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Barnwell-NYG has 4th worse offseason in NFL

Essex : 10:29 am
it is behind a paywall, but he basically accuses the Giants of getting high on their own supply.

Too much asset allocation to Barklwy and Jones prevented them from fixing the 29th ranked DVOA defense. Although he criticizes us for not getting a number one receiver, he thinks we got more playmakers so he gives us some credit there.


I link but only ESPN subscribers can read it.
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...  
christian : 1:52 pm : link
If Jones fizzles, they can designate him a post-June 1 cut, and account for the remainder of his signing bonus in 2 installments of 9M.

In this downside scenario, they pay him 82M for two years and walk away. This isn't a tragedy, it's a calculated risk.

I thought Jones would get closer to 75M guaranteed. But Team Jones gave 2 effectively non-guaranteed year in exchange for more upfront cash.

I still think the Giants won, because there is no new guaranteed money on years 3 & 4.
RE: No it isn’t  
Essex : 2:03 pm : link
In comment 16123165 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
and it’s only an overpay if he doesn’t perform and if he underperforms we have an out. And if the QB being championship worthy is the qualifier then there’s a whole bunch of teams in QB hell (an overused term IMO).

What teams are in QB hell? Not many IMO. The years of locking yourself into a Matt Ryan for many years seem to be over.

QB hell is when the downside and the upsides are both losing props. You can definitely make the argument that was the case with our decision with Jones in that we did not have a good decision to make, especially for the near future. I wouldn't make that argument, but it is definitely a supportable argument. The only caveat is that we can extricate after two years which is not such a bad thing and takes hell out of the equation.
I May be in the Minority  
But I'm fine if the Giants max out as a 10-7-type team with 2nd round exits and then move on from Jones after 3 or 4 years.

I would like this franchise and regime to prove they can string together a couple of winning seasons before we even talk Superbowl. Historically, the Giants have been so boom or bust, and I think they got suckered into lazy thinking during the last boom period (ie just get Eli into the playoffs and he'll go on a run).

It would be great if Schoen/Daboll could construct a long, sustainable team identity that can survive changes in personnel, adapt as the league changes, and stay competitive and avoid lengthy rebuild periods. Basically what the Chiefs and Eagles have done for the past decade.
I'm pretty sure Barnwell is a Giants fan  
BlackLight : 2:08 pm : link
but I've been reading him for years, and I've always thought he was too quick to err on the side of the pessimism with his team analysis in order to appear "objective."

Personally, I do worry that fans are overrating the team a bit. A fair amount of good luck went into last year's playoff run. This year's team is unquestionably better, but we can't count on catching all the same breaks again, so the roster improvements might not necessarily show up in the win/loss column or in a repeat playoff berth.

RE: RE: RE: …  
Eric on Li : 2:09 pm : link
In comment 16123049 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16123007 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


in a year where there were some decent ILB's at a lower price point and their own reliable starter i think there's a fair argument that was the safer play just by virtue of 2 swings vs 1. doesn't mean that will end up correct. if okereke has a pierce/boley type 3-5 year run here he will probably be worth it.



I liked the work Brown did on the pro scouting side last year, so I trust that the reason they went over slot on Okereke is because they project a higher ceiling. But these are the moves that separate the men from the boys on team construction.


i dont know how to parse what was done by brown or anyone else but i agree, going from bad to good is different and more difficult than going from good to great.

we have good reasons to be optimistic with this group but getting service-ableness out of richie james and feliciano and ward is one thing. getting real impact out of okereke and someone like Campbell this year has a different set of challenges more similar to what we saw with glowinski, who was probably their most disappointing move relative to cost and expectations last year. someone really likes ex-colts.
Fine  
I believe a lot more in Schoen/Daboll than Bill Barnwell.
RE: I've seen numerous critiques of the Jones deal  
kickoff : 2:31 pm : link
In comment 16123082 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
just completely disregarded here. Arguments around it being a good deal "if they are right" about Jones, completely disregards sound risk management and asset valuation principles.

There wasn't a good argument to be made for Jones to be paid more than Geno.

There wasn't a good argument to be made they he should get a cent more than $69M guaranteed for the first two years, the cost of 2, 1 year option franchise tags. Which is really what it is for and the logical approach for a player with so much risk involved. With 1 above average season and the 2 being poor at the most expensive position. Jones not taking a step forward makes it difficult for us to win for 3 seasons. ($20M dead money is an out but it isn't really a winning formula)

The central arguments around not giving Jones the franchise tag seemed to be around offending him. And I can't understand what is so offensive about getting a 1 year contract as a top 5 player while never sniffing that level of production.

