR assumption obvious and this hypothetical less reasonable?
Its not rocket science! Once Seattle took JSN the Giants still knew they would get one of the three remaining receivers and/or Banks no matter what happened on picks 21-22-23. That was guaranteed. Simple math. And he said they were sweating it out because they were being depleted with the WRs coming off the board. I do not know how many times I have to say. IF THE GIANTS WANTED BANKS THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN CHEERING THE WRS COMING OFF THE BOARD AT THAT POINT. THEY WEREN'T! THEY WERE SWEATING BECAUSE THE WRS WERE COMING OFF. THE BOARD!
And by the way, Schoen lost his preferred CB twice last year. Sauce Gardner who went right in front of us in Rd1 and then Roger McCreary in Rd2 when the Titans made a last second move up in front of us. This resulted in Schoen having to regroup and deciding to trade down to pick up some extra picks while looking through his next tier of players.
My guess is Schoen didn't want to lose his target at CB this year which is why we heard rumors of an earlier potential trade up in Rd 1 to get Banks, and then just resolving to move up one pick in hopes to get him there or block another team from coming up. Good stuff.
I've always really appreciated and respected your input Colin, I hope you don't feel like anyone is ganging up on you or arguing with you. We are all just enjoying the discussion over what was taking place in the draft room.
When you get time, please tell us what you would have done after trading up to 18 for our 1st, 3rd and 5th. I would take JSN there myself, but I could see the merit of Flowers there. What do you do with pick 18, our 2nd and 4th?
I think your last point is ultimately the most interesting although I am still not sure why the lack of a #2 CB would be a bigger issue than the lack of a true #1 receiver but that's just me. I do agree that CB would be harder to fill than WR in the later rounds, but teams don't usually draft that way. I also have never believed that you necessarily build a team simply by addressing your biggest need or filling your biggest hole. You build a championship team by building the units that win games and in the NFL these days you can make a pretty good case that after QB the most important unit on the team in these days of pass-happy NFL are the receivers and I see on another thread the Giants' are rated something like 29th (which I think is too low) but ultimately you don't win championships by filling holes you do it by adding players that make impact plays.
The reason you are struggling understanding this is that drafting a CB like Banks in Schoen's eyes isn't just about addressing a big need or filling a hole. Schoen thinks he is a better prospect than the WR class this year. You seem to be unable or not willing to get past an entrenched viewpoint that it should have been only about the WRs, but it wasn't.
I do think that Banks was definitely a target.
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I think the Giants wanted Sauce Gardner last year.
The comment that they watched the guys in their basket fly off the board does not automatically imply they went in the order of preference.
I said before the draft and after the draft, CB was the bigger need. It was also the harder one to fill given what Wink wants in a CB.
All good points Eric: re last year while it does appear that Sauce was the top guy on their wish list it may very well simply be that he was their highest graded player. My understanding is or was that Stingley, the other top ranked CB wasn't even on their short list, although its hard to tell because both corners were off the board by the time the Giants were up.
I see we're having trouble with the depleted comment. If someone says we were getting worried because the players we liked were coming off the board too fast (which is what he implied) and all the guys that were in fact coming off the board were from POS X then one can probably safely assume that the guys they wanted were from POS X.
I think your last point is ultimately the most interesting although I am still not sure why the lack of a #2 CB would be a bigger issue than the lack of a true #1 receiver but that's just me. I do agree that CB would be harder to fill than WR in the later rounds, but teams don't usually draft that way. I also have never believed that you necessarily build a team simply by addressing your biggest need or filling your biggest hole. You build a championship team by building the units that win games and in the NFL these days you can make a pretty good case that after QB the most important unit on the team in these days of pass-happy NFL are the receivers and I see on another thread the Giants' are rated something like 29th (which I think is too low) but ultimately you don't win championships by filling holes you do it by adding players that make impact plays.
Two things:
(1) I don't think any of the guys being discussed are #1 WRs.
(2) I think Banks has the ability to be a much better player than Jackson, and hence the #1 CB. In addition, CB may be the most important position in Wink's defense. Everything is predicated on his CBs being left alone on an island.
You can't scheme to cover opposing WRs? It is called the zone....
In the past possibly, but in recent years there has been a premium on WRs. Of course, a ton of really good WRs have come out.
I don't think anyone was thrilled with this WR class.
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. You can scheme to get open receivers, you can't scheme to cover opposing receivers.
