Random encounter unexpectedly at Starbucks. Spoke to him briefly, told him I was a third generation huge Giants fan and thanked him for his contributions to the Giants. He was appreciative of the kind words and thanked me. Air Gilbride!
There were both reports that Coughlin would not stand up for Gilbirde and at least this report that he would have.
But, they both have about the same amount of value as evidence for either side. Would Coughlin Defend Gilbride? - ( New Window )
See above quoted comment by Mara on WFAN. It’s really all anyone should need here.
No, that indicates that there were some in the organization that wanted Gilbride out. How does that prove that Coughlin did not or would not stand up for him?
Proof, much like grace and forgiveness, exists in your mind. Evidence exists outside of it.
And there is most certainly plenty of evidence that Gilbride was indeed forced out and that the retirement talk was just the cover story - it's the same one Hanlon used a few years later for Coughlin himself, and then again with Gettleman a year and a half ago.
We also have evidence of Coughlin sacrificing his coordinators to save himself: he did exactly that after the 2006 season when his seat was at its hottest, and did so again a year after Gilbride's "retirement" with the dismissal of Fewell, when he needed another shakeup to save himself (because replacing Gilbride hadn't been enough).
Anyone who hasn't learned to decode the beat reports that surround and subsequently follow an event like that involving the Giants, either isn't paying attention or willingly chooses to believe the version Pat Hanlon has curated for the fanbase.
Retirement is just the story that the Giants use to announce the firings of long-tenured coaches and executives - they've used the same page in the playbook often enough to make it obvious by now if you're paying any attention at all.
I find your evidence quite weak just like the evidence provided before. Just because a coach fires a coordinator does not mean they are throwing them under the bus or giving them a raw deal. Coaches fire coordinators all the time, it happens. Some in the Giants wanted Gilbride out and he was going to retire anyway, two things can be true at once.
I am strictly contending here that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride. I have not seen anything substantial to convince me otherwise.
I imagine if I told someone with an objective mind that a coach screwed over his friend and co-worker and I used a quote from an anonymous source as my evidence to help prove my thinking, I am guessing they would need to see more evidence to believe my claim. I can also produce an anonymous source that says Coughlin was ready to fight for Gilbride if he (Gilbride) wanted to remain with the Giants. I consider my evidence just as weak as the evidence shown to me.
I like how I am not paying attention because I don't see it the same way as you.
There were both reports that Coughlin would not stand up for Gilbirde and at least this report that he would have.
But, they both have about the same amount of value as evidence for either side. Would Coughlin Defend Gilbride? - ( New Window )
See above quoted comment by Mara on WFAN. It’s really all anyone should need here.
No, that indicates that there were some in the organization that wanted Gilbride out. How does that prove that Coughlin did not or would not stand up for him?
Proof, much like grace and forgiveness, exists in your mind. Evidence exists outside of it.
And there is most certainly plenty of evidence that Gilbride was indeed forced out and that the retirement talk was just the cover story - it's the same one Hanlon used a few years later for Coughlin himself, and then again with Gettleman a year and a half ago.
We also have evidence of Coughlin sacrificing his coordinators to save himself: he did exactly that after the 2006 season when his seat was at its hottest, and did so again a year after Gilbride's "retirement" with the dismissal of Fewell, when he needed another shakeup to save himself (because replacing Gilbride hadn't been enough).
Anyone who hasn't learned to decode the beat reports that surround and subsequently follow an event like that involving the Giants, either isn't paying attention or willingly chooses to believe the version Pat Hanlon has curated for the fanbase.
Retirement is just the story that the Giants use to announce the firings of long-tenured coaches and executives - they've used the same page in the playbook often enough to make it obvious by now if you're paying any attention at all.
I find your evidence quite weak just like the evidence provided before. Just because a coach fires a coordinator does not mean they are throwing them under the bus or giving them a raw deal. Coaches fire coordinators all the time, it happens. Some in the Giants wanted Gilbride out and he was going to retire anyway, two things can be true at once.
I am strictly contending here that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride. I have not seen anything substantial to convince me otherwise.
I imagine if I told someone with an objective mind that a coach screwed over his friend and co-worker and I used a quote from an anonymous source as my evidence to help prove my thinking, I am guessing they would need to see more evidence to believe my claim. I can also produce an anonymous source that says Coughlin was ready to fight for Gilbride if he (Gilbride) wanted to remain with the Giants. I consider my evidence just as weak as the evidence shown to me.
I like how I am not paying attention because I don't see it the same way as you.
Quote:
I am strictly contending here that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride. I have not seen anything substantial to convince me otherwise.
Not going to go through the thread as you might have addressed this opinion here, so can you be a nice friend and sum up your feelings as to why you believe that to be true?
Retirement is just the story that the Giants use to announce the firings of long-tenured coaches and executives - they've used the same page in the playbook often enough to make it obvious by now if you're paying any attention at all.
The only character in the play who didn't get that courtesy was Reese, and even so he never embarrassed himself in the fashion Gilbride did, shitting on his former co-workers and claiming he coached and unsolvable offense.
Gilbride is about the whiniest butthole this team ever employed.
ChrisRick, can you describe the type of evidence you'd be looking for that would open your mind to the possibility your stance isn't unequivocally correct?
ChrisRick, can you describe the type of evidence you'd be looking for that would open your mind to the possibility your stance isn't unequivocally correct?
Multiple sources would help. A pattern from Coughlin in the past of giving his coordinators a raw deal. It is not as if I don't think Coughlin is not capable of screwing over a friend and co-worker, I just think it is reasonable to ask for more evidence than what I was given to believe otherwise.
I appreciate your response, and your point of view on this, however I'll just say that the reason why I'm suggesting that you aren't paying attention isn't that we happen to disagree; rather, it's the frequency with which the Giants use "retirement" as a way to announce firings when they are trying to provide a more dignified narrative for that individual. That particular trend seems rather obvious to me, and I'm saying that I think it should be equally obvious to anyone who is paying attention.
ChrisRick, can you describe the type of evidence you'd be looking for that would open your mind to the possibility your stance isn't unequivocally correct?
Multiple sources would help. A pattern from Coughlin in the past of giving his coordinators a raw deal. It is not as if I don't think Coughlin is not capable of screwing over a friend and co-worker, I just think it is reasonable to ask for more evidence than what I was given to believe otherwise.
I'm pretty sure John Hufnagel, Tim Lewis, and Perry Fewell could help piece together a pattern. Either Coughlin was really bad at choosing coordinators, or really good at steering the bus over their carcasses.
I appreciate your response, and your point of view on this, however I'll just say that the reason why I'm suggesting that you aren't paying attention isn't that we happen to disagree; rather, it's the frequency with which the Giants use "retirement" as a way to announce firings when they are trying to provide a more dignified narrative for that individual. That particular trend seems rather obvious to me, and I'm saying that I think it should be equally obvious to anyone who is paying attention.
