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Barnwell-NYG has 4th worse offseason in NFL

Essex : 5/25/2023 10:29 am
it is behind a paywall, but he basically accuses the Giants of getting high on their own supply.

Too much asset allocation to Barklwy and Jones prevented them from fixing the 29th ranked DVOA defense. Although he criticizes us for not getting a number one receiver, he thinks we got more playmakers so he gives us some credit there.


I link but only ESPN subscribers can read it.
Link - ( New Window )
Its a fine take if you dont believe in Jones  
Jim in Forest Hills : 5/25/2023 10:30 am : link
We'll see it play out.
Tend to agree with him  
JonC : 5/25/2023 10:33 am : link
NYG had a good draft, but it wasn't a great crop. They still need to get better at '22 weaknesses, eg stopping the run, WR, IOL. It will all hinge on Jones, and it's a significant wager/expenditure.
Lol.  
Big Blue '56 : 5/25/2023 10:38 am : link
Barnwell is FOS..
No argument that we don’t yet have a true #1 WR  
mfsd : 5/25/2023 10:39 am : link
But who was out there that we could have/should have gotten but passed on? Those guys don’t grow on trees. And when they do they cost a fortune

Lazard, Meyer, JuJu, OBJ, Woods, Thielen all went elsewhere…but I don’t think any of them are true #1 guys the Giants should have given big $$ or traded for
I read it. To me he sounds like a guy stretching things to create a  
PatersonPlank : 5/25/2023 10:41 am : link
negative write for "clicks". HE acknowledges Hyatt was ranked as a 1st rounder by some, but then says the Giants don't have a #1. He says Jones was #6 in QBR, then says its a bad contract (even though comparatively speaking it isn't). Barkley isn't even signed yet, he will likely play on a tag. That is value for a guy who was the offense last year, and even with defenses focusing solely on him still had 1,650 yds and 11 TDs. He also lists Hyatt, Waller, Campbell, Shep, WanDale, etc, and says we should be able to get a good starting 3 from all that.

We drafted 3 guys who are impact starters for us too. I think we have done very well.
So what does he think they should have done  
BillT : 5/25/2023 10:43 am : link
If he gave an alternative to what the Giants did I’d be interested to hear it. Getting a #1 WR would be great. But they also needed depth on the DL, depth at WR, a good CB, a good ILB, a good TE, a good center. You show me how they can get all of that and a #1 WR, I’ll listen.
Comes down to Jones  
Sean : 5/25/2023 10:43 am : link
They are paying him a lot over the next two seasons. I get it.
Espn has become a joke  
George from PA : 5/25/2023 10:45 am : link
4th worst....is absolutely ridiculous.

They only lost was Love.

The pro and con of signing Jones is an opinion.....
seems like his biggest criticism is the okereke signing  
Eric on Li : 5/25/2023 10:48 am : link
Quote:
The cap space the Giants were supposed to be clearing last year went to Jones and Barkley, which limited what they could do to upgrade a defense that ranked 29th in DVOA last season. I liked the addition of A'Shawn Robinson to one of the league's worst rush defenses, but a four-year, $40 million deal for off-ball linebacker Bobby Okereke was too aggressive at a position where the majority of useful players settled for much smaller commitments. Schoen used the team's first-round pick on much-needed cornerback Deonte Banks, but this secondary is going to struggle against an NFC East full of imposing receivers.


call me crazy but I dont think he's totally wrong here. they could have signed pratt or tj edwards and brought back love for roughly the same $ they gave okereke. he's now a top 10 ILB by guaranteed $ and AAV right behind devondre campbell and ahead of demario davis and dre greenlaw. i like the player but he's getting paid like a pro bowler so that's a pretty weighty expectation.

the rest of his analysis is sort of pro forma - "they are overestimating last year's success and had to pay jones too much" - which could basically be written by a 3rd grader.
Not Much He Said That Was Unfair  
lax counsel : 5/25/2023 10:50 am : link
The Giants receiving corp is likely better just by virtue of how bad it was in 22. But they haven't necessarily brought in a true #1 that yet scares defenses. There will be a lot of reliance on a TE who hasn't really put up big number since 2020, a third-round draft pick, a second year who was injured last year, and a veteran who was a complimentary piece even before his litany of injuries. The offense really struggled last year when teams sold out to stop Barkley.

The other thing I thought was on point was his comment on Jones' production. What he did last year was very good on a rookie deal. However, if he replicates that production on his new deal, its not going to look good. He just didn't do enough in the passing game. Granted, the contract has some out clauses, so it won't be an albatross, which was smart on the Schoen's part.

Overall, I don't think he said anything inflammatory or grossly off point. A lot of this season will be based on hope for improved offensive production which could go in any number of directions.
top 5 Defense  
AROCK1000 : 5/25/2023 10:53 am : link
Is more likely......
NYG got incrementally better, based on what was available to them  
JonC : 5/25/2023 10:54 am : link
in UFA, Draft, UDFA. Now, what level of multiplier can these guys create on the football field is the question moving forward. Still got holes to fill on paper and on the field, and the arrow is pointing up, imo.
RE: I read it. To me he sounds like a guy stretching things to create a  
lax counsel : 5/25/2023 10:55 am : link
In comment 16122965 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
negative write for "clicks". HE acknowledges Hyatt was ranked as a 1st rounder by some, but then says the Giants don't have a #1. He says Jones was #6 in QBR, then says its a bad contract (even though comparatively speaking it isn't). Barkley isn't even signed yet, he will likely play on a tag. That is value for a guy who was the offense last year, and even with defenses focusing solely on him still had 1,650 yds and 11 TDs. He also lists Hyatt, Waller, Campbell, Shep, WanDale, etc, and says we should be able to get a good starting 3 from all that.

We drafted 3 guys who are impact starters for us too. I think we have done very well.


Not necessarily disagreeing, but if you are referring to the 23 draft how do you know three guys drafted are impact starters? How do we know they won't all suck? I take your point with Hyatt, yes he has some first round talent but he fell to the third round. He didn't fall there because this was an especially deep WR class either. A lot of the bravado on this board is what it has been for the past decade, hope and assuming all goes exactly as planned.
If you  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/25/2023 10:56 am : link
look at the roster right now compared to the roster last year at this time, it is MUCH, MUCH better.
Where was there a #1 WR to be had?  
Jughead10 : 5/25/2023 10:58 am : link
We made a great trade for Waller, who was by far the best pass catching option who changed teams this year. Wasn't really a great crop of WRs in the draft either.
It all comes down to this  
Shecky : 5/25/2023 10:59 am : link
1) if Daniel Jones is a good starting QB (doesn’t have to be great, just good) it’s an amazing off-season. Because if the Giants instead let him leave, everyone ripping them for signing him would be also ripping him for letting him leave.

