Amazing episode. One of the better episodes of this season IMO. I can’t wait for the finale. It’s Kendall vs Shiv/Mattson for the throne. Poor Roman is completely OUT.
Poor Roman. He's probably the smartest but also the most socially awkward.
A great part of the show is everyone reads it differently. Roman has always seemed by far the dumbest to me. Can't believe you think he's the smartest.
How great will it be when the “American CEO” isn’t Shiv
Poor Roman. He's probably the smartest but also the most socially awkward.
A great part of the show is everyone reads it differently. Roman has always seemed by far the dumbest to me. Can't believe you think he's the smartest.
I was going to type a response but yeah, you're right, everyone interprets it differently. He's definitely not the most savvy, not the most presentable, etc.
Poor Roman. He's probably the smartest but also the most socially awkward.
This episode made me feel like they are setting up Roman to once again play the decisive and unpredictable role be played at the first Logan power struggle of the series.
the most naturally gifted of the siblings. Kendall strikes me as the who guy has all the book learning, but is more of a paint-by-numbers businessman. What he lacks is his father's and Roman sense of imagination. Roman has his father's knack for deal-making, and his people skills. But his father's life-long pattern of physical abuse has a created in Roman a dependent personality that is psychologically fractured and that undermines all his other natural gifts.
Roman has the highest ceiling, but also the lowest floor. Shiv has the lowest ceiling, but the highest floor. Kendall's ceiling is between Shiv's and Roman's, and so is his floor (but closer to Roman's than Shiv's).
You could see Roman's break coming, but I thought they overdid it in the church and the scene at the end with Roman was ridiculous.
Roman is not the smartest, he's weird (they all are to an extent) but his weirdness is a fatal flaw. Plus he's 4 feet tall and you don't see a lot of 4-feet tall male business leaders.
There is no way Greg can be CEO IMO, the show began with Greg getting fired from Waystar for vomiting, while high, in his mascot costume during that training exercise at the theme park. I refuse to believe Greg winds up anything important (more than he is b/c of his family) despite the character arc over the past 3+ seasons.
Connor actually had his first lucid, not batshit crazy, dialog of the series talking about the story of how Logan won the mausoleum at auction. When he spoke in that scene he reminded more of Ferris Bueller Cameron that any point of this series.
The other guy to make a late breaking appearance was Ewan. It would be a real nod to current events to have Ewan take over Waystar (and ATN) and go "woke" with the company. He is still a board member, isn't he? And despite his anti-capitalist ideals, he's probably the most normal option in the family.
He’s always had an affinity for his siblings and now he has learned that in order to get to the top he has to run over them. He realized Roman isn’t a real threat and Shiv betrayed him by going behind his back, so he will do everything possible to win the throne. You saw the pieces lining up, with gathering up Hugo and Colin. Plus he has always had Frank at this side. I think he’s gaining momentum and really starting to hit his stride.
The US CEO of Waystar. He saw Shiv betray her brothers to get the deal done and I could see him viewing her as a threat in that role. If he puts Greg in then he can put his people in other leadership positions and essentially just bypass Greg to run the company himself. I think there is a reason they keep having these scenes with Greg trying to get in front of Mattson. In real life, absolutely silly, but would be inline with this show and also a commentary on how some business leaders are not where they are based on their brilliance, but based on their birthright.
I think the only outcome that makes sense for this show is a huge showdown between Ken and Shiv for the company that ends with them both being out and someone outside the family running the company. It shows Logan was right all along.
what happens at the end is morally appropriate. The evil guy gets killed, the crooks don't get away with their crime, etc. Because find that morally satisfying. But not all shows.
What is morally appropriate here, of course, is that none of them get to be the "American CEO". Mattson finds someone else. But I don't have confidence they're going to follow "the rules" here. Kind of the moral of this story is that being a bad person does pay, so maybe the most evil should get rewarded. But who is that? They're all so evil. I do believe that at the end Mattson pulls a rabbit out of his hat, but in what direction, I do not know.
But there's a heck of a lot of loose plot threads to tie up here. I don't know how they do all that in one show. Can they just leave the election unsettled? It's not coincidence that at the end of the episode Roman winds up being in the "Tienemany" crowd (great coinage there). I find it hard to believe they don't settle about Mencken and the election at the end. Somehow I can't see it ending as "Kendall takes over and America gets f-cked". The writers must have something up their sleeves
and I think usually penultimate episodes are spectacular as finales tend to have wrap up issues.
I love deal making, and sales pitching so this episode had a ton of that. Even Mattson had to sell his ass off and Shiv's pitch was so tough to a guy who knows she hates. But you can't be soft there either.
Totally got the Roman breakdown, seeing the casket and that body inside was once your father is rough. Plus all the pressure and having to follow Ewan's great speech.
I think the show won't have a clean wrap up and won't tie up all the loose ends but my guess is that Mencken and Mattson appoint Tom to CEO as someone they can truly control. Dude has shown he's so hungry to maintain his lifestyle while the kids were just born into it. Can't wait for the finale.
at the end of S3 he'd probably have the crown now. He refused to not out of loyalty to them, but because he didn't trust his father.
I think the following scenarios are really in play (no particular order):
- Shiv
- Kendall
- Tom
- Wildcard (not Greg)
I think Tom becoming CEO and Greg becoming his right-hand man (the bottom of the top?!?!) would make fans feel the best, so that's probably where they will go. Although the nice thing about series finales is that you don't need to do any fan service.
The most "fitting" end would be for Mattson and/or Mencken to fuck the kids over and you get a Wildcard ending. Then we'll have to feel really bad about 3 billionaires not getting what they want, which is one of the great parts of this show: you're actually invested in these terrible nepo-baby-billionaires and their wants and desires.
and because of that, and has she’s willing to fuck over any and everyone, she’s most like her father IMO. Don’t agree at all on Roman having the highest ceiling - he’s too emotionally fragile and isn’t cutthroat enough when it counts. He’s baby bro and always will be.
If Greg takes over in any capacity I’ll be annoyed. He’s a sidebar and provides comic relief, and it should stay that way.
was just a power play to fuck with Tom. My understanding is that these days doctors advise that pregnant women can have a glass of wine here or there and it's ok.
is emotionally and mentally stunted. He reminds me a little of Commodus in Gladiator. Someone who is so obviously flawed people don't take him seriously, but you have to cater to him because of his last name and he could realistically come into "power".
the kids suck but havent they written everyone else to suck more?
matsson and his whole traveling crew are strange and with a lot of problems even beyond the fake #s.
mencken was always logan's empty vessel who would be nowhere without ATN and now he's going to completely screw them over at his first opportunity after immediately after they may have had a big hand in making him president.
the ending of that episode setting things up for shiv is obviously some kind of misdirection so her getting us ceo feels easiest to rule out. out of a bunch of crappy choices they've made kendall the least unlikeable of the unlikeables. he's had a few triumphant moments this season and mostly tried to make the sibling thing work. roman has had a slow breakdown and shiv abandoned them to angle for matsson almost right away.
bringing back colin and unleashing hugo feels like he's gone full logan now right down to completely repelling his kids. if anyone pulls out a logan escape i think kendall is basically the only choice. though i could see an ending where all 3 kids get screwed over and it's tom who gets the us ceo spot. early in the season i thought the 3 kids acting together seemed to be working and maybe that's how it would end and there's still a sliver of a possibility shiv can somehow screw over matsson. if she finds out that he intends to name someone else as us ceo she could swing hard back to kendall's direction.
also get the feeling that there's a big card left to play with atn trying to swing the election away from mencken. maybe matsson tries to screw her and that phone call to nate finally happens and team jimenez is ready to talk deal? you would think a loud public retraction of their call for mencken would turn public sentiment toward jimenez.
RE: Shiv made the biggest power play of the series
and because of that, and has she’s willing to fuck over any and everyone, she’s most like her father IMO. Don’t agree at all on Roman having the highest ceiling - he’s too emotionally fragile and isn’t cutthroat enough when it counts. He’s baby bro and always will be.