That is fine. I apologize for getting snippy. I don't really have a problem with anyone saying the Giants using 'retirement' to save face for firings. If Gilbride did not intend on retiring, it sounds like the Giants were going to fire him. The issue is accusing Coughlin of screwing over Gilbride.
I simply have not been given what I consider adequate evidence that Coughlin is guilty as accused. I don't think I am choosing to be blind to obvious evidence showing Coughlin made Gilbride his fall guy.
ChrisRick, can you describe the type of evidence you'd be looking for that would open your mind to the possibility your stance isn't unequivocally correct?
Multiple sources would help. A pattern from Coughlin in the past of giving his coordinators a raw deal. It is not as if I don't think Coughlin is not capable of screwing over a friend and co-worker, I just think it is reasonable to ask for more evidence than what I was given to believe otherwise.
I'm pretty sure John Hufnagel, Tim Lewis, and Perry Fewell could help piece together a pattern. Either Coughlin was really bad at choosing coordinators, or really good at steering the bus over their carcasses.
So just because a coach fires coordinators, he is throwing them under the bus? Sometimes, probably most of the time, coordinators deserve to be fired. They are not the same.
Retirement is just the story that the Giants use to announce the firings of long-tenured coaches and executives - they've used the same page in the playbook often enough to make it obvious by now if you're paying any attention at all.
The only character in the play who didn't get that courtesy was Reese, and even so he never embarrassed himself in the fashion Gilbride did, shitting on his former co-workers and claiming he coached and unsolvable offense.
Gilbride is about the whiniest butthole this team ever employed.
The fact that Reese did not get that courtesy is, most likely, due to having any fingerprints at all found at the Eli benching crime scene. But it might also indicate (to me, anyway) that Reese was never held in the same esteem internally as Coughlin at around the same time.
ChrisRick, can you describe the type of evidence you'd be looking for that would open your mind to the possibility your stance isn't unequivocally correct?
Multiple sources would help. A pattern from Coughlin in the past of giving his coordinators a raw deal. It is not as if I don't think Coughlin is not capable of screwing over a friend and co-worker, I just think it is reasonable to ask for more evidence than what I was given to believe otherwise.
I'm pretty sure John Hufnagel, Tim Lewis, and Perry Fewell could help piece together a pattern. Either Coughlin was really bad at choosing coordinators, or really good at steering the bus over their carcasses.
So just because a coach fires coordinators, he is throwing them under the bus? Sometimes, probably most of the time, coordinators deserve to be fired. They are not the same.
Fair. Good thing I offered two possibilities for why Coughlin fired his coordinators so often.
Yes you did give two possible reasons. But I don't think you believe at all that it is simply that Coughlin is just bad at picking coordinators.
Well, I do think it's worth examining - some of his failed coordinators never got another sniff at another coordinator gig anywhere else in the league. So I do think it's at least a valid possibility that Coughlin's ability to identify strong coordinators was sometimes lacking.
But generally speaking, you're right - I do not believe that Coughlin's coordinator selections themselves were necessarily doomed from the start, at least not to the same extent that I believe that Coughlin understood that there are times when a pound of flesh would be demanded, and that the flesh he offered didn't have to be his own.
“Let me say this: You always miss on some draft picks,” Reese said. “I take full responsibility for every player that’s been on this roster from the time I’ve been director of player personnel until right now, so I’ll take full responsibility — even though everybody’s involved with the grading players, and the players we take. I don’t try to have full control of everything. Our coaching staff is involved, our personnel staff is involved, everybody’s involved.”
Would have been great if he stopped at "I'll take full responsibility" before the bus got going. The beats certainly had fun after that press conference.
Interesting and revealing that is was just the coaches getting fired.
Yes you did give two possible reasons. But I don't think you believe at all that it is simply that Coughlin is just bad at picking coordinators.
I'll add this - having done no research on this, so it's purely anecdotal and coming from my own limited lens: I cannot think of any other head coach who had a protracted (and largely successful) tenure with a team but had to replace fired coordinators as frequently as Coughlin did.
Many successful head coaches find themselves needing to replace coordinators and assistants with some regularity because those coaches get poached from their staff - that's a hallmark of a successful program, wouldn't you agree? But I cannot think of too many NFL head coaches who lasted a decade or more with their team but had to replace both coordinators TWICE due to performance-related terminations.
Belichick replaces his coordinators all the time - how many has he fired? Same for Carroll, Tomlin, and Reid. How often have those long-tenured head coaches fired their coordinators? I'm asking because I genuinely don't know the answer, but my sense is that it hasn't been as frequent as it was for the Giants under Coughlin.
I think it's pretty obvious Gilbride had an involuntary retirement.
If his life's dream was another crack at a HC gig, why did he up and retire on January 2nd, before the coaching interview process even began? If his job and reputation were safe, wouldn't he at least wait to see if he got a call for an interview before abruptly quitting?
If his job was safe, why did the owner effectively say good thing he quit, because he was getting fired.
So with a pretty good sense it was quit or be fired, where would that come from?
This where I think the fan fiction comes into play. We're to believe the mighty Tom Coughlin, whose wife had to tell him to chill, who set the clocks back and the socks up, was getting dragged around like a bitch by Jerry Reese and John Mara?
I think Gilbride took one for Coughlin, and saved them both the indignity of what was about to happen.
Because I don't think Tom Coughlin was anyone's bitch. I think he was firmly in control of his operation and staff.
Yes you did give two possible reasons. But I don't think you believe at all that it is simply that Coughlin is just bad at picking coordinators.
Well, I do think it's worth examining - some of his failed coordinators never got another sniff at another coordinator gig anywhere else in the league. So I do think it's at least a valid possibility that Coughlin's ability to identify strong coordinators was sometimes lacking.
But generally speaking, you're right - I do not believe that Coughlin's coordinator selections themselves were necessarily doomed from the start, at least not to the same extent that I believe that Coughlin understood that there are times when a pound of flesh would be demanded, and that the flesh he offered didn't have to be his own.
Thanks for being candid. I don’t see Coughlin as some angel incapable of screwing over others, I did not like the strong accusation. I feel like a strong accusations should have solid evidence to back it up. After saying that, I expect to be held to the same standard or I should be called out for it.
I think it's pretty obvious Gilbride had an involuntary retirement.
If his life's dream was another crack at a HC gig, why did he up and retire on January 2nd, before the coaching interview process even began? If his job and reputation were safe, wouldn't he at least wait to see if he got a call for an interview before abruptly quitting?
If his job was safe, why did the owner effectively say good thing he quit, because he was getting fired.
So with a pretty good sense it was quit or be fired, where would that come from?
This where I think the fan fiction comes into play. We're to believe the mighty Tom Coughlin, whose wife had to tell him to chill, who set the clocks back and the socks up, was getting dragged around like a bitch by Jerry Reese and John Mara?
I think Gilbride took one for Coughlin, and saved them both the indignity of what was about to happen.