2) Barkley is one of the better RBs in the entire NFL. It all comes down to how much he gets paid.

It’s easy to bash both of their contracts. But how they play in 23 is all that matters
I see it this way:  
NYG22 : 5/25/2023 11:01 am : link
QB: Projection: marginal improvement. In '22, DJ improved greatly to land in the middle tier of QBs. That was in the first year with yet another new coaching staff/playbook and still without pass catching weapons. All of that + the OL figures to improve in '24. Is DJ elite or close? No. Could he be top 8-12? Sure.

RB: Projection: let's call this a push vs last year.

WR: Projection: Improvement. There is no pro bowler in this group, but its finally NFL caliber. There no stud, but a bunch of guys with size and in more cases, speed that should make for interesting usage by creative coaches, especially with a mobile QB, elite RB/TE.

TE: Projection: Major improvement. Not only does Waller represent the best TE we've had since Shockey but our TE2 situation is better with Bellinger going from TE1 as a rook to TE2 as a sophomore.

OL: Projection: Likely improvement. Thomas should be excellent again. JMS is a rookie but I have to think he will be better than JF. Bredeson is reliable. Wildcards are Neal and to a lesser extent, Ezeudu.

DE: Projection: Solid improvement. Added 600lbs of beef.

LB: Projection: Major improvement. Okereke is a good player, something the LB corp of '22 lacked. This is still a shallow group on the inside. On the outside, Thibs and Ojulari are an exciting young duo, particularly if AO gets his muscle flexibility in order.

CB: Projection: Major improvement. When AJax went down they were rolling out street FAs. A physically gifted RD1 pick + AJax + some development (notably a meal plan for Flott) should point to an improved unit.

S: Projection: Mixed bag. On one hand, you lose Love, a good/versatile player. On the other, hopefully McKinney does nothing but sit by the pool during the bye week. I like the slew of young safeties they have to develop (Belton, Pinnock, Owens).

Giants biggest weaknesses were as follows:  
KDavies : 5/25/2023 11:04 am : link
1. WR - they will have Hodgins all year, added Campbell and Hyatt, possibly Crowder if he makes the team. Waller also gives them another huge receiving option
2. interior OL - they added perhaps the top C in the draft
3. CB - they added a 1st round CB and Oruwariye
4. MLB - they added one of the top MLB available in FA in Okereke
5. DT against the run - they added Robinson and Nunez-Roches

Very good offseason IMO, but hey they didn't get the sexy fantasy football names available.
 
christian : 5/25/2023 11:05 am : link
Relative to positional value, Okereke was a big swing. But relative to the whole, the 21M he's guaranteed isn't a big risk.

If he flames out, people will criticize the deal but it's not a tragedy on its own. None of the deals commitments he's made are that impactful save Jones.

This whole off season comes down to whether they're right about Jones. If the best yet to come, it's a great off season. If he's the same guy as last year, it's neutral.
On paper  
Spiciest Memelord : 5/25/2023 11:05 am : link
you can argue the talent this year is better but the record might not be better this year, as we might have overachieved/caught some breaks a bit last year.
Jones  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/25/2023 11:07 am : link
is important but the Giants got better at bunch of different positions. They also got a lot faster.

They improved in the middle of the defense at DL and LB, they really improved at CB, they got a true center, they got a difference maker at TE, they very much upgraded their WR corps (remember, last year Golladay and Toney were supposed to be "the guys"). Campbell and Hyatt are big upgrades there.
RE: If you  
Dr. D : 5/25/2023 11:08 am : link
In comment 16122982 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
look at the roster right now compared to the roster last year at this time, it is MUCH, MUCH better.

I don't see how anyone can debate that, but some will anyway.
RE: …  
Eric on Li : 5/25/2023 11:13 am : link
In comment 16122997 christian said:
Quote:
Relative to positional value, Okereke was a big swing. But relative to the whole, the 21M he's guaranteed isn't a big risk.

If he flames out, people will criticize the deal but it's not a tragedy on its own. None of the deals commitments he's made are that impactful save Jones.

This whole off season comes down to whether they're right about Jones. If the best yet to come, it's a great off season. If he's the same guy as last year, it's neutral.


it's almost exactly the blake martinez deal again - which looked like a great deal year 1 and then he tore his acl. hopefully this one goes better but that one sort of shows the risk of any decent sized deal bc even if you get the evaluation right and the player has the 'iron man' track record it's still the nfl. there's a substantial chance any big deal turns into a big chunk of $ on IR.

in a year where there were some decent ILB's at a lower price point and their own reliable starter i think there's a fair argument that was the safer play just by virtue of 2 swings vs 1. doesn't mean that will end up correct. if okereke has a pierce/boley type 3-5 year run here he will probably be worth it.
RE: Tend to agree with him  
UConn4523 : 5/25/2023 11:14 am : link
In comment 16122955 JonC said:
Quote:
NYG had a good draft, but it wasn't a great crop. They still need to get better at '22 weaknesses, eg stopping the run, WR, IOL. It will all hinge on Jones, and it's a significant wager/expenditure.


But 4th worst means the majority of the league had a better offseason - do you actually believe that? Every team picked from the same crop of draft picks so that qualifier is out the window. So that leaves FA - 25+ teams had a better influx of talent in FA than the Giants did?

Also, we kept our Coordinators and continued to bolster the FO.
I think if you ask JS and BD  
The Dude : 5/25/2023 11:17 am : link
behind closed doors, they'll tell you they want one more offseason of roster flipping & adding to be the contender they want to be.

Also- ranking off seasons? SMH
RE: RE: Tend to agree with him  
Big Blue '56 : 5/25/2023 11:18 am : link
In comment 16123010 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 16122955 JonC said:


Quote:


NYG had a good draft, but it wasn't a great crop. They still need to get better at '22 weaknesses, eg stopping the run, WR, IOL. It will all hinge on Jones, and it's a significant wager/expenditure.



But 4th worst means the majority of the league had a better offseason - do you actually believe that? Every team picked from the same crop of draft picks so that qualifier is out the window. So that leaves FA - 25+ teams had a better influx of talent in FA than the Giants did?

Also, we kept our Coordinators and continued to bolster the FO.


Exactly
Of course, that doesn’t guarantee anything,  
Big Blue '56 : 5/25/2023 11:21 am : link
but we needed to get better from year one and we did, at least on paper. The rest, TBD..

