If Gettleman lacked that much trust in Judge, my first question is why the hell did he hire him in the first place?
Is it because they all thought they were going to land Rhule and then panicked when Tepper signed him?
Or did Mara get smitten with Judge’s bullshit and “The Patriot Way” that Gettleman just decided to tell him his boss what he wanted to hear and decided he would try and manage him? Play the “adult in the room” to the rookie coach.
From SB46 until Joe Schoen got here but one of the biggest things was keeping Gettleman after 2019 when he fired Shurmur. DG should have been out the door with him.
This basically confirms that Gettleman was kept but was neutered and added nothing of value to what Judge was trying to do. Not that I think Judge was destined for success here but that was the worst possible scenario.
This also means, in my opinion, that DG owns the successes and failures of 2018 and 2019 and Judge pretty much took over starting in 2020.
For better or worse Jones, Barkley, Dex, Solder, Baker all DG.
Thomas, McKinney, Toney (passing on Parsons), Golloday all Judge.
If Gettleman lacked that much trust in Judge, my first question is why the hell did he hire him in the first place?
Is it because they all thought they were going to land Rhule and then panicked when Tepper signed him?
Or did Mara get smitten with Judge’s bullshit and “The Patriot Way” that Gettleman just decided to tell him his boss what he wanted to hear and decided he would try and manage him? Play the “adult in the room” to the rookie coach.
Man that Giants era was bleak.
Do you honestly think Gettleman hired Judge?
Gettleman was kept on because Mara lacked the conviction to can him, but we now know that DG was GM in name only at that point.
But isnt it a good thing that Gettleman tossled for some control? You really think the coach that ran a qb sneak on 3rd and 10 should be authority?
You get to choose between the coach who ran a QB sneak inside his own 5 or the GM who turned off his phone when he had the #2 overall pick. Different shades of incompetence.
If Gettleman lacked that much trust in Judge, my first question is why the hell did he hire him in the first place?
Is it because they all thought they were going to land Rhule and then panicked when Tepper signed him?
Or did Mara get smitten with Judge’s bullshit and “The Patriot Way” that Gettleman just decided to tell him his boss what he wanted to hear and decided he would try and manage him? Play the “adult in the room” to the rookie coach.
Man that Giants era was bleak.
Maras. They destroyed the team. Starting w the forced hiring of McAdoo pushing TC out but not Reese. Etc.
I'm not going to just buy Ebner's version of events as the gospel truth. The guy wouldn't have been even employed by the Giants if it weren't for his special teams buddy Judge - of course he's going to claim Judge was railroaded at every turn.
If Gettleman lacked that much trust in Judge, my first question is why the hell did he hire him in the first place?
Is it because they all thought they were going to land Rhule and then panicked when Tepper signed him?
Or did Mara get smitten with Judge’s bullshit and “The Patriot Way” that Gettleman just decided to tell him his boss what he wanted to hear and decided he would try and manage him? Play the “adult in the room” to the rookie coach.
Man that Giants era was bleak.
Maras. They destroyed the team. Starting w the forced hiring of McAdoo pushing TC out but not Reese. Etc.
The team is destroyed?
RE: RE: RE: What a completely dysfunctional operation
Judge was bad too. But I don’t believe Judge did as much harm to the franchise during his time. I wouldn’t choose either, but I would absolutely not choose Dave.
Gettleman will have a decent legacy with NYG. Drafted a good amount of players who are a big part of this team’s current core. Judge was nearly as bad as Shurmur as HC and that’s saying something.
It’s not particularly close when it comes to DG vs Judge IMO.
It’s also rumored that Gettleman wanted Parsons big time.
I'm about to puke just typing this, but if the choice is Gettleman or Judge making a critical decision -- I'm going Dave.
Puke? After four years of Gettleman and two years of Judge, I was ready to find a nice, normal AFC team to support.
Nate Ebner is hardly a disinterested observer. He's not really much of an observer at all. More like the paid friend Judge whined to when the suits were mean to him about losing.
Gettleman was hired because EA did a solid for his old pal &sold Mara on Gettleman. Again, THE worst hire in NYG history...even worse than Ray.
The Judge hire was worse than the Gettleman hire. I’ll stand by that statement until the end of time.
The worst part is they both were here at the same time. The Giants organization didn’t stand a fucking chance with those 2 running things.
Joe Judge is the worst “anything” this organization has ever had. And so many of us fell for it early on (myself included).
Judge was worse at his job than Gettelman was at his but it wasn’t nearly as impactful. We moved on from Judge very easily. Shoen is still cleaning up the cap.
stuff like this which has influenced my views of ownership. Those who get pissed off at me about being wary of Mara? This is yet another example.
I've said it before, but it was reported that Mara was looking for any excuse to keep Abrams as GM and Judge as HC.
So when Mara starts voicing opinions about personnel matters, I get nervous.
Anyone with an ounce of critical thinking skills realizes this take is 100% correct. The ten year voyage of the post SB 46 titanic had reached the iceberg with the double qb sneak with Jake Fromm against Washington. During this time , the state media (Tynes, Banks/Papa, Paul Schwartz) were publishing ridiculous puff pieces about Abrams/Judge. If the reports about Steve Tisch speaking up and steering them away from keeping the status quo are true then he deserves a lot of credit for saving Mara from himself
Gettleman was hired because EA did a solid for his old pal &sold Mara on Gettleman. Again, THE worst hire in NYG history...even worse than Ray.
The Judge hire was worse than the Gettleman hire. I’ll stand by that statement until the end of time.
The worst part is they both were here at the same time. The Giants organization didn’t stand a fucking chance with those 2 running things.
Joe Judge is the worst “anything” this organization has ever had. And so many of us fell for it early on (myself included).
Huge disagree.
I actually think Judge has the stuff to be a successful HC. Not that I would trade Daboll for him, but Judge was dead in the water the minute he was hired with Gettleman.
Who was the QB on that 3rd and 9 inside the 5 yard line that Gettleman gave him? I believe that was Jake Fromm. And Judge (rightly) felt the best of all possible outcomes was a QB sneak with a completely non-competitive player at QB.
I've never understood the outrage directed at Judge for that decision. The outrage should've been directed at who was responsible for having a Jake Fromm on the roster. This was a complete shit show of an offense, and any scenario where Jake Fromm was throwing the ball inside the 5 yard line, the best realistic scenario was a safety. The worst-case would've been a defensive TD from the opposition, and that was probably more realistic than a safety or any other outcome.
Gettleman was the worst hire in the franchise's history. The game had passed him by at least 5 years before he was hired.
Gettleman will have a decent legacy with NYG. Drafted a good amount of players who are a big part of this team’s current core. Judge was nearly as bad as Shurmur as HC and that’s saying something.
It’s not particularly close when it comes to DG vs Judge IMO.
It’s also rumored that Gettleman wanted Parsons big time.
I'm not in any one camp, but can't you say that the Giants' drafts in 2000 and 2001 were better than 2018 and 2019? AT, McKinney, Olujari are pretty key to the core, for sure.
Gettleman was hired because EA did a solid for his old pal &sold Mara on Gettleman. Again, THE worst hire in NYG history...even worse than Ray.
The Judge hire was worse than the Gettleman hire. I’ll stand by that statement until the end of time.
The worst part is they both were here at the same time. The Giants organization didn’t stand a fucking chance with those 2 running things.
Joe Judge is the worst “anything” this organization has ever had. And so many of us fell for it early on (myself included).
Huge disagree.
I actually think Judge has the stuff to be a successful HC. Not that I would trade Daboll for him, but Judge was dead in the water the minute he was hired with Gettleman.
Who was the QB on that 3rd and 9 inside the 5 yard line that Gettleman gave him? I believe that was Jake Fromm. And Judge (rightly) felt the best of all possible outcomes was a QB sneak with a completely non-competitive player at QB.
I've never understood the outrage directed at Judge for that decision. The outrage should've been directed at who was responsible for having a Jake Fromm on the roster. This was a complete shit show of an offense, and any scenario where Jake Fromm was throwing the ball inside the 5 yard line, the best realistic scenario was a safety. The worst-case would've been a defensive TD from the opposition, and that was probably more realistic than a safety or any other outcome.
Gettleman was the worst hire in the franchise's history. The game had passed him by at least 5 years before he was hired.
Judge proved himself to be nowhere near head coach material when he started saying bat shit crazy stuff in late season press conferences in a desperate attempt to save his job.
That ain't leadership.
RE: RE: RE: What a completely dysfunctional operation
If Gettleman lacked that much trust in Judge, my first question is why the hell did he hire him in the first place?
Is it because they all thought they were going to land Rhule and then panicked when Tepper signed him?
Or did Mara get smitten with Judge’s bullshit and “The Patriot Way” that Gettleman just decided to tell him his boss what he wanted to hear and decided he would try and manage him? Play the “adult in the room” to the rookie coach.
Man that Giants era was bleak.
Maras. They destroyed the team. Starting w the forced hiring of McAdoo pushing TC out but not Reese. Etc.
The team is destroyed?
Sorry. Utter dysfunctional and shitty? I guess you liked the last years of Eli's career and the subsequent awesome football over that time period this pertains to. Want to quibble over a descriptor? Sure. I'm wrong. It was an amazing time and the Mara's awesome choices during the time period max e the team a joy to behold
with a head coach decision that he's not aligned with. It's a recipe for disaster. I understand there are only 32 of these jobs so so I guess the strategy is try and outlast the coach?
That 2021 draft seemed like such a power struggle between DG and Judge and it cost then both.
Makes me wonder if DG had any say in the Shurmur and Judge hirings.
Gettleman was hired because EA did a solid for his old pal &sold Mara on Gettleman. Again, THE worst hire in NYG history...even worse than Ray.
The Judge hire was worse than the Gettleman hire. I’ll stand by that statement until the end of time.
The worst part is they both were here at the same time. The Giants organization didn’t stand a fucking chance with those 2 running things.
Joe Judge is the worst “anything” this organization has ever had. And so many of us fell for it early on (myself included).
I'll pat myself on the back for never falling for Judge, but I never thought he'd end up being one of the worst coaches this team ever had. I mean, who could see that coming? But, I was still very much wait and see after the first year. Well unfortunately, we all got to see it eventually.
from the equally damning issues of bad/wasted draft picks includind such gems in the 1st round as DeAndre Baker and Kadarius Toney. Aside from bad free agent investments (Nate Solder and Kenny Golladay to name just a couple). Despite serious salary cap issues and nothing to show for it...
Keep this in mind:
Ownership decided Tom Coughlin was the problem and kept everyone else.
Ownership promoted Ben McAdoo to HC. (Remember the team rushed this when they were tricked by the Eagles into thinking Philly wanted to hire him).
Ownership decided to hire Dave Gettleman, without any serious GM search.
Ownership and Gettleman hired Pat Shurmur.
Ownership and Gettleman hired Joe Judge. Their original target was Rhule and he wouldn't even meet with them, and was also a disaster in Carolina. The Giants then turned to Judge, a little-known special teams coach from New England.
Ownership wanted to promote Abramas to GM and keep Judge, but the unbelievable meltdown by Judge at the end of the season made those options virtually untenable.
By some miracle, ownership landed on Schoen, who lobbied hard for Daboll.
Ownership wanted to promote Abramas to GM and keep Judge, but the unbelievable meltdown by Judge at the end of the season made those options virtually untenable.
By some miracle, ownership landed on Schoen, who lobbied hard for Daboll.