Because I don't think Tom Coughlin was anyone's bitch. I think he was firmly in control of his operation and staff.
Gilbride explained that the offense playing so poorly in 2013 probably cost him any chance at a HC gig. If Gilbride took one for Coughlin go voluntarily then I don’t see how he was screwed over. If that were true, Coughlin probably should have demanded Gilbride not do that, but each makes their own decisions
The Giants have maintained that their decisions are collaborative. If enough votes were to have Gilbride fired, then Coughlin certainly could make some sort of stand, but it seems unlikely he would get his minority way.
I think it's pretty obvious Gilbride had an involuntary retirement.
If his life's dream was another crack at a HC gig, why did he up and retire on January 2nd, before the coaching interview process even began? If his job and reputation were safe, wouldn't he at least wait to see if he got a call for an interview before abruptly quitting?
If his job was safe, why did the owner effectively say good thing he quit, because he was getting fired.
So with a pretty good sense it was quit or be fired, where would that come from?
This where I think the fan fiction comes into play. We're to believe the mighty Tom Coughlin, whose wife had to tell him to chill, who set the clocks back and the socks up, was getting dragged around like a bitch by Jerry Reese and John Mara?
I think Gilbride took one for Coughlin, and saved them both the indignity of what was about to happen.
Because I don't think Tom Coughlin was anyone's bitch. I think he was firmly in control of his operation and staff.
Gilbride explained that the offense playing so poorly in 2013 probably cost him any chance at a HC gig. If Gilbride took one for Coughlin go voluntarily then I don’t see how he was screwed over. If that were true, Coughlin probably should have demanded Gilbride not do that, but each makes their own decisions
The Giants have maintained that their decisions are collaborative. If enough votes were to have Gilbride fired, then Coughlin certainly could make some sort of stand, but it seems unlikely he would get his minority way.
I was able to find a previously unreleased photo from a staffing meeting in the Giants' front office:
talked about the OL problems in the summer of 2013. From a Raanan article in ESPN.
"Youth wanted: Gilbride has expressed his concern about the offensive line in the past. But for this season, Gilbride is optimistic that his veteran linemen will be healthy."
"We added some young blood that can come in and look like they have the skill set to be able to play and contribute down the road," Gilbride said. "There is no question, we needed an infusion of talent at that spot -– young talent that would be able to come in and eventually assume starting roles. How soon that will be remains to be seen."
Some are just confused and think he said comments after his firing which he did but he also did while still employed.
He was well aware of the OL issues as most fans were.
I gather the front office did not like his honesty and there is another article where he specifically said the coaching staff had been telling the front office we need to get some OL in here.
The 20011/12 drafts show a disconnect. 2013-15 was when they tried to play catch up.
I think it's pretty obvious Gilbride had an involuntary retirement.
If his life's dream was another crack at a HC gig, why did he up and retire on January 2nd, before the coaching interview process even began? If his job and reputation were safe, wouldn't he at least wait to see if he got a call for an interview before abruptly quitting?
If his job was safe, why did the owner effectively say good thing he quit, because he was getting fired.
So with a pretty good sense it was quit or be fired, where would that come from?
This where I think the fan fiction comes into play. We're to believe the mighty Tom Coughlin, whose wife had to tell him to chill, who set the clocks back and the socks up, was getting dragged around like a bitch by Jerry Reese and John Mara?
I think Gilbride took one for Coughlin, and saved them both the indignity of what was about to happen.
Because I don't think Tom Coughlin was anyone's bitch. I think he was firmly in control of his operation and staff.
Gilbride explained that the offense playing so poorly in 2013 probably cost him any chance at a HC gig. If Gilbride took one for Coughlin go voluntarily then I don’t see how he was screwed over. If that were true, Coughlin probably should have demanded Gilbride not do that, but each makes their own decisions
The Giants have maintained that their decisions are collaborative. If enough votes were to have Gilbride fired, then Coughlin certainly could make some sort of stand, but it seems unlikely he would get his minority way.
I was able to find a previously unreleased photo from a staffing meeting in the Giants' front office:
.
Reese
Lines of Scrimmage : 9:22 am : link : reply
“Let me say this: You always miss on some draft picks,” Reese said. “I take full responsibility for every player that’s been on this roster from the time I’ve been director of player personnel until right now, so I’ll take full responsibility — even though everybody’s involved with the grading players, and the players we take. I don’t try to have full control of everything. Our coaching staff is involved, our personnel staff is involved, everybody’s involved.”
Would have been great if he stopped at "I'll take full responsibility" before the bus got going. The beats certainly had fun after that press conference.
I've bolded where Reese said "full responsibility" for you reference.
You said it would have been great if he stopped there.
So what is it Lucille, was Reese fully responsible for all the personnel moves or was Coughlin in on the action?
Got it. So you agree Reese was responding for all the personnel moves from the time he was director forward. Thanks for being clear and straightforward.
that everybody but Gilbride all received some nice leeway that offseason. If he didn't specifically get the screws put to him then I guess everybody else had a nice stash of "Get Out Of Jail Free" cards in their office drawers.
Quote:
“He (Gilbride) retired and fortunately it didn’t come to any type of situation where he had to be forced out,’’ Mara said Thursday in an interview on WFAN.
And then later in the same article
Quote:
There will not be another major shakeup to Coughlin’s staff despite the 7-9 finish.
“I just don’t think that merits cleaning house and blowing the whole thing up and bringing in a whole new staff in there,’’ Mara said. “There comes a time when you have to do that, I don’t think this is the time and I think people just have to be patient and accept the fact we had a lot of injuries this year.
“Yes, we have missed on some draft picks and some of our free-agent acquisitions haven’t worked out in the past year or two but I still have a lot of confidence in our staff here and our coaches and I think we will get it turned around.’’
RE: Interesting context from the NY Post article I posted above yesterday
that everybody but Gilbride all received some nice leeway that offseason. If he didn't specifically get the screws put to him then I guess everybody else had a nice stash of "Get Out Of Jail Free" cards in their office drawers.
Quote:
“He (Gilbride) retired and fortunately it didn’t come to any type of situation where he had to be forced out,’’ Mara said Thursday in an interview on WFAN.
And then later in the same article
Quote:
There will not be another major shakeup to Coughlin’s staff despite the 7-9 finish.
“I just don’t think that merits cleaning house and blowing the whole thing up and bringing in a whole new staff in there,’’ Mara said. “There comes a time when you have to do that, I don’t think this is the time and I think people just have to be patient and accept the fact we had a lot of injuries this year.
“Yes, we have missed on some draft picks and some of our free-agent acquisitions haven’t worked out in the past year or two but I still have a lot of confidence in our staff here and our coaches and I think we will get it turned around.’’
If you are attempting to prove that some in the Giants wanted Gilbride out, yep, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. If you think this proves that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride then you might want to read it again.