And next year, we need to continue to get younger and stronger
If you give an idiot a pen  
Giant John : 5/25/2023 11:25 am : link
They will write something stupid. This nonsense proves my point.
Also  
UConn4523 : 5/25/2023 11:26 am : link
even if Jones’ doesn’t workout the contract isn’t bad - the out after 2 years is an important difference between his and most other second QB contracts. They also have no commitment to Barkley beyond this year and if we do get a deal done, my guess is it aligns with Jones’ window. If Barnwell isn’t factoring that in than he isn’t being honest.
My sense  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/25/2023 11:27 am : link
is fans still don't realize how much of an upgrade Bobby O is at ILB.

Last year we had guys like Tae Crowder and Jaylon Smith starting. Those two guys aren't even on an NFL 90-man roster right now.
RE: Jones  
Eric on Li : 5/25/2023 11:27 am : link
In comment 16123001 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
is important but the Giants got better at bunch of different positions. They also got a lot faster.

They improved in the middle of the defense at DL and LB, they really improved at CB, they got a true center, they got a difference maker at TE, they very much upgraded their WR corps (remember, last year Golladay and Toney were supposed to be "the guys"). Campbell and Hyatt are big upgrades there.


that's what's sort of curious about the framing since this wasnt necessarily a power ranking of teams but who had the best/worst offseasons.

added waller/campbell/crowder/sweeney on offense,
added okereke/robinson/nunez-roches/mccain on defense.
they had a really strong draft in terms of alignment with needs,

waller, campbell, robinson, okereke are 4 clear new starters, plus some new depth, plus another 1 or 2 day 1 starters likely from draft.

i can see some fair criticisms, like how much they bet on okereke and the mccain/love swap, but generally speaking they upgraded 25%+ of their starting 22 with only 1 downgrade of significance (love). im certain we could find more than 3 other offseasons worse than that.

for all the gyrations people go through to praise the eagles, they lost possibly their best DL to a huge FA contract, CGJ and Epps from the secondary, Miles Sanders, a multi-year starter from their OL, 2 starting LBs, and had to give jalen hurts a record setting contract. however much you like or dont like hurts paying him that kind of $ is not the same kind of obvious decision as Burrow or Mahomes. even if they played their hand the best they could they arent as good of a roster as last year.
Eric on Li  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/25/2023 11:30 am : link
the only head-scratchers to me are:

(1) Julian Love leaving for the money he got. I still think something weird happened there. But the team may also be higher on Belton. Love didn't end the season on a strong note.

(2) I thought they would add another guard. But they may be higher last year's rookies and Bredeson than we realize.

But most of the things JonC points out, they addressed head on.
RE: RE: Tend to agree with him  
JonC : 5/25/2023 11:30 am : link
In comment 16123010 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 16122955 JonC said:


Quote:


NYG had a good draft, but it wasn't a great crop. They still need to get better at '22 weaknesses, eg stopping the run, WR, IOL. It will all hinge on Jones, and it's a significant wager/expenditure.



But 4th worst means the majority of the league had a better offseason - do you actually believe that? Every team picked from the same crop of draft picks so that qualifier is out the window. So that leaves FA - 25+ teams had a better influx of talent in FA than the Giants did?

Also, we kept our Coordinators and continued to bolster the FO.


I blew right past the subject line (no, don't agree) and went right into the body of the post.
RE: So what does he think they should have done  
Payasdaddy : 5/25/2023 11:30 am : link
In comment 16122967 BillT said:
Quote:
If he gave an alternative to what the Giants did I’d be interested to hear it. Getting a #1 WR would be great. But they also needed depth on the DL, depth at WR, a good CB, a good ILB, a good TE, a good center. You show me how they can get all of that and a #1 WR, I’ll listen.


The mantra here has been build team thru draft , develop players and sign some FA with upside along with maybe 1 larger signing
ILB a big signing ( solid, not great player) who should help quiet a bit
2 solid interior dline signings real nice. Exactly what this D was missing
CB obviously rd 1. Waller, parris C etc on O is helpful
Hyatt a real nice get in rd 3. JMS lines up need and BPA in rd 2
Not all holes filled but a majority were
Also we have most the draft class from last yr coming back from injury. If most do, a good influx of developmental players to add to the mix
We weren’t suppose to stack a SB team in yr 2. But we look like a playoff contender. 1 more offseason needed
2 questions  
joeinpa : 5/25/2023 11:33 am : link
For those who question the Jones signing:

Would the Giants be a better team next season or even 2 seasons down the road had they let Jones walk? If you believe yes, I d be interested in reading what the plan at quarterback would have been

Secondly, What if the Giants believe in Daniel, what lesser contract could they have offered and not lose him. My personal opinion is this contract could end up being a deal for the Giants.

Granted my view of Jones obvious physical talent made me a fan since the day he was drafted, so my opinion of him as a quarterback is skewed

I ve never been concerned about the idea that he is slow to process, I heard the same many years ago about Phil Simms.

It s pretty much a given the game slows down for these guys as they gain experience, I think we saw that last season with Daniel
RE: My sense  
Eric on Li : 5/25/2023 11:35 am : link
In comment 16123024 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
is fans still don't realize how much of an upgrade Bobby O is at ILB.

Last year we had guys like Tae Crowder and Jaylon Smith starting. Those two guys aren't even on an NFL 90-man roster right now.


anyone with a pulse would have been an upgrade on what the nyg had last year so the question is degree/roi.

is okereke so much better than tj edwards that it was worth letting love go? tj edwards was very good last year in philly.

obviously the giants like okereke a lot and this group has earned trust. that doesn't make it wrong to point out that there's some risk just by virtue of the $. any UFA contract 10m+/aav and more than 50% guaranteed has some risk built in.

during the bye week i recall arguing with what seemed a pretty healthy majority who wanted to spend 10m+/year extending love so i have a little bit of whiplash now with the consensus seeming to be that minimum mccain is a total replacement.
I really hope Darren Waller is 2019 Darren Waller  
Jim in Forest Hills : 5/25/2023 11:35 am : link
That dude changes the offense.
Eric on Li  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/25/2023 11:38 am : link
Only thing I will tell you is Wink Martindale cut his teeth in this league by coaching inside linebackers. That's how he rose up the ranks.
RE: RE: RE: Tend to agree with him  
HBart : 5/25/2023 11:38 am : link
In comment 16123014 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 16123010 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 16122955 JonC said:


Quote:


NYG had a good draft, but it wasn't a great crop. They still need to get better at '22 weaknesses, eg stopping the run, WR, IOL. It will all hinge on Jones, and it's a significant wager/expenditure.