You can't scheme to cover opposing WRs? It is called the zone....
This is correct, but Wink doesn't want to run zone.
Eric: This last point I agree with 100%. Hyatt certainly provides the explosive, big-play threat that I am not sure any of the first-round guys did. And let me repeat. In the end I think the Giants did end up with in many ways the best of both worlds the way the draft worked out. We got three first-round quality players when we went into the thing with one top 50 pick.
re your earlier I agree with your comments to a point. Which isn't my point. Fact is what you or I or anyone on this site thinks is in the end totally irrelevant. What matters is what the Giants think. And as I have been saying almost all the evidence points going into this draft points in the direction of the Giants at least hoping to get one of the top wrs. There is almost evidence that I can see suggesting they went into the thing with CB as their first priority.
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In comment 16113736 NorcalNYG said:
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. You can scheme to get open receivers, you can't scheme to cover opposing receivers.
You can't scheme to cover opposing WRs? It is called the zone....
This is correct, but Wink doesn't want to run zone.
No not normally. It isn't his preferred defense. But the point is you can scheme to cover WRs if you want to do so.
I think this goes too far. If CB is more highly rated than WR then it is by a whisker at most.
Would suggest this particular 2023 class had stronger top-end prospects at the CB position versus top-end of WRs. And Schoen agreed which is why he ultimately waited to address WR in Rd3.
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. You can scheme to get open receivers, you can't scheme to cover opposing receivers.
You can't scheme to cover opposing WRs? It is called the zone....
I meant to sat we can scheme wrs open but we can't, in our lives situation. Also zone d against a dominant passing attack is asking for trouble. Good qbs and receivers dissect zone d
We will run wild, the short passing game will be wide open, 2nd and 2 or 3 all year long. This will give us more opportunities for big plays. Don't sleep on Waller, Kafka understands how to use TE's.
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In comment 16113736 NorcalNYG said:
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. You can scheme to get open receivers, you can't scheme to cover opposing receivers.
You can't scheme to cover opposing WRs? It is called the zone....
Good qbs and receivers dissect zone d
They do it against man too and it is more dangerous as everyone is watching their man and there isn't help. You need two top CB to play effective man - hard to have two CBs that good on one roster.
I do prefer man to man, that being said.
Its not rocket science! Once Seattle took JSN the Giants still knew they would get one of the three remaining receivers and/or Banks no matter what happened on picks 21-22-23. That was guaranteed. Simple math. And he said they were sweating it out because they were being depleted with the WRs coming off the board. I do not know how many times I have to say. IF THE GIANTS WANTED BANKS THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN CHEERING THE WRS COMING OFF THE BOARD AT THAT POINT. THEY WEREN'T! THEY WERE SWEATING BECAUSE THE WRS WERE COMING OFF. THE BOARD!
Yeah, not rocket science, but I'm struggling to understand what I see as a breakdown in logic that gets you to that conclusion as the only reasonable one.
It's not that I didn't see your statement the first 3 times before you yelled it. It's that I disagree with the logic behind the statement and I tried to show a hypothetical that represented an alternate (and I think reasonable) explanation. They may have wanted either Banks or a WR and were at risk of losing both options.
I think part of our disagreement may come from the fact that I read Schoen's statement as they were sweating because they were NOT guaranteed to get Banks or any of the WRs unless they traded with Jax. You seem to think the Jax trade itself was guaranteed so they shouldn't have been sweating, but the "getting depleted" comment was in response to a prompt and an explanation for why they made the trade. They were sweating about the possibility of losing their guy if they didn't make the trade, so they made the trade.
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I will throw this out there: Hyatt has potentially greater upside as a #1 WR than anyone drafted in the first round, including Jaxon Smith-Njigba. (I think he will be outstanding as a slot receiver in that Seattle offense, but he's not an outside guy).
Absolutely. No one else ran by SEC corners the way he did. This will be a top 10 in the NFL offense if things go normally. If Hyatt successfully beats NFL corners over the top, top 5.
We will run wild, the short passing game will be wide open, 2nd and 2 or 3 all year long. This will give us more opportunities for big plays. Don't sleep on Waller, Kafka understands how to use TE's.
All contingent on the play of the OL, of course.