On the flip side there seemed to be no concern about franchising Barkley has played at an all-pro level.

The issue isn't as much about the Jones deal as much as it is about Jones strong arming the Giants, preying on his clear knowledge of their desperation to stay out of the cellar. The agent firing said a lot about that. And the level of leverage he had and the way he played it was reminiscent of the negotiating ineptitude of Leo Williams.

When Barkley and Lawrence announced their holdouts I googled NFL player holdouts 2023 and just found an article on those 2 and 2022 holdouts. This is a concerning development.

Benchmarking to the market value of something is not just about that contract, it could very easily ripple out. Okereke was an overpay as well (I do like the player though).

There is nothing not to like about JS and BD. But for the life of me I don't know how people around here don't want to act like Joe Judge was the savior after 6-10, McAdoo as well after almost as strong of a 1st season as BD.

And this same leadership group in a flash went from a Superbowl team to a laughing stock when TC left the building.

Under DG and a lot of the same leaders (and to the best of my knowledge largely the same contract/cap experts) we heard the cap doesn't matter, one deal isn't going to break you etc.

Last season was fantastic. I would love to see it continue but I don't know how everyone can give so much benefit of the doubt so quickly to the Mara leadership group that has just been so completely inept for so long.

The Jones/Barkley handling is concerning. The guy producing elite numbers for you, you are grinding in the negotiation and talking about positional value. Well great, positional value is about benchmarking pay. And I don't know how two guys on the same offense, the one whose performance is objectively better relative to his peers you are having a clearly sharp edged conversation around value while the other guy you are making excuses for based on the same talent around him and ignoring clear negotiating benchmarks.

It took a truly extraordinary amount of failure for Mara to even consider letting in outside opinions but all of the same brain trust that torpedoed this franchise is still in that building. If Jones takes a step forward, everyone including me will be very pleased. If he doesn't, no more excuses about the talent around him and the fans should be putting heat on the Maras not JS if we don't want to end up right back in the gutter again.

I'm 74 yrs old and been a Giant fan for 60 yrs. I go back to Charley Connerly and YA Title, seen all the Qbs between them and DJ. I think this kid has the ability to be the best of all. Yes, even Eli. I know the argument will be Eli won 2 SBs and I say give DJ a decent team and he will do the same, he's already done wonders with an inferior team. I know I'm an old fart and no expert, but this is what I see. This kid has a world of talent.
I don't know about 4th worst  
ghost718 : 2:34 pm : link
but it was reminiscent of previous off seasons.

Address 1 or 2 positions via trade or free agency(usually a linebacker),and spend the remaining money in the dollar bin,add a few draft picks.Than the season comes and lean heavily on the quarterback
RE: Fine  
Del Shofner : 2:42 pm : link
In comment 16123181 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
I believe a lot more in Schoen/Daboll than Bill Barnwell.


+1.

We had a very good offseason IMO. How that will translate into wins remains to be seen, for reasons others have said above. But we improved markedly at DL, ILB, WR/TE and C, all problem areas last year.
RE: RE: No it isn’t  
UConn4523 : 2:55 pm : link
In comment 16123172 Essex said:
Quote:
In comment 16123165 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


and it’s only an overpay if he doesn’t perform and if he underperforms we have an out. And if the QB being championship worthy is the qualifier then there’s a whole bunch of teams in QB hell (an overused term IMO).

What teams are in QB hell? Not many IMO. The years of locking yourself into a Matt Ryan for many years seem to be over.


QB hell is when the downside and the upsides are both losing props. You can definitely make the argument that was the case with our decision with Jones in that we did not have a good decision to make, especially for the near future. I wouldn't make that argument, but it is definitely a supportable argument. The only caveat is that we can extricate after two years which is not such a bad thing and takes hell out of the equation.


This makes no sense to me, sorry. How is the upside a losing proposition?
The upside is a losing proposition  
Essex : 3:10 pm : link
when you pay a QB a second contract to be competitive, at best, but is not a serious threat to win a title. Jones has been competitive at best--many think that even if he hits his upside he will never be a qb that can contend for titles. How does that not make any sense. If the ceiling on the upside is good, but not good enough and the downside is being completely uncompetitive you have literally stepped into QB hell. This is not a hard concept.
We addressed many of our issues from last season.  
Ira : 3:10 pm : link
1) Bobby O and the dl we signed will improve our awful run defense.
2) Drafting Banks in the 1st round should help our pass d by the end of the season.
3) JMS will make our running attack better.
4) Waller, Campbell and Hyatt will help our intermediate and deep passing attack.