But 4th worst means the majority of the league had a better offseason - do you actually believe that? Every team picked from the same crop of draft picks so that qualifier is out the window. So that leaves FA - 25+ teams had a better influx of talent in FA than the Giants did?

Also, we kept our Coordinators and continued to bolster the FO.



Exactly


Exactly x 2.
RE: I really hope Darren Waller is 2019 Darren Waller  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/25/2023 11:38 am : link
In comment 16123040 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
That dude changes the offense.


Well, he's tearing up in practice today. They can't cover him.
RE: Eric on Li  
Eric on Li : 5/25/2023 11:41 am : link
In comment 16123030 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
the only head-scratchers to me are:

(1) Julian Love leaving for the money he got. I still think something weird happened there. But the team may also be higher on Belton. Love didn't end the season on a strong note.

(2) I thought they would add another guard. But they may be higher last year's rookies and Bredeson than we realize.

But most of the things JonC points out, they addressed head on.


i agree with both of those things and re Love here are the 3 things i think may have played a role.

1. pre-UFA opening they didn't know the cost on Bobby McCain. He was cut on 2/27 but who knows what his price was and where it went as FA evolved. Maybe they thought the value was just too good at the minimum and he made Love expendable?

2. okereke - it's possible they weren't sure they could get him at a contract that made sense and thought it more likely that they'd get one of those lower priced ILBs which would have given them the $ to bring back Love.

3. slayton - i cant imagine they would have gone much higher than they did to bring him back, and maybe they expected him to get more in FA - and if that happened then they had the $ to bring back love.

Once Love went to the market, they moved on to filling their roster, and i think by the time he came back to them with an offer they'd simply spent elsewhere (as they've said publicly). those were the places they spent, now we all hope they chose right. i'd have brought back love before slayton personally.
RE: RE: …  
christian : 5/25/2023 11:43 am : link
In comment 16123007 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
in a year where there were some decent ILB's at a lower price point and their own reliable starter i think there's a fair argument that was the safer play just by virtue of 2 swings vs 1. doesn't mean that will end up correct. if okereke has a pierce/boley type 3-5 year run here he will probably be worth it.


I liked the work Brown did on the pro scouting side last year, so I trust that the reason they went over slot on Okereke is because they project a higher ceiling. But these are the moves that separate the men from the boys on team construction.
RE: My sense  
RCPhoenix : 5/25/2023 11:43 am : link
In comment 16123024 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
is fans still don't realize how much of an upgrade Bobby O is at ILB.

Last year we had guys like Tae Crowder and Jaylon Smith starting. Those two guys aren't even on an NFL 90-man roster right now.


Keeping Lawrence & Williams fresh with capable backups, and having NFL caliber ILBs, will make a huge difference in stopping the run. And Philly & Dallas killed the Giants there last season.
RE: Eric on Li  
Eric on Li : 5/25/2023 11:44 am : link
In comment 16123043 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Only thing I will tell you is Wink Martindale cut his teeth in this league by coaching inside linebackers. That's how he rose up the ranks.


i can buy that - but in baltimore they probably said the same thing when he picked patrick queen in the first round and that didn't work out great.

i think my biggest issue is simply that i think DBs (like love) are more important than ILB's, unless the ILB are pro bowl types. they paid okereke like they think he's that so im hoping they are right. love seemed like a very safe use of $ though.
RE: 2 questions  
Spiciest Memelord : 5/25/2023 11:44 am : link
In comment 16123036 joeinpa said:
Quote:
For those who question the Jones signing:

Would the Giants be a better team next season or even 2 seasons down the road had they let Jones walk? If you believe yes, I d be interested in reading what the plan at quarterback would have been

Secondly, What if the Giants believe in Daniel, what lesser contract could they have offered and not lose him. My personal opinion is this contract could end up being a deal for the Giants.

Granted my view of Jones obvious physical talent made me a fan since the day he was drafted, so my opinion of him as a quarterback is skewed

I ve never been concerned about the idea that he is slow to process, I heard the same many years ago about Phil Simms.

It s pretty much a given the game slows down for these guys as they gain experience, I think we saw that last season with Daniel


I think the previous regimes tried to force Jones to be a pocket passer which made his decision process seem slow.

It's not rocket science to quickly read a side of the field, see the coverage is muddy and just run.
There's plenty of room for debate over how good the offseason was  
Greg from LI : 5/25/2023 11:46 am : link
I think the roster is clearly better than last year, but how much better remains to be seen. I have no idea how that translates to "fourth worst"
Those who are so negative about the Giants offseason  
Dr. D : 5/25/2023 11:49 am : link
including some Giants fans, are the same ones who were predicting 5-6 wins last year and that we would not be re-signing Jones. Most of them did not expect Jones to perform like he did and can't seem to imagine him taking another step forward with improved coaching, OL and receivers.

I don't know if it's just innate pessimism or what. I'm sure in their minds, it's realism. But the significant improvement in the roster (at positions that were major weaknesses in '22) doesn't seem to be debatable to me.

RE: seems like his biggest criticism is the okereke signing  
santacruzom : 5/25/2023 11:50 am : link
In comment 16122973 Eric on Li said:
Quote:


the rest of his analysis is sort of pro forma - "they are overestimating last year's success and had to pay jones too much" - which could basically be written by a 3rd grader.


I don't think the first point about overestimating last year's success is as simple as third-grade level because a lot of people seem to be unable to grasp it.
 
christian : 5/25/2023 11:53 am : link
I don't know what to make of the Love thing. They came up with what's effectively 5M guaranteed to sign Robinson, after Love got 6M guaranteed to go to Seattle.

It feels more like they didn't want Love, versus spending the money that was earmarked for him elsewhere.
RE: Eric on Li  
JonC : 5/25/2023 11:53 am : link
In comment 16123030 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
the only head-scratchers to me are:

(1) Julian Love leaving for the money he got. I still think something weird happened there. But the team may also be higher on Belton. Love didn't end the season on a strong note.

(2) I thought they would add another guard. But they may be higher last year's rookies and Bredeson than we realize.

But most of the things JonC points out, they addressed head on.


