Random encounter unexpectedly at Starbucks. Spoke to him briefly, told him I was a third generation huge Giants fan and thanked him for his contributions to the Giants. He was appreciative of the kind words and thanked me. Air Gilbride!
that everybody but Gilbride all received some nice leeway that offseason. If he didn't specifically get the screws put to him then I guess everybody else had a nice stash of "Get Out Of Jail Free" cards in their office drawers.
Quote:
“He (Gilbride) retired and fortunately it didn’t come to any type of situation where he had to be forced out,’’ Mara said Thursday in an interview on WFAN.
And then later in the same article
Quote:
There will not be another major shakeup to Coughlin’s staff despite the 7-9 finish.
“I just don’t think that merits cleaning house and blowing the whole thing up and bringing in a whole new staff in there,’’ Mara said. “There comes a time when you have to do that, I don’t think this is the time and I think people just have to be patient and accept the fact we had a lot of injuries this year.
“Yes, we have missed on some draft picks and some of our free-agent acquisitions haven’t worked out in the past year or two but I still have a lot of confidence in our staff here and our coaches and I think we will get it turned around.’’
If you are attempting to prove that some in the Giants wanted Gilbride out, yep, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. If you think this proves that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride then you might want to read it again.
Got it. So you agree Reese was responding for all the personnel moves from the time he was director forward. Thanks for being clear and straightforward.
No. I just posted Reese's words which were in defense of all the poor drafts.
To me it was someone who took responsibility and in the next sentence quickly throws everyone under the bus.
What I expect from leader is to take the bullets and then make moves with actions.
I didn't see anyone from the front office go. Just the coaches.
Got it. So you agree Reese was responding for all the personnel moves from the time he was director forward. Thanks for being clear and straightforward.
No. I just posted Reese's words which were in defense of all the poor drafts.
You're wobbling again Lucille, was Reese responsible or not responsible for the players in the time period he described?
Got it. So you agree Reese was responding for all the personnel moves from the time he was director forward. Thanks for being clear and straightforward.
No. I just posted Reese's words which were in defense of all the poor drafts.
You're wobbling again Lucille, was Reese responsible or not responsible for the players in the time period he described?
This is a yes or no one, you can do this.
It's not. It was just Reese's words and my comment about a poor statement after taking responsibility from a key leader in your organization.
Now if you are asking me what I think of Reese's performance overall there are plenty of threads where I have stated that. Just go back to all those threads where you posted the picture as a start when I or others questioned his work.
that everybody but Gilbride all received some nice leeway that offseason. If he didn't specifically get the screws put to him then I guess everybody else had a nice stash of "Get Out Of Jail Free" cards in their office drawers.
Quote:
“He (Gilbride) retired and fortunately it didn’t come to any type of situation where he had to be forced out,’’ Mara said Thursday in an interview on WFAN.
And then later in the same article
Quote:
There will not be another major shakeup to Coughlin’s staff despite the 7-9 finish.
“I just don’t think that merits cleaning house and blowing the whole thing up and bringing in a whole new staff in there,’’ Mara said. “There comes a time when you have to do that, I don’t think this is the time and I think people just have to be patient and accept the fact we had a lot of injuries this year.
“Yes, we have missed on some draft picks and some of our free-agent acquisitions haven’t worked out in the past year or two but I still have a lot of confidence in our staff here and our coaches and I think we will get it turned around.’’
If you are attempting to prove that some in the Giants wanted Gilbride out, yep, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. If you think this proves that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride then you might want to read it again.
Btw. How are those Bulldogs looking this year?
You keep saying "some in the Giants wanted Gilbride out" but that quote is attributed to Mara. He's not making that quote unless he was aligned with it, IMO. So it wasn't just a nebulous "some in the Giants" - it was some combination of Mara and/or Coughlin. No one else would have had a vote.
Would it be fair to ask if you think Coughlin would have possessed enough weight at that time to have told Mara no? IMO, Coughlin did have enough power to do so, but for whatever reason, he did not use it. That could be because Coughlin himself recognized that KG should go, or it could be because KG didn't want his job to be saved with a team that no longer wanted him.
But my personal belief is that Coughlin had enough autonomy over his staff that he could have saved KG if he wanted to. And when I combine that with the number of coordinators that TC fired during his time as NYG head coach and the regularity with which the Giants use "retirement" as their preferred method of terminating a staffer with dignity, I have a hard time bucketing KG into a different category.
The only difference was the narrative surrounding the send-off, IMO.
RE: RE: RE: Interesting context from the NY Post article I posted above yesterday
that everybody but Gilbride all received some nice leeway that offseason. If he didn't specifically get the screws put to him then I guess everybody else had a nice stash of "Get Out Of Jail Free" cards in their office drawers.
Quote:
“He (Gilbride) retired and fortunately it didn’t come to any type of situation where he had to be forced out,’’ Mara said Thursday in an interview on WFAN.
And then later in the same article
Quote:
There will not be another major shakeup to Coughlin’s staff despite the 7-9 finish.
“I just don’t think that merits cleaning house and blowing the whole thing up and bringing in a whole new staff in there,’’ Mara said. “There comes a time when you have to do that, I don’t think this is the time and I think people just have to be patient and accept the fact we had a lot of injuries this year.
“Yes, we have missed on some draft picks and some of our free-agent acquisitions haven’t worked out in the past year or two but I still have a lot of confidence in our staff here and our coaches and I think we will get it turned around.’’
If you are attempting to prove that some in the Giants wanted Gilbride out, yep, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. If you think this proves that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride then you might want to read it again.
Btw. How are those Bulldogs looking this year?
You keep saying "some in the Giants wanted Gilbride out" but that quote is attributed to Mara. He's not making that quote unless he was aligned with it, IMO. So it wasn't just a nebulous "some in the Giants" - it was some combination of Mara and/or Coughlin. No one else would have had a vote.
Would it be fair to ask if you think Coughlin would have possessed enough weight at that time to have told Mara no? IMO, Coughlin did have enough power to do so, but for whatever reason, he did not use it. That could be because Coughlin himself recognized that KG should go, or it could be because KG didn't want his job to be saved with a team that no longer wanted him.
But my personal belief is that Coughlin had enough autonomy over his staff that he could have saved KG if he wanted to. And when I combine that with the number of coordinators that TC fired during his time as NYG head coach and the regularity with which the Giants use "retirement" as their preferred method of terminating a staffer with dignity, I have a hard time bucketing KG into a different category.