Whatever Mara initially “wanted” to do, he didn’t do, I can’t blame him for something that didn’t happen. Judge was fired and from all accounts Schoen has been given full authority to reshape the front office. Maybe Cowden is hired in the next few weeks as well.
from the equally damning issues of bad/wasted draft picks includind such gems in the 1st round as DeAndre Baker and Kadarius Toney. Aside from bad free agent investments (Nate Solder and Kenny Golladay to name just a couple). Despite serious salary cap issues and nothing to show for it...
Keep this in mind:
Ownership decided Tom Coughlin was the problem and kept everyone else.
Ownership promoted Ben McAdoo to HC. (Remember the team rushed this when they were tricked by the Eagles into thinking Philly wanted to hire him).
2015 was the watershed moment I believe.
After 3 losing seasons, with a poorly constructed roster, an undisciplined and underperforming team, and a QB who wasn't done but certainly on the back 9 -- the Giants should have had a hard reset and brought in brand new people with no emotional ties to the glory years.
Ownership wanted to promote Abramas to GM and keep Judge, but the unbelievable meltdown by Judge at the end of the season made those options virtually untenable.
By some miracle, ownership landed on Schoen, who lobbied hard for Daboll.
Whatever Mara initially “wanted” to do, he didn’t do, I can’t blame him for something that didn’t happen. Judge was fired and from all accounts Schoen has been given full authority to reshape the front office. Maybe Cowden is hired in the next few weeks as well.
Look at my last post. The batting average is horrific. My sense is Schoen and Daboll are calling the shots, but there are years of horrific decision-making...just horrific.
Let's cut to the chase... we now know that the coaching staff and front office were not even on the same page. We got that sense for a number of years. This happened under ownership. They knew about it. And they let it fester.
After 3 losing seasons, with a poorly constructed roster, an undisciplined and underperforming team, and a QB who wasn't done but certainly on the back 9 -- the Giants should have had a hard reset and brought in brand new people with no emotional ties to the glory years.
You are close to touching on another key point in history...
It was apparent that Eli was DONE and McAdoo wanted to move on. The extreme fan backlash when we benched Eli scared the shit out of John Mara. He even said "we did not expect the fans to get so emotional".
I truly think we would have found our next QB that off season but ended up keeping Eli because Mara though that is what the fans wanted.
Now, we cannot assume the Giants would have taken Josh Allen. For all we know we would have Darnold or Rosen especially when you look at all of the poor decisions that DG made.
from the equally damning issues of bad/wasted draft picks includind such gems in the 1st round as DeAndre Baker and Kadarius Toney. Aside from bad free agent investments (Nate Solder and Kenny Golladay to name just a couple). Despite serious salary cap issues and nothing to show for it...
Keep this in mind:
Ownership decided Tom Coughlin was the problem and kept everyone else.
Ownership promoted Ben McAdoo to HC. (Remember the team rushed this when they were tricked by the Eagles into thinking Philly wanted to hire him).
2015 was the watershed moment I believe.
After 3 losing seasons, with a poorly constructed roster, an undisciplined and underperforming team, and a QB who wasn't done but certainly on the back 9 -- the Giants should have had a hard reset and brought in brand new people with no emotional ties to the glory years.
There were a few watershed moments. They seemed to never get the GM and HC on the same page. "We'll fire Coughlin and hope Reese gets better." "We'll fire Reese and hope the guy who lost out to him the first go around is the answer despite his advanced age." "We'll get rid of Shurmur but keep Gettleman". And let's not even get into the general feeling that this team was close with Eli Manning and only needed to be tweaked, including taking a RB with the #2 overall pick.
Not completely uncommon for teams moving off a franchise legend. Decisions were made to return to the Eli glory years, not necessarily what was best for the franchise.
The Chris Mara days are over. Schoen is in total control. That much seems obvious.
What exactly are the Chris Mara days,because I'm not sure you'd get a consensus on whether or not they existed.
There were many rumors that he had his own draft personnel evaluations and made them known. Couldn’t have been good for the process. It was at the very least a terrible organizational structure with the top personnel guys reporting to both him and the GM.
RE: RE: RE: You watch these video's of the Giants war room
The Chris Mara days are over. Schoen is in total control. That much seems obvious.
What exactly are the Chris Mara days,because I'm not sure you'd get a consensus on whether or not they existed.
The guy was sitting in the front row in every draft room. To suggest that he DIDN'T have any impact or influence over who was drafted (not saying all draft picks) is foolish. There are dozens of other family members who did not get to sit in that room.
I also think the fan perception the Giants were a first-rate, all class, well-ran shop was a myth.
In this general period of time the equipment guys were ripping off fans, the video guy was either a pathological liar or got beat up at work, they employed a bunch of scouting folks that have trash reputations, and Gettleman well enough said.
I couldn't be more glad Schoen is here and cleaning house. The organization was broken from the inside out.
Gettleman, and Judge were all awful. I think Mara lucked into Schoen and Daboll. He definitely wanted to keep Judge, but Judge's meltdowns at the end of the season, including his two QB sneaks and wretched press conferences, made that impossible. Tisch was also rightly pressuring Mara to fire Judge. It was pretty well known that the better GM candidates like Schoen would not consider the Giants if they had to accept Judge.
from the equally damning issues of bad/wasted draft picks includind such gems in the 1st round as DeAndre Baker and Kadarius Toney. Aside from bad free agent investments (Nate Solder and Kenny Golladay to name just a couple). Despite serious salary cap issues and nothing to show for it...
Keep this in mind:
Ownership decided Tom Coughlin was the problem and kept everyone else.
Ownership promoted Ben McAdoo to HC. (Remember the team rushed this when they were tricked by the Eagles into thinking Philly wanted to hire him).
2015 was the watershed moment I believe.
After 3 losing seasons, with a poorly constructed roster, an undisciplined and underperforming team, and a QB who wasn't done but certainly on the back 9 -- the Giants should have had a hard reset and brought in brand new people with no emotional ties to the glory years.
There were a few watershed moments. They seemed to never get the GM and HC on the same page. "We'll fire Coughlin and hope Reese gets better." "We'll fire Reese and hope the guy who lost out to him the first go around is the answer despite his advanced age." "We'll get rid of Shurmur but keep Gettleman". And let's not even get into the general feeling that this team was close with Eli Manning and only needed to be tweaked, including taking a RB with the #2 overall pick.
It could've been worse. It took Moses 40 years to get out of the desert. 10 or 12 years doesn't seem so bad.
The Barkley situation will tell us just who involved
Not completely uncommon for teams moving off a franchise legend. Decisions were made to return to the Eli glory years, not necessarily what was best for the franchise.
Better to cut a year early than a year late, unless you're NFL royalty, I guess.
Not completely uncommon for teams moving off a franchise legend. Decisions were made to return to the Eli glory years, not necessarily what was best for the franchise.
Better to cut a year early than a year late, unless you're NFL royalty, I guess.
There were a decent amount of BBIers that believed Manning deserved to play as long as he wanted because of his former success.
Unsurprisingly the reward for that was a bunch of losing and Manning get his ass pummeled.
I've never understood the outrage directed at Judge for that decision. The outrage should've been directed at who was responsible for having a Jake Fromm on the roster. This was a complete shit show of an offense, and any scenario where Jake Fromm was throwing the ball inside the 5 yard line, the best realistic scenario was a safety. The worst-case would've been a defensive TD from the opposition, and that was probably more realistic than a safety or any other outcome.
Gettleman was the worst hire in the franchise's history. The game had passed him by at least 5 years before he was hired.
Except we have a control to test this hypothesis, by the name of Glennon. Glennon had a long track record as an acceptable NFL backup. He was tossing multiple TDs in certain games for a horrendous Jaguars team just months before arriving at MetLife. And when he played for Judge, it looked like he had never played football before.
I think that’s solid evidence that Judge was utterly incompetent. Same goes for Freddie Kitchens, who is currently TE coach for the N Carolina Tar Heels.
I've never understood the outrage directed at Judge for that decision. The outrage should've been directed at who was responsible for having a Jake Fromm on the roster. This was a complete shit show of an offense, and any scenario where Jake Fromm was throwing the ball inside the 5 yard line, the best realistic scenario was a safety. The worst-case would've been a defensive TD from the opposition, and that was probably more realistic than a safety or any other outcome.
Gettleman was the worst hire in the franchise's history. The game had passed him by at least 5 years before he was hired.
Except we have a control to test this hypothesis, by the name of Glennon. Glennon had a long track record as an acceptable NFL backup. He was tossing multiple TDs in certain games for a horrendous Jaguars team just months before arriving at MetLife. And when he played for Judge, it looked like he had never played football before.
I think that’s solid evidence that Judge was utterly incompetent. Same goes for Freddie Kitchens, who is currently TE coach for the N Carolina Tar Heels.
Took the words out of my mouth cosmicj. Judge has yet to show anything that suggests he'll a good HC. His second go-round with the Pats has been really bad, to the point that they've shifted him to a coaching position that sounds like he'll have LESS regular interaction with the players.
And I don't care if you have Daffy Duck at QB, nothing can justify those QB sneaks. So you basically give up because you're afraid of surrendering a defensive score when your team is 4-12, going nowhere, playing a game that only counts for pride? What happened to "Every play will have a life and history of its own" when you're scared of what might happen due to a play against a different opponent the week before? You lack the confidence to even run a RB dive into the line on 3rd down, which would probably get you a similar result but at least gives you a chance to maybe break a play? After you've puffed your chest out in pressers and proclaimed your team will have a "punch you in the mouth for 60 minutes" mentality?
All those sneaks proved was that Judge preferred to lose respectably (and even at that, he failed miserably) than attempt to instill an attitude that the team would actually compete, regardless of who's on the field. As I've said before, I'm glad that play happened, because if it didn't, we might very well be looking at a different (and worse) GM and coach at this very moment. But I can't agree that the play was the right thing to do, and based on all the ridicule Judge received from Giants fans and outside observers, I don't think I'm alone in that opinion.
Judge has gone on to New England to ruin another QB, so
The NFL is full of some really bad owners; that’s why the same teams are competitive every year and why others are not. At least Mara has the balls to more it less admit he’s screwed up and now seems to be getting it right. I suggest y’all look forward, not behind.
at this point anyone would be a fool not to challenge a Joe Judge decision -- he's proved to be an incredibly bad offensive coach at New England this past year.
He may know special teams - but the Giants special teams under him were not great - he may be another in a long line of little Bill coaches that is a one-trick pony
The head of PR for the team was going on twitter rants at the end of last season bashing people who were critical of the god awful process for the past decade. It was a complete and utter shit show
Gettleman will have a decent legacy with NYG. Drafted a good amount of players who are a big part of this team’s current core. Judge was nearly as bad as Shurmur as HC and that’s saying something.
It’s not particularly close when it comes to DG vs Judge IMO.
It’s also rumored that Gettleman wanted Parsons big time.
It says even more that you think Shurmur was worse than Judge.
most of you were gaga for Judge after his first season here. He was the young gun, the budding star coach. the guy building character and comraderie; Who will forget him sliding in the showing his kinship with the players, his vaunted SEC background. Comical seeing some of the very same people bashing the shit out of him on this thread.
Mara is not a bad person or a bad owner in the Snyder mode. It would just be difficult finding one who made as many bad decisions in a row.
Gettleman will have a decent legacy with NYG. Drafted a good amount of players who are a big part of this team’s current core. Judge was nearly as bad as Shurmur as HC and that’s saying something.
It’s not particularly close when it comes to DG vs Judge IMO.
It’s also rumored that Gettleman wanted Parsons big time.