They clearly addressed some spots on paper; some of them are incremental improvements, some are wagers on players with injury histories who must stay healthy, some are just young dudes and draft picks who they need to develop into quality pros, quickly. But, a year from them now they will still be looking at DL, IOL, WR, and CB in the draft, as well, as some of their additions are stop gaps. The process is underway and continues, no complaints given what they had to pick from. They just need more to get the pipeline flowing to sustain success and ascend.
re: Love  
JonC : 5/25/2023 11:56 am : link
I think his performance vs the Eagles really soured them on him, but it also suggests there were existing undercurrents too.
RE: re: Love  
Essex : 5/25/2023 11:58 am : link
In comment 16123069 JonC said:
Quote:
I think his performance vs the Eagles really soured them on him, but it also suggests there were existing undercurrents too.

He literally gave Devonta Smith two big plays one the first game and the second in the first or second play of the playoff game.
RE: RE: Eric on Li  
Payasdaddy : 5/25/2023 12:00 pm : link
In comment 16123066 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 16123030 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


the only head-scratchers to me are:

(1) Julian Love leaving for the money he got. I still think something weird happened there. But the team may also be higher on Belton. Love didn't end the season on a strong note.

(2) I thought they would add another guard. But they may be higher last year's rookies and Bredeson than we realize.

But most of the things JonC points out, they addressed head on.



They clearly addressed some spots on paper; some of them are incremental improvements, some are wagers on players with injury histories who must stay healthy, some are just young dudes and draft picks who they need to develop into quality pros, quickly. But, a year from them now they will still be looking at DL, IOL, WR, and CB in the draft, as well, as some of their additions are stop gaps. The process is underway and continues, no complaints given what they had to pick from. They just need more to get the pipeline flowing to sustain success and ascend.


A yr from know most teams will have a laundry list of needs. Most teams do. Just keep hitting on a high % of draft, do a good job developing them and hope most your FA signings work out well for the cash you signed them for. All you can do
QB stability is key. Hopefully jones solidifies himself as top 12 guy for the LT
RE: RE: Eric on Li  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/25/2023 12:04 pm : link
In comment 16123066 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 16123030 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


the only head-scratchers to me are:

(1) Julian Love leaving for the money he got. I still think something weird happened there. But the team may also be higher on Belton. Love didn't end the season on a strong note.

(2) I thought they would add another guard. But they may be higher last year's rookies and Bredeson than we realize.

But most of the things JonC points out, they addressed head on.



They clearly addressed some spots on paper; some of them are incremental improvements, some are wagers on players with injury histories who must stay healthy, some are just young dudes and draft picks who they need to develop into quality pros, quickly. But, a year from them now they will still be looking at DL, IOL, WR, and CB in the draft, as well, as some of their additions are stop gaps. The process is underway and continues, no complaints given what they had to pick from. They just need more to get the pipeline flowing to sustain success and ascend.


You and I usually agree, but I think your assessment is overly negative. Robinson and Nunez-Roches are not "wagers" or "injury risks." Neither is Bobby O. These are real upgrades. JMS was regarded by most as the safest player in the draft and will start, likely for 10 years. Hyatt is a major upgrade. Waller is already proving to be impossible to cover and getting him for malcontent Toney was a coup. Banks is perfect for Wink's system and I would not discount Hawkins as an eventual player.

Will they address those positions again? Of course, because some of this is tied in with contracts of guys who are making too much money.
RE: 2 questions  
Sean : 5/25/2023 12:06 pm : link
In comment 16123036 joeinpa said:
Quote:
For those who question the Jones signing:

Would the Giants be a better team next season or even 2 seasons down the road had they let Jones walk? If you believe yes, I d be interested in reading what the plan at quarterback would have been

Secondly, What if the Giants believe in Daniel, what lesser contract could they have offered and not lose him. My personal opinion is this contract could end up being a deal for the Giants.

Granted my view of Jones obvious physical talent made me a fan since the day he was drafted, so my opinion of him as a quarterback is skewed

I ve never been concerned about the idea that he is slow to process, I heard the same many years ago about Phil Simms.

It s pretty much a given the game slows down for these guys as they gain experience, I think we saw that last season with Daniel

I agree mostly. I think the critics of the Giants off-season would say they caved to both Jones and Barkley. Considering at the money Garoppolo got, I’m assuming if NYG let Jones test they market they would assume he wouldn’t command what NYG gave them.
I've seen numerous critiques of the Jones deal  
NoGainDayne : 5/25/2023 12:06 pm : link
just completely disregarded here. Arguments around it being a good deal "if they are right" about Jones, completely disregards sound risk management and asset valuation principles.

There wasn't a good argument to be made for Jones to be paid more than Geno.

There wasn't a good argument to be made they he should get a cent more than $69M guaranteed for the first two years, the cost of 2, 1 year option franchise tags. Which is really what it is for and the logical approach for a player with so much risk involved. With 1 above average season and the 2 being poor at the most expensive position. Jones not taking a step forward makes it difficult for us to win for 3 seasons. ($20M dead money is an out but it isn't really a winning formula)

The central arguments around not giving Jones the franchise tag seemed to be around offending him. And I can't understand what is so offensive about getting a 1 year contract as a top 5 player while never sniffing that level of production.

On the flip side there seemed to be no concern about franchising Barkley has played at an all-pro level.

The issue isn't as much about the Jones deal as much as it is about Jones strong arming the Giants, preying on his clear knowledge of their desperation to stay out of the cellar. The agent firing said a lot about that. And the level of leverage he had and the way he played it was reminiscent of the negotiating ineptitude of Leo Williams.

When Barkley and Lawrence announced their holdouts I googled NFL player holdouts 2023 and just found an article on those 2 and 2022 holdouts. This is a concerning development.

Benchmarking to the market value of something is not just about that contract, it could very easily ripple out. Okereke was an overpay as well (I do like the player though).

There is nothing not to like about JS and BD. But for the life of me I don't know how people around here don't want to act like Joe Judge was the savior after 6-10, McAdoo as well after almost as strong of a 1st season as BD.

And this same leadership group in a flash went from a Superbowl team to a laughing stock when TC left the building.

Under DG and a lot of the same leaders (and to the best of my knowledge largely the same contract/cap experts) we heard the cap doesn't matter, one deal isn't going to break you etc.

Last season was fantastic. I would love to see it continue but I don't know how everyone can give so much benefit of the doubt so quickly to the Mara leadership group that has just been so completely inept for so long.

The Jones/Barkley handling is concerning. The guy producing elite numbers for you, you are grinding in the negotiation and talking about positional value. Well great, positional value is about benchmarking pay. And I don't know how two guys on the same offense, the one whose performance is objectively better relative to his peers you are having a clearly sharp edged conversation around value while the other guy you are making excuses for based on the same talent around him and ignoring clear negotiating benchmarks.