The only difference was the narrative surrounding the send-off, IMO.
Coughlin would have had enough clout to say no to Mara. But, why would he have to if Gilbride was going to retire anyway? You don't believe Gilbride is telling the truth about wanting to retire if he could not get a HC position. I don't have any reason to doubt that he is telling the truth.
Again, there is not close to enough evidence for me that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride, certainly not any 'obvious evidence'.
Anyone that believes Coughlin screwed over Gilbride thinks that both Gilbride and Coughlin are lying.
Coughlin after Gilbride retired:
Quote:
Tom Coughlin Was Prepared to Fight for Kevin Gilbride: According to The Daily News, had Offensive Coordinator Kevin Gilbride not retired on Thursday, Head Coach Tom Coughlin was prepared to fight to keep Gilbride in his discussions with team President/CEO John Mara and General Manager Jerry Reese. Those organizational discussions reportedly began on Thursday and will continue into next week. The Daily News says, “Knowing Mara’s intention to replace Gilbride, Coughlin told at least one person ‘I’m not going to let that happen.'” The Daily News adds that it is unknown how far Coughlin was willing to go if Mara insisted on firing Gilbride. A source informed The Daily News that Coughlin told Gilbride he was going to fight for him, but Gilbride said there was no need since he had decided to retire.
“The first thing that I said to our owners is that I’m responsible for the coaches,” Coughlin said said on WFAN on Friday. “To think that there’s any one individual who is responsible for the circumstances that we found ourselves in, that’s crazy. Kevin Gilbride is an excellent football coach, he’s an excellent teacher and communicator. His players do respond to him. He works very, very hard at his trade. He has made his mark on this organization.”
Again, maybe Gilbride and Coughlin are both lying, but there still is not any solid evidence that they are lying or that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride. TC - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: RE: Interesting context from the NY Post article I posted above yesterday
Coughlin would have had enough clout to say no to Mara. But, why would he have to if Gilbride was going to retire anyway? You don't believe Gilbride is telling the truth about wanting to retire if he could not get a HC position. I don't have any reason to doubt that he is telling the truth.
Again, there is not close to enough evidence for me that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride, certainly not any 'obvious evidence'.
Christian made the point above regarding the timing of Gilbride's "retirement" which I think illustrates the likelihood that the "HC or else" explanation was just part of the narrative to try to prop KG up on his way out - in fact, I would argue that the very notion of someone declaring that they're retiring unless someone wants to give them a head coaching gig is incongruent with retirement in the first place.
If the goal was to help KG get a HC position, stepping down from his OC position does nothing to advance that. And let's be honest, if there weren't any HC offers from 2008-2012 (NYG finished top-10 on offense in each of those seasons, including 3rd in 2008 and 6th in 2012 - with both seasons approaching 27 PPG), it seems a little flimsy to use that after the 2013 season. KG might as well have said he was retiring if he couldn't be the starting QB - he was getting the same consideration leaguewide for either role.
Having said all that, it sounds (to me) like it did, for you, exactly what was intended, by providing just enough plausible deniability to cloud the issue on firing vs. resignation/retirement, and keeping blood off the hands of those who remained (I'm not sure why this is important to the Giants, but their SOP in these moments tells me that it is indeed important to them for their own reasons).
Anyone that believes Coughlin screwed over Gilbride thinks that both Gilbride and Coughlin are lying.
Coughlin after Gilbride retired:
Quote:
Tom Coughlin Was Prepared to Fight for Kevin Gilbride: According to The Daily News, had Offensive Coordinator Kevin Gilbride not retired on Thursday, Head Coach Tom Coughlin was prepared to fight to keep Gilbride in his discussions with team President/CEO John Mara and General Manager Jerry Reese. Those organizational discussions reportedly began on Thursday and will continue into next week. The Daily News says, “Knowing Mara’s intention to replace Gilbride, Coughlin told at least one person ‘I’m not going to let that happen.'” The Daily News adds that it is unknown how far Coughlin was willing to go if Mara insisted on firing Gilbride. A source informed The Daily News that Coughlin told Gilbride he was going to fight for him, but Gilbride said there was no need since he had decided to retire.
“The first thing that I said to our owners is that I’m responsible for the coaches,” Coughlin said said on WFAN on Friday. “To think that there’s any one individual who is responsible for the circumstances that we found ourselves in, that’s crazy. Kevin Gilbride is an excellent football coach, he’s an excellent teacher and communicator. His players do respond to him. He works very, very hard at his trade. He has made his mark on this organization.”
Again, maybe Gilbride and Coughlin are both lying, but there still is not any solid evidence that they are lying or that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride. TC - ( New Window )
This is a compelling passage - thanks for sharing.
Part of me reads that quote as an example of keeping blood off of Coughlin's hands (in the same manner that Mara tried to keep his own hands clean with Coughlin's resignation and Gettleman's retirement in subsequent years), but I admit that's purely my point of view, and I recognize that confirmation bias is quite possibly shaping my response to that excerpt.
In 2011 he signed a one year extension to remain with the team through 2012. After the SB a two year extension through 2014. Then another one year extension after 2014. Then the final one extension in 2015 that would keep him under contract through 2016.
Not exactly a ringing endorsement for your HC for some time imv.
GD. I get that, but you and I don't see eye to eye on that and there is nothing wrong with that. I still maintain after all of the points and conversations made in this thread that there is very little evidence (certainly not obvious in my eyes) that Coughlin did in Gilbride.
I am not sure we are advancing any further with this. You, Christian and Googs feel there is more than enough evidence to prove your theory. I, on the other hand don't not agree with it and won't unless something else is presented that I find to be solid enough to warrant a change of mind.
Some may see me as dug-in defending Coughlin here. While I admit I am not the most objective when it comes to Eli Manning, I don't have the same kind of emotional tie to Tom Coughlin.
In 2011 he signed a one year extension to remain with the team through 2012. After the SB a two year extension through 2014. Then another one year extension after 2014. Then the final one extension in 2015 that would keep him under contract through 2016.
Not exactly a ringing endorsement for your HC for some time imv.