Pick 18: JSN 12th ranked on GBN board(for our 1st 3rd and 5th)
2nd round: o'cyrus Torrence (35th ranked at GBN)
4th: Darius Rush (52nd ranked at GBN)
5th: Dewayne Mcbride (84th on GBN)
I liked Darius Rush a lot more than the NFL did too, I think he could be special. Still can't believe he went at the top of round 5. This draft wouldn't be terrible, JSN is best suited to the slot but who knows maybe he could be a #1. He rarely faced opposing teams best defenders as he played with top outside receivers throughout his career, so it's hard to project. Torrence could be an outstanding guard, I don't know how his wits project to center.
Here's a hypothetical draft board ranking of players:
#1-#15 let's just assume the first 15 players drafted were the same 15 players on this board
#16 Banks
#17 JSN
#18 Forbes
#19 Gonzalez
#20 Flowers
#21 Addison
#22 Johnston
Now, #16 through #22 are lumped together in a tight group, so the team would be happy with any of them and wouldn't necessarily feel the need to trade up to get any of them if the others are available, but the above is their order of preference if more than one were available. But after #22, they feel there's a drop off on the board to #23 Porter - enough of a drop off that they'd feel compelled to make a reasonable trade to avoid it.
Now with the Jags pick coming up, all of those players are gone (as well as a few players they had ranked lower) except for Banks. In other words, the list was "getting depleted."
So things were tense because of the possibility that no player in that group would be available (not just that no WR out of the group would be available) and the team made the trade to get Banks.
What is the logic that makes your WR assumption obvious and this hypothetical less reasonable?
+1
And Schoen told you which one it was. If Banks was the target they would have been thrilled that it was the receivers coming off the board at 21-22-23. They weren't. They were sweating because they felt they were 'getting depleted' with the receivers were coming off the board. And the only interpretation that one can take from that is that they weren't happy the WRs were coming off the board. Why? Because they wanted one of them. And no amount of mental gymnastics is going to change that timeline.
And Schoen told you which one it was. If Banks was the target they would have been thrilled that it was the receivers coming off the board at 21-22-23. They weren't. They were sweating because they felt they were 'getting depleted' with the receivers were coming off the board. And the only interpretation that one can take from that is that they weren't happy the WRs were coming off the board. Why? Because they wanted one of them. And no amount of mental gymnastics is going to change that timeline.
The question was did it get tense when it came to picks 20, 21, 22? Yes it was pretty tense (paraphrased). He never said it got tense after, just that it was tense during those picks, of course it was because they were seeing who they were going to end up with and seeing if their top guy would last. That top guy could have been Flowers or Johnston or Banks. The quote really doesn't reveal anything about their big board, it merely shows that they were tense during the picks right before there's which seems like a given.
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In comment 16113264 NorcalNYG said:
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The room could have been tense as the receivers went off the board because they were unable to trade up for Banks and they were worried the Ravens or Vikings were going to take him. Thus, it was tense as each team picked receivers because they were anxiously hoping Banks wouldn't be picked. Can't you see that possibility? It might not be so simple as "The room was tense as the wrs got picked because we wanted a widereceiver". I think Schoen is a lot more nuanced in his approach than to say something like that. I think he's much more likely to say the room was tense as the receivers came off the board (because Banks was expected to be taken by 2 of the 4 teams that selected WRs and they were praying Banks made it past the Ravens and Vikings). When the Ravens were on the clock everyone was tensely waiting to see if they took Banks. They didn't take Banks and they then tensely waited to see if the Vikings would take Banks. Then when they didn't select him, boom a big sigh of relief and pulled the trigger on the tradeup for their target.
Norcal: Its certainly a possibility that the Giants were tense because they were afraid they were going to lose their man. But in that scenario you'd think they'd be happy the WRs were the ones being chosen not that they were being 'depleted.'
It would have been tense as they came off the board and then suddenly happy/relieved after they came off the board technically?
Most likely scenario to me is the Giants had a few players with similar rankings, includes some of the WRs that were picked ahead of them AND Banks. They wanted one of the players in that group of players and they were starting to come off the board. There had to be a drop off after Banks or they wouldn’t trade up one spot to get him.
And Schoen told you which one it was. If Banks was the target they would have been thrilled that it was the receivers coming off the board at 21-22-23. They weren't. They were sweating because they felt they were 'getting depleted' with the receivers were coming off the board. And the only interpretation that one can take from that is that they weren't happy the WRs were coming off the board. Why? Because they wanted one of them. And no amount of mental gymnastics is going to change that timeline.