It took a truly extraordinary amount of failure for Mara to even consider letting in outside opinions but all of the same brain trust that torpedoed this franchise is still in that building. If Jones takes a step forward, everyone including me will be very pleased. If he doesn't, no more excuses about the talent around him and the fans should be putting heat on the Maras not JS if we don't want to end up right back in the gutter again.
If Barnwell gets paid  
Spiciest Memelord : 5/25/2023 12:09 pm : link
minimum wage, that's one of the worst contracts for ESPN.

jk there's a lot more awful "talent" on that network even worse than Barnwell.
Look  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/25/2023 12:11 pm : link
we're not going to catch Philly this year unless something weird happens.

The challenge this year is moving past Dallas.
if you don't think the Giants are massively improved  
ElitoCanton : 5/25/2023 12:11 pm : link
you are either obtuse or just looking for clicks. That doesn't mean the team will win more games this season. The schedule is harder and the football may bounce a different way. But the team is definitely headed in the right direction. This was a complete rebuild. The difference in talent from the beginning of last year to this season is massive. The biggest factor will likely be the improvement of the year 2 guys. Thibs, Neal, Ezeudu.
The important question isn't if the Giants improved  
NoGainDayne : 5/25/2023 12:20 pm : link
they clearly did.

It is if they are wagering too much off of one good season that it will cost them down the line.
If the Jones deal  
ElitoCanton : 5/25/2023 12:23 pm : link
doesn't work out this year, they can get out very easily. They have not wagered much. And they tagged Barkley. They still haven't committed to him long term. Every other move they made was either reasonable for the short term or an investment in the future. To way they've wagered any of the future is ludicrous.
Barnwell is a Football Outsiders/Advanced Stats Guy  
Lambuth_Special : 5/25/2023 12:25 pm : link
So everything is going to be colored by the focus on the 29th DVOA defense, which got less offseason investment than the offensive side of the ball. Advanced stats also informs the view Jones; he had a solid 2022 year in that category, but it's still the outlier so of course Barnwell would scoff at the money thrown there.

Really I think a lot of negative assumptions from both PFF and Barnwell this week come from a the idea that there isn't another level for Jones, or that Thibs, Neal, Belton, Flott etc. won't improve significantly, and the rookies/FA aren't enough to make up for that. I think that's reasonable precaution to take, but I disagree with it. I'm bullish on the upside of this team given the coaching in place.
RE: If you  
Wildcardgiants : 5/25/2023 12:27 pm : link
In comment 16122982 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
look at the roster right now compared to the roster last year at this time, it is MUCH, MUCH better.


Agree. Arguably, we improved every area of the team that needed it... I don't understand the piling on with the Giants.
RE: Look  
JonC : 5/25/2023 12:33 pm : link
In comment 16123090 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
we're not going to catch Philly this year unless something weird happens.

The challenge this year is moving past Dallas.


This is where my horizon is. They've clearly improved the roster and foundation on paper, and at the same time I see a need to add playmakers who will take them to the next level, eg competing with Philly, KC, et al. Waller is that type of talent, it's just the injuries need to fuck off. OL and DL and LB play must improve. It's not always a linear path to improving the physicality and cohesiveness of line play, so I am conservative there. Given their 2023 schedule, they might struggle to win 8 games but it could still clearly demonstrate success and another step in the ascension. Time will tell, but I expect to see a number of signs of progress in '23.
most analysts like what the Giants have done  
ElitoCanton : 5/25/2023 12:33 pm : link
Mina Kimes last week on her pod said she loved everything the Giants did this offseason. Both in free agency and the draft. This view has been echoed on NFL Live. Even by the Cowboys homers. Progress is being made. This franchise is in such a better place than it was less than two years ago.
RE: Barnwell is a Football Outsiders/Advanced Stats Guy  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/25/2023 12:35 pm : link
In comment 16123104 Lambuth_Special said:
Quote:
So everything is going to be colored by the focus on the 29th DVOA defense, which got less offseason investment than the offensive side of the ball. Advanced stats also informs the view Jones; he had a solid 2022 year in that category, but it's still the outlier so of course Barnwell would scoff at the money thrown there.

Really I think a lot of negative assumptions from both PFF and Barnwell this week come from a the idea that there isn't another level for Jones, or that Thibs, Neal, Belton, Flott etc. won't improve significantly, and the rookies/FA aren't enough to make up for that. I think that's reasonable precaution to take, but I disagree with it. I'm bullish on the upside of this team given the coaching in place.


I miss the days where people evaluated things with their own eyes.
we didn't improve the defense?  
djm : 5/25/2023 12:38 pm : link
we added a vet star LB and two solid vet DLs. I won't even count the draft as every team drafts but we added 3 legit players for the defense. The Giants were never going to allocate or add a stud star passrusher in FA as they have 2 guys that they like in Ojulari and Thibs and FA passrushers are tough to come by anyway.

If you don't like Jones you're never going to buy in to what the Giants are doing so you might as well start and end every article with that and save everyone the time needed to read the rest.

People won't budge off the Jones nonsense until he wins a super bowl which is dumb stupid ass logic but it is what it is.
RE: If the Jones deal  
NoGainDayne : 5/25/2023 12:45 pm : link
In comment 16123101 ElitoCanton said:
Quote:
doesn't work out this year, they can get out very easily. They have not wagered much. And they tagged Barkley. They still haven't committed to him long term. Every other move they made was either reasonable for the short term or an investment in the future. To way they've wagered any of the future is ludicrous.


It would have been much easier to "get out" of the Franchise tag. And two franchise tags would have not only been $12M (at least, this could balloon with incentives) cheaper than the his $81M guarantee. With $18M dead money in the 3rd year if they cut him. They actually made a significant wager and really an unnecessary risk on him. They essentially wagered 3 years when it made total sense given his history (performance and injury) to wager 1.

If Jones wanted more security the Giants like any team using their negotiating leverage properly should have held an extremely hard line at that 2X franchise tag amount.