You may be right on that. My thinking is that the Two Lombardi's would help support him.
that clearly things were getting stale, so he approached KG about it and in a classy move, which is not uncommon in sports, it was agreed that KG decided it was the right time to “retire.”
That was my take at the time and not much has changed to alter my thinking on this.
RE: Belichick signs one year extensions every year.
All of this fan fiction requires the bizarre belief that Coughlin was the principal decision maker over his staff and player personnel during the successful 8-year run.
And then in the wake of 8 years without a losing season, 4 playoffs bids, 5 winning seasons and two championships -- Coughlin was stripped of his decision making.
And the following 3 years Coughlin was a neutered puppy, dragged around on a leash by the evil Jerry Reese.
That's a hell of a knock on Coughlin and not the type of leader and guy I believe he was.
Another assumption from Dumber. What happens with one HC is the same standard for all others. Sounds logical.
I'm sorry, did you offer any evidence that it's not the same standard? That's the part where logic would come in, but you haven't provided anything that would suggest any logical reason for variance or differentiation.
I'm going to make this as clear as I can for you: You make things up to fit your story, and everyone can see you do it. You project your own insecurity about your middling intelligence onto others as well. And you resort to name calling when you feel threatened by the intelligence of those with whom you interact.
We all get it - you think Reese sucked. Great. He's been gone for five full seasons and we're on our second GM since his firing.
Do you think you might be able to carry on a conversation without bringing everything back to the one singular factor that you believe caused all others? Even if your version of the story was airtight (it's not), the repetition is tiresome, and your lack of ability to bring anything but that same repetitive story into every thread is now becoming the same sort of thing that led so many here to turn Terps into a meme.
If you're as intelligent as you claim, surely you're capable of discussing the Giants without relying on the same crutch of a topic. Let's see some proof of that for once.
RE: More than likely, TC wanted to move in another direction,
that clearly things were getting stale, so he approached KG about it and in a classy move, which is not uncommon in sports, it was agreed that KG decided it was the right time to “retire.”
That was my take at the time and not much has changed to alter my thinking on this.
This seems reasonable and requires absolutely no logical contortion to accept. I agree that this is likely the way that things played out.
All of this fan fiction requires the bizarre belief that Coughlin was the principal decision maker over his staff and player personnel during the successful 8-year run.
And then in the wake of 8 years without a losing season, 4 playoffs bids, 5 winning seasons and two championships -- Coughlin was stripped of his decision making.
And the following 3 years Coughlin was a neutered puppy, dragged around on a leash by the evil Jerry Reese.
That's a hell of a knock on Coughlin and not the type of leader and guy I believe he was.
Mara said TC had more say in personnel than any coach he knows of (or something to that effect).
I give Coughlin more credit for the team's success than Reese - outside of 2008, we never had the best team in the league (some of this was because Eli was a top ten QB and not top five). We didn't have rosters like the Colts or Saints or even Packers - teams that only managed to get one ring despite having top five teams for years.
But Reese was a huge contributor and I look back at his years fondly. The 2007 draft, Nicks, Phillips, and JPP picks all directly contributed to rings.
Reese failed post SB-42. But so did Coughlin. Does he not get any blame for the lack of development from Richburg/Pugh/Flowers?
Reese got a couple years extra he shouldn't have gotten. That and the fact Coughlin was the more public facing person during our Super Bowls years makes me think people want to blame Reese more. Which is fine.
GD. I get that, but you and I don't see eye to eye on that and there is nothing wrong with that. I still maintain after all of the points and conversations made in this thread that there is very little evidence (certainly not obvious in my eyes) that Coughlin did in Gilbride.
I am not sure we are advancing any further with this. You, Christian and Googs feel there is more than enough evidence to prove your theory. I, on the other hand don't not agree with it and won't unless something else is presented that I find to be solid enough to warrant a change of mind.
Some may see me as dug-in defending Coughlin here. While I admit I am not the most objective when it comes to Eli Manning, I don't have the same kind of emotional tie to Tom Coughlin.
Fair. And let's also remember that the origin of this argument was a completely separate poster claiming that Gilbride was fired in retaliation for speaking out about the offensive line prior to the 2013 season, and that Coughlin (with two championships in the past six years at that point) was neutered to such an extent that he was powerless to prevent Reese from exacting his revenge against that pesky blabbermouth offensive coordinator who broke ranks about the crumbling OL pipeline.
"You make things up to fit your story, and everyone can see you do it. You project your own insecurity about your middling intelligence onto others as well. And you resort to name calling when you feel threatened by the intelligence of those with whom you interact."
Interesting. Do you really think I am threatened by you?
I just enjoy how easily you get rattled and how you follow me around.
When it was the same two posters I used Frick and Frack. It repeated and I went to Dumb and Dumber.
7th year posting and two accurate nicknames for two posters is not a trend.
"You make things up to fit your story, and everyone can see you do it. You project your own insecurity about your middling intelligence onto others as well. And you resort to name calling when you feel threatened by the intelligence of those with whom you interact."
Interesting. Do you really think I am threatened by you?
I just enjoy how easily you get rattled and how you follow me around.
When it was the same two posters I used Frick and Frack. It repeated and I went to Dumb and Dumber.
7th year posting and two accurate nicknames for two posters is not a trend.
GD. I get that, but you and I don't see eye to eye on that and there is nothing wrong with that. I still maintain after all of the points and conversations made in this thread that there is very little evidence (certainly not obvious in my eyes) that Coughlin did in Gilbride.
I am not sure we are advancing any further with this. You, Christian and Googs feel there is more than enough evidence to prove your theory. I, on the other hand don't not agree with it and won't unless something else is presented that I find to be solid enough to warrant a change of mind.
Some may see me as dug-in defending Coughlin here. While I admit I am not the most objective when it comes to Eli Manning, I don't have the same kind of emotional tie to Tom Coughlin.
Fair. And let's also remember that the origin of this argument was a completely separate poster claiming that Gilbride was fired in retaliation for speaking out about the offensive line prior to the 2013 season, and that Coughlin (with two championships in the past six years at that point) was neutered to such an extent that he was powerless to prevent Reese from exacting his revenge against that pesky blabbermouth offensive coordinator who broke ranks about the crumbling OL pipeline.
Gotcha. I don't agree that Gilbride was fired for some sort of retaliation, nor do I think Coughlin was powerless in his requests.
