I was looking through some old material on the 1997-2000 New York Giants, and I have to admit that at the time, I don't think I appreciated how well those defenses played.
1997 New York Giants:
Led the NFL with a franchise-record 44 takeaways, including 27 interceptions Third in the NFL with 54 sacks. Not only did Strahan have 14 sacks, but Robert Harris had 10 and Keith Hamilton had 8 at defensive tackle! Jesse Armstead led the team with 132 tackles.
1998 New York Giants:
Giants led the NFL with 54 sacks. Strahan had 15, but Chad Bratzke also had 11. Giants picked off 19 more passes. Armstead had over 100 tackles again. 19 interceptions
1999 New York Giants:
Nine more sacks for Strahan (believe it or not, Cedric Jones was 2nd on the team with 7.5). 123 more tackles for Armstead. Percy Ellsworth picked off six passes as the team had 17.
2000 New York Giants:
The defense was second in the NFL against the run (72.3 yards a game) and fifth in points allowed (15.4 per game). Only twice did the defense give up more than 20 yard runs. Jessie Armstead led the team with 102 tackles – his fifth consecutive season with more than a hundred tackles – and was selected to his fourth straight Pro Bowl. Defensive tackle Keith Hamilton had the best season of his nine-year career, leading the team with 10 sacks.
That would have been a low scoring close game without that phantom holding call negating the pick.
No way they continue to air it out with Dilfer after that. The defense was deflated after that play.
44.
wow.
With Trent Dilfer at the helm
Plus really good supporting cast in hammer, bratzke, harris, sparks, wooten, ellsworth and later guys like Barrow, Garnes, Shaun Williams, etc
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That would have been a low scoring close game without that phantom holding call negating the pick.
No way they continue to air it out with Dilfer after that. The defense was deflated after that play.
Immediate total momentum reversal. The second that was called back you pretty much knew that was that.
A few things I loved about those teams.
As mentioned in this thread, the defenses.
December success.
Creative offenses.
Fassel had his shortcomings but his resume with NYGwas pretty good. People like to gripe about SB35 but the better team won that day. It’s tough to beat teams that boast historical units like that Ravens defense was.
true the offense was a no show, but I remember just screaming at the TV asking why they wouldn't pressure Dilfer. They were uncharacteristically passive in that game. Made no sense.
Think it would’ve been 7-7
We aren’t winning that game, offense couldn’t do anything.
But it may have been more interesting
44.
wow.
Similarly mind-blowing, in the other direction: 42 giveaways in 2010.
I seem to remember that being a key moment in the game.
As mentioned above, the BS holding call completely changed the game, as did the non-call on the Ravens' kickoff return.
Yes, the D couldn’t do their job, but a lot of it was due to the Ravens D which was greatly aided by the FACT that we couldn’t stop Trent Dilfer who did squat during the season after he was picked up by Baltimore
The Ravens were ahead 7-0 with 10:27 left in the 2nd Quarter when that occurred. The game would've been tied. I still don't think the Giants would've won, but they wouldn't have been as deflated IMO. Ravens were still the better team and probably win that game on Special Teams alone, even though Jermaine Lewis did fumble on a punt return in the 1st Quarter (which the Ravens wound up recovering).
SUPER BOWL 35 RAVENS GIANTS (1:11:20 mark of the video) - ( New Window )
By FAR!
Kerry Collins was shook in that game, 15-39 for just 112 yards, sacked 4 times and threw for 4 INTs!
I seem to remember that being a key moment in the game.
As mentioned above, the BS holding call completely changed the game, as did the non-call on the Ravens' kickoff return.
You're not wrong. Brandon Stokely burned Sehorn for about a 30-40 yard TD fairly early in the game, if I recall.
Also, obviously the defense wasn't great, but I remember the Ravens returned a punt (or Kickoff?) and an INT for a TD. That's 14 of their 34 points. Collins also had 3 more INTs and the Giants did nothing offensively. I don't remember explicitely and don't care to look it up, but I would have to assume the field position battle favored the Ravens. Defense could have played better, but 20 points under the circumstances isn't the awful performance people seem to be implying it was here.
+ 1 I still smh at that: call made and I screamed, 'No, no and no!!'
LOL.
You know that Fassel replaced Payton and starting calling plays himself in 2000 because Payton was so bad, right?
And you give credit to Reese for drafting well at RB and WR, but somehow fail to realize that Bradshaw, manningham, Cruz, nicks and Steve smith - in addition to Reese draft picks like JPP, Aaron Ross, Kenny Phillps, will beatty and linval Joseph - were KEY pieces to winning one and/or both SB wins, right?