I don't understand how it could be categorized as anything less than a significant wager at ~18% of the cap. Throw in the fact that we gave away the optionality while also guaranteeing more money than that route and it is fairly definitionally a massive bet and risk. I'm hoping they are right about him taking a step forward, they have to be. If they aren't it is just a huge unforced error and pretty embarrassing for them. I don't know how anyone can downplay that
Because they can easily get out  
ElitoCanton : 5/25/2023 12:46 pm : link
after year 1 if he's terrible. But they probably won't want to. If they tagged him, they would not have had the space to address other areas of need on the team. But carry on with this nonsense. Barnwell is wrong and so are you.
RE: RE: If the Jones deal  
djm : 5/25/2023 12:51 pm : link
In comment 16123122 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
In comment 16123101 ElitoCanton said:


Quote:


doesn't work out this year, they can get out very easily. They have not wagered much. And they tagged Barkley. They still haven't committed to him long term. Every other move they made was either reasonable for the short term or an investment in the future. To way they've wagered any of the future is ludicrous.



It would have been much easier to "get out" of the Franchise tag. And two franchise tags would have not only been $12M (at least, this could balloon with incentives) cheaper than the his $81M guarantee. With $18M dead money in the 3rd year if they cut him. They actually made a significant wager and really an unnecessary risk on him. They essentially wagered 3 years when it made total sense given his history (performance and injury) to wager 1.

If Jones wanted more security the Giants like any team using their negotiating leverage properly should have held an extremely hard line at that 2X franchise tag amount.

I don't understand how it could be categorized as anything less than a significant wager at ~18% of the cap. Throw in the fact that we gave away the optionality while also guaranteeing more money than that route and it is fairly definitionally a massive bet and risk. I'm hoping they are right about him taking a step forward, they have to be. If they aren't it is just a huge unforced error and pretty embarrassing for them. I don't know how anyone can downplay that


Embarrassing? Don't you think that's a little bit much? Re-signing your own developed QB who the staff know better than anyone, to essentially a 2 year deal is embarrassing now?

You know what is embarrassing? Watching Geno Smith turn into a star SOMEWHERE else. Watching Sam Darnold do the same, SOMEONE where else, and you just watch that happen with SF.

I love how fans and writers make it sound so easy. Yeah just let the QB walk...we can find another one...oh wait....don't let him go unless you pay him EXACTLY what I think he should get...

Right.
It’s disingenuous to not include  
UConn4523 : 5/25/2023 12:52 pm : link
the upside of the deal if Jones works out. It would be an extraordinary financial win.
lemme guess  
blueblood : 5/25/2023 12:53 pm : link
Daniel Jones only has 15TDs, was overpaid, over drafted, blah blah blah.. Giants wasted money blah blah blah...
anyone who mocked the Giants for drafting Jones at 6  
djm : 5/25/2023 12:53 pm : link
then mocked fans and NYG for believing in Jones in 2022 should stop talking about Daniel Jones. Just admit you were wrong, no crime there, and move on.

Djm  
UConn4523 : 5/25/2023 12:54 pm : link
the downsides of moving on are always glossed over. It’s really strange.
RE: It’s disingenuous to not include  
djm : 5/25/2023 12:57 pm : link
In comment 16123130 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
the upside of the deal if Jones works out. It would be an extraordinary financial win.



Oh wait...REALLY NOW?

I tried to say this months back that if the Giants did in fact utilize the option deal for 23, that they might have to pay Jones even more money when he hit FA in 2024. I was yelled at as usual.

Giants will rip that DJ deal up before it expires and pay him even more money. You heard it here first.
...  
christian : 5/25/2023 1:05 pm : link
The incentives and escalators in the deal actually push him into the top 10 in AAV on a per year basis if he does well.

Unless he absolutely demolishes the league, the deal is calibrated to pay him commensurate with his performance.

At a top side of 49M a year, he'd have to be elite to outplay his deal.
Yawn.  
Klaatu : 5/25/2023 1:11 pm : link
Pick your 53 and go play some games.
RE: RE: RE: If the Jones deal  
NoGainDayne : 5/25/2023 1:14 pm : link
In comment 16123128 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 16123122 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:


In comment 16123101 ElitoCanton said:


Quote:


doesn't work out this year, they can get out very easily. They have not wagered much. And they tagged Barkley. They still haven't committed to him long term. Every other move they made was either reasonable for the short term or an investment in the future. To way they've wagered any of the future is ludicrous.



It would have been much easier to "get out" of the Franchise tag. And two franchise tags would have not only been $12M (at least, this could balloon with incentives) cheaper than the his $81M guarantee. With $18M dead money in the 3rd year if they cut him. They actually made a significant wager and really an unnecessary risk on him. They essentially wagered 3 years when it made total sense given his history (performance and injury) to wager 1.

If Jones wanted more security the Giants like any team using their negotiating leverage properly should have held an extremely hard line at that 2X franchise tag amount.

I don't understand how it could be categorized as anything less than a significant wager at ~18% of the cap. Throw in the fact that we gave away the optionality while also guaranteeing more money than that route and it is fairly definitionally a massive bet and risk. I'm hoping they are right about him taking a step forward, they have to be. If they aren't it is just a huge unforced error and pretty embarrassing for them. I don't know how anyone can downplay that



Embarrassing? Don't you think that's a little bit much? Re-signing your own developed QB who the staff know better than anyone, to essentially a 2 year deal is embarrassing now?

You know what is embarrassing? Watching Geno Smith turn into a star SOMEWHERE else. Watching Sam Darnold do the same, SOMEONE where else, and you just watch that happen with SF.

I love how fans and writers make it sound so easy. Yeah just let the QB walk...we can find another one...oh wait....don't let him go unless you pay him EXACTLY what I think he should get...

Right.


I didn't say the deal was embarrassing at all now. I said it would be if they turned out to be wrong about his ability to take a step forward. And yeah it is a massive investment for a guy with one above average year.

The logical thing was the tag, it was a big risk not to. They 100% look very smart if they are right about him but look very dumb if they are wrong.

That is the nature of a big bet that carries a high risk that there were actually easy mechanisms allowing you to avoid that risk.

But this is inherent to where my (and others) critiques of it lie. Most smart decision makers favor process over outcome. To me regardless of the outcome this has process flaws in a deal mired in big performance and injury risks. You take big, unnecessary risks and that is just the fair and logical price. You look like a genius if you hit and it is embarrassing if you are wrong. I do not think it is even a slight bit to much, it is pretty much a standard assessment practice.
The tag  
ElitoCanton : 5/25/2023 1:16 pm : link
would have meant another year with very little improvement to the roster. But keep glossing over that.
The WR1 is a fair  
Lines of Scrimmage : 5/25/2023 1:26 pm : link
knock but they added Waller to help offset that while also adding WR's to the team.

If the OL does its part and becomes a top 10 unit then both Jones and Barkley will be worth it imv. Last year the Giants had a bottom 10 unit.

They made significant investments in the D which I expect to be a very good unit but will need to stay healthy.