If Greg takes over in any capacity I’ll be annoyed. He’s a sidebar and provides comic relief, and it should stay that way.
i agree with all that though i wouldn't necessarily call shivs power play the biggest of the series. roman made a big powerplay with mencken. kendall's made a half dozen from season 1 through whistleblower. none of them have worked. shivs doesn't seem well set up enough to work either. im pretty sure she's just the next to strike out because matsson has her dick in his hands but she has nothing on him. getting him to put out the numbers was probably a mistake, if she had that in her pocket she'd at least have some leverage on him.
kendall seems gearing up for a final power play and since he's had the most power plays maybe this is the time it finally works out.
making Tom CEO is in some ways the most cynical move; the quintessential company yes man / fall man who has done nothing but strived for the top starting from S1E1 when he was trying to figure out the "perfect" gift for Logan.
making Tom CEO is in some ways the most cynical move; the quintessential company yes man / fall man who has done nothing but strived for the top starting from S1E1 when he was trying to figure out the "perfect" gift for Logan.
it's believable that matsson would prefer someone like him to someone like shiv once her usefulness is outlived. and shiv getting shiv'd by tom once again would be a good twist.
Okay, time for my annoying weekly question on the new episode:
Is Shiv pregnant or not? I didn't catch that repartee with Tom towards the end. I know Shiv said she was pregnant to her brothers, but then she was drinking alcohol with Tom and Tom gave her a look like, "Uhhh, why are you drinking when you just told me you're pregnant?" But I didn't really understand the back-and-forth between them as it pertains to the pregnancy.
RE: Okay, time for my annoying weekly question on the new episode:
Is Shiv pregnant or not? I didn't catch that repartee with Tom towards the end. I know Shiv said she was pregnant to her brothers, but then she was drinking alcohol with Tom and Tom gave her a look like, "Uhhh, why are you drinking when you just told me you're pregnant?" But I didn't really understand the back-and-forth between them as it pertains to the pregnancy.
Of course she's pregnant. She was drinking champaign to torture Tom, like "look at me harming your child that you questioned even existed."
RE: Okay, time for my annoying weekly question on the new episode:
Is Shiv pregnant or not? I didn't catch that repartee with Tom towards the end. I know Shiv said she was pregnant to her brothers, but then she was drinking alcohol with Tom and Tom gave her a look like, "Uhhh, why are you drinking when you just told me you're pregnant?" But I didn't really understand the back-and-forth between them as it pertains to the pregnancy.
I took it to mean she didn't care about the baby and his reaction was I don't either.
Didn't her mother look at her and notice right away she was pregnant?
The start to one of the episodes was her getting a call from the doctor saying the baby is ok. (They showed us that so the viewer wouldn't have doubts later.)
I’m reminded of something Tom told Greg recently. Information is like fine wine. Hold onto it, savor it, then when the time comes, bash someone over the head with the wine bottle. I fully expect the story of Kendall and the guy who died in the car accident to come out during the board meeting. It’s no coincidence that the security guy showed up during this ep. Who knows if he told someone? Who knows if Logan told someone like Marcia, Kerry, Frank, etc. Hell, Shiv and Roman might’ve told someone. Roman’s breakdown eliminated him from contention, never mind his harassment of Gerri. And I seriously doubt that Shiv will be rewarded for fucking over her family, despite her understandable intentions. Most of the board wants to sell to GoJo. I expect Tom to be made CEO as a reward for his hard work recently and most importantly, for making Mencken President. Greg will fall ass backwards into more power than he ever had.
As for the idiot siblings, had they just worked together and subjugated their egos, they could’ve done a good job running the company. Their strengths complement each other and cover their weaknesses. Kendall knows the business backwards and forwards. But he’s terrible with people and prone to emotional decisions. Roman is great in dealing with people in power (transactional relationships) and is unemotional about business. But he’s highly abusive of underlings without generating the same loyalty or fear Logan did. That’s not even mentioning his harassment of Gerri. Shiv’s business morals wouldn’t allow ATN to be so shitty or what happened with the cruise scandal. But she isn’t nearly as smart as she thinks she is. They’ll be richer after the sale, but they’ll be stuck with Pierce. Maybe they make it happen there.
he knows Kendall is responsible for the dead waiter
he knows (and has proof) Tom instructed him to destroy the documents about the cruise ship sexual assaults
he knows Shiv is aware of the inflated Gojo subscriber numbers
he knows Mattson falsified the numbers, or it was done on his watch
Am I missing anything?
Roman basically took himself out.
Greg has a lot of wine bottles he can wield next week.
RE: How great will it be when the “American CEO” isn’t Shiv
I’m reminded of something Tom told Greg recently. Information is like fine wine. Hold onto it, savor it, then when the time comes, bash someone over the head with the wine bottle. I fully expect the story of Kendall and the guy who died in the car accident to come out during the board meeting. It’s no coincidence that the security guy showed up during this ep. Who knows if he told someone? Who knows if Logan told someone like Marcia, Kerry, Frank, etc. Hell, Shiv and Roman might’ve told someone. Roman’s breakdown eliminated him from contention, never mind his harassment of Gerri. And I seriously doubt that Shiv will be rewarded for fucking over her family, despite her understandable intentions. Most of the board wants to sell to GoJo. I expect Tom to be made CEO as a reward for his hard work recently and most importantly, for making Mencken President. Greg will fall ass backwards into more power than he ever had.
As for the idiot siblings, had they just worked together and subjugated their egos, they could’ve done a good job running the company. Their strengths complement each other and cover their weaknesses. Kendall knows the business backwards and forwards. But he’s terrible with people and prone to emotional decisions. Roman is great in dealing with people in power (transactional relationships) and is unemotional about business. But he’s highly abusive of underlings without generating the same loyalty or fear Logan did. That’s not even mentioning his harassment of Gerri. Shiv’s business morals wouldn’t allow ATN to be so shitty or what happened with the cruise scandal. But she isn’t nearly as smart as she thinks she is. They’ll be richer after the sale, but they’ll be stuck with Pierce. Maybe they make it happen there.
I also expect that Kendall ordering the "deep faking" Logan's video about the retirement home to come out, because that is securities fraud 101 (lying to investors about profit projections).
they can't do it on Waystar Living+ and NOT on GoJo*
*As someone who has been involved in plenty of securities fraud and adjacent litigations, the idea that the market would just disregard it because of the ongoing political turmoil is laughable. There are always plaintiffs' lawyers looking to get rich and SEC/DOJ lawyers looking to make a name for themselves. I understand we have to suspend disbelief a bit because it's a show -- such as with Logan's written statement, which as a lawyer I knew was completely meaningless -- but I would like a little consistency.
In the last episode where he tells all his kids that none of them are serious people. He knows that none of them can run the company successfully. I think none of them come out on top, and none of them deserve to. I think Logan's play to Roman right before he died was likely just another chance to drive a wedge between the siblings and hold onto power.
Mencken backpedaling on nixing the Gojo deal was pure gold in this episode...but I hope Mencken loses the presidency as expected.
What a great show, I am sad to see it end!
To me, this show has always been primarily about...
the dynamics between Logan and Kendall. It's pretty clear at this point that they are setting Kendall up to turn into his father, who he (mostly) despised. So I see the show ending one of two ways....either Kendall fully becomes his father (e.g. alienated from his kids, not speaking to his siblings, kicking ass as CEO, etc) or he realizes that he's becoming everything he despised at the last minute and says fuck it that not who I am and just walks away.
RE: To me, this show has always been primarily about...
the dynamics between Logan and Kendall. It's pretty clear at this point that they are setting Kendall up to turn into his father, who he (mostly) despised. So I see the show ending one of two ways....either Kendall fully becomes his father (e.g. alienated from his kids, not speaking to his siblings, kicking ass as CEO, etc) or he realizes that he's becoming everything he despised at the last minute and says fuck it that not who I am and just walks away.
too much being made of all the posturing. It’s Kendall’s to take if he wants it and the two biggest scenes for me were each with Rava the past 2 episodes. If he becomes Logan his kids are gone forever. He’s going to have to pick one or the other, he can’t have both.
RE: RE: Okay, time for my annoying weekly question on the new episode:
Is Shiv pregnant or not? I didn't catch that repartee with Tom towards the end. I know Shiv said she was pregnant to her brothers, but then she was drinking alcohol with Tom and Tom gave her a look like, "Uhhh, why are you drinking when you just told me you're pregnant?" But I didn't really understand the back-and-forth between them as it pertains to the pregnancy.