"I gather the front office did not like his honesty and there is another article where he specifically said the coaching staff had been telling the front office we need to get some OL in here."
I posted parts of the article again because a few posters were claiming that he spoke only after being fired about the OL.
"I gather the front office did not like his honesty and there is another article where he specifically said the coaching staff had been telling the front office we need to get some OL in here."
I posted parts of the article again because a few posters were claiming that he spoke only after being fired about the OL.
"I gather the front office did not like his honesty and there is another article where he specifically said the coaching staff had been telling the front office we need to get some OL in here."
I posted parts of the article again because a few posters were claiming that he spoke only after being fired about the OL.
Where does it say he was fired for retaliation?
Looks like more twisting.....again.
I forgive you.
Just don't twist my words to fit your agenda. I understand your NPD and am sympathetic to this.
Stick to the relevant conversation.
Good summary to what happened to the Giants for you. In line with the thoughts of the majority of posters and Giants fans. Dig in if you must but best to find acceptance imv.
has, in this thread alone, botched a link, a reply, and a quote; and used the meaningless brain droppings of some random Twitter kid as a source.
How lucky are we to be in the presence of greatness! Link - ( New Window )
Copy and paste what I wrote. It comes right up. I care about the content and it highlights many things discussed on this and other threads with a good comparison to the Cowboys and Eagles.
Best to focus on you and say "I" not "we" when addressing me or whoever you choose to challenge for the day. Using "we" shows that deep insecurity that highlights your need for approval and looks weak imv.
My response wasn't aimed at you, my apologies if it came off that way.
What I believe is fan fiction is that on the back of one of the best runs in team history, an infamously controlling Tom Coughlin suddenly was being pushed around against his will.
Reasonable people can disagree on whether Gilbride left completely on his own accord or whether he was implicitly or explicitly sent that way.
I'd be shocked to learn Coughlin wasn't calling all the shots with his staff, and many of them with the roster.
My response wasn't aimed at you, my apologies if it came off that way.
What I believe is fan fiction is that on the back of one of the best runs in team history, an infamously controlling Tom Coughlin suddenly was being pushed around against his will.
Reasonable people can disagree on whether Gilbride left completely on his own accord or whether he was implicitly or explicitly sent that way.
I'd be shocked to learn Coughlin wasn't calling all the shots with his staff, and many of them with the roster.
Good summary to what happened to the Giants for you. In line with the thoughts of the majority of posters and Giants fans. Dig in if you must but best to find acceptance imv.
I know the irony will be completely lost on you -- but you linking to an amateur blog posting about Jerry Reese published nearly 3 years after Gilbride left -- and instructing anyone to stick to the relevant conversation is so ... you.
has, in this thread alone, botched a link, a reply, and a quote; and used the meaningless brain droppings of some random Twitter kid as a source.
How lucky are we to be in the presence of greatness! Link - ( New Window )
Copy and paste what I wrote. It comes right up. I care about the content and it highlights many things discussed on this and other threads with a good comparison to the Cowboys and Eagles.
Best to focus on you and say "I" not "we" when addressing me or whoever you choose to challenge for the day. Using "we" shows that deep insecurity that highlights your need for approval and looks weak imv.
If anyone other than you had linked to this guy, I'd assume it was satire. But you really thought it was a good source. You shouldn't worry about me looking weak, and trust me - you are hardly a challenge. I meant what I said earlier, though: I genuinely do feel sorry for you.
Good summary to what happened to the Giants for you. In line with the thoughts of the majority of posters and Giants fans. Dig in if you must but best to find acceptance imv.
I know the irony will be completely lost on you -- but you linking to an amateur blog posting about Jerry Reese published nearly 3 years after Gilbride left -- and instructing anyone to stick to the relevant conversation is so ... you.
Never change you little darling.
Looks like you missed all the stuff on the 2010-14 drafts and how poor they were that impacted the O and Gilbride.
There were plenty of things in that tweet that covered most of the time period where ultimately almost everyone got fired.
Interesting note on JR and Flowers and some parts are after KG but it still shows the same consistent draft of how poor drafts impacted the team 2012-17. Gilbride was just the first casualty.
To be fair I did struggle to make my way through that crayon drawing, but the bulk of that coloring book was about 2017. Remind me was that when Gilbride was coaching the XFL team or was that later?
Now hey, if you want to align yourself with world class musings like:
Quote:
Maybe Ben McAdoo can actually be a sufficient head coach. He’s only in his second year, and has a playoff appearance under his belt.
You go for it. Reminds me of The Smiths song Cemetry Gates.
"But Reese has more than enough examples of gross incompetence when it comes to assembling a roster. His two Super Bowl championships can no longer cushion him from the hot seat."
I don't follow him on Twitter. He came up when I searched the Raanan article on KG talking about the OL prior the being fired which a couple posters denied. That tweet goes back to 2010 but sums up a lot of issues discussed here and elsewhere. This guy compared the Giants to what Dallas, WFT Philly did during that time. The amount of Pro Bowlers is startling and goes back to KG's time and continues through 2017. This was especially true on the OL which KG warned of.
Reality was with the drafts of 2008-2017 it was going to end for a lot of people. KG just happened to be the first to go after 2013. That tweet has a lot of information that that shows the early issues causing KG's ouster that extended into 2017. They are tied together. KG was working with players from those 2010-13 drafts and the tweet points how just about every was gone by the 2017 season.
Not surprising that you took a small BM blurb from all that was in it but you are who you are.
I'm not surprised you're taking validation from a sloppy internet amateur whose long and winding drivel missed most of the nuance of a complex set of events -- and then came up with a bananas an embarrassing conclusion.
I'd almost suspect that guy is you, but he has a basic command of grammar, so probably not.
I'm not surprised you're taking validation from a sloppy internet amateur whose long and winding drivel missed most of the nuance of a complex set of events -- and then came up with a bananas an embarrassing conclusion.
I'd almost suspect that guy is you, but he has a basic command of grammar, so probably not.
"and then came up with a bananas an embarrassing conclusion"
What? Lol. Way to lead from the front.
Now to the content, if you see where KG was at fault and that the talent from the 2010-13 drafts (in tweet) or from the article above which highlights the 2007-12 I'll pay attention. I see a situation where it would be difficult for just about anyone to have significant success considering the amount of players who were out of the league shortly.