I dont think Gettleman will ever be remembered fondly, but I do agree that if you were to ask me to choose who I would rather have make a football decision Gettleman or Judge, it would not be even close. It would be Gettleman every day of the week.
the main problem at the time he was let go. Coaching is the biggest thing in the NFL, along with QB play, and Eli was declining at the time.
One year ago most on this board were predicting 3-6 wins. With all the injuries prior to the season, and those occurring early on (Shepard, Aaron Robinson) most figured no way they make the playoffs.
Except they had a good head coach, who hired good coordinators.
from the equally damning issues of bad/wasted draft picks includind such gems in the 1st round as DeAndre Baker and Kadarius Toney. Aside from bad free agent investments (Nate Solder and Kenny Golladay to name just a couple). Despite serious salary cap issues and nothing to show for it...
Keep this in mind:
Ownership decided Tom Coughlin was the problem and kept everyone else.
Ownership promoted Ben McAdoo to HC. (Remember the team rushed this when they were tricked by the Eagles into thinking Philly wanted to hire him).
2015 was the watershed moment I believe.
After 3 losing seasons, with a poorly constructed roster, an undisciplined and underperforming team, and a QB who wasn't done but certainly on the back 9 -- the Giants should have had a hard reset and brought in brand new people with no emotional ties to the glory years.
There were a few watershed moments. They seemed to never get the GM and HC on the same page. "We'll fire Coughlin and hope Reese gets better." "We'll fire Reese and hope the guy who lost out to him the first go around is the answer despite his advanced age." "We'll get rid of Shurmur but keep Gettleman". And let's not even get into the general feeling that this team was close with Eli Manning and only needed to be tweaked, including taking a RB with the #2 overall pick.
It could've been worse. It took Moses 40 years to get out of the desert. 10 or 12 years doesn't seem so bad.
I would say the last 10 years of Giants football has been biblical in it's disaster.
the main problem at the time he was let go. Coaching is the biggest thing in the NFL, along with QB play, and Eli was declining at the time.
One year ago most on this board were predicting 3-6 wins. With all the injuries prior to the season, and those occurring early on (Shepard, Aaron Robinson) most figured no way they make the playoffs.
Except they had a good head coach, who hired good coordinators.
Kevin gilbride was the problem. He was replaced. Problems got worse, not better.
Tom Coughlin was the problem. He was replaced. Problems got worse, not better. Eli Manning was the problem, he was replaced. Problems got worse, not better. Daniel Jones was the problem and we finally got a front office in place that understood that the roster was the problem.
Tom Coughlin didn't suddenly forget how to coach. Reese and Ross left it Bare of talent with their horrible drafts. The team was gutted of any talent. Vince Lombardi if reincarnated couldn't get more out of the roster.
the main problem at the time he was let go. Coaching is the biggest thing in the NFL, along with QB play, and Eli was declining at the time.
One year ago most on this board were predicting 3-6 wins. With all the injuries prior to the season, and those occurring early on (Shepard, Aaron Robinson) most figured no way they make the playoffs.
Except they had a good head coach, who hired good coordinators.
Kevin gilbride was the problem. He was replaced. Problems got worse, not better.
Tom Coughlin was the problem. He was replaced. Problems got worse, not better. Eli Manning was the problem, he was replaced. Problems got worse, not better. Daniel Jones was the problem and we finally got a front office in place that understood that the roster was the problem.
Tom Coughlin didn't suddenly forget how to coach. Reese and Ross left it Bare of talent with their horrible drafts. The team was gutted of any talent. Vince Lombardi if reincarnated couldn't get more out of the roster.
As with most things, there is no one singular reason.
Tom Coughlin was not the problem, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't losing a little zip on his fastball. By the end of his time coaching, TC was letting players get away with things that he would never have tolerated earlier in his tenure (OBJ vs. Josh Norman is the prime example) - was that out of desperation to win and not having enough talent in general to risk having his best player tune out, or was it because TC's fire was just not burning quite as hot by the end? Certainly there wasn't the leaguewide demand for his coaching skills after his time at NYG that many fans here claimed there would be.
Did TC deserve a better exit than he received? Absolutely. Should JR have been shown the door along with TC? Absolutely. Does that mean that TC bears no responsibility for the downturn at the end of his time here? No way, IMO.
Gettleman was hired because EA did a solid for his old pal &sold Mara on Gettleman. Again, THE worst hire in NYG history...even worse than Ray.
The Judge hire was worse than the Gettleman hire. I’ll stand by that statement until the end of time.
The worst part is they both were here at the same time. The Giants organization didn’t stand a fucking chance with those 2 running things.
Joe Judge is the worst “anything” this organization has ever had. And so many of us fell for it early on (myself included).
Nailed it!
However, I never bought in on Judge. I hated the Judge hire from day one. There was no question in my mind that he was full of shit. Full disclosure...I was rooting hard for Matt Rhule. I guess that wouldn't have ended well either.
Ruined the backend of Eli's career and TC had little to work with overall. After round 2 is more on your front office imv. Plenty of round 1/2 busts.
Judge had significant input overall. He just fell apart as the season spiraled out of control. He started with little on the roster outside a few players.
2018-21 drafts need a couple more years to see what the real impact is. Free agency was terrible overall and Galloday was the worst signing I can recall.
If Jones doesn't get hurt in 2021, Judge probably gets another year.
Judge didn't lose any games I thought we'd win. The implosion occurred when the team was cooked anyway. But people were hyped over him for the dumbest reasons. Those threads about practicing with wet footballs were hilarious. Judge was boomer catnip. People gave him a pass for Garrett's offense, which was always bizarre to me.
Judge was on pace to win 6 wins in 2021 before Jones went down. They won 9 with Daboll the following year. How much of that is great coaching with Daboll vs. bad coaching with Judge? Personally, I think the win differential was great coaching - I don't think Judge punched significantly below the team's talent, which is why I think DG sucks more.
the main problem at the time he was let go. Coaching is the biggest thing in the NFL, along with QB play, and Eli was declining at the time.
One year ago most on this board were predicting 3-6 wins. With all the injuries prior to the season, and those occurring early on (Shepard, Aaron Robinson) most figured no way they make the playoffs.
Except they had a good head coach, who hired good coordinators.
Kevin gilbride was the problem. He was replaced. Problems got worse, not better.
Tom Coughlin was the problem. He was replaced. Problems got worse, not better. Eli Manning was the problem, he was replaced. Problems got worse, not better. Daniel Jones was the problem and we finally got a front office in place that understood that the roster was the problem.
Tom Coughlin didn't suddenly forget how to coach. Reese and Ross left it Bare of talent with their horrible drafts. The team was gutted of any talent. Vince Lombardi if reincarnated couldn't get more out of the roster.
As with most things, there is no one singular reason.
Tom Coughlin was not the problem, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't losing a little zip on his fastball. By the end of his time coaching, TC was letting players get away with things that he would never have tolerated earlier in his tenure (OBJ vs. Josh Norman is the prime example) - was that out of desperation to win and not having enough talent in general to risk having his best player tune out, or was it because TC's fire was just not burning quite as hot by the end? Certainly there wasn't the leaguewide demand for his coaching skills after his time at NYG that many fans here claimed there would be.
Did TC deserve a better exit than he received? Absolutely. Should JR have been shown the door along with TC? Absolutely. Does that mean that TC bears no responsibility for the downturn at the end of his time here? No way, IMO.
Everyone takes some culpability. By the end of Tom Coughlins tenure, he was completely neutered. Coaching decisions were essentially forced on him (mcadoo for gilbride) and he had less say in roster decisions like the "basketball on grass" and the jpp of tight ends that we all heard.
Everyone bears responsibility when the team fails, but to me the biggest failure was Reese bringing in Ross. The half measures killed the team and it took years, but they finally understood that patchwork measures and half assed measures don't work. Tom Coughlin was fighting for his job, which is exactly why the obj incident happened as it did. I believe that whole heartedly. If Tom Coughlin was in control, he would never tolerate that.
I don't care how they got here, but I'm glad that they did.
But look at the team now and the players that shined last year, most were drafted by DG. Look at every player stat that played either under Shurmur and Judge or Judge and Daboll and every player had their worst career stats under Judge.
Jones had a great year for a Rookie under Shurmur, basically did nothing under Judge.
Barkley was having a bad year before he got injured while playing for Judge
Thomas was terrible and now an All-Pro
Engram (Not with the Giants) became a pro bowler in Jacksonville
It is amazing how bad the Judge era was, I believe as bad as DG was as GM he was forced to hire Judge because Belichek gave the Maras a thumbs up.
It doesnt matter now, we seem to have the right pieces in place to get on a consistent winning organization.
the main problem at the time he was let go. Coaching is the biggest thing in the NFL, along with QB play, and Eli was declining at the time.
One year ago most on this board were predicting 3-6 wins. With all the injuries prior to the season, and those occurring early on (Shepard, Aaron Robinson) most figured no way they make the playoffs.
Except they had a good head coach, who hired good coordinators.
Kevin gilbride was the problem. He was replaced. Problems got worse, not better.
Tom Coughlin was the problem. He was replaced. Problems got worse, not better. Eli Manning was the problem, he was replaced. Problems got worse, not better. Daniel Jones was the problem and we finally got a front office in place that understood that the roster was the problem.
Tom Coughlin didn't suddenly forget how to coach. Reese and Ross left it Bare of talent with their horrible drafts. The team was gutted of any talent. Vince Lombardi if reincarnated couldn't get more out of the roster.
As with most things, there is no one singular reason.
Tom Coughlin was not the problem, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't losing a little zip on his fastball. By the end of his time coaching, TC was letting players get away with things that he would never have tolerated earlier in his tenure (OBJ vs. Josh Norman is the prime example) - was that out of desperation to win and not having enough talent in general to risk having his best player tune out, or was it because TC's fire was just not burning quite as hot by the end? Certainly there wasn't the leaguewide demand for his coaching skills after his time at NYG that many fans here claimed there would be.
Did TC deserve a better exit than he received? Absolutely. Should JR have been shown the door along with TC? Absolutely. Does that mean that TC bears no responsibility for the downturn at the end of his time here? No way, IMO.
Everyone takes some culpability. By the end of Tom Coughlins tenure, he was completely neutered. Coaching decisions were essentially forced on him (mcadoo for gilbride) and he had less say in roster decisions like the "basketball on grass" and the jpp of tight ends that we all heard.
Everyone bears responsibility when the team fails, but to me the biggest failure was Reese bringing in Ross. The half measures killed the team and it took years, but they finally understood that patchwork measures and half assed measures don't work. Tom Coughlin was fighting for his job, which is exactly why the obj incident happened as it did. I believe that whole heartedly. If Tom Coughlin was in control, he would never tolerate that.
I don't care how they got here, but I'm glad that they did.
Bull-fucking-shit.
Go run along now and play with the other fanfic authors.
Ruined the backend of Eli's career and TC had little to work with overall. After round 2 is more on your front office imv. Plenty of round 1/2 busts.
Judge had significant input overall. He just fell apart as the season spiraled out of control. He started with little on the roster outside a few players.
2018-21 drafts need a couple more years to see what the real impact is. Free agency was terrible overall and Galloday was the worst signing I can recall.
This is cute.
Can't wait for you to forget which of these two handles you're signed in with.
1) Marc Ross was hired in 2007 to backfill Reese as director of college scouting, and contributed to a number of solid drafts before things fell apart
2) Are we to believe the famously control freak Tom Coughlin was relegated to passenger after he won his 2nd championship?
3) Are we to believe Tom Coughlin, one of the better WR coaches of that era was against investing heavily in that position?