Didn't her mother look at her and notice right away she was pregnant?
Yep. She was just waiting for Shiv to come out and say it.
to say Kendall is becoming everything he despised. he was always a piece of shit.
From episode 1, Kendall never showed any morals, he was always just like Logan, but he was incompetent. Kendall only got a case of morals because Logan wouldn't name him successor and he thought he could force him out.
to say Kendall is becoming everything he despised. he was always a piece of shit.
From episode 1, Kendall never showed any morals, he was always just like Logan, but he was incompetent. Kendall only got a case of morals because Logan wouldn't name him successor and he thought he could force him out.
He may have always been a piece of shit in reality, but in his mind he (like the rest of us) always saw himself as "a good guy." That's what Shiv kept playing too during the election episode, telling him that he's a "good guy." Probably the most interesting line of the entire series is when Kendall responds by saying, "I don't know, maybe the poison drips through."
for the entirety of the show. I think he wants to do good while also take over the company and he keeps finding out it won’t work. He’s going to have to go all in.
about Kendall is he has a shred of self awareness.
he acknowledges he's not a good father, but he's also responsible the death of a person and just basically got on with his life like a sociopath. that is not "good person" behavior.
for the entirety of the show. I think he wants to do good while also take over the company and he keeps finding out it won’t work. He’s going to have to go all in.
I think he realized that at the end of the episode. His wife took his kids, his sister has backstabbed him, and Roman is only looking out for his best interest. He’s going all in and taking the throne IMO.
Would be something if the finale is tilted "The Poison."
about Kendall is he has a shred of self awareness.
he acknowledges he's not a good father, but he's also responsible the death of a person and just basically got on with his life like a sociopath. that is not "good person" behavior.
I may be remembering it wrong but he was in a speeding car that swerved to avoid a deer and he actually went back in twice to try and save the guy. The dishonorable thing was the coverup but the guy was dead already.
That being said I have no idea what will happen next week except I don't think it will be Roman and I don't think Roman wants it to be Roman anymore.
he knows Kendall is responsible for the dead waiter
he knows (and has proof) Tom instructed him to destroy the documents about the cruise ship sexual assaults
he knows Shiv is aware of the inflated Gojo subscriber numbers
he knows Mattson falsified the numbers, or it was done on his watch
Am I missing anything?
Roman basically took himself out.
Greg has a lot of wine bottles he can wield next week.
It’s certainly possible that the show goes scorched earth and EVERYONE is fucked. That would include Matsson not getting the company and Mencken not becoming President. In that scenario, maybe Gerri becomes interim CEO. Regardless of what happens, I think Greg is going to come out smelling like a rose.
about Kendall is he has a shred of self awareness.
he acknowledges he's not a good father, but he's also responsible the death of a person and just basically got on with his life like a sociopath. that is not "good person" behavior.
I may be remembering it wrong but he was in a speeding car that swerved to avoid a deer and he actually went back in twice to try and save the guy. The dishonorable thing was the coverup but the guy was dead already.
That being said I have no idea what will happen next week except I don't think it will be Roman and I don't think Roman wants it to be Roman anymore.
he was drunk and on drugs, if that was real life, do you think that only the coverup is dishonorable?
but I don’t think it changes the good that exists within him, it just doesn’t come out that often because he’s trying to emulate his father. Logan wouldn’t have gone back to try and save him, for example. I think that’s the difference.
he was drunk and on drugs, if that was real life, do you think that only the coverup is dishonorable?
But the other guy was there of his own volition. Kendall didn’t kidnap the guy. However, there’s no avoiding the complete stain that was the coverup and Logan taking Kendall to the guy’s family’s house to lie through their teeth.
but I don’t think it changes the good that exists within him, it just doesn’t come out that often because he’s trying to emulate his father. Logan wouldn’t have gone back to try and save him, for example. I think that’s the difference.
lol, I don't know. Logan isn't Genghis Khan, but they're all morally bankrupt, mostly (only) just care about money and power, and finding the person with a hint of a conscious IMO doesn't really make them much better than the others.
but they’ve spent a ton of time on Kendall’s arch and all along the way his internal struggle of trying to be better than his father while also realizing he needs to be like him to succeed. We can go character by character and rank their “goodness” but it’s subjective and probably a waste of time. I think it’s pretty clear Kendall is a better man than his father but that gap will shrink completely if he seizes the throne.
to say Kendall is becoming everything he despised. he was always a piece of shit.
From episode 1, Kendall never showed any morals, he was always just like Logan, but he was incompetent. Kendall only got a case of morals because Logan wouldn't name him successor and he thought he could force him out.
this post made me think of this part of ewan's eulogy:
Quote:
He was mean, and he made but a mean estimation of the world and he fed a certain kind of meagreness in men. Perhaps he had to because he had a meagreness about him and maybe I do about me too, I don’t know. I try. I try. I don’t know when but sometime he decided not to try anymore and it was a terrible shame.
i think the trying is the difference - kendall has always been conflicted and wanted to try to do what he perceives as the right thing. last week we saw him do it twice when he put his cards on the table with shiv and when he was conflicted trying to hold off roman.
is kendall now blowing through that orange light with his war dogs colin and hugo at his side?
to uconn's point if he does the kids are probably gone forever.
about Kendall is he has a shred of self awareness.
he acknowledges he's not a good father, but he's also responsible the death of a person and just basically got on with his life like a sociopath. that is not "good person" behavior.
I may be remembering it wrong but he was in a speeding car that swerved to avoid a deer and he actually went back in twice to try and save the guy. The dishonorable thing was the coverup but the guy was dead already.
That being said I have no idea what will happen next week except I don't think it will be Roman and I don't think Roman wants it to be Roman anymore.
he was drunk and on drugs, if that was real life, do you think that only the coverup is dishonorable?
1. It was def dishonorable and under US law manslaughter of some sort.
2. This arc mirrors something that happened in real life, but I will follow Eric's rules and say no more.
about Kendall is he has a shred of self awareness.
he acknowledges he's not a good father, but he's also responsible the death of a person and just basically got on with his life like a sociopath. that is not "good person" behavior.
I may be remembering it wrong but he was in a speeding car that swerved to avoid a deer and he actually went back in twice to try and save the guy. The dishonorable thing was the coverup but the guy was dead already.
That being said I have no idea what will happen next week except I don't think it will be Roman and I don't think Roman wants it to be Roman anymore.
he was drunk and on drugs, if that was real life, do you think that only the coverup is dishonorable?
1. It was def dishonorable and under US law manslaughter of some sort.
2. This arc mirrors something that happened in real life, but I will follow Eric's rules and say no more.
Which one of Eric’s rules prevents you from telling us the real life event that inspired that part of a tv show?
It’s not political talk to say that event inspired the series.
Yes. I've been not making the obvious connection to ATN, either. Even though it's beyond obvious what the references are, I've had people ruin completely innocuous threads for even mentioning politicians. There was one recently (I'm blanking on the topic) with really good discussion where a few clowns felt the need to roll through and start getting political. It's like a mosquito light for some people.
Anyway, if art mirrors life, Kendall could get away with it, which was my point that I should have stated.
That demeanor was interesting for maybe 8 minutes. Now the whole “I’m so keyed in and deep” persona is ridiculous. Makes me want to punch him. It’s weak.
He’s always had an affinity for his siblings and now he has learned that in order to get to the top he has to run over them. He realized Roman isn’t a real threat and Shiv betrayed him by going behind his back, so he will do everything possible to win the throne. You saw the pieces lining up, with gathering up Hugo and Colin. Plus he has always had Frank at this side. I think he’s gaining momentum and really starting to hit his stride.
is holding a hand out to, and now I do, he's the security guy from the whole Scottish incident.
Is this a big red herring, re-introducing him in the penultimate episode or is it hugely significant?
If Mencken could insist, it would make sense for him to insist on Kendall as CEO, but he can't insist.
I don't believe Madsen fears Shiv, rather he genuinely sees her as in harmony more or less with his own outlook.
Roman is not a player anymore, not after his performance at the funeral, and yes, it reallly does go like that when you blub in front of all the powerful and influential. Kendal understands that.
Tom is a possibility if Madsen wants someone to bend over, which is plausible.
If you have Tom, why would you choose Greg instead? I just don't see it.