I'm not surprised you're taking validation from a sloppy internet amateur whose long and winding drivel missed most of the nuance of a complex set of events -- and then came up with a bananas an embarrassing conclusion.
I'd almost suspect that guy is you, but he has a basic command of grammar, so probably not.
"and then came up with a bananas an embarrassing conclusion"
What? Lol. Way to lead from the front.
I'm not surprised you lean on a guy whose thesis is:
Quote:
Maybe Ben McAdoo can actually be a sufficient head coach. He’s only in his second year, and has a playoff appearance under his belt.
With the benefit of hindsight, a sharper person probably reads that drivel and decides "this child does repeat some of my incessant ramblings, but his conclusion is bananas and embarrassing. Maybe I shouldn't offer that up as defense of my unsophisticated opinion."
But you keep consistent intellectual company. Congrats for your consistency.
I think these debates are (mostly) a blast. The best part about BBI is learning and debating football with smart people. I've learned a ton through the years from guys like Gatorade Dunk and you.
Quote:
“He (Gilbride) retired and fortunately it didn’t come to any type of situation where he had to be forced out,’’ Mara said Thursday in an interview on WFAN.
And then later in the same article
Quote:
There will not be another major shakeup to Coughlin’s staff despite the 7-9 finish.
“I just don’t think that merits cleaning house and blowing the whole thing up and bringing in a whole new staff in there,’’ Mara said. “There comes a time when you have to do that, I don’t think this is the time and I think people just have to be patient and accept the fact we had a lot of injuries this year.
“Yes, we have missed on some draft picks and some of our free-agent acquisitions haven’t worked out in the past year or two but I still have a lot of confidence in our staff here and our coaches and I think we will get it turned around.’’
If you are attempting to prove that some in the Giants wanted Gilbride out, yep, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. If you think this proves that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride then you might want to read it again.
Btw. How are those Bulldogs looking this year?
No. I just posted Reese's words which were in defense of all the poor drafts.
To me it was someone who took responsibility and in the next sentence quickly throws everyone under the bus.
What I expect from leader is to take the bullets and then make moves with actions.
I didn't see anyone from the front office go. Just the coaches.
I can't say I ever learned such a style.
...
Quote:
Got it. So you agree Reese was responding for all the personnel moves from the time he was director forward. Thanks for being clear and straightforward.
No. I just posted Reese's words which were in defense of all the poor drafts.
You're wobbling again Lucille, was Reese responsible or not responsible for the players in the time period he described?
This is a yes or no one, you can do this.
Quote:
In comment 16118330 christian said:
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Got it. So you agree Reese was responding for all the personnel moves from the time he was director forward. Thanks for being clear and straightforward.
No. I just posted Reese's words which were in defense of all the poor drafts.
You're wobbling again Lucille, was Reese responsible or not responsible for the players in the time period he described?
This is a yes or no one, you can do this.
It's not. It was just Reese's words and my comment about a poor statement after taking responsibility from a key leader in your organization.
Now if you are asking me what I think of Reese's performance overall there are plenty of threads where I have stated that. Just go back to all those threads where you posted the picture as a start when I or others questioned his work.
I think it's weird you posted a quote and can't answer yes or no if you agree with the quote.
But hey you do you Lucille.
I think it's weird you posted a quote and can't answer yes or no if you agree with the quote.
But hey you do you Lucille.
I posted the quote to show someone throwing others under the bus. You said TC did this to KG but I don't see any evidence of this.
You make your assessment and I'll have mine.
Again, I have made clear what I think Jerry's role was. I even termed it the "great destruction of the LOS" and clearly laid out my reasoning.
Follow the pictures "clock".
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that everybody but Gilbride all received some nice leeway that offseason. If he didn't specifically get the screws put to him then I guess everybody else had a nice stash of "Get Out Of Jail Free" cards in their office drawers.
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“He (Gilbride) retired and fortunately it didn’t come to any type of situation where he had to be forced out,’’ Mara said Thursday in an interview on WFAN.
And then later in the same article
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There will not be another major shakeup to Coughlin’s staff despite the 7-9 finish.
“I just don’t think that merits cleaning house and blowing the whole thing up and bringing in a whole new staff in there,’’ Mara said. “There comes a time when you have to do that, I don’t think this is the time and I think people just have to be patient and accept the fact we had a lot of injuries this year.
“Yes, we have missed on some draft picks and some of our free-agent acquisitions haven’t worked out in the past year or two but I still have a lot of confidence in our staff here and our coaches and I think we will get it turned around.’’
If you are attempting to prove that some in the Giants wanted Gilbride out, yep, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. If you think this proves that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride then you might want to read it again.
Btw. How are those Bulldogs looking this year?
You keep saying "some in the Giants wanted Gilbride out" but that quote is attributed to Mara. He's not making that quote unless he was aligned with it, IMO. So it wasn't just a nebulous "some in the Giants" - it was some combination of Mara and/or Coughlin. No one else would have had a vote.
Would it be fair to ask if you think Coughlin would have possessed enough weight at that time to have told Mara no? IMO, Coughlin did have enough power to do so, but for whatever reason, he did not use it. That could be because Coughlin himself recognized that KG should go, or it could be because KG didn't want his job to be saved with a team that no longer wanted him.
But my personal belief is that Coughlin had enough autonomy over his staff that he could have saved KG if he wanted to. And when I combine that with the number of coordinators that TC fired during his time as NYG head coach and the regularity with which the Giants use "retirement" as their preferred method of terminating a staffer with dignity, I have a hard time bucketing KG into a different category.
The only difference was the narrative surrounding the send-off, IMO.
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In comment 16118332 nygiantfan said:
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that everybody but Gilbride all received some nice leeway that offseason. If he didn't specifically get the screws put to him then I guess everybody else had a nice stash of "Get Out Of Jail Free" cards in their office drawers.
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“He (Gilbride) retired and fortunately it didn’t come to any type of situation where he had to be forced out,’’ Mara said Thursday in an interview on WFAN.
And then later in the same article
Quote:
There will not be another major shakeup to Coughlin’s staff despite the 7-9 finish.
“I just don’t think that merits cleaning house and blowing the whole thing up and bringing in a whole new staff in there,’’ Mara said. “There comes a time when you have to do that, I don’t think this is the time and I think people just have to be patient and accept the fact we had a lot of injuries this year.