And not to mention the FA signing of guys like David bass, Chris canty, Michael boley, antrelle rolle, who were all KEY contributors to the ‘11 run.
Wow, what a brutal take all around.
Agree with most of what you say. That said, the Vikes’ loss hurt me the most. Maybe because I was actually laughing (in disgust) at the incredulousness of it all. That it was even possible to blow a 24 point lead with around 18 minutes to play in a playoff game. Buffalo’s 34-3 dedicit to the Oilers still had 30 minutes to play, but 18 minutes or less? Impossible, right?
Still looking for someone who can play like Strahan and Hamilton.
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Against the 49rs was way worse then the Vikings loss. I have never been as devastated as I was after that 49rs game. Once again snipping and blaming each other, all on the head coach. Sorry, but my fondness with Fassel is almost nil. We had two great coordinators. Fox was excellent, as was Sean Payton. The meltdowns showed his ineptness. I have zero fondness for Fassel. Never did have any. The fact he never got another job speaks volumes. If he was good, he would have got another job. Just like Jerry Reese, who also sucked. Reese was good at adding wide recievers and running backs. That is where it begins and ends. Reese came to the Giants with a QB, very good offensive line, very good defense. Added a couple of pieces and morons give him credit for Super Bowl 42. That was Accorsi. The roster started its decline the moment he got here. We barely made one more run in 2011 with most of the players Accorsi got aging. I give credit to Coughlin for winning 2 Super Bowls with a flawed roster. I also give credit to Eli for being one of the clutches QB's there ever was. I give credit to Reese for ruining the franchise though. He is responsible for that. Fassel and Reese are two guys tge Giants would have been better off without.
LOL.
You know that Fassel replaced Payton and starting calling plays himself in 2000 because Payton was so bad, right?
And you give credit to Reese for drafting well at RB and WR, but somehow fail to realize that Bradshaw, manningham, Cruz, nicks and Steve smith - in addition to Reese draft picks like JPP, Aaron Ross, Kenny Phillps, will beatty and linval Joseph - were KEY pieces to winning one and/or both SB wins, right?
And not to mention the FA signing of guys like David bass, Chris canty, Michael boley, antrelle rolle, who were all KEY contributors to the ‘11 run.
Wow, what a brutal take all around.
Fassel stripped Payton of play calling in mid 2002.
By the time he left after the 2003 season, it was clear to everyone that he wore out his welcome. He and his team never did recover from the 49er playoff loss. We all know that. And 2003 was an utter disaster. You could tell he wanted out too.
But...
In hindsight, he worked some miracles with Dave Brown, Danny Kanell, and Kent Graham at QB. He brought Kerry Collins back from the dead. His 1997 team didn't lose a game in the NFC East. His teams owned the Eagles, something Parcells and Coughlin had trouble doing. The 2000 team had no business going to the Super Bowl, but it did and the 2000 NFC Championship is still probably one of my favorite Giants games of all time.
When you compare Fassel to McAdoo, Shurmur, and Judge, it's really no comparison.
Final note, it's hard to believe he's passed away.
When you compare Fassel to McAdoo, Shurmur, and Judge, it's really no comparison.
Final note, it's hard to believe he's passed away.
yes true -- but that's a low bar and certainly not in the last two years he coached. For those two years he was their equal in every way, and then like them he was rightfully tossed. His last year was an abomination.
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When you compare Fassel to McAdoo, Shurmur, and Judge, it's really no comparison.
Final note, it's hard to believe he's passed away.
yes true -- but that's a low bar and certainly not in the last two years he coached. For those two years he was their equal in every way, and then like them he was rightfully tossed. His last year was an abomination.
Yup
Just stick to cut and pasting, or will you ban me
Michael Strahan
Tiki Barber
Amani Toomer
Keith Hamilton
Jason Sehorn
Jessie Armstead
What was different in the 2003-2006 drafts? Better luck, and Jerry Reese. Full marks to Accorsi for landing Eli and the 2005 free agent class. Otherwise, meh.
Fassel was a solid HC and he deserves credit for bringing that staff together, his work with Kerry and having one outstanding season and a couple good ones.
Reese did a good job early. He was dreadful for years after. Ross was one of the worst hires in Giants history.