Got it. So you agree Reese was responding for all the personnel moves from the time he was director forward. Thanks for being clear and straightforward.
No. I just posted Reese's words which were in defense of all the poor drafts.
To me it was someone who took responsibility and in the next sentence quickly throws everyone under the bus.
What I expect from leader is to take the bullets and then make moves with actions.
I didn't see anyone from the front office go. Just the coaches.
Got it. So you agree Reese was responding for all the personnel moves from the time he was director forward. Thanks for being clear and straightforward.
No. I just posted Reese's words which were in defense of all the poor drafts.
You're wobbling again Lucille, was Reese responsible or not responsible for the players in the time period he described?
Got it. So you agree Reese was responding for all the personnel moves from the time he was director forward. Thanks for being clear and straightforward.
No. I just posted Reese's words which were in defense of all the poor drafts.
You're wobbling again Lucille, was Reese responsible or not responsible for the players in the time period he described?
This is a yes or no one, you can do this.
It's not. It was just Reese's words and my comment about a poor statement after taking responsibility from a key leader in your organization.
Now if you are asking me what I think of Reese's performance overall there are plenty of threads where I have stated that. Just go back to all those threads where you posted the picture as a start when I or others questioned his work.
that everybody but Gilbride all received some nice leeway that offseason. If he didn't specifically get the screws put to him then I guess everybody else had a nice stash of "Get Out Of Jail Free" cards in their office drawers.
Quote:
“He (Gilbride) retired and fortunately it didn’t come to any type of situation where he had to be forced out,’’ Mara said Thursday in an interview on WFAN.
And then later in the same article
Quote:
There will not be another major shakeup to Coughlin’s staff despite the 7-9 finish.
“I just don’t think that merits cleaning house and blowing the whole thing up and bringing in a whole new staff in there,’’ Mara said. “There comes a time when you have to do that, I don’t think this is the time and I think people just have to be patient and accept the fact we had a lot of injuries this year.
“Yes, we have missed on some draft picks and some of our free-agent acquisitions haven’t worked out in the past year or two but I still have a lot of confidence in our staff here and our coaches and I think we will get it turned around.’’
If you are attempting to prove that some in the Giants wanted Gilbride out, yep, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. If you think this proves that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride then you might want to read it again.
Btw. How are those Bulldogs looking this year?
You keep saying "some in the Giants wanted Gilbride out" but that quote is attributed to Mara. He's not making that quote unless he was aligned with it, IMO. So it wasn't just a nebulous "some in the Giants" - it was some combination of Mara and/or Coughlin. No one else would have had a vote.
Would it be fair to ask if you think Coughlin would have possessed enough weight at that time to have told Mara no? IMO, Coughlin did have enough power to do so, but for whatever reason, he did not use it. That could be because Coughlin himself recognized that KG should go, or it could be because KG didn't want his job to be saved with a team that no longer wanted him.
But my personal belief is that Coughlin had enough autonomy over his staff that he could have saved KG if he wanted to. And when I combine that with the number of coordinators that TC fired during his time as NYG head coach and the regularity with which the Giants use "retirement" as their preferred method of terminating a staffer with dignity, I have a hard time bucketing KG into a different category.
The only difference was the narrative surrounding the send-off, IMO.
RE: RE: RE: Interesting context from the NY Post article I posted above yesterday
that everybody but Gilbride all received some nice leeway that offseason. If he didn't specifically get the screws put to him then I guess everybody else had a nice stash of "Get Out Of Jail Free" cards in their office drawers.
Quote:
“He (Gilbride) retired and fortunately it didn’t come to any type of situation where he had to be forced out,’’ Mara said Thursday in an interview on WFAN.
And then later in the same article
Quote:
There will not be another major shakeup to Coughlin’s staff despite the 7-9 finish.
“I just don’t think that merits cleaning house and blowing the whole thing up and bringing in a whole new staff in there,’’ Mara said. “There comes a time when you have to do that, I don’t think this is the time and I think people just have to be patient and accept the fact we had a lot of injuries this year.
“Yes, we have missed on some draft picks and some of our free-agent acquisitions haven’t worked out in the past year or two but I still have a lot of confidence in our staff here and our coaches and I think we will get it turned around.’’
If you are attempting to prove that some in the Giants wanted Gilbride out, yep, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. If you think this proves that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride then you might want to read it again.
Btw. How are those Bulldogs looking this year?
You keep saying "some in the Giants wanted Gilbride out" but that quote is attributed to Mara. He's not making that quote unless he was aligned with it, IMO. So it wasn't just a nebulous "some in the Giants" - it was some combination of Mara and/or Coughlin. No one else would have had a vote.
Would it be fair to ask if you think Coughlin would have possessed enough weight at that time to have told Mara no? IMO, Coughlin did have enough power to do so, but for whatever reason, he did not use it. That could be because Coughlin himself recognized that KG should go, or it could be because KG didn't want his job to be saved with a team that no longer wanted him.
But my personal belief is that Coughlin had enough autonomy over his staff that he could have saved KG if he wanted to. And when I combine that with the number of coordinators that TC fired during his time as NYG head coach and the regularity with which the Giants use "retirement" as their preferred method of terminating a staffer with dignity, I have a hard time bucketing KG into a different category.
The only difference was the narrative surrounding the send-off, IMO.
Coughlin would have had enough clout to say no to Mara. But, why would he have to if Gilbride was going to retire anyway? You don't believe Gilbride is telling the truth about wanting to retire if he could not get a HC position. I don't have any reason to doubt that he is telling the truth.
Again, there is not close to enough evidence for me that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride, certainly not any 'obvious evidence'.
Anyone that believes Coughlin screwed over Gilbride thinks that both Gilbride and Coughlin are lying.
Coughlin after Gilbride retired:
Quote:
Tom Coughlin Was Prepared to Fight for Kevin Gilbride: According to The Daily News, had Offensive Coordinator Kevin Gilbride not retired on Thursday, Head Coach Tom Coughlin was prepared to fight to keep Gilbride in his discussions with team President/CEO John Mara and General Manager Jerry Reese. Those organizational discussions reportedly began on Thursday and will continue into next week. The Daily News says, “Knowing Mara’s intention to replace Gilbride, Coughlin told at least one person ‘I’m not going to let that happen.'” The Daily News adds that it is unknown how far Coughlin was willing to go if Mara insisted on firing Gilbride. A source informed The Daily News that Coughlin told Gilbride he was going to fight for him, but Gilbride said there was no need since he had decided to retire.
“The first thing that I said to our owners is that I’m responsible for the coaches,” Coughlin said said on WFAN on Friday. “To think that there’s any one individual who is responsible for the circumstances that we found ourselves in, that’s crazy. Kevin Gilbride is an excellent football coach, he’s an excellent teacher and communicator. His players do respond to him. He works very, very hard at his trade. He has made his mark on this organization.”
