Tom Coughlin was a mediocre-at-best regular season coach between 2009-2012. You can talk about some of the defensive talent shortfalls/scheming in 2009 but that 2010 team was a mess...turnover prone, undisciplined, propensity to check out for a half or not even show up. They had the talent to hang with anyone but lost to Jon Kitna at home by multiple touchdowns, lost to Vince Young by almost 20 despite outgaining them by like 300 yards. I haven't even mentioned the Miracle of the Meadowlands.
The 2009 team had some structural issues but let's not forget they got blown the f%ck out by a terrible Panthers team at home in the last Giant stadium game with the playoffs on the line.
The 2012 team again had the talent to blow out both NFC champion teams but basically checked out of several games in the 2nd half of the season and lost to the 4-12 Eagles.
That whole era is saved by a God-tier Eli performance in 2011 and a Victor Cruz 99-yard touchdown to galvanize a team that was on the verge of falling apart again (see loss to Wash at home the week prior).
Contrast this with the 2005-2008 era where they always pulled out victories in the moments when their backs were against the wall even despite injuries.
Should Reese have been fired along with Coughlin? Yes. However both should have been fired after 2013 along with the rest of the coaching staff along as well as a lot of the front office to try and do a 2013 equivalent of the Schoen/Daboll rebuild to maximize Eli's last few remaining years.
Lambuth, I think that's a very good observation. The prevailing fiction of Reese bad Coughlin good is silly and lacks the nuance required to have an interesting debate on that time.
What transpired next proves something else was the root cause. All of the variable in the equation were switched out and the same results occured.
and you can't help but think that the fans should proceed with more caution these days.
He was the power behind the throne from 2012 to 2021. Tisch stepped in and ended all of that. What we saw now is what a modern and normally functioning front office should look like. No matter what is said about him, Chris Mara would still prefer to be calling the shots. Unlike the Jones' in Dallas, the Maras don't have the guts to put it out there publicly. Thank God for the Tisches stepping in and ending that charade.
I have no clue how say Mara has on personnel matters. None of us do. Maybe Joe & Dabs are really running the show or maybe Mara is secretly pulling the strings. I'd bet coin on the former, but who knows? What I do know is that everything Mara did for a decade was a complete debacle until last season. Every choice seemingly was the wrong one.
Mara seems like a good guy & obviously loves the Giants so I'm sure the last decade prior to last fall killed him like it did us. But his old man was a football idiot too until he Rozelle stepped in & gave us GY because Wellington & Tim were at each other's throats.
I have no clue how say Mara has on personnel matters. None of us do. Maybe Joe & Dabs are really running the show or maybe Mara is secretly pulling the strings. I'd bet coin on the former, but who knows? What I do know is that everything Mara did for a decade was a complete debacle until last season. Every choice seemingly was the wrong one.
Mara seems like a good guy & obviously loves the Giants so I'm sure the last decade prior to last fall killed him like it did us. But his old man was a football idiot too until he Rozelle stepped in & gave us GY because Wellington & Tim were at each other's throats.
Eh. A lot of owners suck. The franchise has 4 Super Bowl titles and has been to another.
Look at Dolan. That guy never faces the media. Doesn’t allow Leon Rose to face questions from the media, everything is in house with MSG yet you have fans defend it.
For all of Mara’s faults, he has stood up and faced the music to his credit. Hopefully he finally has hired the right people.
Tom Coughlin was a mediocre-at-best regular season coach between 2009-2012. You can talk about some of the defensive talent shortfalls/scheming in 2009 but that 2010 team was a mess...turnover prone, undisciplined, propensity to check out for a half or not even show up. They had the talent to hang with anyone but lost to Jon Kitna at home by multiple touchdowns, lost to Vince Young by almost 20 despite outgaining them by like 300 yards. I haven't even mentioned the Miracle of the Meadowlands.
Contrast this with the 2005-2008 era where they always pulled out victories in the moments when their backs were against the wall even despite injuries.
Not a bad theory, and certainly the Giants were a juggernaut for most of 2008, but I think it's overstating it to say that that 2005-7 Giants were much more consistent than the 2009-2012 versions. Just off the top of my head:
2005:
- Eli leading a game-tying drive vs Dallas, only for the defense to fold in OT
- Feely missing three FGs in key loss vs the Seahawks
- The Giants completely no-showing for their playoff game vs. Carolina
2006:
- Plenty of sloppy play and disastrous blown leads in losses to Bears, Jags and Titans (maybe Bob Whitfield can give us another false start penalty? Or how about Kiwi failing to wrap up Vince Young?)