Lost in this was the role of TC restoring some of Young's principles. You think WM waited 10 years for TC to not let him do it his way? Snee, Tuck, McKenzie, Robbins, Plax and two RB's at 240 and 260 pound to start. Ernie never drafted a OL with a premium pick nor did he spend big money on a young FA. LT and fill in with parts.
Fassel was a solid HC and he deserves credit for bringing that staff together, his work with Kerry and having one outstanding season and a couple good ones.
Reese did a good job early. He was dreadful for years after. Ross was one of the worst hires in Giants history.
Lost in this was the role of TC restoring some of Young's principles. You think WM waited 10 years for TC to not let him do it his way? Snee, Tuck, McKenzie, Robbins, Plax and two RB's at 240 and 260 pound to start. Ernie never drafted a OL with a premium pick nor did he spend big money on a young FA. LT and fill in with parts.
What were Fox's defenses known for with the Giants? Would like to bring some of that back.
Yes McAddo made the playoffs in 2016 he beat the Eagles and the Cowboys and then played the Packers like Fassel did with the Ravens
The offense really took off with Toomer and Shockey leading the way but Ron Dixon also began contributing on offense as well.
Fassel stripped Payton of play calling in mid 2002.
Oops - meant to type 2002.
My point still stands. Payton was doing a poor enough job he got benched from his duties.
His entire post was nonsense.
A few things I loved about those teams.
As mentioned in this thread, the defenses.
December success.
Creative offenses.
Fassel had his shortcomings but his resume with NYGwas pretty good. People like to gripe about SB35 but the better team won that day. It’s tough to beat teams that boast historical units like that Ravens defense was.
This right here... The Fassel years were sunshine compared to the previous 10 years... and people still shit on Fassel. Good teams, A few great players, nothing great but surely better than the shit we witnessed recently ...
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That would have been a low scoring close game without that phantom holding call negating the pick.
No way they continue to air it out with Dilfer after that. The defense was deflated after that play.
I seem to remember that being a key moment in the game.
As mentioned above, the BS holding call completely changed the game, as did the non-call on the Ravens' kickoff return.
And didn't they forgo attempting to run for a 3rd and short early? They went into the game convinced they couldn't do anything. Yes, the Ravens were a great D. But, they had an excellent D of their own. They should have gone toe to toe and tried to steal a low scoring game.
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for us. The rebuilt OL couldn't deal with the Ravens' front seven. That was what really decided the game. We couldn't run or pass. The phantom hold on Hamilton most likely prolonged the inevitable. That being said, the game was still VERY much in doubt at the end of the 3rd qtr.
Well, we decided before the game we couldn't run. They came out trying to go deep, over and over. That's not who they were.
I realize our receivers weren’t on a par with the Mets or Jags receivers, but they were the only two teams who consistently ran 4 wide and they gave the Ravens fits. Yet, even with two weeks to prepare, their best chance to move the ball in offense imo, was to emulate what the Jags and Jets were able to do, even if, in their cases they ultimately lost.
Even at halftime, they didn’t bother to adjust on offense
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In comment 16116069 Dave on the UWS said:
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for us. The rebuilt OL couldn't deal with the Ravens' front seven. That was what really decided the game. We couldn't run or pass. The phantom hold on Hamilton most likely prolonged the inevitable. That being said, the game was still VERY much in doubt at the end of the 3rd qtr.
Well, we decided before the game we couldn't run. They came out trying to go deep, over and over. That's not who they were.
I realize our receivers weren’t on a par with the Mets or Jags receivers, but they were the only two teams who consistently ran 4 wide and they gave the Ravens fits. Yet, even with two weeks to prepare, their best chance to move the ball in offense imo, was to emulate what the Jags and Jets were able to do, even if, in their cases they ultimately lost.
Even at halftime, they didn’t bother to adjust on offense
Mets=Jets
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In comment 16116069 Dave on the UWS said:
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for us. The rebuilt OL couldn't deal with the Ravens' front seven. That was what really decided the game. We couldn't run or pass. The phantom hold on Hamilton most likely prolonged the inevitable. That being said, the game was still VERY much in doubt at the end of the 3rd qtr.
Well, we decided before the game we couldn't run. They came out trying to go deep, over and over. That's not who they were.
I realize our receivers weren’t on a par with the Mets or Jags receivers, but they were the only two teams who consistently ran 4 wide and they gave the Ravens fits. Yet, even with two weeks to prepare, their best chance to move the ball in offense imo, was to emulate what the Jags and Jets were able to do, even if, in their cases they ultimately lost.