Again, maybe Gilbride and Coughlin are both lying, but there still is not any solid evidence that they are lying or that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride. TC - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 16117948 nygiantfan said:
Quote:
In comment 16117940 ChrisRick said:
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There were both reports that Coughlin would not stand up for Gilbirde and at least this report that he would have.
But, they both have about the same amount of value as evidence for either side. Would Coughlin Defend Gilbride? - ( New Window )
See above quoted comment by Mara on WFAN. It’s really all anyone should need here.
No, that indicates that there were some in the organization that wanted Gilbride out. How does that prove that Coughlin did not or would not stand up for him?
Proof, much like grace and forgiveness, exists in your mind. Evidence exists outside of it.
And there is most certainly plenty of evidence that Gilbride was indeed forced out and that the retirement talk was just the cover story - it's the same one Hanlon used a few years later for Coughlin himself, and then again with Gettleman a year and a half ago.
We also have evidence of Coughlin sacrificing his coordinators to save himself: he did exactly that after the 2006 season when his seat was at its hottest, and did so again a year after Gilbride's "retirement" with the dismissal of Fewell, when he needed another shakeup to save himself (because replacing Gilbride hadn't been enough).
Anyone who hasn't learned to decode the beat reports that surround and subsequently follow an event like that involving the Giants, either isn't paying attention or willingly chooses to believe the version Pat Hanlon has curated for the fanbase.
Retirement is just the story that the Giants use to announce the firings of long-tenured coaches and executives - they've used the same page in the playbook often enough to make it obvious by now if you're paying any attention at all.
I find your evidence quite weak just like the evidence provided before. Just because a coach fires a coordinator does not mean they are throwing them under the bus or giving them a raw deal. Coaches fire coordinators all the time, it happens. Some in the Giants wanted Gilbride out and he was going to retire anyway, two things can be true at once.
I am strictly contending here that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride. I have not seen anything substantial to convince me otherwise.
I imagine if I told someone with an objective mind that a coach screwed over his friend and co-worker and I used a quote from an anonymous source as my evidence to help prove my thinking, I am guessing they would need to see more evidence to believe my claim. I can also produce an anonymous source that says Coughlin was ready to fight for Gilbride if he (Gilbride) wanted to remain with the Giants. I consider my evidence just as weak as the evidence shown to me.
I like how I am not paying attention because I don't see it the same way as you.
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In comment 16117950 ChrisRick said:
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In comment 16117948 nygiantfan said:
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In comment 16117940 ChrisRick said:
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There were both reports that Coughlin would not stand up for Gilbirde and at least this report that he would have.
But, they both have about the same amount of value as evidence for either side. Would Coughlin Defend Gilbride? - ( New Window )
See above quoted comment by Mara on WFAN. It’s really all anyone should need here.
No, that indicates that there were some in the organization that wanted Gilbride out. How does that prove that Coughlin did not or would not stand up for him?
Proof, much like grace and forgiveness, exists in your mind. Evidence exists outside of it.
And there is most certainly plenty of evidence that Gilbride was indeed forced out and that the retirement talk was just the cover story - it's the same one Hanlon used a few years later for Coughlin himself, and then again with Gettleman a year and a half ago.
We also have evidence of Coughlin sacrificing his coordinators to save himself: he did exactly that after the 2006 season when his seat was at its hottest, and did so again a year after Gilbride's "retirement" with the dismissal of Fewell, when he needed another shakeup to save himself (because replacing Gilbride hadn't been enough).
Anyone who hasn't learned to decode the beat reports that surround and subsequently follow an event like that involving the Giants, either isn't paying attention or willingly chooses to believe the version Pat Hanlon has curated for the fanbase.
Retirement is just the story that the Giants use to announce the firings of long-tenured coaches and executives - they've used the same page in the playbook often enough to make it obvious by now if you're paying any attention at all.
I find your evidence quite weak just like the evidence provided before. Just because a coach fires a coordinator does not mean they are throwing them under the bus or giving them a raw deal. Coaches fire coordinators all the time, it happens. Some in the Giants wanted Gilbride out and he was going to retire anyway, two things can be true at once.
I am strictly contending here that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride. I have not seen anything substantial to convince me otherwise.
I imagine if I told someone with an objective mind that a coach screwed over his friend and co-worker and I used a quote from an anonymous source as my evidence to help prove my thinking, I am guessing they would need to see more evidence to believe my claim. I can also produce an anonymous source that says Coughlin was ready to fight for Gilbride if he (Gilbride) wanted to remain with the Giants. I consider my evidence just as weak as the evidence shown to me.
I like how I am not paying attention because I don't see it the same way as you.
I am strictly contending here that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride. I have not seen anything substantial to convince me otherwise.
Not going to go through the thread as you might have addressed this opinion here, so can you be a nice friend and sum up your feelings as to why you believe that to be true?
The only character in the play who didn't get that courtesy was Reese, and even so he never embarrassed himself in the fashion Gilbride did, shitting on his former co-workers and claiming he coached and unsolvable offense.
Gilbride is about the whiniest butthole this team ever employed.
Multiple sources would help. A pattern from Coughlin in the past of giving his coordinators a raw deal. It is not as if I don't think Coughlin is not capable of screwing over a friend and co-worker, I just think it is reasonable to ask for more evidence than what I was given to believe otherwise.
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ChrisRick, can you describe the type of evidence you'd be looking for that would open your mind to the possibility your stance isn't unequivocally correct?
Multiple sources would help. A pattern from Coughlin in the past of giving his coordinators a raw deal. It is not as if I don't think Coughlin is not capable of screwing over a friend and co-worker, I just think it is reasonable to ask for more evidence than what I was given to believe otherwise.
I'm pretty sure John Hufnagel, Tim Lewis, and Perry Fewell could help piece together a pattern. Either Coughlin was really bad at choosing coordinators, or really good at steering the bus over their carcasses.
That is fine. I apologize for getting snippy. I don't really have a problem with anyone saying the Giants using 'retirement' to save face for firings. If Gilbride did not intend on retiring, it sounds like the Giants were going to fire him. The issue is accusing Coughlin of screwing over Gilbride.
I simply have not been given what I consider adequate evidence that Coughlin is guilty as accused. I don't think I am choosing to be blind to obvious evidence showing Coughlin made Gilbride his fall guy.
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In comment 16118195 christian said:
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ChrisRick, can you describe the type of evidence you'd be looking for that would open your mind to the possibility your stance isn't unequivocally correct?
Multiple sources would help. A pattern from Coughlin in the past of giving his coordinators a raw deal. It is not as if I don't think Coughlin is not capable of screwing over a friend and co-worker, I just think it is reasonable to ask for more evidence than what I was given to believe otherwise.
I'm pretty sure John Hufnagel, Tim Lewis, and Perry Fewell could help piece together a pattern. Either Coughlin was really bad at choosing coordinators, or really good at steering the bus over their carcasses.