It was a good off-season for the Giants.
RE: RE: I've seen numerous critiques of the Jones deal  
NoGainDayne : 3:21 pm : link
In comment 16123186 kickoff said:
Quote:
In comment 16123082 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:
I'm 74 yrs old and been a Giant fan for 60 yrs. I go back to Charley Connerly and YA Title, seen all the Qbs between them and DJ. I think this kid has the ability to be the best of all. Yes, even Eli. I know the argument will be Eli won 2 SBs and I say give DJ a decent team and he will do the same, he's already done wonders with an inferior team. I know I'm an old fart and no expert, but this is what I see. This kid has a world of talent.


I don't understand this at all. Just the single data point of that Eagles game, the most important game of his career that horrible game where he showed a lot of the same decision making problems that have plagued him is highly concerning.

After his rookie year I never saw Eli look that bad especially in such a high stakes game against a rival. Eli had some low talent receiver groups around him.

It feels very much that both fans and the Giants consistently describe DJ as better than his production, consistently, always. That has been the only consistent thing in his career. When his production moves up the descriptions and expectations don't match but consistently move far beyond what he has consistently demonstrated on the field.

It feels like it stems from so much losing and wanting to see things as better than they are. Nobody ever did this with Eli and he showed way more. The conversation always was around him pretty much being fairly evaluated or even undervalued.

It feels pretty insulting to Eli to even put DJ in the same conversation as him.
A couple things here  
GiantsFan84 : 3:38 pm : link
unrelated to the post but I do believe barnwell is a giants fan

He’s way off base here. This team had a lot of holes going into this off-season. There is a reason Daboll won coach of the year. He took a team w no business making the playoffs to the second round of the playoffs. Knowing this they weren’t going to be able to fix every hole on the roster. Also at some point players drafted last year need to play and develop (Flott, Neal, Ezeudu, Beavers)

This team now has a solid d-line rotation. Yea they are one edge player short and they are thin there but they can’t solve every hole w finite resources. Linebacker is significantly improved w Okereke and Beavers coming back. And playing against the Eagles MLB becomes a premium position. CB is better short term and long term w Banks. Is it perfect? No. But they also need to see what they have in Flott and Robinson. Safety needs work next to McKinney but once again they weren’t going to fix everything and Love was a JAG in my eyes.

Offensive line is better w JMS and they need improvement from young players already on the roster. RB is deeper but status quo. Jones is back so status quo. This team now has like 9 NFL quality receivers when last year they had 1 to start the year. Yes they need a #1 but they aren’t easy to come by and nobody got a new #1 this year. And they added the second best receiving tight end in the league.

It’s not a perfect team. But they weren’t going to be w all their holes. But they had a very good off-season.
RE: The upside is a losing proposition  
UConn4523 : 4:07 pm : link
In comment 16123206 Essex said:
Quote:
when you pay a QB a second contract to be competitive, at best, but is not a serious threat to win a title. Jones has been competitive at best--many think that even if he hits his upside he will never be a qb that can contend for titles. How does that not make any sense. If the ceiling on the upside is good, but not good enough and the downside is being completely uncompetitive you have literally stepped into QB hell. This is not a hard concept.


Because it’s just saying things and is ultimately subjective. I don’t care what people think his ceiling is, I care what Daboll thinks his ceiling is.
RE: RE: RE: I've seen numerous critiques of the Jones deal  
kickoff : 4:48 pm : link
In comment 16123212 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
In comment 16123186 kickoff said:


Quote:


In comment 16123082 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:
I'm 74 yrs old and been a Giant fan for 60 yrs. I go back to Charley Connerly and YA Title, seen all the Qbs between them and DJ. I think this kid has the ability to be the best of all. Yes, even Eli. I know the argument will be Eli won 2 SBs and I say give DJ a decent team and he will do the same, he's already done wonders with an inferior team. I know I'm an old fart and no expert, but this is what I see. This kid has a world of talent.



I don't understand this at all. Just the single data point of that Eagles game, the most important game of his career that horrible game where he showed a lot of the same decision making problems that have plagued him is highly concerning.

After his rookie year I never saw Eli look that bad especially in such a high stakes game against a rival. Eli had some low talent receiver groups around him.

It feels very much that both fans and the Giants consistently describe DJ as better than his production, consistently, always. That has been the only consistent thing in his career. When his production moves up the descriptions and expectations don't match but consistently move far beyond what he has consistently demonstrated on the field.

It feels like it stems from so much losing and wanting to see things as better than they are. Nobody ever did this with Eli and he showed way more. The conversation always was around him pretty much being fairly evaluated or even undervalued.