Even at halftime, they didn’t bother to adjust on offense
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In comment 16116321 Matt M. said:
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In comment 16116069 Dave on the UWS said:
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for us. The rebuilt OL couldn't deal with the Ravens' front seven. That was what really decided the game. We couldn't run or pass. The phantom hold on Hamilton most likely prolonged the inevitable. That being said, the game was still VERY much in doubt at the end of the 3rd qtr.
Well, we decided before the game we couldn't run. They came out trying to go deep, over and over. That's not who they were.
I realize our receivers weren’t on a par with the Mets or Jags receivers, but they were the only two teams who consistently ran 4 wide and they gave the Ravens fits. Yet, even with two weeks to prepare, their best chance to move the ball in offense imo, was to emulate what the Jags and Jets were able to do, even if, in their cases they ultimately lost.
Even at halftime, they didn’t bother to adjust on offense
It's not so much that we decided to pass. It's that we decided to pass deep, over and over. Our D was top 5 in it's own right and Dilfer sucked. If we forced him to win the game, he may have given us some chances. I don't think we would run for a lot, but there is a lot more we could have done to play our game. Don't forget, that was Dayne's rookie year and he had almost 800 yards. We didn't do anything that got us there on either side of the ball.
Good points. That said, I remember how lousy our field position was for virtually the entire game, no?
That said, he gave us 3 really fun seasons in 97/00/02 and literally brought our offense into the modern era. He was at the helm of 2 of the most epic meltdowns we have ever seen in 97 against minn, and 02 SF. But he also gave us the 00 playoff run and the 97 season as a whole was just a breath of fresh air
Ultimately, he never got another shot because I think he had a little “smartest guy in the room” complex and could easily rub someone the wring way, but he did a LOT of positive things here
RIP
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In comment 16116020 gidiefor said:
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That would have been a low scoring close game without that phantom holding call negating the pick.
No way they continue to air it out with Dilfer after that. The defense was deflated after that play.
I've said it a million times. It wasn't a phantom call. That season the league specifically sought to crack down on defensive holding at the LOS. I believe Hamilton led the league in defensive holding calls in the regular season, or led all defensive linemen. So, that penalty was par for the course.
Matt:
Go to settings and set your playback speed to 25%, then you will see without question that Hamilton was actually held by the LG. At about 1:11:25 you can see that the guard is in a bad position and his only move was to hold KH.
Fwd to 1:12:18 and you will see the guard's hand on KH's collar and pulling down.
Meanwhile, at the top of the play, something is going on where their RB may have been grabbed a bit (hard to tell) as he was finished with his block and going out.
So maybe they had the wrong guy, as it was definitely not KH.
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I've said it a million times. It wasn't a phantom call. That season the league specifically sought to crack down on defensive holding at the LOS. I believe Hamilton led the league in defensive holding calls in the regular season, or led all defensive linemen. So, that penalty was par for the course.
Matt:
Go to settings and set your playback speed to 25%, then you will see without question that Hamilton was actually held by the LG. At about 1:11:25 you can see that the guard is in a bad position and his only move was to hold KH.
Fwd to 1:12:18 and you will see the guard's hand on KH's collar and pulling down.
Meanwhile, at the top of the play, something is going on where their RB may have been grabbed a bit (hard to tell) as he was finished with his block and going out.
So maybe they had the wrong guy, as it was definitely not KH.
The flag was thrown by the side judge (#66) at the bottom of the screen, so I doubt he was looking at the far (top) end of the line. It was a really bad call.
Exactly. The final score would've been 35-14 instead of 35-7.
That said, he gave us 3 really fun seasons in 97/00/02 and literally brought our offense into the modern era. He was at the helm of 2 of the most epic meltdowns we have ever seen in 97 against minn, and 02 SF. But he also gave us the 00 playoff run and the 97 season as a whole was just a breath of fresh air
Ultimately, he never got another shot because I think he had a little “smartest guy in the room” complex and could easily rub someone the wring way, but he did a LOT of positive things here
RIP
I remember hearing that he came across as very arrogant during his interview with the Buffalo Bills which lost him the offer
It has been 20 years and I'm not kidding if I start thinking about that game for longer than a minute or two or watch footage of it I start getting worked up angry all over again.
Somebody here made a pretty funny analogy something along the lines of that game was equivalent to coming home from a very nice day everything is sunny and perfect and positive to suddenly getting kicked in the nuts by your wife as she happily runs off with your best friend as you lay in pain on the floor
By the time he left after the 2003 season, it was clear to everyone that he wore out his welcome. He and his team never did recover from the 49er playoff loss. We all know that. And 2003 was an utter disaster. You could tell he wanted out too.