“Yes, we have missed on some draft picks and some of our free-agent acquisitions haven’t worked out in the past year or two but I still have a lot of confidence in our staff here and our coaches and I think we will get it turned around.’’
If you are attempting to prove that some in the Giants wanted Gilbride out, yep, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. If you think this proves that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride then you might want to read it again.
Btw. How are those Bulldogs looking this year?
You keep saying "some in the Giants wanted Gilbride out" but that quote is attributed to Mara. He's not making that quote unless he was aligned with it, IMO. So it wasn't just a nebulous "some in the Giants" - it was some combination of Mara and/or Coughlin. No one else would have had a vote.
Would it be fair to ask if you think Coughlin would have possessed enough weight at that time to have told Mara no? IMO, Coughlin did have enough power to do so, but for whatever reason, he did not use it. That could be because Coughlin himself recognized that KG should go, or it could be because KG didn't want his job to be saved with a team that no longer wanted him.
But my personal belief is that Coughlin had enough autonomy over his staff that he could have saved KG if he wanted to. And when I combine that with the number of coordinators that TC fired during his time as NYG head coach and the regularity with which the Giants use "retirement" as their preferred method of terminating a staffer with dignity, I have a hard time bucketing KG into a different category.
The only difference was the narrative surrounding the send-off, IMO.
Coughlin would have had enough clout to say no to Mara. But, why would he have to if Gilbride was going to retire anyway? You don't believe Gilbride is telling the truth about wanting to retire if he could not get a HC position. I don't have any reason to doubt that he is telling the truth.
Again, there is not close to enough evidence for me that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride, certainly not any 'obvious evidence'.
Coughlin after Gilbride retired:
“The first thing that I said to our owners is that I’m responsible for the coaches,” Coughlin said said on WFAN on Friday. “To think that there’s any one individual who is responsible for the circumstances that we found ourselves in, that’s crazy. Kevin Gilbride is an excellent football coach, he’s an excellent teacher and communicator. His players do respond to him. He works very, very hard at his trade. He has made his mark on this organization.”
Again, maybe Gilbride and Coughlin are both lying, but there still is not any solid evidence that they are lying or that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride.
TC - ( New Window )
Again, there is not close to enough evidence for me that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride, certainly not any 'obvious evidence'.
Christian made the point above regarding the timing of Gilbride's "retirement" which I think illustrates the likelihood that the "HC or else" explanation was just part of the narrative to try to prop KG up on his way out - in fact, I would argue that the very notion of someone declaring that they're retiring unless someone wants to give them a head coaching gig is incongruent with retirement in the first place.
If the goal was to help KG get a HC position, stepping down from his OC position does nothing to advance that. And let's be honest, if there weren't any HC offers from 2008-2012 (NYG finished top-10 on offense in each of those seasons, including 3rd in 2008 and 6th in 2012 - with both seasons approaching 27 PPG), it seems a little flimsy to use that after the 2013 season. KG might as well have said he was retiring if he couldn't be the starting QB - he was getting the same consideration leaguewide for either role.
Having said all that, it sounds (to me) like it did, for you, exactly what was intended, by providing just enough plausible deniability to cloud the issue on firing vs. resignation/retirement, and keeping blood off the hands of those who remained (I'm not sure why this is important to the Giants, but their SOP in these moments tells me that it is indeed important to them for their own reasons).
Coughlin after Gilbride retired:
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Tom Coughlin Was Prepared to Fight for Kevin Gilbride: According to The Daily News, had Offensive Coordinator Kevin Gilbride not retired on Thursday, Head Coach Tom Coughlin was prepared to fight to keep Gilbride in his discussions with team President/CEO John Mara and General Manager Jerry Reese. Those organizational discussions reportedly began on Thursday and will continue into next week. The Daily News says, “Knowing Mara’s intention to replace Gilbride, Coughlin told at least one person ‘I’m not going to let that happen.'” The Daily News adds that it is unknown how far Coughlin was willing to go if Mara insisted on firing Gilbride. A source informed The Daily News that Coughlin told Gilbride he was going to fight for him, but Gilbride said there was no need since he had decided to retire.
“The first thing that I said to our owners is that I’m responsible for the coaches,” Coughlin said said on WFAN on Friday. “To think that there’s any one individual who is responsible for the circumstances that we found ourselves in, that’s crazy. Kevin Gilbride is an excellent football coach, he’s an excellent teacher and communicator. His players do respond to him. He works very, very hard at his trade. He has made his mark on this organization.”
Again, maybe Gilbride and Coughlin are both lying, but there still is not any solid evidence that they are lying or that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride. TC - ( New Window )
This is a compelling passage - thanks for sharing.
Part of me reads that quote as an example of keeping blood off of Coughlin's hands (in the same manner that Mara tried to keep his own hands clean with Coughlin's resignation and Gettleman's retirement in subsequent years), but I admit that's purely my point of view, and I recognize that confirmation bias is quite possibly shaping my response to that excerpt.
In 2011 he signed a one year extension to remain with the team through 2012. After the SB a two year extension through 2014. Then another one year extension after 2014. Then the final one extension in 2015 that would keep him under contract through 2016.
Not exactly a ringing endorsement for your HC for some time imv.
I am not sure we are advancing any further with this. You, Christian and Googs feel there is more than enough evidence to prove your theory. I, on the other hand don't not agree with it and won't unless something else is presented that I find to be solid enough to warrant a change of mind.
Some may see me as dug-in defending Coughlin here. While I admit I am not the most objective when it comes to Eli Manning, I don't have the same kind of emotional tie to Tom Coughlin.
In 2011 he signed a one year extension to remain with the team through 2012. After the SB a two year extension through 2014. Then another one year extension after 2014. Then the final one extension in 2015 that would keep him under contract through 2016.
Not exactly a ringing endorsement for your HC for some time imv.
You may be right on that. My thinking is that the Two Lombardi's would help support him.
That was my take at the time and not much has changed to alter my thinking on this.
Another assumption from Dumber. What happens with one HC is the same standard for all others. Sounds logical.
And then in the wake of 8 years without a losing season, 4 playoffs bids, 5 winning seasons and two championships -- Coughlin was stripped of his decision making.
And the following 3 years Coughlin was a neutered puppy, dragged around on a leash by the evil Jerry Reese.
That's a hell of a knock on Coughlin and not the type of leader and guy I believe he was.