RE: Okay, so I didn't know who the guy was that Kendal
is holding a hand out to, and now I do, he's the security guy from the whole Scottish incident.
Is this a big red herring, re-introducing him in the penultimate episode or is it hugely significant?
If Mencken could insist, it would make sense for him to insist on Kendall as CEO, but he can't insist.
I don't believe Madsen fears Shiv, rather he genuinely sees her as in harmony more or less with his own outlook.
Roman is not a player anymore, not after his performance at the funeral, and yes, it reallly does go like that when you blub in front of all the powerful and influential. Kendal understands that.
Tom is a possibility if Madsen wants someone to bend over, which is plausible.
If you have Tom, why would you choose Greg instead? I just don't see it.
The security guy you are referring to is Colin, who has been in the series entirely as Logan’s head of security and muscle.
from Mattson to Shiv pretty much seal the deal that they agreed to Shiv as CEO if the deal goes through?
If not, what was the call about?
If so, it ends all speculation of who will be CEO. Shiv if the deal goes through. Kendall if the deal is blocked.
What remains is how everything blows up. Does Mencken block the deal, even though the election is still contested, and he's months away from taking office? Is Kendall blackmailed into backing down/forced to accept the deal? Roman is disgraced, so Kendall is all that's left.
from Mattson to Shiv pretty much seal the deal that they agreed to Shiv as CEO if the deal goes through?
If not, what was the call about?
If so, it ends all speculation of who will be CEO. Shiv if the deal goes through. Kendall if the deal is blocked.
What remains is how everything blows up. Does Mencken block the deal, even though the election is still contested, and he's months away from taking office? Is Kendall blackmailed into backing down/forced to accept the deal? Roman is disgraced, so Kendall is all that's left.
I’ve learned nobody on this show can be trusted at their word.
from Mattson to Shiv pretty much seal the deal that they agreed to Shiv as CEO if the deal goes through?
If not, what was the call about?
If so, it ends all speculation of who will be CEO. Shiv if the deal goes through. Kendall if the deal is blocked.
What remains is how everything blows up. Does Mencken block the deal, even though the election is still contested, and he's months away from taking office? Is Kendall blackmailed into backing down/forced to accept the deal? Roman is disgraced, so Kendall is all that's left.
I’ve learned nobody on this show can be trusted at their word.
yeah for me that call basically guaranteed it won't end with shiv. if matsson gets the company i think he screws her, or somehow kendall wins, possibly bc shiv realizes that and screws mattson instead.
i think the earlier post in this thread about kendall ultimately choosing between ceo or his family but not both is a great unifying theory of the series. and probably ends with him choosing ceo.
is holding a hand out to, and now I do, he's the security guy from the whole Scottish incident.
Is this a big red herring, re-introducing him in the penultimate episode or is it hugely significant?
If Mencken could insist, it would make sense for him to insist on Kendall as CEO, but he can't insist.
I don't believe Madsen fears Shiv, rather he genuinely sees her as in harmony more or less with his own outlook.
Roman is not a player anymore, not after his performance at the funeral, and yes, it reallly does go like that when you blub in front of all the powerful and influential. Kendal understands that.
Tom is a possibility if Madsen wants someone to bend over, which is plausible.
If you have Tom, why would you choose Greg instead? I just don't see it.
The security guy you are referring to is Colin, who has been in the series entirely as Logan’s head of security and muscle.
I know that's who he is, but have we heard from him during this season?
RE: RE: RE: Okay, so I didn't know who the guy was that Kendal
is holding a hand out to, and now I do, he's the security guy from the whole Scottish incident.
Is this a big red herring, re-introducing him in the penultimate episode or is it hugely significant?
If Mencken could insist, it would make sense for him to insist on Kendall as CEO, but he can't insist.
I don't believe Madsen fears Shiv, rather he genuinely sees her as in harmony more or less with his own outlook.
Roman is not a player anymore, not after his performance at the funeral, and yes, it reallly does go like that when you blub in front of all the powerful and influential. Kendal understands that.
Tom is a possibility if Madsen wants someone to bend over, which is plausible.
If you have Tom, why would you choose Greg instead? I just don't see it.
The security guy you are referring to is Colin, who has been in the series entirely as Logan’s head of security and muscle.
I know that's who he is, but have we heard from him during this season?
Yes, he was with Logan at diner having the weird conversation about life and death.
from Mattson to Shiv pretty much seal the deal that they agreed to Shiv as CEO if the deal goes through?
If not, what was the call about?
If so, it ends all speculation of who will be CEO. Shiv if the deal goes through. Kendall if the deal is blocked.
What remains is how everything blows up. Does Mencken block the deal, even though the election is still contested, and he's months away from taking office? Is Kendall blackmailed into backing down/forced to accept the deal? Roman is disgraced, so Kendall is all that's left.
I’ve learned nobody on this show can be trusted at their word.
Exactly.
Also, is this definitely the final season? Or might they leave us with the possibility of "to be continued."
Disappointed not to see more of Stewy.
Is Kendal going to get away with what happened in Scotland?
what she is asking for is not even the empire. She asking to be bought out and then an at-will employee of the new owner. What's the win there.
Earlier in the season Kendall said it best when Mattson tried to buy them out "we are already rich"--
not sure I understand why a billionaire would sell to be then appointed CEO when they can have that in the first place. I mean if you are talking dollars and cents because of Mattson's offer it might make financial sense, but when you are billionaire who the heck cares if you really want to run things. The whole Shiv wins thing would be absurd. Also, her selling herself to Mattson was a complete and utter embarrassment.
Roman can't be the leader after that meltdown and Kendall is just too damaged to be the leader.
I don't really know where they can go with his ending other than to see all the kids screwed and not succeed Logan. But the worst outcome would be Shiv's because her plan is to basically be an employee after cashing out. What kind of succession is that and how long will that last.
as a non billionaire. Shiv wants power, plain and simple. She wants to be the one running her fathers company. She cares, a lot.
Ok, but she still serves at Mattson's will. The point of being a billionaire is power. She cedes all power for excess money that she does not need. It makes almost no sense. If she wants to run the company, she shouldn't sell. He can fire her in two minutes alas the whole her selling herself as the CEO to him, even to the point of saying she would spit out her baby in 36 hours.
and her brother don’t, which has been the entirety of the show plot. Not sure what language would exist in her contract to keep herself from being fired immediately but that seems like a plausible scenario. But I don’t think that matters - if Shivs plan works she wins and the brother lose which is the point of the show.
and her brother don’t, which has been the entirety of the show plot. Not sure what language would exist in her contract to keep herself from being fired immediately but that seems like a plausible scenario. But I don’t think that matters - if Shivs plan works she wins and the brother lose which is the point of the show.
Not sure what victory that would be other than spite. Fine, she one ups her brothers but that is not a victory at all--to run the empire you dad had without owning that empire. At least Kendall and Roman's plan to keep the empire makes sense. Shiv's makes absolutely no sense whatsoever other than spite. So we watched four seasons, so they can sell off the empire and have the daughter become an at-will employee of another guy just so she can shove it to her brothers. Seems like a complete and utter waste of time.
and how stupid these characters are. If they operated your way there wouldn’t be a show or, they would have had this wrapped up by now with the kids smartening up, taking over and moving on. Spite is exactly what we’ve witnessed for 4 seasons.
and her brother don’t, which has been the entirety of the show plot. Not sure what language would exist in her contract to keep herself from being fired immediately but that seems like a plausible scenario. But I don’t think that matters - if Shivs plan works she wins and the brother lose which is the point of the show.
Not sure what victory that would be other than spite. Fine, she one ups her brothers but that is not a victory at all--to run the empire you dad had without owning that empire. At least Kendall and Roman's plan to keep the empire makes sense. Shiv's makes absolutely no sense whatsoever other than spite. So we watched four seasons, so they can sell off the empire and have the daughter become an at-will employee of another guy just so she can shove it to her brothers. Seems like a complete and utter waste of time.
I agree thats the shittiest outcome for the family but from Shiv's side, once they excluded her from the CEO role, what play did she really have? You could see them already squeezing her out. Or are you just saying the writing needed to take her in another direction. (And I dont think Shiv gets the nod in any case)
as a non billionaire. Shiv wants power, plain and simple. She wants to be the one running her fathers company. She cares, a lot.