You are making assumptions about the timeline out as facts. But even assuming the first part of the timeline is accurate, it still doesn't change the fact that my "convoluted" hypothetical is just as reasonable an explanation as yours.
Reporter: "On the decision to trade up to number 24."
Schoen: "The way the board was breaking down, we were getting depleted."
Then Schoen a bit later: "There were receivers going off the board, and lot of corners were going."
So JSN gets picked a few picks after a couple corners were picked. Things are getting depleted, because now both corners and WRs are going. So 3 seconds later (your timeline) he feels tense enough that he needs to get on the phone with Jags to confirm the deal was still a go. Why do you assume things were only tense after that? If he had three WR and Banks all in mind, there was still the possibility that some other player would get picked before 24, making the trade unnecessary and easing his mind. But the WRs were getting picked, necessitating the trade (assuming my earlier hypothetical rankings) and therefore causing more tension than otherwise. So yeah, tense when the corners and WRs started getting picked, and also tense when even more WRs were getting picked.
That's not mental gymnastics. That's a simple alternate explanation of what went on and the comments about it afterwards.
To be clear, I don't think anybody is claiming your timeline and guess as to the Giants' thinking all along is wrong - just that your insistence that it is the only rational explanation is wrong.
Most likely scenario to me is the Giants had a few players with similar rankings, includes some of the WRs that were picked ahead of them AND Banks. They wanted one of the players in that group of players and they were starting to come off the board. There had to be a drop off after Banks or they wouldn’t trade up one spot to get him.
Well, you obviously didn't do the math either.
;-)
And Schoen told you which one it was. If Banks was the target they would have been thrilled that it was the receivers coming off the board at 21-22-23. They weren't. They were sweating because they felt they were 'getting depleted' with the receivers were coming off the board. And the only interpretation that one can take from that is that they weren't happy the WRs were coming off the board. Why? Because they wanted one of them. And no amount of mental gymnastics is going to change that timeline.
Flaw 1: You are assuming their short list was Banks and 3 WRs after JSN was taken
Flaw 2: You can't fathom Schoen was simply tense because his top CB target in Banks was still on the board and he was still several teams away from picking at #24
Flaw 3: You suggest Schoen/Giants weren't happy only because the WRs were coming off the board. But overlook the fact that somehow they became thrilled the moment they had to pick and ecstatic Banks was still there. If you are going to play Psychologist (in addition to all this complicated math) then please remedy this.
Flaw 4: You have consistently preached Rd1 for Giants was ONLY about the WRs and can't imagine a CB was in play. And these posts continue that rigid, inflexible thinking.
I wasn't going to respond to this thread any more but on further review I felt I did have to respond to this one which gets just about everything wrong.
Flaw 1: You are assuming their short list was Banks and 3 WRs after JSN was taken
Because the Giants traded up to get Banks at #24 we can fairly safely assume he was the last guy on their short list. If there were others - say Joey Porter - it is highly unlikely they would have traded up.
Flaw 2: You can't fathom Schoen was simply tense because his top CB target in Banks was still on the board and he was still several teams away from picking at #24
I have been over this several times. I would indeed fathom that that is why Schoen was tense if all he said was 'it was intense.' But he added that they were tense because 'we were getting depleted' at the same time as the WRs were coming off the board.
Flaw 3: You suggest Schoen/Giants weren't happy only because the WRs were coming off the board. But overlook the fact that somehow they became thrilled the moment they had to pick and ecstatic Banks was still there. If you are going to play Psychologist (in addition to all this complicated math) then please remedy this.
I have been following the draft for going on 50 years now and in all that time I have never seen a GM come out of the draft room and not say 'we got our guy!' Its what they do. And I don't want to get ahead of myself but I reread the schoen/Daboll pressers and I came away each time thinking they really weren't as effusive as one would normally expect an NFL GM to be about his first round pick. Maybe a couple of people out there without a horse in this race could do that and give an opinion.
The other thing that was kind of interesting re their response was that at one point Daboll says 'you can never have enough corners that can cover. And if that sounds eerily familiar it echoes Accorsi's famous comment in 2006 when the Giants chose Kiwanuka 'you can never have enough pass rushers!' which was said more in resignation than celebration because the Giants really wanted another player at the time but Kiwi was too highly-rated to pass on, although I would also note that there does seem to be a different context to Daboll's comments!