4) Are we to believe Tom Coughlin was not an advocate of drafting Justin Pugh from his alma mater, nor an advocate for drafting Ereck Flowers, a player he praised and then signed to the Jags?
1) Marc Ross was hired in 2007 to backfill Reese as director of college scouting, and contributed to a number of solid drafts before things fell apart
2) Are we to believe the famously control freak Tom Coughlin was relegated to passenger after he won his 2nd championship?
3) Are we to believe Tom Coughlin, one of the better WR coaches of that era was against investing heavily in that position?
4) Are we to believe Tom Coughlin was not an advocate of drafting Justin Pugh from his alma mater, nor an advocate for drafting Ereck Flowers, a player he praised and then signed to the Jags?
+1.
It was always organizational success which then became an organizational failure. This idea that we are going to piecemeal who gets the credit and blame among people is ridiculous.
In hindsight, everyone should have been fired after 2015, but retaining Reese was not outrageous. He was a young GM with a solid track record at that point who inherited both the HC and QB. The error was more giving him a win or else mandate in 2016. It would have been healthier for the franchise to extend him. Mara got himself in trouble with all the win or else mandates he gave out.
Looks like a another "Dumber" moment for GD. "Lines of scrimmage" was started in hopes the Giants would again be a team with strong lines. The building blocks of great teams. The ones destroyed under Reese/Ross. I just agreed with TB56 posts.
Don't make another accusation like the one you just did. Big enough to apologize?
I also don't think a 69 year old HC is going to be in high demand for a HC'ing job. Now if TC was 59 he would have coached again imv. Maybe after a year.
but I do want to address the original Ebner story...
Like him or not - Gettleman got the players that the coaches wanted at least as far as free agency is concerned. I find that to not be debatable.
- He allowed Bechter to bring over a lot of Cardinals on defense.
- He didn't bring in much for Shurmur and I think that was a funciton of how milquetoast a head coach he was.
- He brought in a lot of Garrett's former players and a lot of players that Judge wanted.
Gettleman and Judge have proven to be awful but I have problems with the narrative.
Don't make another accusation like the one you just did.
Not at all. Just comfortable enough calling out your foolishness and in this case a lie. I just think you are Gdumber and weak so I was not expecting a apology but thanks for confirming....again.
Don't make another accusation like the one you just did.
Not at all. Just comfortable enough calling out your foolishness and in this case a lie. I just think you are Gdumber and weak so I was not expecting a apology but thanks for confirming....again.
Hey, we finally agree on something! You were never getting an apology from me and you likely never will.
But there was no lie. Both of those handles are yours.
the main problem at the time he was let go. Coaching is the biggest thing in the NFL, along with QB play, and Eli was declining at the time.
One year ago most on this board were predicting 3-6 wins. With all the injuries prior to the season, and those occurring early on (Shepard, Aaron Robinson) most figured no way they make the playoffs.
Except they had a good head coach, who hired good coordinators.
Eli was declining in 2015? Where he threw for 4,400 yards and had a 35/14 TD/INT ratio? Where the offense put up 49 points against the Saints but lost because the defense had no talent and gave up 52? That team had a lead with under two minutes only to lose due to a hapless defense FIVE times.
Coughlin wasn't blameless in 2015, but Eli had a very good year and went to the Pro Bowl that year. It wasn't until 2016 that folks started thinking that he was on the decline, and that just happened to coincide with McAdoo taking over and putting in an atrocious offense.
Don't make another accusation like the one you just did.
Not at all. Just comfortable enough calling out your foolishness and in this case a lie. I just think you are Gdumber and weak so I was not expecting a apology but thanks for confirming....again.
Hey, we finally agree on something! You were never getting an apology from me and you likely never will.
But there was no lie. Both of those handles are yours.
Last chance. Either correct your mistake and apologize or I will report this and they can handle as they see fit. I will not have my integrity questioned.
In comment 16121238 Gatorade Dunk said:
Hey, we finally agree on something! You were never getting an apology from me and you likely never will.
But there was no lie. Both of those handles are yours.
Last chance. Either correct your mistake and apologize or I will report this and they can handle as they see fit. I will not have my integrity questioned.
Listen, I'm just speaking in terms of probability - the likelihood of two separate and distinct individuals sharing almost identical writing styles that contain almost identical (and largely fictional) retellings of alternative history is greater than zero, but not by much. We can leave it at that.
In comment 16121238 Gatorade Dunk said:
Hey, we finally agree on something! You were never getting an apology from me and you likely never will.
But there was no lie. Both of those handles are yours.
Last chance. Either correct your mistake and apologize or I will report this and they can handle as they see fit. I will not have my integrity questioned.
Listen, I'm just speaking in terms of probability - the likelihood of two separate and distinct individuals sharing almost identical writing styles that contain almost identical (and largely fictional) retellings of alternative history is greater than zero, but not by much. We can leave it at that.
Like always more garbage from you I am not interested in.
TB56 is just another of hundreds of posters who have shared similar thoughts to how bad Reese/Ross were over time.
Listen, the only actual truth is you don't like or agree with it and reside in a much smaller percentage who sees it differently. When it doesn't go your way you lose control and people like you don't like that. It's your character.
Regardless, this former Marine Officer told you what would happen if you did not apologize and the moderator can take action or not. You crossed a line.
In comment 16121238 Gatorade Dunk said:
Hey, we finally agree on something! You were never getting an apology from me and you likely never will.
But there was no lie. Both of those handles are yours.
Last chance. Either correct your mistake and apologize or I will report this and they can handle as they see fit. I will not have my integrity questioned.
Listen, I'm just speaking in terms of probability - the likelihood of two separate and distinct individuals sharing almost identical writing styles that contain almost identical (and largely fictional) retellings of alternative history is greater than zero, but not by much. We can leave it at that.
Like always more garbage from you I am not interested in.
TB56 is just another of hundreds of posters who have shared similar thoughts to how bad Reese/Ross were over time.
Listen, the only actual truth is you don't like or agree with it and reside in a much smaller percentage who sees it differently. When it doesn't go your way you lose control and people like you don't like that. It's your character.
Regardless, this former Marine Officer told you what would happen if you did not apologize and the moderator can take action or not. You crossed a line.
You weren't even smart enough to delete your own ToS violation from the subject line. Bravo.
It was always organizational success which then became an organizational failure. This idea that we are going to piecemeal who gets the credit and blame among people is ridiculous.
In hindsight, everyone should have been fired after 2015, but retaining Reese was not outrageous. He was a young GM with a solid track record at that point who inherited both the HC and QB. The error was more giving him a win or else mandate in 2016. It would have been healthier for the franchise to extend him. Mara got himself in trouble with all the win or else mandates he gave out.
Yup business ops 101. Mara seemingly didn't want to look too deeply into why the organization was failing.
RE: The Barkley situation will tell us just who involved
It's only meddling if you don't acknowledge John Mara is a minority owner, but team president. And Tim McDonnell (Mara), isn't an owner, but is head of player personnel.
Tom Coughlin was a mediocre-at-best regular season coach between 2009-2012. You can talk about some of the defensive talent shortfalls/scheming in 2009 but that 2010 team was a mess...turnover prone, undisciplined, propensity to check out for a half or not even show up. They had the talent to hang with anyone but lost to Jon Kitna at home by multiple touchdowns, lost to Vince Young by almost 20 despite outgaining them by like 300 yards. I haven't even mentioned the Miracle of the Meadowlands.
The 2009 team had some structural issues but let's not forget they got blown the f%ck out by a terrible Panthers team at home in the last Giant stadium game with the playoffs on the line.
The 2012 team again had the talent to blow out both NFC champion teams but basically checked out of several games in the 2nd half of the season and lost to the 4-12 Eagles.
That whole era is saved by a God-tier Eli performance in 2011 and a Victor Cruz 99-yard touchdown to galvanize a team that was on the verge of falling apart again (see loss to Wash at home the week prior).
Contrast this with the 2005-2008 era where they always pulled out victories in the moments when their backs were against the wall even despite injuries.
Should Reese have been fired along with Coughlin? Yes. However both should have been fired after 2013 along with the rest of the coaching staff along as well as a lot of the front office to try and do a 2013 equivalent of the Schoen/Daboll rebuild to maximize Eli's last few remaining years.
Lambuth, I think that's a very good observation. The prevailing fiction of Reese bad Coughlin good is silly and lacks the nuance required to have an interesting debate on that time.
What transpired next proves something else was the root cause. All of the variable in the equation were switched out and the same results occured.
and you can't help but think that the fans should proceed with more caution these days.
He was the power behind the throne from 2012 to 2021. Tisch stepped in and ended all of that. What we saw now is what a modern and normally functioning front office should look like. No matter what is said about him, Chris Mara would still prefer to be calling the shots. Unlike the Jones' in Dallas, the Maras don't have the guts to put it out there publicly. Thank God for the Tisches stepping in and ending that charade.
I have no clue how say Mara has on personnel matters. None of us do. Maybe Joe & Dabs are really running the show or maybe Mara is secretly pulling the strings. I'd bet coin on the former, but who knows? What I do know is that everything Mara did for a decade was a complete debacle until last season. Every choice seemingly was the wrong one.
Mara seems like a good guy & obviously loves the Giants so I'm sure the last decade prior to last fall killed him like it did us. But his old man was a football idiot too until he Rozelle stepped in & gave us GY because Wellington & Tim were at each other's throats.
I have no clue how say Mara has on personnel matters. None of us do. Maybe Joe & Dabs are really running the show or maybe Mara is secretly pulling the strings. I'd bet coin on the former, but who knows? What I do know is that everything Mara did for a decade was a complete debacle until last season. Every choice seemingly was the wrong one.
Mara seems like a good guy & obviously loves the Giants so I'm sure the last decade prior to last fall killed him like it did us. But his old man was a football idiot too until he Rozelle stepped in & gave us GY because Wellington & Tim were at each other's throats.
Eh. A lot of owners suck. The franchise has 4 Super Bowl titles and has been to another.
Look at Dolan. That guy never faces the media. Doesn’t allow Leon Rose to face questions from the media, everything is in house with MSG yet you have fans defend it.
For all of Mara’s faults, he has stood up and faced the music to his credit. Hopefully he finally has hired the right people.
Tom Coughlin was a mediocre-at-best regular season coach between 2009-2012. You can talk about some of the defensive talent shortfalls/scheming in 2009 but that 2010 team was a mess...turnover prone, undisciplined, propensity to check out for a half or not even show up. They had the talent to hang with anyone but lost to Jon Kitna at home by multiple touchdowns, lost to Vince Young by almost 20 despite outgaining them by like 300 yards. I haven't even mentioned the Miracle of the Meadowlands.
Contrast this with the 2005-2008 era where they always pulled out victories in the moments when their backs were against the wall even despite injuries.
Not a bad theory, and certainly the Giants were a juggernaut for most of 2008, but I think it's overstating it to say that that 2005-7 Giants were much more consistent than the 2009-2012 versions. Just off the top of my head:
2005:
- Eli leading a game-tying drive vs Dallas, only for the defense to fold in OT
- Feely missing three FGs in key loss vs the Seahawks
- The Giants completely no-showing for their playoff game vs. Carolina
2006:
- Plenty of sloppy play and disastrous blown leads in losses to Bears, Jags and Titans (maybe Bob Whitfield can give us another false start penalty? Or how about Kiwi failing to wrap up Vince Young?)