Ok, but she still serves at Mattson's will. The point of being a billionaire is power. She cedes all power for excess money that she does not need. It makes almost no sense. If she wants to run the company, she shouldn't sell. He can fire her in two minutes alas the whole her selling herself as the CEO to him, even to the point of saying she would spit out her baby in 36 hours.
After seeing the episode a second time, I am convinced Shiv will not be the CEO of Waystar. One of two things will happen. Either Mattson buys out the company and appoints someone he trust as CEO (to appease Mencken) or Kendall will win out and be named the CEO. For all of Kendall’s faults he has shown tremendous growth this season, especially now that he is out of his father’s shadow.
and her brother don’t, which has been the entirety of the show plot. Not sure what language would exist in her contract to keep herself from being fired immediately but that seems like a plausible scenario. But I don’t think that matters - if Shivs plan works she wins and the brother lose which is the point of the show.
Not sure what victory that would be other than spite. Fine, she one ups her brothers but that is not a victory at all--to run the empire you dad had without owning that empire. At least Kendall and Roman's plan to keep the empire makes sense. Shiv's makes absolutely no sense whatsoever other than spite. So we watched four seasons, so they can sell off the empire and have the daughter become an at-will employee of another guy just so she can shove it to her brothers. Seems like a complete and utter waste of time.
I agree thats the shittiest outcome for the family but from Shiv's side, once they excluded her from the CEO role, what play did she really have? You could see them already squeezing her out. Or are you just saying the writing needed to take her in another direction. (And I dont think Shiv gets the nod in any case)
Yes, I am arguing that they had to take Shiv in another direction. Imo, ending the show (if Shiv wins) by selling the empire where she becomes the employee would not really be a succession to me of controlling the empire. She, in effect, would have no control as you saw her having to resort to begging Mattson to make her CEO. Maybe if she partnered up with Mattson in a financial way to purchase it etc, it would make more sense, but her in the end being an employee of Mattson's company with what I would guess is some stock from the sale, is not a satisfying ending imo.
is named American CEO of Gojo-Waystar she basically wins.
She is the successor, it's what they've all been after since episode 1 and basically the title of the show. You can always say, "they're all billionaires, how do they lose?" but that's not how they think. They crave the power. If it's just money they're basically Connor, who everyone views as a loser.
If Shiv really has the chops her old man did, I think she would do something like be named CEO and then have Matsson taken away in cuffs for fraud, etc. for cooking the books. She warned him at least 3 times to go public with the "incorrect" subscriber counts and then she would become global CEO.
Shiv being a castrated CEO sort of makes sense. I don't think it will go that way.
I'm curious on how they do this episode. There is a lot to resolve. The election, its impact on the deal, whether the deal goes through, and who is CEO. And then maybe dealing with the estate?
If I had to guess (and this is a low confident bet), there is something in the will that throws a wrench into a lot of this.
Maybe the fraud Kendall/Roman committed doctoring Logan's voice comes into play.
I have not really loved this season but did like the last episode. Curious on how they end things.
is named American CEO of Gojo-Waystar she basically wins.
She is the successor, it's what they've all been after since episode 1 and basically the title of the show. You can always say, "they're all billionaires, how do they lose?" but that's not how they think. They crave the power. If it's just money they're basically Connor, who everyone views as a loser.
If Shiv really has the chops her old man did, I think she would do something like be named CEO and then have Matsson taken away in cuffs for fraud, etc. for cooking the books. She warned him at least 3 times to go public with the "incorrect" subscriber counts and then she would become global CEO.
I would argue Shiv loses because she isn’t in control of her own destiny. That isn’t succession in my mind. Kendall and Roman can lose big time also because they want the company. Kendall said it best to Mattson “we are already rich”—they want control that keeps them owning the company. Shiv’s control is a lot more fragile and can be changed at the whim of anotjrt eccentric billionaire. That isn’t succeeding Logan to the throne. At best, that is being a caretaker of the throne until the new eccentric billionaire changes his mind
she hated her father, doesn’t like her brothers, hates her husband, has no friends. She operates so others lose even if she doesn’t exclusively win. Her becoming the CEO is a win, since she’s still standing and everyone else isn’t. You may not see that as succession but her character does.
Logan wasn't any more in control of his destiny either.
He faced a vote of no confidence. He "won" but how did he control his destiny?
Plus he was on the verge of losing the company when the stock plummeted (after his stroke?)
no one ever truly controls their destiny in business like this.
I think we have all stated our points, but Logan needed his entire family to rebel to lose power (which almost happened) until Tom alerted him and he could get his ex-wife (who btw is an amazing character he’d seen with Kerry and Marcia stole Sunday night imo) on his side. Shiv’s power would be a lot more flimsy and would basically have no moves if one person wanted her out
as Pjcas pointed out Shiv can just as easily take over the company from Mattsen as he can fire her. The writers have left themselves with a bunch of options.
but her position is CEO, which is her goal. She knows she's not getting it if the company remains in family hands. Even if she did get CEO with the company in family hands, she has two greedy brothers looking to take her out and assume the mantle herself. Her position is not safe any way you look at it.
All the family showed they were willing to backstab the others, including Connor (although his backstab was more of the knucklehead, clueless, blunder-the refusal to accept a diplomatic post after asking for one, and having Roman set one up - than intentional malice). Shiv's no better, or worse, than the others.
Poor Roman. He's probably the smartest but also the most socially awkward.
Poor Roman. He's probably the smartest but also the most socially awkward.
A great part of the show is everyone reads it differently. Roman has always seemed by far the dumbest to me. Can't believe you think he's the smartest.
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And it seems like we'll get a definitive answer.
Poor Roman. He's probably the smartest but also the most socially awkward.
A great part of the show is everyone reads it differently. Roman has always seemed by far the dumbest to me. Can't believe you think he's the smartest.
I was going to type a response but yeah, you're right, everyone interprets it differently. He's definitely not the most savvy, not the most presentable, etc.
CEO Tom Wombsgams?
Poor Roman. He's probably the smartest but also the most socially awkward.
This episode made me feel like they are setting up Roman to once again play the decisive and unpredictable role be played at the first Logan power struggle of the series.
Roman has the highest ceiling, but also the lowest floor. Shiv has the lowest ceiling, but the highest floor. Kendall's ceiling is between Shiv's and Roman's, and so is his floor (but closer to Roman's than Shiv's).
You could see Roman's break coming, but I thought they overdid it in the church and the scene at the end with Roman was ridiculous.
Roman is not the smartest, he's weird (they all are to an extent) but his weirdness is a fatal flaw. Plus he's 4 feet tall and you don't see a lot of 4-feet tall male business leaders.
There is no way Greg can be CEO IMO, the show began with Greg getting fired from Waystar for vomiting, while high, in his mascot costume during that training exercise at the theme park. I refuse to believe Greg winds up anything important (more than he is b/c of his family) despite the character arc over the past 3+ seasons.
Connor actually had his first lucid, not batshit crazy, dialog of the series talking about the story of how Logan won the mausoleum at auction. When he spoke in that scene he reminded more of Ferris Bueller Cameron that any point of this series.
The other guy to make a late breaking appearance was Ewan. It would be a real nod to current events to have Ewan take over Waystar (and ATN) and go "woke" with the company. He is still a board member, isn't he? And despite his anti-capitalist ideals, he's probably the most normal option in the family.
I think the only outcome that makes sense for this show is a huge showdown between Ken and Shiv for the company that ends with them both being out and someone outside the family running the company. It shows Logan was right all along.
What is morally appropriate here, of course, is that none of them get to be the "American CEO". Mattson finds someone else. But I don't have confidence they're going to follow "the rules" here. Kind of the moral of this story is that being a bad person does pay, so maybe the most evil should get rewarded. But who is that? They're all so evil. I do believe that at the end Mattson pulls a rabbit out of his hat, but in what direction, I do not know.
But there's a heck of a lot of loose plot threads to tie up here. I don't know how they do all that in one show. Can they just leave the election unsettled? It's not coincidence that at the end of the episode Roman winds up being in the "Tienemany" crowd (great coinage there). I find it hard to believe they don't settle about Mencken and the election at the end. Somehow I can't see it ending as "Kendall takes over and America gets f-cked". The writers must have something up their sleeves
I love deal making, and sales pitching so this episode had a ton of that. Even Mattson had to sell his ass off and Shiv's pitch was so tough to a guy who knows she hates. But you can't be soft there either.