It feels pretty insulting to Eli to even put DJ in the same conversation as him.

Using the Eagle game as evaluation of DJ is misleading and unfair. Their talent is so much greater than ours it was a mismatch at every single position. We had all pros in that game that were overmatched, does that mean they're no good, did receivers get open, did the oline play well,no. No one did. To expect DJ to overcome such domination by the Eagles is foolish.
RE: RE: RE: I've seen numerous critiques of the Jones deal  
BlackLight : 4:49 pm : link
In comment 16123212 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
In comment 16123186 kickoff said:


Quote:


In comment 16123082 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:
I'm 74 yrs old and been a Giant fan for 60 yrs. I go back to Charley Connerly and YA Title, seen all the Qbs between them and DJ. I think this kid has the ability to be the best of all. Yes, even Eli. I know the argument will be Eli won 2 SBs and I say give DJ a decent team and he will do the same, he's already done wonders with an inferior team. I know I'm an old fart and no expert, but this is what I see. This kid has a world of talent.



I don't understand this at all. Just the single data point of that Eagles game, the most important game of his career that horrible game where he showed a lot of the same decision making problems that have plagued him is highly concerning.

After his rookie year I never saw Eli look that bad especially in such a high stakes game against a rival. Eli had some low talent receiver groups around him.

It feels very much that both fans and the Giants consistently describe DJ as better than his production, consistently, always. That has been the only consistent thing in his career. When his production moves up the descriptions and expectations don't match but consistently move far beyond what he has consistently demonstrated on the field.

It feels like it stems from so much losing and wanting to see things as better than they are. Nobody ever did this with Eli and he showed way more. The conversation always was around him pretty much being fairly evaluated or even undervalued.

It feels pretty insulting to Eli to even put DJ in the same conversation as him.


All I know is that until Eli won his first Super Bowl, I wasn't convinced that he would ever be "The Guy." Something about the eye test wasn't working for me. But then he did win one, and the facts became impossible to ignore.

I don't suffer from the same lack of confidence in DJ. Something about the way the guy showed up last season makes it seem undeniable that he's going to win a Super Bowl someday, provided he gets the right people around him. And I think he will.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I've seen numerous critiques of the Jones deal  
bigblue5611 : 4:52 pm : link
In comment 16123246 kickoff said:
Quote:
In comment 16123212 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:


In comment 16123186 kickoff said:


Quote:


In comment 16123082 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:
I'm 74 yrs old and been a Giant fan for 60 yrs. I go back to Charley Connerly and YA Title, seen all the Qbs between them and DJ. I think this kid has the ability to be the best of all. Yes, even Eli. I know the argument will be Eli won 2 SBs and I say give DJ a decent team and he will do the same, he's already done wonders with an inferior team. I know I'm an old fart and no expert, but this is what I see. This kid has a world of talent.



I don't understand this at all. Just the single data point of that Eagles game, the most important game of his career that horrible game where he showed a lot of the same decision making problems that have plagued him is highly concerning.

After his rookie year I never saw Eli look that bad especially in such a high stakes game against a rival. Eli had some low talent receiver groups around him.

It feels very much that both fans and the Giants consistently describe DJ as better than his production, consistently, always. That has been the only consistent thing in his career. When his production moves up the descriptions and expectations don't match but consistently move far beyond what he has consistently demonstrated on the field.

It feels like it stems from so much losing and wanting to see things as better than they are. Nobody ever did this with Eli and he showed way more. The conversation always was around him pretty much being fairly evaluated or even undervalued.

It feels pretty insulting to Eli to even put DJ in the same conversation as him.


Using the Eagle game as evaluation of DJ is misleading and unfair. Their talent is so much greater than ours it was a mismatch at every single position. We had all pros in that game that were overmatched, does that mean they're no good, did receivers get open, did the oline play well,no. No one did. To expect DJ to overcome such domination by the Eagles is foolish.

^this. Also, NGD, did you forget the 4 INT and multiple pick 6 game Eli had against the Vikings in 07? People seem to forget that the majority of fans were ready to run Eli out of town up until the end of the regular season that year despite having made the playoffs previously, leading the team to winning records, etc. He also had a much better supporting cast than DJ has had.
**This is not a knock on Eli and not a direct comparison of the two.
DJ  
kickoff : 4:55 pm : link
I keep hearing about his decision making ability, but Daboll keeps saying he makes good decisions, who's right?
RE: DJ  
BlackLight : 5:01 pm : link
In comment 16123257 kickoff said:
Quote:
I keep hearing about his decision making ability, but Daboll keeps saying he makes good decisions, who's right?