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MoRe mAkE uP sTuFf fRoM yOu.
Another assumption from Dumber. What happens with one HC is the same standard for all others. Sounds logical.
I'm sorry, did you offer any evidence that it's not the same standard? That's the part where logic would come in, but you haven't provided anything that would suggest any logical reason for variance or differentiation.
I'm going to make this as clear as I can for you: You make things up to fit your story, and everyone can see you do it. You project your own insecurity about your middling intelligence onto others as well. And you resort to name calling when you feel threatened by the intelligence of those with whom you interact.
We all get it - you think Reese sucked. Great. He's been gone for five full seasons and we're on our second GM since his firing.
Do you think you might be able to carry on a conversation without bringing everything back to the one singular factor that you believe caused all others? Even if your version of the story was airtight (it's not), the repetition is tiresome, and your lack of ability to bring anything but that same repetitive story into every thread is now becoming the same sort of thing that led so many here to turn Terps into a meme.
If you're as intelligent as you claim, surely you're capable of discussing the Giants without relying on the same crutch of a topic. Let's see some proof of that for once.
That was my take at the time and not much has changed to alter my thinking on this.
This seems reasonable and requires absolutely no logical contortion to accept. I agree that this is likely the way that things played out.
And then in the wake of 8 years without a losing season, 4 playoffs bids, 5 winning seasons and two championships -- Coughlin was stripped of his decision making.
And the following 3 years Coughlin was a neutered puppy, dragged around on a leash by the evil Jerry Reese.
That's a hell of a knock on Coughlin and not the type of leader and guy I believe he was.
Mara said TC had more say in personnel than any coach he knows of (or something to that effect).
I give Coughlin more credit for the team's success than Reese - outside of 2008, we never had the best team in the league (some of this was because Eli was a top ten QB and not top five). We didn't have rosters like the Colts or Saints or even Packers - teams that only managed to get one ring despite having top five teams for years.
But Reese was a huge contributor and I look back at his years fondly. The 2007 draft, Nicks, Phillips, and JPP picks all directly contributed to rings.
Reese failed post SB-42. But so did Coughlin. Does he not get any blame for the lack of development from Richburg/Pugh/Flowers?
Reese got a couple years extra he shouldn't have gotten. That and the fact Coughlin was the more public facing person during our Super Bowls years makes me think people want to blame Reese more. Which is fine.
I am not sure we are advancing any further with this. You, Christian and Googs feel there is more than enough evidence to prove your theory. I, on the other hand don't not agree with it and won't unless something else is presented that I find to be solid enough to warrant a change of mind.
Some may see me as dug-in defending Coughlin here. While I admit I am not the most objective when it comes to Eli Manning, I don't have the same kind of emotional tie to Tom Coughlin.
Fair. And let's also remember that the origin of this argument was a completely separate poster claiming that Gilbride was fired in retaliation for speaking out about the offensive line prior to the 2013 season, and that Coughlin (with two championships in the past six years at that point) was neutered to such an extent that he was powerless to prevent Reese from exacting his revenge against that pesky blabbermouth offensive coordinator who broke ranks about the crumbling OL pipeline.
Interesting. Do you really think I am threatened by you?
I just enjoy how easily you get rattled and how you follow me around.
When it was the same two posters I used Frick and Frack. It repeated and I went to Dumb and Dumber.
7th year posting and two accurate nicknames for two posters is not a trend.
Interesting. Do you really think I am threatened by you?
I just enjoy how easily you get rattled and how you follow me around.
When it was the same two posters I used Frick and Frack. It repeated and I went to Dumb and Dumber.
7th year posting and two accurate nicknames for two posters is not a trend.
I forgive you.
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GD. I get that, but you and I don't see eye to eye on that and there is nothing wrong with that. I still maintain after all of the points and conversations made in this thread that there is very little evidence (certainly not obvious in my eyes) that Coughlin did in Gilbride.
I am not sure we are advancing any further with this. You, Christian and Googs feel there is more than enough evidence to prove your theory. I, on the other hand don't not agree with it and won't unless something else is presented that I find to be solid enough to warrant a change of mind.
Some may see me as dug-in defending Coughlin here. While I admit I am not the most objective when it comes to Eli Manning, I don't have the same kind of emotional tie to Tom Coughlin.
Fair. And let's also remember that the origin of this argument was a completely separate poster claiming that Gilbride was fired in retaliation for speaking out about the offensive line prior to the 2013 season, and that Coughlin (with two championships in the past six years at that point) was neutered to such an extent that he was powerless to prevent Reese from exacting his revenge against that pesky blabbermouth offensive coordinator who broke ranks about the crumbling OL pipeline.
Gotcha. I don't agree that Gilbride was fired for some sort of retaliation, nor do I think Coughlin was powerless in his requests.
I posted parts of the article again because a few posters were claiming that he spoke only after being fired about the OL.
Where does it say he was fired for retaliation?
Looks like more twisting.....again.
I posted parts of the article again because a few posters were claiming that he spoke only after being fired about the OL.
Where does it say he was fired for retaliation?
Looks like more twisting.....again.
I forgive you.
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"I gather the front office did not like his honesty and there is another article where he specifically said the coaching staff had been telling the front office we need to get some OL in here."
I posted parts of the article again because a few posters were claiming that he spoke only after being fired about the OL.
Where does it say he was fired for retaliation?
Looks like more twisting.....again.
I forgive you.
Just don't twist my words to fit your agenda. I understand your NPD and am sympathetic to this.
Stick to the relevant conversation.
Good summary to what happened to the Giants for you. In line with the thoughts of the majority of posters and Giants fans. Dig in if you must but best to find acceptance imv.
https://gothamsn.com/jerry-reese-giants-blame-211df934fb70
How lucky are we to be in the presence of greatness!
Link - ( New Window )
How lucky are we to be in the presence of greatness! Link - ( New Window )
Copy and paste what I wrote. It comes right up. I care about the content and it highlights many things discussed on this and other threads with a good comparison to the Cowboys and Eagles.
Best to focus on you and say "I" not "we" when addressing me or whoever you choose to challenge for the day. Using "we" shows that deep insecurity that highlights your need for approval and looks weak imv.
My response wasn't aimed at you, my apologies if it came off that way.