Totally got the Roman breakdown, seeing the casket and that body inside was once your father is rough. Plus all the pressure and having to follow Ewan's great speech.
I think the show won't have a clean wrap up and won't tie up all the loose ends but my guess is that Mencken and Mattson appoint Tom to CEO as someone they can truly control. Dude has shown he's so hungry to maintain his lifestyle while the kids were just born into it. Can't wait for the finale.
I think the following scenarios are really in play (no particular order):
- Shiv
- Kendall
- Tom
- Wildcard (not Greg)
I think Tom becoming CEO and Greg becoming his right-hand man (the bottom of the top?!?!) would make fans feel the best, so that's probably where they will go. Although the nice thing about series finales is that you don't need to do any fan service.
The most "fitting" end would be for Mattson and/or Mencken to fuck the kids over and you get a Wildcard ending. Then we'll have to feel really bad about 3 billionaires not getting what they want, which is one of the great parts of this show: you're actually invested in these terrible nepo-baby-billionaires and their wants and desires.
If Greg takes over in any capacity I’ll be annoyed. He’s a sidebar and provides comic relief, and it should stay that way.
mencken was always logan's empty vessel who would be nowhere without ATN and now he's going to completely screw them over at his first opportunity after immediately after they may have had a big hand in making him president.
the ending of that episode setting things up for shiv is obviously some kind of misdirection so her getting us ceo feels easiest to rule out. out of a bunch of crappy choices they've made kendall the least unlikeable of the unlikeables. he's had a few triumphant moments this season and mostly tried to make the sibling thing work. roman has had a slow breakdown and shiv abandoned them to angle for matsson almost right away.
bringing back colin and unleashing hugo feels like he's gone full logan now right down to completely repelling his kids. if anyone pulls out a logan escape i think kendall is basically the only choice. though i could see an ending where all 3 kids get screwed over and it's tom who gets the us ceo spot. early in the season i thought the 3 kids acting together seemed to be working and maybe that's how it would end and there's still a sliver of a possibility shiv can somehow screw over matsson. if she finds out that he intends to name someone else as us ceo she could swing hard back to kendall's direction.
also get the feeling that there's a big card left to play with atn trying to swing the election away from mencken. maybe matsson tries to screw her and that phone call to nate finally happens and team jimenez is ready to talk deal? you would think a loud public retraction of their call for mencken would turn public sentiment toward jimenez.
If Greg takes over in any capacity I’ll be annoyed. He’s a sidebar and provides comic relief, and it should stay that way.
i agree with all that though i wouldn't necessarily call shivs power play the biggest of the series. roman made a big powerplay with mencken. kendall's made a half dozen from season 1 through whistleblower. none of them have worked. shivs doesn't seem well set up enough to work either. im pretty sure she's just the next to strike out because matsson has her dick in his hands but she has nothing on him. getting him to put out the numbers was probably a mistake, if she had that in her pocket she'd at least have some leverage on him.
kendall seems gearing up for a final power play and since he's had the most power plays maybe this is the time it finally works out.
it's believable that matsson would prefer someone like him to someone like shiv once her usefulness is outlived. and shiv getting shiv'd by tom once again would be a good twist.
Of course she's pregnant. She was drinking champaign to torture Tom, like "look at me harming your child that you questioned even existed."
I took it to mean she didn't care about the baby and his reaction was I don't either.
Didn't her mother look at her and notice right away she was pregnant?
As for the idiot siblings, had they just worked together and subjugated their egos, they could’ve done a good job running the company. Their strengths complement each other and cover their weaknesses. Kendall knows the business backwards and forwards. But he’s terrible with people and prone to emotional decisions. Roman is great in dealing with people in power (transactional relationships) and is unemotional about business. But he’s highly abusive of underlings without generating the same loyalty or fear Logan did. That’s not even mentioning his harassment of Gerri. Shiv’s business morals wouldn’t allow ATN to be so shitty or what happened with the cruise scandal. But she isn’t nearly as smart as she thinks she is. They’ll be richer after the sale, but they’ll be stuck with Pierce. Maybe they make it happen there.
he knows Kendall is responsible for the dead waiter
he knows (and has proof) Tom instructed him to destroy the documents about the cruise ship sexual assaults
he knows Shiv is aware of the inflated Gojo subscriber numbers
he knows Mattson falsified the numbers, or it was done on his watch
Am I missing anything?
Roman basically took himself out.
Greg has a lot of wine bottles he can wield next week.
Commissioner Valchek 2.0 if this happens
As for the idiot siblings, had they just worked together and subjugated their egos, they could’ve done a good job running the company. Their strengths complement each other and cover their weaknesses. Kendall knows the business backwards and forwards. But he’s terrible with people and prone to emotional decisions. Roman is great in dealing with people in power (transactional relationships) and is unemotional about business. But he’s highly abusive of underlings without generating the same loyalty or fear Logan did. That’s not even mentioning his harassment of Gerri. Shiv’s business morals wouldn’t allow ATN to be so shitty or what happened with the cruise scandal. But she isn’t nearly as smart as she thinks she is. They’ll be richer after the sale, but they’ll be stuck with Pierce. Maybe they make it happen there.
I also expect that Kendall ordering the "deep faking" Logan's video about the retirement home to come out, because that is securities fraud 101 (lying to investors about profit projections).
*As someone who has been involved in plenty of securities fraud and adjacent litigations, the idea that the market would just disregard it because of the ongoing political turmoil is laughable. There are always plaintiffs' lawyers looking to get rich and SEC/DOJ lawyers looking to make a name for themselves. I understand we have to suspend disbelief a bit because it's a show -- such as with Logan's written statement, which as a lawyer I knew was completely meaningless -- but I would like a little consistency.
Mencken backpedaling on nixing the Gojo deal was pure gold in this episode...but I hope Mencken loses the presidency as expected.
What a great show, I am sad to see it end!
i think this is a really good take.
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Is Shiv pregnant or not? I didn't catch that repartee with Tom towards the end. I know Shiv said she was pregnant to her brothers, but then she was drinking alcohol with Tom and Tom gave her a look like, "Uhhh, why are you drinking when you just told me you're pregnant?" But I didn't really understand the back-and-forth between them as it pertains to the pregnancy.
Didn't her mother look at her and notice right away she was pregnant?
Yep. She was just waiting for Shiv to come out and say it.
From episode 1, Kendall never showed any morals, he was always just like Logan, but he was incompetent. Kendall only got a case of morals because Logan wouldn't name him successor and he thought he could force him out.
From episode 1, Kendall never showed any morals, he was always just like Logan, but he was incompetent. Kendall only got a case of morals because Logan wouldn't name him successor and he thought he could force him out.
He may have always been a piece of shit in reality, but in his mind he (like the rest of us) always saw himself as "a good guy." That's what Shiv kept playing too during the election episode, telling him that he's a "good guy." Probably the most interesting line of the entire series is when Kendall responds by saying, "I don't know, maybe the poison drips through."
he acknowledges he's not a good father, but he's also responsible the death of a person and just basically got on with his life like a sociopath. that is not "good person" behavior.
I think he realized that at the end of the episode. His wife took his kids, his sister has backstabbed him, and Roman is only looking out for his best interest. He’s going all in and taking the throne IMO.
he acknowledges he's not a good father, but he's also responsible the death of a person and just basically got on with his life like a sociopath. that is not "good person" behavior.
I may be remembering it wrong but he was in a speeding car that swerved to avoid a deer and he actually went back in twice to try and save the guy. The dishonorable thing was the coverup but the guy was dead already.
That being said I have no idea what will happen next week except I don't think it will be Roman and I don't think Roman wants it to be Roman anymore.
he knows Kendall is responsible for the dead waiter
he knows (and has proof) Tom instructed him to destroy the documents about the cruise ship sexual assaults
he knows Shiv is aware of the inflated Gojo subscriber numbers
he knows Mattson falsified the numbers, or it was done on his watch
Am I missing anything?
Roman basically took himself out.