If there's an issue there, it's with him leaving chunk plays on the field when they're there to be had and opting for gaining yards with safer options.

One thing you don't generally see is him winging the ball into traffic or trying to force a throw that isn't there.
Bill Barnwell complains about the Giants even as the parade is going  
down the Canyon of Heroes. He’s the most negative Giants fan I’ve ever read, which is saying a lot on BBI. This isn’t even a comment on the article, which I read. He just never has anything positive to say about the Giants going back to his time on footballoutsiders.com
...  
christian : 7:10 pm : link
I keep saying this, but the Giants leased the car on Jones. And nothing will illustrate this more than when Herbert lands a mega deal this Summer, with plenty of real guaranteed money in the 3rd and probably 4th year.

And I'm not saying Herbert has accomplished more or done more with less. But that's what commitment looks like. It's when a team says you're going to be here 3,4,5 years.

Because when it comes down to it, Jones has accomplished more in one key area than Herbert -- and that's get it done in a playoff game.

That the Giants gave him a contract with a lot of conditions -- makes it not buying the car.
christian.  
It is kinda wild that Jones has more postseason wins than Herbert when one thinks about it considering the love Herbert gets nationally. And I'm a huge Herbert fan & would take him over DJ, but it's worth noting.
...  
christian : 7:32 pm : link
That playoff win probably earned Jones 50M dollars, because without it he's getting tagged. No way he gets 82M guaranteed without a signature win.

Herbert is going to exceed that by a wide margin, and his biggest moment is getting caught from behind in embarrassing fashion.

That says something about management's commitment to Jones. He's got plenty to prove.
RE: we didn't improve the defense?  
joeinpa : 8:11 pm : link
In comment 16123116 djm said:
Quote:
we added a vet star LB and two solid vet DLs. I won't even count the draft as every team drafts but we added 3 legit players for the defense. The Giants were never going to allocate or add a stud star passrusher in FA as they have 2 guys that they like in Ojulari and Thibs and FA passrushers are tough to come by anyway.

If you don't like Jones you're never going to buy in to what the Giants are doing so you might as well start and end every article with that and save everyone the time needed to read the rest.

People won't budge off the Jones nonsense until he wins a super bowl which is dumb stupid ass logic but it is what it is.


You nailed it.
RE: RE: I've seen numerous critiques of the Jones deal  
joeinpa : 8:15 pm : link
In comment 16123186 kickoff said:
Quote:
In comment 16123082 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:


just completely disregarded here. Arguments around it being a good deal "if they are right" about Jones, completely disregards sound risk management and asset valuation principles.

There wasn't a good argument to be made for Jones to be paid more than Geno.

There wasn't a good argument to be made they he should get a cent more than $69M guaranteed for the first two years, the cost of 2, 1 year option franchise tags. Which is really what it is for and the logical approach for a player with so much risk involved. With 1 above average season and the 2 being poor at the most expensive position. Jones not taking a step forward makes it difficult for us to win for 3 seasons. ($20M dead money is an out but it isn't really a winning formula)

The central arguments around not giving Jones the franchise tag seemed to be around offending him. And I can't understand what is so offensive about getting a 1 year contract as a top 5 player while never sniffing that level of production.

On the flip side there seemed to be no concern about franchising Barkley has played at an all-pro level.

The issue isn't as much about the Jones deal as much as it is about Jones strong arming the Giants, preying on his clear knowledge of their desperation to stay out of the cellar. The agent firing said a lot about that. And the level of leverage he had and the way he played it was reminiscent of the negotiating ineptitude of Leo Williams.

When Barkley and Lawrence announced their holdouts I googled NFL player holdouts 2023 and just found an article on those 2 and 2022 holdouts. This is a concerning development.

Benchmarking to the market value of something is not just about that contract, it could very easily ripple out. Okereke was an overpay as well (I do like the player though).

There is nothing not to like about JS and BD. But for the life of me I don't know how people around here don't want to act like Joe Judge was the savior after 6-10, McAdoo as well after almost as strong of a 1st season as BD.

And this same leadership group in a flash went from a Superbowl team to a laughing stock when TC left the building.

Under DG and a lot of the same leaders (and to the best of my knowledge largely the same contract/cap experts) we heard the cap doesn't matter, one deal isn't going to break you etc.

Last season was fantastic. I would love to see it continue but I don't know how everyone can give so much benefit of the doubt so quickly to the Mara leadership group that has just been so completely inept for so long.