What I believe is fan fiction is that on the back of one of the best runs in team history, an infamously controlling Tom Coughlin suddenly was being pushed around against his will.
Reasonable people can disagree on whether Gilbride left completely on his own accord or whether he was implicitly or explicitly sent that way.
I'd be shocked to learn Coughlin wasn't calling all the shots with his staff, and many of them with the roster.
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No fan fiction from this POV
My response wasn't aimed at you, my apologies if it came off that way.
What I believe is fan fiction is that on the back of one of the best runs in team history, an infamously controlling Tom Coughlin suddenly was being pushed around against his will.
Reasonable people can disagree on whether Gilbride left completely on his own accord or whether he was implicitly or explicitly sent that way.
I'd be shocked to learn Coughlin wasn't calling all the shots with his staff, and many of them with the roster.
It’s cool man
Stick to the relevant conversation.
Good summary to what happened to the Giants for you. In line with the thoughts of the majority of posters and Giants fans. Dig in if you must but best to find acceptance imv.
https://gothamsn.com/jerry-reese-giants-blame-211df934fb70
I know the irony will be completely lost on you -- but you linking to an amateur blog posting about Jerry Reese published nearly 3 years after Gilbride left -- and instructing anyone to stick to the relevant conversation is so ... you.
Never change you little darling.
Back at you. You know what I think of you, your opinions, and football knowledge. Very good conversation and debate.
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has, in this thread alone, botched a link, a reply, and a quote; and used the meaningless brain droppings of some random Twitter kid as a source.
How lucky are we to be in the presence of greatness! Link - ( New Window )
Copy and paste what I wrote. It comes right up. I care about the content and it highlights many things discussed on this and other threads with a good comparison to the Cowboys and Eagles.
Best to focus on you and say "I" not "we" when addressing me or whoever you choose to challenge for the day. Using "we" shows that deep insecurity that highlights your need for approval and looks weak imv.
Some other hits from your new favorite source:
Give Eli Apple a break
Time for Owamagbe Odighizuwa to shine
Here’s How Signing Brandon Marshall was a Brilliant Move by the Giants
Here’s why the New York Giants Keeping Shane Vereen is a Wise Move
Giants must avoid drafting an offensive tackle in round one
Don’t give up on Ereck Flowers just yet
If anyone other than you had linked to this guy, I'd assume it was satire. But you really thought it was a good source. You shouldn't worry about me looking weak, and trust me - you are hardly a challenge. I meant what I said earlier, though: I genuinely do feel sorry for you.
Link - ( New Window )
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Stick to the relevant conversation.
Good summary to what happened to the Giants for you. In line with the thoughts of the majority of posters and Giants fans. Dig in if you must but best to find acceptance imv.
https://gothamsn.com/jerry-reese-giants-blame-211df934fb70
I know the irony will be completely lost on you -- but you linking to an amateur blog posting about Jerry Reese published nearly 3 years after Gilbride left -- and instructing anyone to stick to the relevant conversation is so ... you.
Never change you little darling.
Looks like you missed all the stuff on the 2010-14 drafts and how poor they were that impacted the O and Gilbride.
There were plenty of things in that tweet that covered most of the time period where ultimately almost everyone got fired.
Interesting note on JR and Flowers and some parts are after KG but it still shows the same consistent draft of how poor drafts impacted the team 2012-17. Gilbride was just the first casualty.
Now hey, if you want to align yourself with world class musings like:
You go for it. Reminds me of The Smiths song Cemetry Gates.
I'm glad you've got Ryan Disdier on your side.
I don't follow him on Twitter. He came up when I searched the Raanan article on KG talking about the OL prior the being fired which a couple posters denied. That tweet goes back to 2010 but sums up a lot of issues discussed here and elsewhere. This guy compared the Giants to what Dallas, WFT Philly did during that time. The amount of Pro Bowlers is startling and goes back to KG's time and continues through 2017. This was especially true on the OL which KG warned of.
Reality was with the drafts of 2008-2017 it was going to end for a lot of people. KG just happened to be the first to go after 2013. That tweet has a lot of information that that shows the early issues causing KG's ouster that extended into 2017. They are tied together. KG was working with players from those 2010-13 drafts and the tweet points how just about every was gone by the 2017 season.
Not surprising that you took a small BM blurb from all that was in it but you are who you are.
You're on that bottom rung.
I'm not surprised you're taking validation from a sloppy internet amateur whose long and winding drivel missed most of the nuance of a complex set of events -- and then came up with a bananas an embarrassing conclusion.
I'd almost suspect that guy is you, but he has a basic command of grammar, so probably not.
I'm not surprised you're taking validation from a sloppy internet amateur whose long and winding drivel missed most of the nuance of a complex set of events -- and then came up with a bananas an embarrassing conclusion.
I'd almost suspect that guy is you, but he has a basic command of grammar, so probably not.
"and then came up with a bananas an embarrassing conclusion"
What? Lol. Way to lead from the front.
Now to the content, if you see where KG was at fault and that the talent from the 2010-13 drafts (in tweet) or from the article above which highlights the 2007-12 I'll pay attention. I see a situation where it would be difficult for just about anyone to have significant success considering the amount of players who were out of the league shortly.
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Oh pumpkin, that's cute.
I'm not surprised you're taking validation from a sloppy internet amateur whose long and winding drivel missed most of the nuance of a complex set of events -- and then came up with a bananas an embarrassing conclusion.
I'd almost suspect that guy is you, but he has a basic command of grammar, so probably not.
"and then came up with a bananas an embarrassing conclusion"
What? Lol. Way to lead from the front.
I'm not surprised you lean on a guy whose thesis is:
With the benefit of hindsight, a sharper person probably reads that drivel and decides "this child does repeat some of my incessant ramblings, but his conclusion is bananas and embarrassing. Maybe I shouldn't offer that up as defense of my unsophisticated opinion."
But you keep consistent intellectual company. Congrats for your consistency.
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Not surprising that you took a small BM blurb from all that was in it but you are who you are.
You're on that bottom rung.
I am the “responding to tone” aka thin-skinned/sensitive.
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You don’t have anything to apologize for Christian, but thanks.
Back at you. You know what I think of you, your opinions, and football knowledge. Very good conversation and debate.
Thanks for the kind words, but I am a bit of a know-it-all ass too often.
Had a cool Hawaiian shirt on,
And he smoked a big cigar.