Greg has a lot of wine bottles he can wield next week.
It’s certainly possible that the show goes scorched earth and EVERYONE is fucked. That would include Matsson not getting the company and Mencken not becoming President. In that scenario, maybe Gerri becomes interim CEO. Regardless of what happens, I think Greg is going to come out smelling like a rose.
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about Kendall is he has a shred of self awareness.
he acknowledges he's not a good father, but he's also responsible the death of a person and just basically got on with his life like a sociopath. that is not "good person" behavior.
I may be remembering it wrong but he was in a speeding car that swerved to avoid a deer and he actually went back in twice to try and save the guy. The dishonorable thing was the coverup but the guy was dead already.
That being said I have no idea what will happen next week except I don't think it will be Roman and I don't think Roman wants it to be Roman anymore.
he was drunk and on drugs, if that was real life, do you think that only the coverup is dishonorable?
he was drunk and on drugs, if that was real life, do you think that only the coverup is dishonorable?
But the other guy was there of his own volition. Kendall didn’t kidnap the guy. However, there’s no avoiding the complete stain that was the coverup and Logan taking Kendall to the guy’s family’s house to lie through their teeth.
lol, I don't know. Logan isn't Genghis Khan, but they're all morally bankrupt, mostly (only) just care about money and power, and finding the person with a hint of a conscious IMO doesn't really make them much better than the others.
From episode 1, Kendall never showed any morals, he was always just like Logan, but he was incompetent. Kendall only got a case of morals because Logan wouldn't name him successor and he thought he could force him out.
this post made me think of this part of ewan's eulogy:
i think the trying is the difference - kendall has always been conflicted and wanted to try to do what he perceives as the right thing. last week we saw him do it twice when he put his cards on the table with shiv and when he was conflicted trying to hold off roman.
is kendall now blowing through that orange light with his war dogs colin and hugo at his side?
to uconn's point if he does the kids are probably gone forever.
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In comment 16121049 pjcas18 said:
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about Kendall is he has a shred of self awareness.
he acknowledges he's not a good father, but he's also responsible the death of a person and just basically got on with his life like a sociopath. that is not "good person" behavior.
I may be remembering it wrong but he was in a speeding car that swerved to avoid a deer and he actually went back in twice to try and save the guy. The dishonorable thing was the coverup but the guy was dead already.
That being said I have no idea what will happen next week except I don't think it will be Roman and I don't think Roman wants it to be Roman anymore.
he was drunk and on drugs, if that was real life, do you think that only the coverup is dishonorable?
1. It was def dishonorable and under US law manslaughter of some sort.
2. This arc mirrors something that happened in real life, but I will follow Eric's rules and say no more.
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In comment 16121062 oghwga said:
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In comment 16121049 pjcas18 said:
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about Kendall is he has a shred of self awareness.
he acknowledges he's not a good father, but he's also responsible the death of a person and just basically got on with his life like a sociopath. that is not "good person" behavior.
I may be remembering it wrong but he was in a speeding car that swerved to avoid a deer and he actually went back in twice to try and save the guy. The dishonorable thing was the coverup but the guy was dead already.
That being said I have no idea what will happen next week except I don't think it will be Roman and I don't think Roman wants it to be Roman anymore.
he was drunk and on drugs, if that was real life, do you think that only the coverup is dishonorable?
1. It was def dishonorable and under US law manslaughter of some sort.
2. This arc mirrors something that happened in real life, but I will follow Eric's rules and say no more.
Which one of Eric’s rules prevents you from telling us the real life event that inspired that part of a tv show?
It’s not political talk to say that event inspired the series.
Her scenes are distracting.
It’s not political talk to say that event inspired the series.
Yes. I've been not making the obvious connection to ATN, either. Even though it's beyond obvious what the references are, I've had people ruin completely innocuous threads for even mentioning politicians. There was one recently (I'm blanking on the topic) with really good discussion where a few clowns felt the need to roll through and start getting political. It's like a mosquito light for some people.
Anyway, if art mirrors life, Kendall could get away with it, which was my point that I should have stated.
I agree with this take. This is my prediction
Is this a big red herring, re-introducing him in the penultimate episode or is it hugely significant?
If Mencken could insist, it would make sense for him to insist on Kendall as CEO, but he can't insist.
I don't believe Madsen fears Shiv, rather he genuinely sees her as in harmony more or less with his own outlook.
Roman is not a player anymore, not after his performance at the funeral, and yes, it reallly does go like that when you blub in front of all the powerful and influential. Kendal understands that.
Tom is a possibility if Madsen wants someone to bend over, which is plausible.
If you have Tom, why would you choose Greg instead? I just don't see it.
Is this a big red herring, re-introducing him in the penultimate episode or is it hugely significant?
If Mencken could insist, it would make sense for him to insist on Kendall as CEO, but he can't insist.
I don't believe Madsen fears Shiv, rather he genuinely sees her as in harmony more or less with his own outlook.
Roman is not a player anymore, not after his performance at the funeral, and yes, it reallly does go like that when you blub in front of all the powerful and influential. Kendal understands that.
Tom is a possibility if Madsen wants someone to bend over, which is plausible.
If you have Tom, why would you choose Greg instead? I just don't see it.
The security guy you are referring to is Colin, who has been in the series entirely as Logan’s head of security and muscle.
If not, what was the call about?
If so, it ends all speculation of who will be CEO. Shiv if the deal goes through. Kendall if the deal is blocked.
What remains is how everything blows up. Does Mencken block the deal, even though the election is still contested, and he's months away from taking office? Is Kendall blackmailed into backing down/forced to accept the deal? Roman is disgraced, so Kendall is all that's left.
If not, what was the call about?
If so, it ends all speculation of who will be CEO. Shiv if the deal goes through. Kendall if the deal is blocked.
What remains is how everything blows up. Does Mencken block the deal, even though the election is still contested, and he's months away from taking office? Is Kendall blackmailed into backing down/forced to accept the deal? Roman is disgraced, so Kendall is all that's left.
I’ve learned nobody on this show can be trusted at their word.
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from Mattson to Shiv pretty much seal the deal that they agreed to Shiv as CEO if the deal goes through?
If not, what was the call about?
If so, it ends all speculation of who will be CEO. Shiv if the deal goes through. Kendall if the deal is blocked.
What remains is how everything blows up. Does Mencken block the deal, even though the election is still contested, and he's months away from taking office? Is Kendall blackmailed into backing down/forced to accept the deal? Roman is disgraced, so Kendall is all that's left.
I’ve learned nobody on this show can be trusted at their word.
yeah for me that call basically guaranteed it won't end with shiv. if matsson gets the company i think he screws her, or somehow kendall wins, possibly bc shiv realizes that and screws mattson instead.
i think the earlier post in this thread about kendall ultimately choosing between ceo or his family but not both is a great unifying theory of the series. and probably ends with him choosing ceo.
Lol, a Seinfeld ending? Them all in the same jail cell, commiserating about all the people they wronged.
I can see Tom and Greg ending up in a shared jail cell - that would be funny.
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is holding a hand out to, and now I do, he's the security guy from the whole Scottish incident.
Is this a big red herring, re-introducing him in the penultimate episode or is it hugely significant?
If Mencken could insist, it would make sense for him to insist on Kendall as CEO, but he can't insist.
I don't believe Madsen fears Shiv, rather he genuinely sees her as in harmony more or less with his own outlook.
Roman is not a player anymore, not after his performance at the funeral, and yes, it reallly does go like that when you blub in front of all the powerful and influential. Kendal understands that.
Tom is a possibility if Madsen wants someone to bend over, which is plausible.
If you have Tom, why would you choose Greg instead? I just don't see it.
The security guy you are referring to is Colin, who has been in the series entirely as Logan’s head of security and muscle.
I know that's who he is, but have we heard from him during this season?
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In comment 16122609 Gruber said:
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is holding a hand out to, and now I do, he's the security guy from the whole Scottish incident.
Is this a big red herring, re-introducing him in the penultimate episode or is it hugely significant?
If Mencken could insist, it would make sense for him to insist on Kendall as CEO, but he can't insist.
I don't believe Madsen fears Shiv, rather he genuinely sees her as in harmony more or less with his own outlook.