The Jones/Barkley handling is concerning. The guy producing elite numbers for you, you are grinding in the negotiation and talking about positional value. Well great, positional value is about benchmarking pay. And I don't know how two guys on the same offense, the one whose performance is objectively better relative to his peers you are having a clearly sharp edged conversation around value while the other guy you are making excuses for based on the same talent around him and ignoring clear negotiating benchmarks.

It took a truly extraordinary amount of failure for Mara to even consider letting in outside opinions but all of the same brain trust that torpedoed this franchise is still in that building. If Jones takes a step forward, everyone including me will be very pleased. If he doesn't, no more excuses about the talent around him and the fans should be putting heat on the Maras not JS if we don't want to end up right back in the gutter again.


I'm 74 yrs old and been a Giant fan for 60 yrs. I go back to Charley Connerly and YA Title, seen all the Qbs between them and DJ. I think this kid has the ability to be the best of all. Yes, even Eli. I know the argument will be Eli won 2 SBs and I say give DJ a decent team and he will do the same, he's already done wonders with an inferior team. I know I'm an old fart and no expert, but this is what I see. This kid has a world of talent.


Kickoff, been a fan since 56. Conerly and Tittle were very good athletes. But I agree, Jones is the best athlete to ever play this position for the Giants
RE: I've seen numerous critiques of the Jones deal  
joeinpa : 8:24 pm : link
In comment 16123082 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
just completely disregarded here. Arguments around it being a good deal "if they are right" about Jones, completely disregards sound risk management and asset valuation principles.

There wasn't a good argument to be made for Jones to be paid more than Geno.

There wasn't a good argument to be made they he should get a cent more than $69M guaranteed for the first two years, the cost of 2, 1 year option franchise tags. Which is really what it is for and the logical approach for a player with so much risk involved. With 1 above average season and the 2 being poor at the most expensive position. Jones not taking a step forward makes it difficult for us to win for 3 seasons. ($20M dead money is an out but it isn't really a winning formula)

The central arguments around not giving Jones the franchise tag seemed to be around offending him. And I can't understand what is so offensive about getting a 1 year contract as a top 5 player while never sniffing that level of production.

On the flip side there seemed to be no concern about franchising Barkley has played at an all-pro level.

The issue isn't as much about the Jones deal as much as it is about Jones strong arming the Giants, preying on his clear knowledge of their desperation to stay out of the cellar. The agent firing said a lot about that. And the level of leverage he had and the way he played it was reminiscent of the negotiating ineptitude of Leo Williams.

When Barkley and Lawrence announced their holdouts I googled NFL player holdouts 2023 and just found an article on those 2 and 2022 holdouts. This is a concerning development.

Benchmarking to the market value of something is not just about that contract, it could very easily ripple out. Okereke was an overpay as well (I do like the player though).

There is nothing not to like about JS and BD. But for the life of me I don't know how people around here don't want to act like Joe Judge was the savior after 6-10, McAdoo as well after almost as strong of a 1st season as BD.

And this same leadership group in a flash went from a Superbowl team to a laughing stock when TC left the building.

Under DG and a lot of the same leaders (and to the best of my knowledge largely the same contract/cap experts) we heard the cap doesn't matter, one deal isn't going to break you etc.

Last season was fantastic. I would love to see it continue but I don't know how everyone can give so much benefit of the doubt so quickly to the Mara leadership group that has just been so completely inept for so long.

The Jones/Barkley handling is concerning. The guy producing elite numbers for you, you are grinding in the negotiation and talking about positional value. Well great, positional value is about benchmarking pay. And I don't know how two guys on the same offense, the one whose performance is objectively better relative to his peers you are having a clearly sharp edged conversation around value while the other guy you are making excuses for based on the same talent around him and ignoring clear negotiating benchmarks.

It took a truly extraordinary amount of failure for Mara to even consider letting in outside opinions but all of the same brain trust that torpedoed this franchise is still in that building. If Jones takes a step forward, everyone including me will be very pleased. If he doesn't, no more excuses about the talent around him and the fans should be putting heat on the Maras not JS if we don't want to end up right back in the gutter again.


Not sure I m correct here, but are you implying the Jones’ contract was more Mara than Schoen.

If so, I just don’t see it that way
RE: DJ  
PatersonPlank : 8:36 pm : link
In comment 16123257 kickoff said:
Quote:
I keep hearing about his decision making ability, but Daboll keeps saying he makes good decisions, who's right?