- Getting outright embarrassed by the Saints in December (necessitating Tiki's big game a week later vs the Skins to save Coughlin's job)
- Giants tying their playoff game against the Eagles late, only to allow the winning FG drive without much resistance
2007:
- Defense getting embarrassed in first two games out of the gate
- Eli throwing three pick-sixes vs the Vikes
- Nonsensical game plan throwing 50+ passes into hurricane-like winds in loss to the Redskins
If anything, Coughlin was always consistent in his inconsistency from 2005-2012. Good showings in the first half of the season, stumbles down the stretch, some inexplicable mind-bending losses thrown in for good measure. Pretty much held true from Day 1.
Is it because they all thought they were going to land Rhule and then panicked when Tepper signed him?
Or did Mara get smitten with Judge’s bullshit and “The Patriot Way” that Gettleman just decided to tell him his boss what he wanted to hear and decided he would try and manage him? Play the “adult in the room” to the rookie coach.
Man that Giants era was bleak.
This basically confirms that Gettleman was kept but was neutered and added nothing of value to what Judge was trying to do. Not that I think Judge was destined for success here but that was the worst possible scenario.
This also means, in my opinion, that DG owns the successes and failures of 2018 and 2019 and Judge pretty much took over starting in 2020.
For better or worse Jones, Barkley, Dex, Solder, Baker all DG.
Thomas, McKinney, Toney (passing on Parsons), Golloday all Judge.
Is it because they all thought they were going to land Rhule and then panicked when Tepper signed him?
Or did Mara get smitten with Judge’s bullshit and “The Patriot Way” that Gettleman just decided to tell him his boss what he wanted to hear and decided he would try and manage him? Play the “adult in the room” to the rookie coach.
Man that Giants era was bleak.
Do you honestly think Gettleman hired Judge?
Gettleman was kept on because Mara lacked the conviction to can him, but we now know that DG was GM in name only at that point.
You get to choose between the coach who ran a QB sneak inside his own 5 or the GM who turned off his phone when he had the #2 overall pick. Different shades of incompetence.
The Judge hire was worse than the Gettleman hire. I’ll stand by that statement until the end of time.
The worst part is they both were here at the same time. The Giants organization didn’t stand a fucking chance with those 2 running things.
Joe Judge is the worst “anything” this organization has ever had. And so many of us fell for it early on (myself included).
The correct choice is nuke 'em both.
Is it because they all thought they were going to land Rhule and then panicked when Tepper signed him?
Or did Mara get smitten with Judge’s bullshit and “The Patriot Way” that Gettleman just decided to tell him his boss what he wanted to hear and decided he would try and manage him? Play the “adult in the room” to the rookie coach.
Man that Giants era was bleak.
Maras. They destroyed the team. Starting w the forced hiring of McAdoo pushing TC out but not Reese. Etc.
Quote:
I'm about to puke just typing this, but if the choice is Gettleman or Judge making a critical decision -- I'm going Dave.
The correct choice is nuke 'em both.
Well clearly. You can throw a few minor Maras in their too.
Quote:
If Gettleman lacked that much trust in Judge, my first question is why the hell did he hire him in the first place?
Is it because they all thought they were going to land Rhule and then panicked when Tepper signed him?
Or did Mara get smitten with Judge’s bullshit and “The Patriot Way” that Gettleman just decided to tell him his boss what he wanted to hear and decided he would try and manage him? Play the “adult in the room” to the rookie coach.
Man that Giants era was bleak.
Maras. They destroyed the team. Starting w the forced hiring of McAdoo pushing TC out but not Reese. Etc.
The team is destroyed?
Quote:
Gettleman was hired because EA did a solid for his old pal &sold Mara on Gettleman. Again, THE worst hire in NYG history...even worse than Ray.
The Judge hire was worse than the Gettleman hire. I’ll stand by that statement until the end of time.
The worst part is they both were here at the same time. The Giants organization didn’t stand a fucking chance with those 2 running things.
Joe Judge is the worst “anything” this organization has ever had. And so many of us fell for it early on (myself included).
I disagree (not that it really matters)
-Dave hired Judge (whether you believe he was gm in name only or not the hire falls on him)
-He egregiously overpaid on subpar free agents- Golladay, Solder, Stewart, etc
- Grossly mismanaged resources in the oline
- Drafted territory in later rounds
Judge was bad too. But I don’t believe Judge did as much harm to the franchise during his time. I wouldn’t choose either, but I would absolutely not choose Dave.
It’s not particularly close when it comes to DG vs Judge IMO.
It’s also rumored that Gettleman wanted Parsons big time.
Puke? After four years of Gettleman and two years of Judge, I was ready to find a nice, normal AFC team to support.
Nate Ebner is hardly a disinterested observer. He's not really much of an observer at all. More like the paid friend Judge whined to when the suits were mean to him about losing.
I've said it before, but it was reported that Mara was looking for any excuse to keep Abrams as GM and Judge as HC.
So when Mara starts voicing opinions about personnel matters, I get nervous.
I've said it before, but it was reported that Mara was looking for any excuse to keep Abrams as GM and Judge as HC.
So when Mara starts voicing opinions about personnel matters, I get nervous.
Tisch has a much larger say than he used to have. I’m not nervous about whatever nonsense comes out of Mara’s mouth as long as Schoen is the GM
Quote:
Gettleman was hired because EA did a solid for his old pal &sold Mara on Gettleman. Again, THE worst hire in NYG history...even worse than Ray.
The Judge hire was worse than the Gettleman hire. I’ll stand by that statement until the end of time.
The worst part is they both were here at the same time. The Giants organization didn’t stand a fucking chance with those 2 running things.
Joe Judge is the worst “anything” this organization has ever had. And so many of us fell for it early on (myself included).
Judge was worse at his job than Gettelman was at his but it wasn’t nearly as impactful. We moved on from Judge very easily. Shoen is still cleaning up the cap.
Quote:
Gettleman was hired because EA did a solid for his old pal &sold Mara on Gettleman. Again, THE worst hire in NYG history...even worse than Ray.
The Judge hire was worse than the Gettleman hire. I’ll stand by that statement until the end of time.
The worst part is they both were here at the same time. The Giants organization didn’t stand a fucking chance with those 2 running things.
Joe Judge is the worst “anything” this organization has ever had. And so many of us fell for it early on (myself included).
I sure did..
and you can't help but think that the fans should proceed with more caution these days.
and you can't help but think that the fans should proceed with more caution these days.
The Chris Mara days are over. Schoen is in total control. That much seems obvious.
What exactly are the Chris Mara days,because I'm not sure you'd get a consensus on whether or not they existed.
I've said it before, but it was reported that Mara was looking for any excuse to keep Abrams as GM and Judge as HC.
So when Mara starts voicing opinions about personnel matters, I get nervous.
Anyone with an ounce of critical thinking skills realizes this take is 100% correct. The ten year voyage of the post SB 46 titanic had reached the iceberg with the double qb sneak with Jake Fromm against Washington. During this time , the state media (Tynes, Banks/Papa, Paul Schwartz) were publishing ridiculous puff pieces about Abrams/Judge. If the reports about Steve Tisch speaking up and steering them away from keeping the status quo are true then he deserves a lot of credit for saving Mara from himself
I've said it before, but it was reported that Mara was looking for any excuse to keep Abrams as GM and Judge as HC.
So when Mara starts voicing opinions about personnel matters, I get nervous.
And the current Mara has a very close example of what can happen when a Mara owner gets too involved in personnel. *grin*
...soooo much baggage.
Quote:
Gettleman was hired because EA did a solid for his old pal &sold Mara on Gettleman. Again, THE worst hire in NYG history...even worse than Ray.
The Judge hire was worse than the Gettleman hire. I’ll stand by that statement until the end of time.
The worst part is they both were here at the same time. The Giants organization didn’t stand a fucking chance with those 2 running things.
Joe Judge is the worst “anything” this organization has ever had. And so many of us fell for it early on (myself included).
Huge disagree.
I actually think Judge has the stuff to be a successful HC. Not that I would trade Daboll for him, but Judge was dead in the water the minute he was hired with Gettleman.
Who was the QB on that 3rd and 9 inside the 5 yard line that Gettleman gave him? I believe that was Jake Fromm. And Judge (rightly) felt the best of all possible outcomes was a QB sneak with a completely non-competitive player at QB.
I've never understood the outrage directed at Judge for that decision. The outrage should've been directed at who was responsible for having a Jake Fromm on the roster. This was a complete shit show of an offense, and any scenario where Jake Fromm was throwing the ball inside the 5 yard line, the best realistic scenario was a safety. The worst-case would've been a defensive TD from the opposition, and that was probably more realistic than a safety or any other outcome.
Gettleman was the worst hire in the franchise's history. The game had passed him by at least 5 years before he was hired.
It’s not particularly close when it comes to DG vs Judge IMO.
It’s also rumored that Gettleman wanted Parsons big time.
I'm not in any one camp, but can't you say that the Giants' drafts in 2000 and 2001 were better than 2018 and 2019? AT, McKinney, Olujari are pretty key to the core, for sure.
Quote:
In comment 16120377 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Gettleman was hired because EA did a solid for his old pal &sold Mara on Gettleman. Again, THE worst hire in NYG history...even worse than Ray.
The Judge hire was worse than the Gettleman hire. I’ll stand by that statement until the end of time.
The worst part is they both were here at the same time. The Giants organization didn’t stand a fucking chance with those 2 running things.
Joe Judge is the worst “anything” this organization has ever had. And so many of us fell for it early on (myself included).
Huge disagree.
I actually think Judge has the stuff to be a successful HC. Not that I would trade Daboll for him, but Judge was dead in the water the minute he was hired with Gettleman.
Who was the QB on that 3rd and 9 inside the 5 yard line that Gettleman gave him? I believe that was Jake Fromm. And Judge (rightly) felt the best of all possible outcomes was a QB sneak with a completely non-competitive player at QB.
I've never understood the outrage directed at Judge for that decision. The outrage should've been directed at who was responsible for having a Jake Fromm on the roster. This was a complete shit show of an offense, and any scenario where Jake Fromm was throwing the ball inside the 5 yard line, the best realistic scenario was a safety. The worst-case would've been a defensive TD from the opposition, and that was probably more realistic than a safety or any other outcome.
Gettleman was the worst hire in the franchise's history. The game had passed him by at least 5 years before he was hired.
Judge proved himself to be nowhere near head coach material when he started saying bat shit crazy stuff in late season press conferences in a desperate attempt to save his job.
That ain't leadership.
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In comment 16120370 Ben in Tampa said:
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If Gettleman lacked that much trust in Judge, my first question is why the hell did he hire him in the first place?
Is it because they all thought they were going to land Rhule and then panicked when Tepper signed him?
Or did Mara get smitten with Judge’s bullshit and “The Patriot Way” that Gettleman just decided to tell him his boss what he wanted to hear and decided he would try and manage him? Play the “adult in the room” to the rookie coach.
Man that Giants era was bleak.
Maras. They destroyed the team. Starting w the forced hiring of McAdoo pushing TC out but not Reese. Etc.
The team is destroyed?
Sorry. Utter dysfunctional and shitty? I guess you liked the last years of Eli's career and the subsequent awesome football over that time period this pertains to. Want to quibble over a descriptor? Sure. I'm wrong. It was an amazing time and the Mara's awesome choices during the time period max e the team a joy to behold
That 2021 draft seemed like such a power struggle between DG and Judge and it cost then both.
Makes me wonder if DG had any say in the Shurmur and Judge hirings.
Joe Judge is the worst “anything” this organization has ever had. And so many of us fell for it early on (myself included).
This +1000
And yet, Jones (and others) had to deal with this piece of shit - and Garret - for TWO FUCKING YEARS.
But some on this site blamed Jones for somehow not defying the odds and managing to "advance" during this time.