Roman is not a player anymore, not after his performance at the funeral, and yes, it reallly does go like that when you blub in front of all the powerful and influential. Kendal understands that.
Tom is a possibility if Madsen wants someone to bend over, which is plausible.
If you have Tom, why would you choose Greg instead? I just don't see it.
The security guy you are referring to is Colin, who has been in the series entirely as Logan’s head of security and muscle.
I know that's who he is, but have we heard from him during this season?
Yes, he was with Logan at diner having the weird conversation about life and death.
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from Mattson to Shiv pretty much seal the deal that they agreed to Shiv as CEO if the deal goes through?
If not, what was the call about?
If so, it ends all speculation of who will be CEO. Shiv if the deal goes through. Kendall if the deal is blocked.
What remains is how everything blows up. Does Mencken block the deal, even though the election is still contested, and he's months away from taking office? Is Kendall blackmailed into backing down/forced to accept the deal? Roman is disgraced, so Kendall is all that's left.
I’ve learned nobody on this show can be trusted at their word.
Exactly.
Also, is this definitely the final season? Or might they leave us with the possibility of "to be continued."
Disappointed not to see more of Stewy.
Is Kendal going to get away with what happened in Scotland?
Earlier in the season Kendall said it best when Mattson tried to buy them out "we are already rich"--
not sure I understand why a billionaire would sell to be then appointed CEO when they can have that in the first place. I mean if you are talking dollars and cents because of Mattson's offer it might make financial sense, but when you are billionaire who the heck cares if you really want to run things. The whole Shiv wins thing would be absurd. Also, her selling herself to Mattson was a complete and utter embarrassment.
Roman can't be the leader after that meltdown and Kendall is just too damaged to be the leader.
I don't really know where they can go with his ending other than to see all the kids screwed and not succeed Logan. But the worst outcome would be Shiv's because her plan is to basically be an employee after cashing out. What kind of succession is that and how long will that last.
Ok, but she still serves at Mattson's will. The point of being a billionaire is power. She cedes all power for excess money that she does not need. It makes almost no sense. If she wants to run the company, she shouldn't sell. He can fire her in two minutes alas the whole her selling herself as the CEO to him, even to the point of saying she would spit out her baby in 36 hours.
Not sure what victory that would be other than spite. Fine, she one ups her brothers but that is not a victory at all--to run the empire you dad had without owning that empire. At least Kendall and Roman's plan to keep the empire makes sense. Shiv's makes absolutely no sense whatsoever other than spite. So we watched four seasons, so they can sell off the empire and have the daughter become an at-will employee of another guy just so she can shove it to her brothers. Seems like a complete and utter waste of time.
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and her brother don’t, which has been the entirety of the show plot. Not sure what language would exist in her contract to keep herself from being fired immediately but that seems like a plausible scenario. But I don’t think that matters - if Shivs plan works she wins and the brother lose which is the point of the show.
Not sure what victory that would be other than spite. Fine, she one ups her brothers but that is not a victory at all--to run the empire you dad had without owning that empire. At least Kendall and Roman's plan to keep the empire makes sense. Shiv's makes absolutely no sense whatsoever other than spite. So we watched four seasons, so they can sell off the empire and have the daughter become an at-will employee of another guy just so she can shove it to her brothers. Seems like a complete and utter waste of time.
I agree thats the shittiest outcome for the family but from Shiv's side, once they excluded her from the CEO role, what play did she really have? You could see them already squeezing her out. Or are you just saying the writing needed to take her in another direction. (And I dont think Shiv gets the nod in any case)
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as a non billionaire. Shiv wants power, plain and simple. She wants to be the one running her fathers company. She cares, a lot.
Ok, but she still serves at Mattson's will. The point of being a billionaire is power. She cedes all power for excess money that she does not need. It makes almost no sense. If she wants to run the company, she shouldn't sell. He can fire her in two minutes alas the whole her selling herself as the CEO to him, even to the point of saying she would spit out her baby in 36 hours.
After seeing the episode a second time, I am convinced Shiv will not be the CEO of Waystar. One of two things will happen. Either Mattson buys out the company and appoints someone he trust as CEO (to appease Mencken) or Kendall will win out and be named the CEO. For all of Kendall’s faults he has shown tremendous growth this season, especially now that he is out of his father’s shadow.
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In comment 16122933 UConn4523 said:
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and her brother don’t, which has been the entirety of the show plot. Not sure what language would exist in her contract to keep herself from being fired immediately but that seems like a plausible scenario. But I don’t think that matters - if Shivs plan works she wins and the brother lose which is the point of the show.
Not sure what victory that would be other than spite. Fine, she one ups her brothers but that is not a victory at all--to run the empire you dad had without owning that empire. At least Kendall and Roman's plan to keep the empire makes sense. Shiv's makes absolutely no sense whatsoever other than spite. So we watched four seasons, so they can sell off the empire and have the daughter become an at-will employee of another guy just so she can shove it to her brothers. Seems like a complete and utter waste of time.
I agree thats the shittiest outcome for the family but from Shiv's side, once they excluded her from the CEO role, what play did she really have? You could see them already squeezing her out. Or are you just saying the writing needed to take her in another direction. (And I dont think Shiv gets the nod in any case)
Yes, I am arguing that they had to take Shiv in another direction. Imo, ending the show (if Shiv wins) by selling the empire where she becomes the employee would not really be a succession to me of controlling the empire. She, in effect, would have no control as you saw her having to resort to begging Mattson to make her CEO. Maybe if she partnered up with Mattson in a financial way to purchase it etc, it would make more sense, but her in the end being an employee of Mattson's company with what I would guess is some stock from the sale, is not a satisfying ending imo.
She is the successor, it's what they've all been after since episode 1 and basically the title of the show. You can always say, "they're all billionaires, how do they lose?" but that's not how they think. They crave the power. If it's just money they're basically Connor, who everyone views as a loser.
If Shiv really has the chops her old man did, I think she would do something like be named CEO and then have Matsson taken away in cuffs for fraud, etc. for cooking the books. She warned him at least 3 times to go public with the "incorrect" subscriber counts and then she would become global CEO.
I'm curious on how they do this episode. There is a lot to resolve. The election, its impact on the deal, whether the deal goes through, and who is CEO. And then maybe dealing with the estate?
If I had to guess (and this is a low confident bet), there is something in the will that throws a wrench into a lot of this.
Maybe the fraud Kendall/Roman committed doctoring Logan's voice comes into play.
I have not really loved this season but did like the last episode. Curious on how they end things.
She is the successor, it's what they've all been after since episode 1 and basically the title of the show. You can always say, "they're all billionaires, how do they lose?" but that's not how they think. They crave the power. If it's just money they're basically Connor, who everyone views as a loser.
If Shiv really has the chops her old man did, I think she would do something like be named CEO and then have Matsson taken away in cuffs for fraud, etc. for cooking the books. She warned him at least 3 times to go public with the "incorrect" subscriber counts and then she would become global CEO.
I would argue Shiv loses because she isn’t in control of her own destiny. That isn’t succession in my mind. Kendall and Roman can lose big time also because they want the company. Kendall said it best to Mattson “we are already rich”—they want control that keeps them owning the company. Shiv’s control is a lot more fragile and can be changed at the whim of anotjrt eccentric billionaire. That isn’t succeeding Logan to the throne. At best, that is being a caretaker of the throne until the new eccentric billionaire changes his mind
He faced a vote of no confidence. He "won" but how did he control his destiny?
Plus he was on the verge of losing the company when the stock plummeted (after his stroke?)
no one ever truly controls their destiny in business like this.
He faced a vote of no confidence. He "won" but how did he control his destiny?
Plus he was on the verge of losing the company when the stock plummeted (after his stroke?)
no one ever truly controls their destiny in business like this.
I think we have all stated our points, but Logan needed his entire family to rebel to lose power (which almost happened) until Tom alerted him and he could get his ex-wife (who btw is an amazing character he’d seen with Kerry and Marcia stole Sunday night imo) on his side. Shiv’s power would be a lot more flimsy and would basically have no moves if one person wanted her out
All the family showed they were willing to backstab the others, including Connor (although his backstab was more of the knucklehead, clueless, blunder-the refusal to accept a diplomatic post after asking for one, and having Roman set one up - than intentional malice). Shiv's no better, or worse, than the others.