So just because a coach fires coordinators, he is throwing them under the bus? Sometimes, probably most of the time, coordinators deserve to be fired. They are not the same.
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Retirement is just the story that the Giants use to announce the firings of long-tenured coaches and executives - they've used the same page in the playbook often enough to make it obvious by now if you're paying any attention at all.
The only character in the play who didn't get that courtesy was Reese, and even so he never embarrassed himself in the fashion Gilbride did, shitting on his former co-workers and claiming he coached and unsolvable offense.
Gilbride is about the whiniest butthole this team ever employed.
The fact that Reese did not get that courtesy is, most likely, due to having any fingerprints at all found at the Eli benching crime scene. But it might also indicate (to me, anyway) that Reese was never held in the same esteem internally as Coughlin at around the same time.
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In comment 16118197 ChrisRick said:
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In comment 16118195 christian said:
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ChrisRick, can you describe the type of evidence you'd be looking for that would open your mind to the possibility your stance isn't unequivocally correct?
Multiple sources would help. A pattern from Coughlin in the past of giving his coordinators a raw deal. It is not as if I don't think Coughlin is not capable of screwing over a friend and co-worker, I just think it is reasonable to ask for more evidence than what I was given to believe otherwise.
I'm pretty sure John Hufnagel, Tim Lewis, and Perry Fewell could help piece together a pattern. Either Coughlin was really bad at choosing coordinators, or really good at steering the bus over their carcasses.
So just because a coach fires coordinators, he is throwing them under the bus? Sometimes, probably most of the time, coordinators deserve to be fired. They are not the same.
Fair. Good thing I offered two possibilities for why Coughlin fired his coordinators so often.
Well, I do think it's worth examining - some of his failed coordinators never got another sniff at another coordinator gig anywhere else in the league. So I do think it's at least a valid possibility that Coughlin's ability to identify strong coordinators was sometimes lacking.
But generally speaking, you're right - I do not believe that Coughlin's coordinator selections themselves were necessarily doomed from the start, at least not to the same extent that I believe that Coughlin understood that there are times when a pound of flesh would be demanded, and that the flesh he offered didn't have to be his own.
Would have been great if he stopped at "I'll take full responsibility" before the bus got going. The beats certainly had fun after that press conference.
Interesting and revealing that is was just the coaches getting fired.
I'll add this - having done no research on this, so it's purely anecdotal and coming from my own limited lens: I cannot think of any other head coach who had a protracted (and largely successful) tenure with a team but had to replace fired coordinators as frequently as Coughlin did.
Many successful head coaches find themselves needing to replace coordinators and assistants with some regularity because those coaches get poached from their staff - that's a hallmark of a successful program, wouldn't you agree? But I cannot think of too many NFL head coaches who lasted a decade or more with their team but had to replace both coordinators TWICE due to performance-related terminations.
Belichick replaces his coordinators all the time - how many has he fired? Same for Carroll, Tomlin, and Reid. How often have those long-tenured head coaches fired their coordinators? I'm asking because I genuinely don't know the answer, but my sense is that it hasn't been as frequent as it was for the Giants under Coughlin.
If his life's dream was another crack at a HC gig, why did he up and retire on January 2nd, before the coaching interview process even began? If his job and reputation were safe, wouldn't he at least wait to see if he got a call for an interview before abruptly quitting?
If his job was safe, why did the owner effectively say good thing he quit, because he was getting fired.
So with a pretty good sense it was quit or be fired, where would that come from?
This where I think the fan fiction comes into play. We're to believe the mighty Tom Coughlin, whose wife had to tell him to chill, who set the clocks back and the socks up, was getting dragged around like a bitch by Jerry Reese and John Mara?
I think Gilbride took one for Coughlin, and saved them both the indignity of what was about to happen.
Because I don't think Tom Coughlin was anyone's bitch. I think he was firmly in control of his operation and staff.
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Yes you did give two possible reasons. But I don't think you believe at all that it is simply that Coughlin is just bad at picking coordinators.
Well, I do think it's worth examining - some of his failed coordinators never got another sniff at another coordinator gig anywhere else in the league. So I do think it's at least a valid possibility that Coughlin's ability to identify strong coordinators was sometimes lacking.
But generally speaking, you're right - I do not believe that Coughlin's coordinator selections themselves were necessarily doomed from the start, at least not to the same extent that I believe that Coughlin understood that there are times when a pound of flesh would be demanded, and that the flesh he offered didn't have to be his own.
Thanks for being candid. I don’t see Coughlin as some angel incapable of screwing over others, I did not like the strong accusation. I feel like a strong accusations should have solid evidence to back it up. After saying that, I expect to be held to the same standard or I should be called out for it.
If his life's dream was another crack at a HC gig, why did he up and retire on January 2nd, before the coaching interview process even began? If his job and reputation were safe, wouldn't he at least wait to see if he got a call for an interview before abruptly quitting?
If his job was safe, why did the owner effectively say good thing he quit, because he was getting fired.
So with a pretty good sense it was quit or be fired, where would that come from?
This where I think the fan fiction comes into play. We're to believe the mighty Tom Coughlin, whose wife had to tell him to chill, who set the clocks back and the socks up, was getting dragged around like a bitch by Jerry Reese and John Mara?
I think Gilbride took one for Coughlin, and saved them both the indignity of what was about to happen.
Because I don't think Tom Coughlin was anyone's bitch. I think he was firmly in control of his operation and staff.
Gilbride explained that the offense playing so poorly in 2013 probably cost him any chance at a HC gig. If Gilbride took one for Coughlin go voluntarily then I don’t see how he was screwed over. If that were true, Coughlin probably should have demanded Gilbride not do that, but each makes their own decisions
The Giants have maintained that their decisions are collaborative. If enough votes were to have Gilbride fired, then Coughlin certainly could make some sort of stand, but it seems unlikely he would get his minority way.
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Oh sweetie, first off it's "I invited the mf'n clock."
Second, don't you think it's about time for an old fashion game of put up or shut up?
Here's the wager: you provide an example of me saying Coughlin or Manning should have gone after 2012 or 2013.
If you can I'll stop rubbing your face in those sweet, sweet pics of Reese and all that Super Bowl bling.
But if you can't, you promise to keep the nauseating rehashing of the made up past to two sentences or less per thread.
What do you say?
It's in a thread from years ago. Wouldn't know which one as there are so many that you go into that full defense mode.
I don't mind the pics. A bit childish though entertaining and funny. Have at it if it makes you feel better.
Being the Mensan that you claim to be, I would think you should have no trouble using a search engine.
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I think it's pretty obvious Gilbride had an involuntary retirement.
If his life's dream was another crack at a HC gig, why did he up and retire on January 2nd, before the coaching interview process even began? If his job and reputation were safe, wouldn't he at least wait to see if he got a call for an interview before abruptly quitting?
If his job was safe, why did the owner effectively say good thing he quit, because he was getting fired.
So with a pretty good sense it was quit or be fired, where would that come from?