Just show how fucking stupid the anti jones people were. And some are still are...
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Gettleman was hired because EA did a solid for his old pal &sold Mara on Gettleman. Again, THE worst hire in NYG history...even worse than Ray.
The Judge hire was worse than the Gettleman hire. I’ll stand by that statement until the end of time.
The worst part is they both were here at the same time. The Giants organization didn’t stand a fucking chance with those 2 running things.
Joe Judge is the worst “anything” this organization has ever had. And so many of us fell for it early on (myself included).
I'll pat myself on the back for never falling for Judge, but I never thought he'd end up being one of the worst coaches this team ever had. I mean, who could see that coming? But, I was still very much wait and see after the first year. Well unfortunately, we all got to see it eventually.
Keep this in mind:
Ownership decided Tom Coughlin was the problem and kept everyone else.
Ownership promoted Ben McAdoo to HC. (Remember the team rushed this when they were tricked by the Eagles into thinking Philly wanted to hire him).
Ownership decided to hire Dave Gettleman, without any serious GM search.
Ownership and Gettleman hired Pat Shurmur.
Ownership and Gettleman hired Joe Judge. Their original target was Rhule and he wouldn't even meet with them, and was also a disaster in Carolina. The Giants then turned to Judge, a little-known special teams coach from New England.
Ownership wanted to promote Abramas to GM and keep Judge, but the unbelievable meltdown by Judge at the end of the season made those options virtually untenable.
By some miracle, ownership landed on Schoen, who lobbied hard for Daboll.
By some miracle, ownership landed on Schoen, who lobbied hard for Daboll.
Whatever Mara initially “wanted” to do, he didn’t do, I can’t blame him for something that didn’t happen. Judge was fired and from all accounts Schoen has been given full authority to reshape the front office. Maybe Cowden is hired in the next few weeks as well.
Keep this in mind:
Ownership decided Tom Coughlin was the problem and kept everyone else.
Ownership promoted Ben McAdoo to HC. (Remember the team rushed this when they were tricked by the Eagles into thinking Philly wanted to hire him).
2015 was the watershed moment I believe.
After 3 losing seasons, with a poorly constructed roster, an undisciplined and underperforming team, and a QB who wasn't done but certainly on the back 9 -- the Giants should have had a hard reset and brought in brand new people with no emotional ties to the glory years.
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Ownership wanted to promote Abramas to GM and keep Judge, but the unbelievable meltdown by Judge at the end of the season made those options virtually untenable.
By some miracle, ownership landed on Schoen, who lobbied hard for Daboll.
Whatever Mara initially “wanted” to do, he didn’t do, I can’t blame him for something that didn’t happen. Judge was fired and from all accounts Schoen has been given full authority to reshape the front office. Maybe Cowden is hired in the next few weeks as well.
Look at my last post. The batting average is horrific. My sense is Schoen and Daboll are calling the shots, but there are years of horrific decision-making...just horrific.
Let's cut to the chase... we now know that the coaching staff and front office were not even on the same page. We got that sense for a number of years. This happened under ownership. They knew about it. And they let it fester.
2015 was the watershed moment I believe.
After 3 losing seasons, with a poorly constructed roster, an undisciplined and underperforming team, and a QB who wasn't done but certainly on the back 9 -- the Giants should have had a hard reset and brought in brand new people with no emotional ties to the glory years.
You are close to touching on another key point in history...
It was apparent that Eli was DONE and McAdoo wanted to move on. The extreme fan backlash when we benched Eli scared the shit out of John Mara. He even said "we did not expect the fans to get so emotional".
I truly think we would have found our next QB that off season but ended up keeping Eli because Mara though that is what the fans wanted.
Now, we cannot assume the Giants would have taken Josh Allen. For all we know we would have Darnold or Rosen especially when you look at all of the poor decisions that DG made.
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from the equally damning issues of bad/wasted draft picks includind such gems in the 1st round as DeAndre Baker and Kadarius Toney. Aside from bad free agent investments (Nate Solder and Kenny Golladay to name just a couple). Despite serious salary cap issues and nothing to show for it...
Keep this in mind:
Ownership decided Tom Coughlin was the problem and kept everyone else.
Ownership promoted Ben McAdoo to HC. (Remember the team rushed this when they were tricked by the Eagles into thinking Philly wanted to hire him).
2015 was the watershed moment I believe.
After 3 losing seasons, with a poorly constructed roster, an undisciplined and underperforming team, and a QB who wasn't done but certainly on the back 9 -- the Giants should have had a hard reset and brought in brand new people with no emotional ties to the glory years.
There were a few watershed moments. They seemed to never get the GM and HC on the same page. "We'll fire Coughlin and hope Reese gets better." "We'll fire Reese and hope the guy who lost out to him the first go around is the answer despite his advanced age." "We'll get rid of Shurmur but keep Gettleman". And let's not even get into the general feeling that this team was close with Eli Manning and only needed to be tweaked, including taking a RB with the #2 overall pick.
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The Chris Mara days are over. Schoen is in total control. That much seems obvious.
What exactly are the Chris Mara days,because I'm not sure you'd get a consensus on whether or not they existed.
There were many rumors that he had his own draft personnel evaluations and made them known. Couldn’t have been good for the process. It was at the very least a terrible organizational structure with the top personnel guys reporting to both him and the GM.
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The Chris Mara days are over. Schoen is in total control. That much seems obvious.
What exactly are the Chris Mara days,because I'm not sure you'd get a consensus on whether or not they existed.
The guy was sitting in the front row in every draft room. To suggest that he DIDN'T have any impact or influence over who was drafted (not saying all draft picks) is foolish. There are dozens of other family members who did not get to sit in that room.
- DG
In this general period of time the equipment guys were ripping off fans, the video guy was either a pathological liar or got beat up at work, they employed a bunch of scouting folks that have trash reputations, and Gettleman well enough said.
I couldn't be more glad Schoen is here and cleaning house. The organization was broken from the inside out.
And after camp too.
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In comment 16120487 Eric from BBI said:
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from the equally damning issues of bad/wasted draft picks includind such gems in the 1st round as DeAndre Baker and Kadarius Toney. Aside from bad free agent investments (Nate Solder and Kenny Golladay to name just a couple). Despite serious salary cap issues and nothing to show for it...
Keep this in mind:
Ownership decided Tom Coughlin was the problem and kept everyone else.
Ownership promoted Ben McAdoo to HC. (Remember the team rushed this when they were tricked by the Eagles into thinking Philly wanted to hire him).
2015 was the watershed moment I believe.
After 3 losing seasons, with a poorly constructed roster, an undisciplined and underperforming team, and a QB who wasn't done but certainly on the back 9 -- the Giants should have had a hard reset and brought in brand new people with no emotional ties to the glory years.
There were a few watershed moments. They seemed to never get the GM and HC on the same page. "We'll fire Coughlin and hope Reese gets better." "We'll fire Reese and hope the guy who lost out to him the first go around is the answer despite his advanced age." "We'll get rid of Shurmur but keep Gettleman". And let's not even get into the general feeling that this team was close with Eli Manning and only needed to be tweaked, including taking a RB with the #2 overall pick.
It could've been worse. It took Moses 40 years to get out of the desert. 10 or 12 years doesn't seem so bad.
DG sucked
Judge sucked
Maras sucked
Tisch may have saved the team. As part owner he may have put his foot down on Maras.
Better to cut a year early than a year late, unless you're NFL royalty, I guess.
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Not completely uncommon for teams moving off a franchise legend. Decisions were made to return to the Eli glory years, not necessarily what was best for the franchise.
Better to cut a year early than a year late, unless you're NFL royalty, I guess.
There were a decent amount of BBIers that believed Manning deserved to play as long as he wanted because of his former success.
Unsurprisingly the reward for that was a bunch of losing and Manning get his ass pummeled.
I've never understood the outrage directed at Judge for that decision. The outrage should've been directed at who was responsible for having a Jake Fromm on the roster. This was a complete shit show of an offense, and any scenario where Jake Fromm was throwing the ball inside the 5 yard line, the best realistic scenario was a safety. The worst-case would've been a defensive TD from the opposition, and that was probably more realistic than a safety or any other outcome.
Gettleman was the worst hire in the franchise's history. The game had passed him by at least 5 years before he was hired.
Except we have a control to test this hypothesis, by the name of Glennon. Glennon had a long track record as an acceptable NFL backup. He was tossing multiple TDs in certain games for a horrendous Jaguars team just months before arriving at MetLife. And when he played for Judge, it looked like he had never played football before.
I think that’s solid evidence that Judge was utterly incompetent. Same goes for Freddie Kitchens, who is currently TE coach for the N Carolina Tar Heels.
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I've never understood the outrage directed at Judge for that decision. The outrage should've been directed at who was responsible for having a Jake Fromm on the roster. This was a complete shit show of an offense, and any scenario where Jake Fromm was throwing the ball inside the 5 yard line, the best realistic scenario was a safety. The worst-case would've been a defensive TD from the opposition, and that was probably more realistic than a safety or any other outcome.
Gettleman was the worst hire in the franchise's history. The game had passed him by at least 5 years before he was hired.
Except we have a control to test this hypothesis, by the name of Glennon. Glennon had a long track record as an acceptable NFL backup. He was tossing multiple TDs in certain games for a horrendous Jaguars team just months before arriving at MetLife. And when he played for Judge, it looked like he had never played football before.
I think that’s solid evidence that Judge was utterly incompetent. Same goes for Freddie Kitchens, who is currently TE coach for the N Carolina Tar Heels.
Took the words out of my mouth cosmicj. Judge has yet to show anything that suggests he'll a good HC. His second go-round with the Pats has been really bad, to the point that they've shifted him to a coaching position that sounds like he'll have LESS regular interaction with the players.
And I don't care if you have Daffy Duck at QB, nothing can justify those QB sneaks. So you basically give up because you're afraid of surrendering a defensive score when your team is 4-12, going nowhere, playing a game that only counts for pride? What happened to "Every play will have a life and history of its own" when you're scared of what might happen due to a play against a different opponent the week before? You lack the confidence to even run a RB dive into the line on 3rd down, which would probably get you a similar result but at least gives you a chance to maybe break a play? After you've puffed your chest out in pressers and proclaimed your team will have a "punch you in the mouth for 60 minutes" mentality?
All those sneaks proved was that Judge preferred to lose respectably (and even at that, he failed miserably) than attempt to instill an attitude that the team would actually compete, regardless of who's on the field. As I've said before, I'm glad that play happened, because if it didn't, we might very well be looking at a different (and worse) GM and coach at this very moment. But I can't agree that the play was the right thing to do, and based on all the ridicule Judge received from Giants fans and outside observers, I don't think I'm alone in that opinion.
Plus, how can we tell the story of this period of the Giants without discuss the Clown picture. This is what led to real positive change.
Yep...
They both ruined this team in the 90s...
George Young had lost his way and Dan Reeves tried to turn the Giants into the Broncos.
The myriad of bad decisions back then rivals what we witnessed here recently.
He may know special teams - but the Giants special teams under him were not great - he may be another in a long line of little Bill coaches that is a one-trick pony
It’s not particularly close when it comes to DG vs Judge IMO.
It’s also rumored that Gettleman wanted Parsons big time.
It says even more that you think Shurmur was worse than Judge.
Mara is not a bad person or a bad owner in the Snyder mode. It would just be difficult finding one who made as many bad decisions in a row.
It’s not particularly close when it comes to DG vs Judge IMO.
It’s also rumored that Gettleman wanted Parsons big time.