Obviously BBI is right
Between the Philly guy yesterday  
Joe Beckwith : 9:35 pm : link
and this article today, it’s a dump on DJs contract theme….and essentially the continuation of the Dump on DJ mantra.
Won't click the bait  
thefan : 5/26/2023 12:41 am : link
but we addressed the poor run defense with solid additions to the front 7. Then we drafted a highly athletic CB in round 1. That's his opinion or maybe he wants click, who knows other than we'll know what we have by week 6 if not sooner.
Schoen and Daboll have a roadmap for this team.  
Big Blue Blogger : 5/26/2023 5:17 am : link
Their offseason moves reflect that roadmap, and constitute progress in fulfilling their vision. The vision may be misguided. The roadmap may be poorly conceived. Or both may be fine, and misfortune could still derail the whole enterprise. At least they have a plan, and the plan is plausible if you give them reasonable credit for judging talent and projecting growth.

As for Daniel Jones, the same regime that passed on his fifth-year option was won over sufficiently to invest two more seasons in him. That says a lot to me. He'll never be Patrick Mahomes. He might not even be Jalen Hurts, and comparing him to Eli Manning is pointless because their similarities are superficial (team, height, Cutcliffe, blandness, etc.). Schoen and Daboll think they can win with him. So maybe he just needs to be Daniel Jones.
RE: christian.  
Spiciest Memelord : 5/26/2023 11:19 am : link
In comment 16123296 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
It is kinda wild that Jones has more postseason wins than Herbert when one thinks about it considering the love Herbert gets nationally. And I'm a huge Herbert fan & would take him over DJ, but it's worth noting.


Herbert will probably continue to come up small and embarrass himself in the playoffs, its a Chargers tradition.
Bill Barnwell is a quintessential example  
Mike from SI : 5/26/2023 11:28 am : link
of someone with a 110 IQ who thinks he has a 140 IQ.

Also, it's odd how much he shits on the Giants considering he's a fan. Maybe he's accidentally overcompensating?
 
ryanmkeane : 5/27/2023 3:28 am : link
They won a playoff game, improved the roster in FA and the draft, and didn’t spend a whole lot of money and didn’t make any “crazy” draft picks or seem to really ignore any positions.

Also, the contract for Jones was universally applauded as being not only fair value but not crippling if he doesn’t improve.

I’m not sure you can make Barnwell’s argument unless he’s trying to say that Jones stinks so they should just tear it down. Which, would be idiotic.
 
ryanmkeane : 5/27/2023 3:32 am : link
The Jones argument/talking point is so tiresome. He had a really solid year and looked awesome at times. He made a pretty solid leap and we hope he can make another one.

I cannot believe that people still think he can’t get significantly better, considering the weapons he’s had vs what they have on the roster now.

You could argue that the Giants had the worst group of receivers in all of football and they were a win away from the NFC championship game. You could also argue that Waller is the best weapon Jones has ever had at pass catcher. That’s somewhat hilarious.
 
ryanmkeane : 5/27/2023 3:34 am : link
It took Jones all of about 9 seconds to start throwing deep to Waller in practice. Think about how he’s never had the chance to do that with anyone the first 4 years of his career.
RE: RE: christian.  
Big Blue '56 : 5/27/2023 5:57 am : link
In comment 16123578 Spiciest Memelord said:
Quote:
In comment 16123296 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:


Quote:


It is kinda wild that Jones has more postseason wins than Herbert when one thinks about it considering the love Herbert gets nationally. And I'm a huge Herbert fan & would take him over DJ, but it's worth noting.



Herbert will probably continue to come up small and embarrass himself in the playoffs, its a Chargers tradition.


As will Rodgers with the Jets
RE: …  
christian : 5/27/2023 7:58 am : link
In comment 16123996 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
It took Jones all of about 9 seconds to start throwing deep to Waller in practice. Think about how he’s never had the chance to do that with anyone the first 4 years of his career.


Darius Slayton is a much better deep ball target than Waller.

The Giants ability to stretch the field is much more dependent on Jones not being under constant pressure during real games.
RE: RE: …  
Big Blue '56 : 5/27/2023 8:29 am : link
In comment 16124005 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16123996 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


It took Jones all of about 9 seconds to start throwing deep to Waller in practice. Think about how he’s never had the chance to do that with anyone the first 4 years of his career.



Darius Slayton is a much better deep ball target than Waller.

The Giants ability to stretch the field is much more dependent on Jones not being under constant pressure during real games.


And why I hoped we’d get an actual talented C
 
ryanmkeane : 5/27/2023 10:34 am : link
You guys are overrating Slayton. If the Giants hadn’t beaten the Vikings he’s probably not on the team right now.
I don't think he's completely wrong in his assessment of the roster  
Andy in Halifax : 5/27/2023 10:34 am : link
but the grade seems like a bit harsh. Was he expecting us to fix everything all at once? The roster was pretty awful when he took over.