This where I think the fan fiction comes into play. We're to believe the mighty Tom Coughlin, whose wife had to tell him to chill, who set the clocks back and the socks up, was getting dragged around like a bitch by Jerry Reese and John Mara?
I think Gilbride took one for Coughlin, and saved them both the indignity of what was about to happen.
Because I don't think Tom Coughlin was anyone's bitch. I think he was firmly in control of his operation and staff.
Gilbride explained that the offense playing so poorly in 2013 probably cost him any chance at a HC gig. If Gilbride took one for Coughlin go voluntarily then I don’t see how he was screwed over. If that were true, Coughlin probably should have demanded Gilbride not do that, but each makes their own decisions
The Giants have maintained that their decisions are collaborative. If enough votes were to have Gilbride fired, then Coughlin certainly could make some sort of stand, but it seems unlikely he would get his minority way.
I was able to find a previously unreleased photo from a staffing meeting in the Giants' front office:
"Youth wanted: Gilbride has expressed his concern about the offensive line in the past. But for this season, Gilbride is optimistic that his veteran linemen will be healthy."
"We added some young blood that can come in and look like they have the skill set to be able to play and contribute down the road," Gilbride said. "There is no question, we needed an infusion of talent at that spot -– young talent that would be able to come in and eventually assume starting roles. How soon that will be remains to be seen."
Some are just confused and think he said comments after his firing which he did but he also did while still employed.
He was well aware of the OL issues as most fans were.
I gather the front office did not like his honesty and there is another article where he specifically said the coaching staff had been telling the front office we need to get some OL in here.
The 20011/12 drafts show a disconnect. 2013-15 was when they tried to play catch up.
Some amazing revelations on this thread.
Not only was Jerry Reese responsible for every player brought in from 2004 forward, he also picked Coughlin's staff.
I think it's only fair Coughlin hands over half of each ring to Reese.
I am wrong. I confused player acquisition with the coaching staff. The Giants have maintained that player acquisition is a collab effort. My mistake.
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In comment 16118219 christian said:
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I think it's pretty obvious Gilbride had an involuntary retirement.
If his life's dream was another crack at a HC gig, why did he up and retire on January 2nd, before the coaching interview process even began? If his job and reputation were safe, wouldn't he at least wait to see if he got a call for an interview before abruptly quitting?
If his job was safe, why did the owner effectively say good thing he quit, because he was getting fired.
So with a pretty good sense it was quit or be fired, where would that come from?
This where I think the fan fiction comes into play. We're to believe the mighty Tom Coughlin, whose wife had to tell him to chill, who set the clocks back and the socks up, was getting dragged around like a bitch by Jerry Reese and John Mara?
I think Gilbride took one for Coughlin, and saved them both the indignity of what was about to happen.
Because I don't think Tom Coughlin was anyone's bitch. I think he was firmly in control of his operation and staff.
Gilbride explained that the offense playing so poorly in 2013 probably cost him any chance at a HC gig. If Gilbride took one for Coughlin go voluntarily then I don’t see how he was screwed over. If that were true, Coughlin probably should have demanded Gilbride not do that, but each makes their own decisions
The Giants have maintained that their decisions are collaborative. If enough votes were to have Gilbride fired, then Coughlin certainly could make some sort of stand, but it seems unlikely he would get his minority way.
I was able to find a previously unreleased photo from a staffing meeting in the Giants' front office:
Now that is a good example of solid evidence.
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I was able to find a previously unreleased photo from a staffing meeting in the Giants' front office:
Some amazing revelations on this thread.
Not only was Jerry Reese responsible for every player brought in from 2004 forward, he also picked Coughlin's staff.
I think it's only fair Coughlin hands over half of each ring to Reese.
You mean like Seiffert handing over half his ring to Walsh? 😎
Poor figurehead Tom.
Poor figurehead Tom.
If you would bother yourself for one second to look up, you would see that I said I was wrong and made a mistake.
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Next we're going to hear it was really Jerry Reese in the head set calling plays.
Poor figurehead Tom.
If you would bother yourself for one second to look up, you would see that I said I was wrong and made a mistake.
I was kidding around with Bruce, not addressing you.
Poor figurehead Tom.
Things got much better when they got rid of the old man with the pulled up socks.
2016 Apple, Sheppard, Thompson, Perkins and Adams
2017 Engram, Tomlinson, Webb, Gallman, Moss and Bisnowaty
Looks like 4/11 still in the league. Slight improvement from 2011-15. At least one player was a good LOS player but replaced with a much better one.
Maybe Jerry just needed more time to right the ship.
What is it: Jerry Reese was the bad man unilaterally in charge of all the players on the team from 2004 onward (your assertion above mind you)
Or was Tom Coughlin part of the action and it all really fell apart when he left?
Think this one through sweetheart. But remember you promised two sentences or less.
What is it: Jerry Reese was the bad man unilaterally in charge of all the players on the team from 2004 onward (your assertion above mind you)
Or was Tom Coughlin part of the action and it all really fell apart when he left?
No. It was Reese's words. Pay attention please. More make up stuff from you about what I say.
Think this one through sweetheart. But remember you promised two sentences or less.
Reese
Lines of Scrimmage : 9:22 am : link : reply
“Let me say this: You always miss on some draft picks,” Reese said. “I take full responsibility for every player that’s been on this roster from the time I’ve been director of player personnel until right now, so I’ll take full responsibility — even though everybody’s involved with the grading players, and the players we take. I don’t try to have full control of everything. Our coaching staff is involved, our personnel staff is involved, everybody’s involved.”
Would have been great if he stopped at "I'll take full responsibility" before the bus got going. The beats certainly had fun after that press conference.
I've bolded where Reese said "full responsibility" for you reference.
You said it would have been great if he stopped there.
So what is it Lucille, was Reese fully responsible for all the personnel moves or was Coughlin in on the action?
Leaders take responsibility.
And then later in the same article
“I just don’t think that merits cleaning house and blowing the whole thing up and bringing in a whole new staff in there,’’ Mara said. “There comes a time when you have to do that, I don’t think this is the time and I think people just have to be patient and accept the fact we had a lot of injuries this year.
“Yes, we have missed on some draft picks and some of our free-agent acquisitions haven’t worked out in the past year or two but I still have a lot of confidence in our staff here and our coaches and I think we will get it turned around.’’
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“He (Gilbride) retired and fortunately it didn’t come to any type of situation where he had to be forced out,’’ Mara said Thursday in an interview on WFAN.
And then later in the same article
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There will not be another major shakeup to Coughlin’s staff despite the 7-9 finish.
“I just don’t think that merits cleaning house and blowing the whole thing up and bringing in a whole new staff in there,’’ Mara said. “There comes a time when you have to do that, I don’t think this is the time and I think people just have to be patient and accept the fact we had a lot of injuries this year.