I dont think Gettleman will ever be remembered fondly, but I do agree that if you were to ask me to choose who I would rather have make a football decision Gettleman or Judge, it would not be even close. It would be Gettleman every day of the week.
One year ago most on this board were predicting 3-6 wins. With all the injuries prior to the season, and those occurring early on (Shepard, Aaron Robinson) most figured no way they make the playoffs.
Except they had a good head coach, who hired good coordinators.
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In comment 16120495 christian said:
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In comment 16120487 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
from the equally damning issues of bad/wasted draft picks includind such gems in the 1st round as DeAndre Baker and Kadarius Toney. Aside from bad free agent investments (Nate Solder and Kenny Golladay to name just a couple). Despite serious salary cap issues and nothing to show for it...
Keep this in mind:
Ownership decided Tom Coughlin was the problem and kept everyone else.
Ownership promoted Ben McAdoo to HC. (Remember the team rushed this when they were tricked by the Eagles into thinking Philly wanted to hire him).
2015 was the watershed moment I believe.
After 3 losing seasons, with a poorly constructed roster, an undisciplined and underperforming team, and a QB who wasn't done but certainly on the back 9 -- the Giants should have had a hard reset and brought in brand new people with no emotional ties to the glory years.
There were a few watershed moments. They seemed to never get the GM and HC on the same page. "We'll fire Coughlin and hope Reese gets better." "We'll fire Reese and hope the guy who lost out to him the first go around is the answer despite his advanced age." "We'll get rid of Shurmur but keep Gettleman". And let's not even get into the general feeling that this team was close with Eli Manning and only needed to be tweaked, including taking a RB with the #2 overall pick.
It could've been worse. It took Moses 40 years to get out of the desert. 10 or 12 years doesn't seem so bad.
I would say the last 10 years of Giants football has been biblical in it's disaster.
One year ago most on this board were predicting 3-6 wins. With all the injuries prior to the season, and those occurring early on (Shepard, Aaron Robinson) most figured no way they make the playoffs.
Except they had a good head coach, who hired good coordinators.
Kevin gilbride was the problem. He was replaced. Problems got worse, not better.
Tom Coughlin was the problem. He was replaced. Problems got worse, not better. Eli Manning was the problem, he was replaced. Problems got worse, not better. Daniel Jones was the problem and we finally got a front office in place that understood that the roster was the problem.
Tom Coughlin didn't suddenly forget how to coach. Reese and Ross left it Bare of talent with their horrible drafts. The team was gutted of any talent. Vince Lombardi if reincarnated couldn't get more out of the roster.
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the main problem at the time he was let go. Coaching is the biggest thing in the NFL, along with QB play, and Eli was declining at the time.
One year ago most on this board were predicting 3-6 wins. With all the injuries prior to the season, and those occurring early on (Shepard, Aaron Robinson) most figured no way they make the playoffs.
Except they had a good head coach, who hired good coordinators.
Kevin gilbride was the problem. He was replaced. Problems got worse, not better.
Tom Coughlin was the problem. He was replaced. Problems got worse, not better. Eli Manning was the problem, he was replaced. Problems got worse, not better. Daniel Jones was the problem and we finally got a front office in place that understood that the roster was the problem.
Tom Coughlin didn't suddenly forget how to coach. Reese and Ross left it Bare of talent with their horrible drafts. The team was gutted of any talent. Vince Lombardi if reincarnated couldn't get more out of the roster.
As with most things, there is no one singular reason.
Tom Coughlin was not the problem, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't losing a little zip on his fastball. By the end of his time coaching, TC was letting players get away with things that he would never have tolerated earlier in his tenure (OBJ vs. Josh Norman is the prime example) - was that out of desperation to win and not having enough talent in general to risk having his best player tune out, or was it because TC's fire was just not burning quite as hot by the end? Certainly there wasn't the leaguewide demand for his coaching skills after his time at NYG that many fans here claimed there would be.
Did TC deserve a better exit than he received? Absolutely. Should JR have been shown the door along with TC? Absolutely. Does that mean that TC bears no responsibility for the downturn at the end of his time here? No way, IMO.
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Gettleman was hired because EA did a solid for his old pal &sold Mara on Gettleman. Again, THE worst hire in NYG history...even worse than Ray.
The Judge hire was worse than the Gettleman hire. I’ll stand by that statement until the end of time.
The worst part is they both were here at the same time. The Giants organization didn’t stand a fucking chance with those 2 running things.
Joe Judge is the worst “anything” this organization has ever had. And so many of us fell for it early on (myself included).
Nailed it!
However, I never bought in on Judge. I hated the Judge hire from day one. There was no question in my mind that he was full of shit. Full disclosure...I was rooting hard for Matt Rhule. I guess that wouldn't have ended well either.
Ruined the backend of Eli's career and TC had little to work with overall. After round 2 is more on your front office imv. Plenty of round 1/2 busts.
Judge had significant input overall. He just fell apart as the season spiraled out of control. He started with little on the roster outside a few players.
2018-21 drafts need a couple more years to see what the real impact is. Free agency was terrible overall and Galloday was the worst signing I can recall.
Judge didn't lose any games I thought we'd win. The implosion occurred when the team was cooked anyway. But people were hyped over him for the dumbest reasons. Those threads about practicing with wet footballs were hilarious. Judge was boomer catnip. People gave him a pass for Garrett's offense, which was always bizarre to me.
Judge was on pace to win 6 wins in 2021 before Jones went down. They won 9 with Daboll the following year. How much of that is great coaching with Daboll vs. bad coaching with Judge? Personally, I think the win differential was great coaching - I don't think Judge punched significantly below the team's talent, which is why I think DG sucks more.
It could've been worse. It took Moses 40 years to get out of the desert. 10 or 12 years doesn't seem so bad.
I would say the last 10 years of Giants football has been biblical in it's disaster.
Listen, John - and I'm just spitballing here - but maybe we should look outside of the organization for a new GM. Whaddaya say?
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In comment 16120940 RollBlue said:
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the main problem at the time he was let go. Coaching is the biggest thing in the NFL, along with QB play, and Eli was declining at the time.
One year ago most on this board were predicting 3-6 wins. With all the injuries prior to the season, and those occurring early on (Shepard, Aaron Robinson) most figured no way they make the playoffs.
Except they had a good head coach, who hired good coordinators.
Kevin gilbride was the problem. He was replaced. Problems got worse, not better.
Tom Coughlin was the problem. He was replaced. Problems got worse, not better. Eli Manning was the problem, he was replaced. Problems got worse, not better. Daniel Jones was the problem and we finally got a front office in place that understood that the roster was the problem.
Tom Coughlin didn't suddenly forget how to coach. Reese and Ross left it Bare of talent with their horrible drafts. The team was gutted of any talent. Vince Lombardi if reincarnated couldn't get more out of the roster.
As with most things, there is no one singular reason.
Tom Coughlin was not the problem, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't losing a little zip on his fastball. By the end of his time coaching, TC was letting players get away with things that he would never have tolerated earlier in his tenure (OBJ vs. Josh Norman is the prime example) - was that out of desperation to win and not having enough talent in general to risk having his best player tune out, or was it because TC's fire was just not burning quite as hot by the end? Certainly there wasn't the leaguewide demand for his coaching skills after his time at NYG that many fans here claimed there would be.
Did TC deserve a better exit than he received? Absolutely. Should JR have been shown the door along with TC? Absolutely. Does that mean that TC bears no responsibility for the downturn at the end of his time here? No way, IMO.
Everyone takes some culpability. By the end of Tom Coughlins tenure, he was completely neutered. Coaching decisions were essentially forced on him (mcadoo for gilbride) and he had less say in roster decisions like the "basketball on grass" and the jpp of tight ends that we all heard.
Everyone bears responsibility when the team fails, but to me the biggest failure was Reese bringing in Ross. The half measures killed the team and it took years, but they finally understood that patchwork measures and half assed measures don't work. Tom Coughlin was fighting for his job, which is exactly why the obj incident happened as it did. I believe that whole heartedly. If Tom Coughlin was in control, he would never tolerate that.
I don't care how they got here, but I'm glad that they did.
Jones had a great year for a Rookie under Shurmur, basically did nothing under Judge.
Barkley was having a bad year before he got injured while playing for Judge
Thomas was terrible and now an All-Pro
Engram (Not with the Giants) became a pro bowler in Jacksonville
It is amazing how bad the Judge era was, I believe as bad as DG was as GM he was forced to hire Judge because Belichek gave the Maras a thumbs up.
It doesnt matter now, we seem to have the right pieces in place to get on a consistent winning organization.
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In comment 16121026 TrueBlue56 said:
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In comment 16120940 RollBlue said:
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the main problem at the time he was let go. Coaching is the biggest thing in the NFL, along with QB play, and Eli was declining at the time.
One year ago most on this board were predicting 3-6 wins. With all the injuries prior to the season, and those occurring early on (Shepard, Aaron Robinson) most figured no way they make the playoffs.
Except they had a good head coach, who hired good coordinators.
Kevin gilbride was the problem. He was replaced. Problems got worse, not better.
Tom Coughlin was the problem. He was replaced. Problems got worse, not better. Eli Manning was the problem, he was replaced. Problems got worse, not better. Daniel Jones was the problem and we finally got a front office in place that understood that the roster was the problem.
Tom Coughlin didn't suddenly forget how to coach. Reese and Ross left it Bare of talent with their horrible drafts. The team was gutted of any talent. Vince Lombardi if reincarnated couldn't get more out of the roster.
As with most things, there is no one singular reason.
Tom Coughlin was not the problem, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't losing a little zip on his fastball. By the end of his time coaching, TC was letting players get away with things that he would never have tolerated earlier in his tenure (OBJ vs. Josh Norman is the prime example) - was that out of desperation to win and not having enough talent in general to risk having his best player tune out, or was it because TC's fire was just not burning quite as hot by the end? Certainly there wasn't the leaguewide demand for his coaching skills after his time at NYG that many fans here claimed there would be.
Did TC deserve a better exit than he received? Absolutely. Should JR have been shown the door along with TC? Absolutely. Does that mean that TC bears no responsibility for the downturn at the end of his time here? No way, IMO.
Everyone takes some culpability. By the end of Tom Coughlins tenure, he was completely neutered. Coaching decisions were essentially forced on him (mcadoo for gilbride) and he had less say in roster decisions like the "basketball on grass" and the jpp of tight ends that we all heard.
Everyone bears responsibility when the team fails, but to me the biggest failure was Reese bringing in Ross. The half measures killed the team and it took years, but they finally understood that patchwork measures and half assed measures don't work. Tom Coughlin was fighting for his job, which is exactly why the obj incident happened as it did. I believe that whole heartedly. If Tom Coughlin was in control, he would never tolerate that.
I don't care how they got here, but I'm glad that they did.
Bull-fucking-shit.
Go run along now and play with the other fanfic authors.
Ruined the backend of Eli's career and TC had little to work with overall. After round 2 is more on your front office imv. Plenty of round 1/2 busts.
Judge had significant input overall. He just fell apart as the season spiraled out of control. He started with little on the roster outside a few players.
2018-21 drafts need a couple more years to see what the real impact is. Free agency was terrible overall and Galloday was the worst signing I can recall.
This is cute.
Can't wait for you to forget which of these two handles you're signed in with.
Not many (including some of you in your line of work) would have been able to do that.
1) Marc Ross was hired in 2007 to backfill Reese as director of college scouting, and contributed to a number of solid drafts before things fell apart
2) Are we to believe the famously control freak Tom Coughlin was relegated to passenger after he won his 2nd championship?