Flaw 4: You have consistently preached Rd1 for Giants was ONLY about the WRs and can't imagine a CB was in play. And these posts continue that rigid, inflexible thinking.
Actually I am an atheist so I would never preach. And I have admitted that my biggest misjudgement in all of this earlier on was that I had the impression that the Giants were all-in on a receiver such that if they didn't get one in the first either by trading up or at #25 they would then likely trade down and get one later on. What I forgot was that it is still about the players and not the position and that value really matters. My bad.
At the same time I have no idea what you are talking about because I clearly include Banks on the Giants short list above. You can't argue it both ways! In fact, one guy earlier in this debate criticized me for being flexible. WTF!
I have been over this several times. I would indeed fathom that that is why Schoen was tense if all he said was 'it was intense.' But he added that they were tense because 'we were getting depleted' at the same time as the WRs were coming off the board.
He said he was tense in regards to one question and said they were getting depleted responding to a separate question.
Q. On the decision to trade up to pick 24.
JOE SCHOEN: The way it went down and the way the board fell, we were getting depleted...
Q. As it was unfolding today, maybe until about pick No. 19, it looked like it was playing out well for you. Even if you were looking at receivers, how tense does that start to get once it got to like 20, 21, 22?
JOE SCHOEN: I would say it got pretty tense.
You're fundamental mistake that we are trying to highlight is merging these two quotes into one, when in reality they are separate responses to separate questions.
He's just saying it was tense in the picks before ours, that is an obvious question and answer. The question before was asking why he traded up to 24 and his response was also very obvious in stating we were down to one top target and didn't want a CB needy team behind us sniping him.
You're incorrectly merging those two questions and connecting dots that simply aren't there. He never said it was getting tense after the run on WRs because our draft board was being depleted, they were separate questions and obvious responses. The responses never even mentioned it getting tense after picks 20-23, he said it got tense when it got to those picks. And the depleted comment was merely in regards to why we traded up, an obvious response to an obvious question.
Q. On the decision to trade up to pick 24.
JOE SCHOEN: The way it went down and the way the board fell, we were getting depleted...
Q. As it was unfolding today, maybe until about pick No. 19, it looked like it was playing out well for you. Even if you were looking at receivers, how tense does that start to get once it got to like 20, 21, 22?
JOE SCHOEN: I would say it got pretty tense.
Norcal: You are absolutely correct. Read that way (which is the way it is written) it makes it much more ambiguous than I was thinking and I can clearly see your point. Doesn't prove that Banks was THE target, but it also doesn't show that he wasn't. I will have to go and chew on that for awhile, although it will not change my thinking that the Giants had a terrific draft and may very well have made themselves a better team more than any other team in the league.
And as a draft guy the question that keeps rattling around my brain is what Section125 raised and that's what happened to the wr class overall this year. I know the top guys all had warts, but still that 2 RBs AND an ILB all went before the top WR is hard to fathom. Even more perplexing is the fact that all the second -tier receivers other than Mingo like Hyatt, Downs, Tillman, and Mims who were thought to be potential late first round candidates all ended up still on the board in the middle of the third round. In the end to our benefit but still perplexing.
In comment 16114505 Colin@gbn said:
I wasn't going to respond to this thread any more but on further review I felt I did have to respond to this one which gets just about everything wrong.
Flaw 1: You are assuming their short list was Banks and 3 WRs after JSN was taken
Because the Giants traded up to get Banks at #24 we can fairly safely assume he was the last guy on their short list. If there were others - say Joey Porter - it is highly unlikely they would have traded up. YOU'RE MISSING THE POINT. IT'S NOT THAT THERE MAY HAVE BEEN MORE THAN 4 GUYS ON THE JOE SCHOEN SHORT-LIST AFTER THE JSN PICK. THE POINT IS THAT MORE LIKELY THERE WERE LESS AND POSSIBLY EVEN ONLY ONE...BANKS. A GBN SHORT-LIST PEPPERED WITH WRS DOESN'T MEAN IT WAS JOE SCHOEN'S.
Flaw 2: You can't fathom Schoen was simply tense because his top CB target in Banks was still on the board and he was still several teams away from picking at #24
I have been over this several times. I would indeed fathom that that is why Schoen was tense if all he said was 'it was intense.' But he added that they were tense because 'we were getting depleted' at the same time as the WRs were coming off the board. THE TENSION WAS DUE TO JOE SCHOEN'S SHORT LIST BEING SHORTER THAN THE ACTUAL NUMBER OF TEAMS BETWEEN HIM AND PICK #24. TIME TO FACE THE MUSIC HERE.