“Yes, we have missed on some draft picks and some of our free-agent acquisitions haven’t worked out in the past year or two but I still have a lot of confidence in our staff here and our coaches and I think we will get it turned around.’’
If you are attempting to prove that some in the Giants wanted Gilbride out, yep, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. If you think this proves that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride then you might want to read it again.
Btw. How are those Bulldogs looking this year?
No. I just posted Reese's words which were in defense of all the poor drafts.
To me it was someone who took responsibility and in the next sentence quickly throws everyone under the bus.
What I expect from leader is to take the bullets and then make moves with actions.
I didn't see anyone from the front office go. Just the coaches.
I can't say I ever learned such a style.
...
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Got it. So you agree Reese was responding for all the personnel moves from the time he was director forward. Thanks for being clear and straightforward.
No. I just posted Reese's words which were in defense of all the poor drafts.
You're wobbling again Lucille, was Reese responsible or not responsible for the players in the time period he described?
This is a yes or no one, you can do this.
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In comment 16118330 christian said:
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Got it. So you agree Reese was responding for all the personnel moves from the time he was director forward. Thanks for being clear and straightforward.
No. I just posted Reese's words which were in defense of all the poor drafts.
You're wobbling again Lucille, was Reese responsible or not responsible for the players in the time period he described?
This is a yes or no one, you can do this.
It's not. It was just Reese's words and my comment about a poor statement after taking responsibility from a key leader in your organization.
Now if you are asking me what I think of Reese's performance overall there are plenty of threads where I have stated that. Just go back to all those threads where you posted the picture as a start when I or others questioned his work.
I think it's weird you posted a quote and can't answer yes or no if you agree with the quote.
But hey you do you Lucille.
I think it's weird you posted a quote and can't answer yes or no if you agree with the quote.
But hey you do you Lucille.
I posted the quote to show someone throwing others under the bus. You said TC did this to KG but I don't see any evidence of this.
You make your assessment and I'll have mine.
Again, I have made clear what I think Jerry's role was. I even termed it the "great destruction of the LOS" and clearly laid out my reasoning.
Follow the pictures "clock".
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that everybody but Gilbride all received some nice leeway that offseason. If he didn't specifically get the screws put to him then I guess everybody else had a nice stash of "Get Out Of Jail Free" cards in their office drawers.
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“He (Gilbride) retired and fortunately it didn’t come to any type of situation where he had to be forced out,’’ Mara said Thursday in an interview on WFAN.
And then later in the same article
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There will not be another major shakeup to Coughlin’s staff despite the 7-9 finish.
“I just don’t think that merits cleaning house and blowing the whole thing up and bringing in a whole new staff in there,’’ Mara said. “There comes a time when you have to do that, I don’t think this is the time and I think people just have to be patient and accept the fact we had a lot of injuries this year.
“Yes, we have missed on some draft picks and some of our free-agent acquisitions haven’t worked out in the past year or two but I still have a lot of confidence in our staff here and our coaches and I think we will get it turned around.’’
If you are attempting to prove that some in the Giants wanted Gilbride out, yep, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. If you think this proves that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride then you might want to read it again.
Btw. How are those Bulldogs looking this year?
You keep saying "some in the Giants wanted Gilbride out" but that quote is attributed to Mara. He's not making that quote unless he was aligned with it, IMO. So it wasn't just a nebulous "some in the Giants" - it was some combination of Mara and/or Coughlin. No one else would have had a vote.
Would it be fair to ask if you think Coughlin would have possessed enough weight at that time to have told Mara no? IMO, Coughlin did have enough power to do so, but for whatever reason, he did not use it. That could be because Coughlin himself recognized that KG should go, or it could be because KG didn't want his job to be saved with a team that no longer wanted him.
But my personal belief is that Coughlin had enough autonomy over his staff that he could have saved KG if he wanted to. And when I combine that with the number of coordinators that TC fired during his time as NYG head coach and the regularity with which the Giants use "retirement" as their preferred method of terminating a staffer with dignity, I have a hard time bucketing KG into a different category.
The only difference was the narrative surrounding the send-off, IMO.
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In comment 16118332 nygiantfan said:
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that everybody but Gilbride all received some nice leeway that offseason. If he didn't specifically get the screws put to him then I guess everybody else had a nice stash of "Get Out Of Jail Free" cards in their office drawers.
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“He (Gilbride) retired and fortunately it didn’t come to any type of situation where he had to be forced out,’’ Mara said Thursday in an interview on WFAN.
And then later in the same article
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There will not be another major shakeup to Coughlin’s staff despite the 7-9 finish.
“I just don’t think that merits cleaning house and blowing the whole thing up and bringing in a whole new staff in there,’’ Mara said. “There comes a time when you have to do that, I don’t think this is the time and I think people just have to be patient and accept the fact we had a lot of injuries this year.
“Yes, we have missed on some draft picks and some of our free-agent acquisitions haven’t worked out in the past year or two but I still have a lot of confidence in our staff here and our coaches and I think we will get it turned around.’’
If you are attempting to prove that some in the Giants wanted Gilbride out, yep, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. If you think this proves that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride then you might want to read it again.
Btw. How are those Bulldogs looking this year?
You keep saying "some in the Giants wanted Gilbride out" but that quote is attributed to Mara. He's not making that quote unless he was aligned with it, IMO. So it wasn't just a nebulous "some in the Giants" - it was some combination of Mara and/or Coughlin. No one else would have had a vote.
Would it be fair to ask if you think Coughlin would have possessed enough weight at that time to have told Mara no? IMO, Coughlin did have enough power to do so, but for whatever reason, he did not use it. That could be because Coughlin himself recognized that KG should go, or it could be because KG didn't want his job to be saved with a team that no longer wanted him.
But my personal belief is that Coughlin had enough autonomy over his staff that he could have saved KG if he wanted to. And when I combine that with the number of coordinators that TC fired during his time as NYG head coach and the regularity with which the Giants use "retirement" as their preferred method of terminating a staffer with dignity, I have a hard time bucketing KG into a different category.
The only difference was the narrative surrounding the send-off, IMO.
Coughlin would have had enough clout to say no to Mara. But, why would he have to if Gilbride was going to retire anyway? You don't believe Gilbride is telling the truth about wanting to retire if he could not get a HC position. I don't have any reason to doubt that he is telling the truth.
Again, there is not close to enough evidence for me that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride, certainly not any 'obvious evidence'.
Coughlin after Gilbride retired:
“The first thing that I said to our owners is that I’m responsible for the coaches,” Coughlin said said on WFAN on Friday. “To think that there’s any one individual who is responsible for the circumstances that we found ourselves in, that’s crazy. Kevin Gilbride is an excellent football coach, he’s an excellent teacher and communicator. His players do respond to him. He works very, very hard at his trade. He has made his mark on this organization.”
Again, maybe Gilbride and Coughlin are both lying, but there still is not any solid evidence that they are lying or that Coughlin screwed over Gilbride.
TC - ( New Window )