- Getting outright embarrassed by the Saints in December (necessitating Tiki's big game a week later vs the Skins to save Coughlin's job)
- Giants tying their playoff game against the Eagles late, only to allow the winning FG drive without much resistance
2007:
- Defense getting embarrassed in first two games out of the gate
- Eli throwing three pick-sixes vs the Vikes
- Nonsensical game plan throwing 50+ passes into hurricane-like winds in loss to the Redskins
If anything, Coughlin was always consistent in his inconsistency from 2005-2012. Good showings in the first half of the season, stumbles down the stretch, some inexplicable mind-bending losses thrown in for good measure. Pretty much held true from Day 1.
The 2009 team had some structural issues but let's not forget they got blown the f%ck out by a terrible Panthers team at home in the last Giant stadium game with the playoffs on the line.
The 2012 team again had the talent to blow out both NFC champion teams but basically checked out of several games in the 2nd half of the season and lost to the 4-12 Eagles.
That whole era is saved by a God-tier Eli performance in 2011 and a Victor Cruz 99-yard touchdown to galvanize a team that was on the verge of falling apart again (see loss to Wash at home the week prior).
Contrast this with the 2005-2008 era where they always pulled out victories in the moments when their backs were against the wall even despite injuries.
Should Reese have been fired along with Coughlin? Yes. However both should have been fired after 2013 along with the rest of the coaching staff along as well as a lot of the front office to try and do a 2013 equivalent of the Schoen/Daboll rebuild to maximize Eli's last few remaining years.
What transpired next proves something else was the root cause. All of the variable in the equation were switched out and the same results occured.
Quote:
stuff like this which has influenced my views of ownership. Those who get pissed off at me about being wary of Mara? This is yet another example.
I've said it before, but it was reported that Mara was looking for any excuse to keep Abrams as GM and Judge as HC.
So when Mara starts voicing opinions about personnel matters, I get nervous.
Tisch has a much larger say than he used to have. I’m not nervous about whatever nonsense comes out of Mara’s mouth as long as Schoen is the GM
Notice that Tisch is in the draft war room now as opposed to almost all of the past. He was there this year and last year. That's not a coincidence.
and you can't help but think that the fans should proceed with more caution these days.
He was the power behind the throne from 2012 to 2021. Tisch stepped in and ended all of that. What we saw now is what a modern and normally functioning front office should look like. No matter what is said about him, Chris Mara would still prefer to be calling the shots. Unlike the Jones' in Dallas, the Maras don't have the guts to put it out there publicly. Thank God for the Tisches stepping in and ending that charade.
Mara seems like a good guy & obviously loves the Giants so I'm sure the last decade prior to last fall killed him like it did us. But his old man was a football idiot too until he Rozelle stepped in & gave us GY because Wellington & Tim were at each other's throats.
Mara seems like a good guy & obviously loves the Giants so I'm sure the last decade prior to last fall killed him like it did us. But his old man was a football idiot too until he Rozelle stepped in & gave us GY because Wellington & Tim were at each other's throats.
Eh. A lot of owners suck. The franchise has 4 Super Bowl titles and has been to another.
Look at Dolan. That guy never faces the media. Doesn’t allow Leon Rose to face questions from the media, everything is in house with MSG yet you have fans defend it.
For all of Mara’s faults, he has stood up and faced the music to his credit. Hopefully he finally has hired the right people.
Contrast this with the 2005-2008 era where they always pulled out victories in the moments when their backs were against the wall even despite injuries.
Not a bad theory, and certainly the Giants were a juggernaut for most of 2008, but I think it's overstating it to say that that 2005-7 Giants were much more consistent than the 2009-2012 versions. Just off the top of my head:
2005:
- Eli leading a game-tying drive vs Dallas, only for the defense to fold in OT
- Feely missing three FGs in key loss vs the Seahawks
- The Giants completely no-showing for their playoff game vs. Carolina
2006:
- Plenty of sloppy play and disastrous blown leads in losses to Bears, Jags and Titans (maybe Bob Whitfield can give us another false start penalty? Or how about Kiwi failing to wrap up Vince Young?)
- Getting outright embarrassed by the Saints in December (necessitating Tiki's big game a week later vs the Skins to save Coughlin's job)
- Giants tying their playoff game against the Eagles late, only to allow the winning FG drive without much resistance
2007:
- Defense getting embarrassed in first two games out of the gate
- Eli throwing three pick-sixes vs the Vikes
- Nonsensical game plan throwing 50+ passes into hurricane-like winds in loss to the Redskins
If anything, Coughlin was always consistent in his inconsistency from 2005-2012. Good showings in the first half of the season, stumbles down the stretch, some inexplicable mind-bending losses thrown in for good measure. Pretty much held true from Day 1.