Flaw 3: You suggest Schoen/Giants weren't happy only because the WRs were coming off the board. But overlook the fact that somehow they became thrilled the moment they had to pick and ecstatic Banks was still there. If you are going to play Psychologist (in addition to all this complicated math) then please remedy this.
I have been following the draft for going on 50 years now and in all that time I have never seen a GM come out of the draft room and not say 'we got our guy!' Its what they do. And I don't want to get ahead of myself but I reread the schoen/Daboll pressers and I came away each time thinking they really weren't as effusive as one would normally expect an NFL GM to be about his first round pick. Maybe a couple of people out there without a horse in this race could do that and give an opinion.
The other thing that was kind of interesting re their response was that at one point Daboll says 'you can never have enough corners that can cover. And if that sounds eerily familiar it echoes Accorsi's famous comment in 2006 when the Giants chose Kiwanuka 'you can never have enough pass rushers!' which was said more in resignation than celebration because the Giants really wanted another player at the time but Kiwi was too highly-rated to pass on, although I would also note that there does seem to be a different context to Daboll's comments! BASICALLY CONJECTURE TO FIT YOUR POSITION. IT WAS DESCRIBED THE NYG WARROOM WAS IN ELATION THE MOMENT THE CARD WAS SENT IN WITH BANKS NAME. THIS WASN'T SOME PRE-REHEARSAL FOR A MEDIA SESSION A FEW HOURS LATER. IN YOUR OPINION JOE SCHOEN SHOULD HAVE MOVED FROM TENSE TO DISTRAUGHT WHEN HE MISSED OUT ON THE "ELITE WR GROUP". YET HE WASN'T, AT ALL.
Flaw 4: You have consistently preached Rd1 for Giants was ONLY about the WRs and can't imagine a CB was in play. And these posts continue that rigid, inflexible thinking.
Actually I am an atheist so I would never preach. And I have admitted that my biggest misjudgement in all of this earlier on was that I had the impression that the Giants were all-in on a receiver such that if they didn't get one in the first either by trading up or at #25 they would then likely trade down and get one later on. What I forgot was that it is still about the players and not the position and that value really matters. My bad.
At the same time I have no idea what you are talking about because I clearly include Banks on the Giants short list above. You can't argue it both ways! In fact, one guy earlier in this debate criticized me for being flexible. WTF!
YOU'RE ALL OVER THE PLACE. JUST YESTERDAY IT WAS THE GIANTS SPENT NO TIME CONCERNED WITH CBs AND A GUY LIKE BANKS WAS, AT BEST, A FALLBACK. TODAY, YOU ARE RESIGNED TO ADMITTING HE WAS ON THE SHORT LIST BUT STILL BEHIND THE WRs BECAUSE HE IS A GOOD PLAYER DESPITE THE POSITION. YES, QUITE FLEXIBLE.
Quote:
Q. On the decision to trade up to pick 24.
JOE SCHOEN: The way it went down and the way the board fell, we were getting depleted...
Q. As it was unfolding today, maybe until about pick No. 19, it looked like it was playing out well for you. Even if you were looking at receivers, how tense does that start to get once it got to like 20, 21, 22?
JOE SCHOEN: I would say it got pretty tense.
Norcal: You are absolutely correct. Read that way (which is the way it is written) it makes it much more ambiguous than I was thinking and I can clearly see your point. Doesn't prove that Banks was THE target, but it also doesn't show that he wasn't. I will have to go and chew on that for awhile, although it will not change my thinking that the Giants had a terrific draft and may very well have made themselves a better team more than any other team in the league.
And as a draft guy the question that keeps rattling around my brain is what Section125 raised and that's what happened to the wr class overall this year. I know the top guys all had warts, but still that 2 RBs AND an ILB all went before the top WR is hard to fathom. Even more perplexing is the fact that all the second -tier receivers other than Mingo like Hyatt, Downs, Tillman, and Mims who were thought to be potential late first round candidates all ended up still on the board in the middle of the third round. In the end to our benefit but still perplexing.
And I agree that it was very perplexing to see WRs go so late. It will be interesting to see which teams inevitably got some steals on WRs (I hope we are one of them, I think the Broncos with Mims at the end of round 2 will end up looking golden with a steal there too).