But...
In hindsight, he worked some miracles with Dave Brown, Danny Kanell, and Kent Graham at QB. He brought Kerry Collins back from the dead. His 1997 team didn't lose a game in the NFC East. His teams owned the Eagles, something Parcells and Coughlin had trouble doing. The 2000 team had no business going to the Super Bowl, but it did and the 2000 NFC Championship is still probably one of my favorite Giants games of all time.
When you compare Fassel to McAdoo, Shurmur, and Judge, it's really no comparison.
Final note, it's hard to believe he's passed away.
2003 was ruined by injuries, I sometimes wonder if that team stayed healthy if things might have turned out different.
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A million things had to go wrong for us to lose that SF game. And a million things did go wrong. It is still the worst Giants loss of my lifetime. No joke, but I took an hours, as in plural, walk after that game thinking about that game & if the Giants meant way too much to me. It hurt THAT badly.
It has been 20 years and I'm not kidding if I start thinking about that game for longer than a minute or two or watch footage of it I start getting worked up angry all over again.
Somebody here made a pretty funny analogy something along the lines of that game was equivalent to coming home from a very nice day everything is sunny and perfect and positive to suddenly getting kicked in the nuts by your wife as she happily runs off with your best friend as you lay in pain on the floor
And takes the dog. And leaves the kids.
TC would change that when he came in. KC was never going to have the chops of Eli but what could have helped him was having a 2007 OL or ideally the 2008 one.
Correct. Such a shame. What could have been...
Kerry Collins was shook in that game, 15-39 for just 112 yards, sacked 4 times and threw for 4 INTs!
True, he was shook but the team was also desperate, so he threw risky throws that didn't work out. at least, he was still trying to win the game.
they ran out of gas and holmes got hurt, so it was only Strahan who could rush well and they put 2 or 3 guys on him.
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on Fassel is mixed.
By the time he left after the 2003 season, it was clear to everyone that he wore out his welcome. He and his team never did recover from the 49er playoff loss. We all know that. And 2003 was an utter disaster. You could tell he wanted out too.
But...
In hindsight, he worked some miracles with Dave Brown, Danny Kanell, and Kent Graham at QB. He brought Kerry Collins back from the dead. His 1997 team didn't lose a game in the NFC East. His teams owned the Eagles, something Parcells and Coughlin had trouble doing. The 2000 team had no business going to the Super Bowl, but it did and the 2000 NFC Championship is still probably one of my favorite Giants games of all time.
When you compare Fassel to McAdoo, Shurmur, and Judge, it's really no comparison.
Final note, it's hard to believe he's passed away.
2003 was ruined by injuries, I sometimes wonder if that team stayed healthy if things might have turned out different.
exactly, especially the OL. if i remember correctly, we had 2 in-season FAs playing tackle, and 1 at guard. unbelievable!
mouse mcnally made chicken salad out of some terrible OL rooms and probably deserves a lot of credit for seubert, sean payton was obviously a real find, and john fox ran a really good unit his whole time there.
Resurrected Collins, and not sure anybody had the Giants as a super bowl contender going into '00. That NFC championship was as much fun as I've ever had watching the G-men.
And that '02 team would have been dangerous had they had a long snapper.
Good coach.
Yeah I think that was the worst loss for me. That's really one of the only times I think I physically broke something watching a game... lol. But that '97 Vikings loss was damn close... lol
Players came out later and admitted we were not prepared for that game from a scheme perspective. We had absolutely no answer for the Ravens defense.
They had such a fun defense that year. I loved our secondary and was so bummed when Sparks left the team. It was maddening watching them argue and fall apart at the end of that playoff game against the Denny Green Vikings though.
Some coaches are just made to be position coaches and no more.
Michael Barrow was also on that team and was a great, passionate leader.
The offense really took off with Toomer and Shockey leading the way but Ron Dixon also began contributing on offense as well.
We could not get first downs by running in short yardage and after Ike Hilliard went down after being blasted by Dawkins, we had no WR2. Our DL was also decimated at the end of the season.
I seem to remember that being a key moment in the game.
As mentioned above, the BS holding call completely changed the game, as did the non-call on the Ravens' kickoff return.
He did. He was beaten 1 v 1 on a post route that gave the Ravens a 7-0 lead. Once the Ravens were up, it seemed a lost cause. That was soon after the Hamilton hold.