The Jones debate is tiresome but he's paid like a QB who's about 10-12th best and.. that's pretty fair. But whatever.

Defensively... there was NO WAY we were addressing every single issue on the defensive side of the ball but we added two good run defenders, a 1st round CB and a FA linebacker that really isn't a "bad" contract at all. We need more help on defense but we were never finishing that process in one offseason but I thought JS did a great job addressing key areas (run defense, ILB).

I also find his argument a bit contradictory... criticizes us for running it back but then criticizes us for adding Okereke on defense?
RE: …  
christian : 5/27/2023 11:24 am : link
In comment 16124055 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
You guys are overrating Slayton. If the Giants hadn’t beaten the Vikings he’s probably not on the team right now.


No one is overrating Slayton. You made the silly claim Jones never had a deep threat in practice. For all of his many shortcomings, Slayton is one of the bigger play speed threats in the NFL.
While they don't have a  
Matt M. : 5/27/2023 4:55 pm : link
true #1 WR, they added a few guys who can be play makers. We are much deeper at WR with guys who can line up at multiple positions, plus we added Waller.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/27/2023 6:59 pm : link
We don't have a true #1 WR per se, but Waller is going to be our best receiving target, ala like Gronk was in New England. And no, I'm not comparing Waller to Gronk, but one gets what I'm getting at with the comparsion.
...  
christian : 5/27/2023 7:47 pm : link
Waller gives them the option to switch between 12 and 11 personnel based on the match up. This is what Kafka learned in KC. Waller can play TE and WR.

The goal of this offense is to get the ball to the freest target and turn short air yards into long yards after the catch.

Kafka did a great job the 2nd half of the year scheming guys open in stack and drag looks. There are a couple of great video break downs online about this.

I very much look forward to how the cat and mouse game Kafka will play with Waller and Slayton.
Bradberry  
Lines of Scrimmage : 5/28/2023 7:52 am : link
said they studied what Buffalo did and were prepared in the playoff game resulting in a interception. That short passing game was a gimmick resulting from offensive deficiencies.

Plenty of stuff in the post games in season; "Daboll sees Jones is the problem and not the WR's", "Jones can be replaced with a 2nd/3rd round pick", etc.

Giants added a upper tier pass option. They added a Center in round 2 addressing the the two biggest issues on offense. A few WR's and another RB.

Hopefully enough to stay ahead of the chains with a pretty balanced offense.

Most issues were rooted in the poor OL against the better fronts. Improved skill guys will help in these situations which will happen regardless but hopefully now less often The OL will dictate this imv.
RE: Bradberry  
christian : 5/28/2023 8:13 am : link
In comment 16124239 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
said they studied what Buffalo did and were prepared in the playoff game resulting in a interception. That short passing game was a gimmick resulting from offensive deficiencies.


You have lowest understanding of football of any poster in the history of BBI. We are all the worse off for your contributions.

I'll set you up with an NFL+ account so you can review the short passing game gimmick offense of the Chiefs. You pay specific attention to their intended air yards per attempt, how they stack and free their WRs, and how they move Kelce.

No need to reply. Just take it in.
No need  
Lines of Scrimmage : 5/28/2023 8:29 am : link
to take your points in. You should go back to when I started posting and see how many posters have complimented me on my posts. Not something I look for but plenty of evidence. The very few who seem to follow me around with your type of comments are for me fools so not something I am concerned with.

Nothing I said was out of line. Anyone with some basic football knowledge understands that the short passing game was a result of the poor OL and skill guys. Go back and listen to Collingsworth in the second WFT game.
RE: No need  
christian : 5/28/2023 8:39 am : link
In comment 16124243 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
to take your points in. You should go back to when I started posting and see how many posters have complimented me on my posts. Not something I look for but plenty of evidence.


You take that back right now, or I'm emailing the moderators for you spreading lies. I mean it.
RE: RE: No need  
Lines of Scrimmage : 5/28/2023 11:00 am : link
In comment 16124244 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16124243 Lines of Scrimmage said:


Quote:


to take your points in. You should go back to when I started posting and see how many posters have complimented me on my posts. Not something I look for but plenty of evidence.



You take that back right now, or I'm emailing the moderators for you spreading lies. I mean it.


Go ahead.

Make sure you include the poster you have said is one of your favorites when he said "LoS is a good contributor" to start. That comment is in one of the post game rants you were on with Dumber as usual.

I won't name that poster who said that out of respect but if you are smart enough to build a clock you can figure it out.

Good luck.
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