3) Are we to believe Tom Coughlin, one of the better WR coaches of that era was against investing heavily in that position?
4) Are we to believe Tom Coughlin was not an advocate of drafting Justin Pugh from his alma mater, nor an advocate for drafting Ereck Flowers, a player he praised and then signed to the Jags?
1) Marc Ross was hired in 2007 to backfill Reese as director of college scouting, and contributed to a number of solid drafts before things fell apart
2) Are we to believe the famously control freak Tom Coughlin was relegated to passenger after he won his 2nd championship?
3) Are we to believe Tom Coughlin, one of the better WR coaches of that era was against investing heavily in that position?
4) Are we to believe Tom Coughlin was not an advocate of drafting Justin Pugh from his alma mater, nor an advocate for drafting Ereck Flowers, a player he praised and then signed to the Jags?
+1.
It was always organizational success which then became an organizational failure. This idea that we are going to piecemeal who gets the credit and blame among people is ridiculous.
In hindsight, everyone should have been fired after 2015, but retaining Reese was not outrageous. He was a young GM with a solid track record at that point who inherited both the HC and QB. The error was more giving him a win or else mandate in 2016. It would have been healthier for the franchise to extend him. Mara got himself in trouble with all the win or else mandates he gave out.
Don't make another accusation like the one you just did. Big enough to apologize?
I also don't think a 69 year old HC is going to be in high demand for a HC'ing job. Now if TC was 59 he would have coached again imv. Maybe after a year.
Like him or not - Gettleman got the players that the coaches wanted at least as far as free agency is concerned. I find that to not be debatable.
- He allowed Bechter to bring over a lot of Cardinals on defense.
- He didn't bring in much for Shurmur and I think that was a funciton of how milquetoast a head coach he was.
- He brought in a lot of Garrett's former players and a lot of players that Judge wanted.
Gettleman and Judge have proven to be awful but I have problems with the narrative.
1) Coughlin/Reese/Ross/Gilbride were a high performing and high arrogance group
2) A comical number of good players, who were core to the championships had their careers cut short
3) The decision makers made a collective concerted effort to invest in the skill and it worked out to the tune of a championship in 2011
4) The decision makers felt like they had done enough to retool the offensive line in 2012, and it actually worked at well
5) More comical injuries occured
6) Coughlin/Reese/Ross/Gilbride turned into a low performing and high arrogance group
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Don't make another accusation like the one you just did.
Not at all. Just comfortable enough calling out your foolishness and in this case a lie. I just think you are Gdumber and weak so I was not expecting a apology but thanks for confirming....again.
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In comment 16121164 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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Don't make another accusation like the one you just did.
Not at all. Just comfortable enough calling out your foolishness and in this case a lie. I just think you are Gdumber and weak so I was not expecting a apology but thanks for confirming....again.
Hey, we finally agree on something! You were never getting an apology from me and you likely never will.
But there was no lie. Both of those handles are yours.
One year ago most on this board were predicting 3-6 wins. With all the injuries prior to the season, and those occurring early on (Shepard, Aaron Robinson) most figured no way they make the playoffs.
Except they had a good head coach, who hired good coordinators.
Eli was declining in 2015? Where he threw for 4,400 yards and had a 35/14 TD/INT ratio? Where the offense put up 49 points against the Saints but lost because the defense had no talent and gave up 52? That team had a lead with under two minutes only to lose due to a hapless defense FIVE times.
Coughlin wasn't blameless in 2015, but Eli had a very good year and went to the Pro Bowl that year. It wasn't until 2016 that folks started thinking that he was on the decline, and that just happened to coincide with McAdoo taking over and putting in an atrocious offense.
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In comment 16121165 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16121164 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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Don't make another accusation like the one you just did.
Not at all. Just comfortable enough calling out your foolishness and in this case a lie. I just think you are Gdumber and weak so I was not expecting a apology but thanks for confirming....again.
Hey, we finally agree on something! You were never getting an apology from me and you likely never will.
But there was no lie. Both of those handles are yours.
Last chance. Either correct your mistake and apologize or I will report this and they can handle as they see fit. I will not have my integrity questioned.
Hey, we finally agree on something! You were never getting an apology from me and you likely never will.
But there was no lie. Both of those handles are yours.
Last chance. Either correct your mistake and apologize or I will report this and they can handle as they see fit. I will not have my integrity questioned.
Listen, I'm just speaking in terms of probability - the likelihood of two separate and distinct individuals sharing almost identical writing styles that contain almost identical (and largely fictional) retellings of alternative history is greater than zero, but not by much. We can leave it at that.
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In comment 16121238 Gatorade Dunk said:
Hey, we finally agree on something! You were never getting an apology from me and you likely never will.
But there was no lie. Both of those handles are yours.
Last chance. Either correct your mistake and apologize or I will report this and they can handle as they see fit. I will not have my integrity questioned.
Listen, I'm just speaking in terms of probability - the likelihood of two separate and distinct individuals sharing almost identical writing styles that contain almost identical (and largely fictional) retellings of alternative history is greater than zero, but not by much. We can leave it at that.
Like always more garbage from you I am not interested in.
TB56 is just another of hundreds of posters who have shared similar thoughts to how bad Reese/Ross were over time.
Listen, the only actual truth is you don't like or agree with it and reside in a much smaller percentage who sees it differently. When it doesn't go your way you lose control and people like you don't like that. It's your character.
Regardless, this former Marine Officer told you what would happen if you did not apologize and the moderator can take action or not. You crossed a line.
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In comment 16121276 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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In comment 16121238 Gatorade Dunk said:
Hey, we finally agree on something! You were never getting an apology from me and you likely never will.
But there was no lie. Both of those handles are yours.
Last chance. Either correct your mistake and apologize or I will report this and they can handle as they see fit. I will not have my integrity questioned.
Listen, I'm just speaking in terms of probability - the likelihood of two separate and distinct individuals sharing almost identical writing styles that contain almost identical (and largely fictional) retellings of alternative history is greater than zero, but not by much. We can leave it at that.
Like always more garbage from you I am not interested in.
TB56 is just another of hundreds of posters who have shared similar thoughts to how bad Reese/Ross were over time.
Listen, the only actual truth is you don't like or agree with it and reside in a much smaller percentage who sees it differently. When it doesn't go your way you lose control and people like you don't like that. It's your character.
Regardless, this former Marine Officer told you what would happen if you did not apologize and the moderator can take action or not. You crossed a line.
You weren't even smart enough to delete your own ToS violation from the subject line. Bravo.
It was always organizational success which then became an organizational failure. This idea that we are going to piecemeal who gets the credit and blame among people is ridiculous.
In hindsight, everyone should have been fired after 2015, but retaining Reese was not outrageous. He was a young GM with a solid track record at that point who inherited both the HC and QB. The error was more giving him a win or else mandate in 2016. It would have been healthier for the franchise to extend him. Mara got himself in trouble with all the win or else mandates he gave out.
Yup business ops 101. Mara seemingly didn't want to look too deeply into why the organization was failing.
DG sucked
Judge sucked
Maras sucked
Tisch may have saved the team. As part owner he may have put his foot down on Maras.
So sick of this false narrative. There's not one SHRED of evidence that the Maras interfere with anything.
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The Maras are in running the team. If Barkley gets a long term deal for big bucks then the Maras are still calling the shots.
DG sucked
Judge sucked
Maras sucked
Tisch may have saved the team. As part owner he may have put his foot down on Maras.
So sick of this false narrative. There's not one SHRED of evidence that the Maras interfere with anything.
Not a hill I'm trying to die on...but nepotism hires and promotions are at least a shred.
The 2009 team had some structural issues but let's not forget they got blown the f%ck out by a terrible Panthers team at home in the last Giant stadium game with the playoffs on the line.
The 2012 team again had the talent to blow out both NFC champion teams but basically checked out of several games in the 2nd half of the season and lost to the 4-12 Eagles.
That whole era is saved by a God-tier Eli performance in 2011 and a Victor Cruz 99-yard touchdown to galvanize a team that was on the verge of falling apart again (see loss to Wash at home the week prior).
Contrast this with the 2005-2008 era where they always pulled out victories in the moments when their backs were against the wall even despite injuries.
Should Reese have been fired along with Coughlin? Yes. However both should have been fired after 2013 along with the rest of the coaching staff along as well as a lot of the front office to try and do a 2013 equivalent of the Schoen/Daboll rebuild to maximize Eli's last few remaining years.
What transpired next proves something else was the root cause. All of the variable in the equation were switched out and the same results occured.
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stuff like this which has influenced my views of ownership. Those who get pissed off at me about being wary of Mara? This is yet another example.
I've said it before, but it was reported that Mara was looking for any excuse to keep Abrams as GM and Judge as HC.
So when Mara starts voicing opinions about personnel matters, I get nervous.
Tisch has a much larger say than he used to have. I’m not nervous about whatever nonsense comes out of Mara’s mouth as long as Schoen is the GM
Notice that Tisch is in the draft war room now as opposed to almost all of the past. He was there this year and last year. That's not a coincidence.
and you can't help but think that the fans should proceed with more caution these days.
He was the power behind the throne from 2012 to 2021. Tisch stepped in and ended all of that. What we saw now is what a modern and normally functioning front office should look like. No matter what is said about him, Chris Mara would still prefer to be calling the shots. Unlike the Jones' in Dallas, the Maras don't have the guts to put it out there publicly. Thank God for the Tisches stepping in and ending that charade.
Mara seems like a good guy & obviously loves the Giants so I'm sure the last decade prior to last fall killed him like it did us. But his old man was a football idiot too until he Rozelle stepped in & gave us GY because Wellington & Tim were at each other's throats.
Mara seems like a good guy & obviously loves the Giants so I'm sure the last decade prior to last fall killed him like it did us. But his old man was a football idiot too until he Rozelle stepped in & gave us GY because Wellington & Tim were at each other's throats.
Eh. A lot of owners suck. The franchise has 4 Super Bowl titles and has been to another.
Look at Dolan. That guy never faces the media. Doesn’t allow Leon Rose to face questions from the media, everything is in house with MSG yet you have fans defend it.
For all of Mara’s faults, he has stood up and faced the music to his credit. Hopefully he finally has hired the right people.
Contrast this with the 2005-2008 era where they always pulled out victories in the moments when their backs were against the wall even despite injuries.
Not a bad theory, and certainly the Giants were a juggernaut for most of 2008, but I think it's overstating it to say that that 2005-7 Giants were much more consistent than the 2009-2012 versions. Just off the top of my head:
2005:
- Eli leading a game-tying drive vs Dallas, only for the defense to fold in OT
- Feely missing three FGs in key loss vs the Seahawks
- The Giants completely no-showing for their playoff game vs. Carolina
2006:
- Plenty of sloppy play and disastrous blown leads in losses to Bears, Jags and Titans (maybe Bob Whitfield can give us another false start penalty? Or how about Kiwi failing to wrap up Vince Young?)
- Getting outright embarrassed by the Saints in December (necessitating Tiki's big game a week later vs the Skins to save Coughlin's job)
- Giants tying their playoff game against the Eagles late, only to allow the winning FG drive without much resistance
2007:
- Defense getting embarrassed in first two games out of the gate
- Eli throwing three pick-sixes vs the Vikes
- Nonsensical game plan throwing 50+ passes into hurricane-like winds in loss to the Redskins
If anything, Coughlin was always consistent in his inconsistency from 2005-2012. Good showings in the first half of the season, stumbles down the stretch, some inexplicable mind-bending losses thrown in for good measure. Pretty much held true from Day 1.