You can only do so much each offseason and a lot of the team improvement is going to come from many young players who were already on the roster taking steps (some big ones) forward as players.

This is the classic “glass half  
Dave on the UWS : 5/25/2023 1:36 pm : link
empty” take. He’s entitled to his opinion.
RE: Djm  
Essex : 5/25/2023 1:43 pm : link
In comment 16123133 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
the downsides of moving on are always glossed over. It’s really strange.

I am not saying that I agree with this or that we are in this position, but when you are drafting 25th and you have to overpay your QB that is the definition of being in QB hell. In other words, if you are paying for a non-championship qb or starting over without any good options (draft pick or FA) then that is not ideal. I think it is a fair take to say the Giants did that--I think we can win a championship with Jones, but I can understand people thinking we cant. You never want to be in QB hell.
No it isn’t  
UConn4523 : 5/25/2023 1:50 pm : link
and it’s only an overpay if he doesn’t perform and if he underperforms we have an out. And if the QB being championship worthy is the qualifier then there’s a whole bunch of teams in QB hell (an overused term IMO).

What teams are in QB hell? Not many IMO. The years of locking yourself into a Matt Ryan for many years seem to be over.
...  
christian : 5/25/2023 1:52 pm : link
If Jones fizzles, they can designate him a post-June 1 cut, and account for the remainder of his signing bonus in 2 installments of 9M.

In this downside scenario, they pay him 82M for two years and walk away. This isn't a tragedy, it's a calculated risk.

I thought Jones would get closer to 75M guaranteed. But Team Jones gave 2 effectively non-guaranteed year in exchange for more upfront cash.

I still think the Giants won, because there is no new guaranteed money on years 3 & 4.
RE: No it isn’t  
Essex : 5/25/2023 2:03 pm : link
In comment 16123165 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
and it’s only an overpay if he doesn’t perform and if he underperforms we have an out. And if the QB being championship worthy is the qualifier then there’s a whole bunch of teams in QB hell (an overused term IMO).

What teams are in QB hell? Not many IMO. The years of locking yourself into a Matt Ryan for many years seem to be over.

QB hell is when the downside and the upsides are both losing props. You can definitely make the argument that was the case with our decision with Jones in that we did not have a good decision to make, especially for the near future. I wouldn't make that argument, but it is definitely a supportable argument. The only caveat is that we can extricate after two years which is not such a bad thing and takes hell out of the equation.
I May be in the Minority  
Lambuth_Special : 5/25/2023 2:08 pm : link
But I'm fine if the Giants max out as a 10-7-type team with 2nd round exits and then move on from Jones after 3 or 4 years.

I would like this franchise and regime to prove they can string together a couple of winning seasons before we even talk Superbowl. Historically, the Giants have been so boom or bust, and I think they got suckered into lazy thinking during the last boom period (ie just get Eli into the playoffs and he'll go on a run).

It would be great if Schoen/Daboll could construct a long, sustainable team identity that can survive changes in personnel, adapt as the league changes, and stay competitive and avoid lengthy rebuild periods. Basically what the Chiefs and Eagles have done for the past decade.
I'm pretty sure Barnwell is a Giants fan  
BlackLight : 5/25/2023 2:08 pm : link
but I've been reading him for years, and I've always thought he was too quick to err on the side of the pessimism with his team analysis in order to appear "objective."

Personally, I do worry that fans are overrating the team a bit. A fair amount of good luck went into last year's playoff run. This year's team is unquestionably better, but we can't count on catching all the same breaks again, so the roster improvements might not necessarily show up in the win/loss column or in a repeat playoff berth.

RE: RE: RE: …  
Eric on Li : 5/25/2023 2:09 pm : link
In comment 16123049 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16123007 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


in a year where there were some decent ILB's at a lower price point and their own reliable starter i think there's a fair argument that was the safer play just by virtue of 2 swings vs 1. doesn't mean that will end up correct. if okereke has a pierce/boley type 3-5 year run here he will probably be worth it.



I liked the work Brown did on the pro scouting side last year, so I trust that the reason they went over slot on Okereke is because they project a higher ceiling. But these are the moves that separate the men from the boys on team construction.


i dont know how to parse what was done by brown or anyone else but i agree, going from bad to good is different and more difficult than going from good to great.

we have good reasons to be optimistic with this group but getting service-ableness out of richie james and feliciano and ward is one thing. getting real impact out of okereke and someone like Campbell this year has a different set of challenges more similar to what we saw with glowinski, who was probably their most disappointing move relative to cost and expectations last year. someone really likes ex-colts.
Fine  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 5/25/2023 2:20 pm : link
I believe a lot more in Schoen/Daboll than Bill Barnwell.
RE: I've seen numerous critiques of the Jones deal  
kickoff : 5/25/2023 2:31 pm : link
In comment 16123082 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
just completely disregarded here. Arguments around it being a good deal "if they are right" about Jones, completely disregards sound risk management and asset valuation principles.

There wasn't a good argument to be made for Jones to be paid more than Geno.

There wasn't a good argument to be made they he should get a cent more than $69M guaranteed for the first two years, the cost of 2, 1 year option franchise tags. Which is really what it is for and the logical approach for a player with so much risk involved. With 1 above average season and the 2 being poor at the most expensive position. Jones not taking a step forward makes it difficult for us to win for 3 seasons. ($20M dead money is an out but it isn't really a winning formula)

The central arguments around not giving Jones the franchise tag seemed to be around offending him. And I can't understand what is so offensive about getting a 1 year contract as a top 5 player while never sniffing that level of production.

On the flip side there seemed to be no concern about franchising Barkley has played at an all-pro level.

The issue isn't as much about the Jones deal as much as it is about Jones strong arming the Giants, preying on his clear knowledge of their desperation to stay out of the cellar. The agent firing said a lot about that. And the level of leverage he had and the way he played it was reminiscent of the negotiating ineptitude of Leo Williams.

When Barkley and Lawrence announced their holdouts I googled NFL player holdouts 2023 and just found an article on those 2 and 2022 holdouts. This is a concerning development.

Benchmarking to the market value of something is not just about that contract, it could very easily ripple out. Okereke was an overpay as well (I do like the player though).

There is nothing not to like about JS and BD. But for the life of me I don't know how people around here don't want to act like Joe Judge was the savior after 6-10, McAdoo as well after almost as strong of a 1st season as BD.

And this same leadership group in a flash went from a Superbowl team to a laughing stock when TC left the building.

Under DG and a lot of the same leaders (and to the best of my knowledge largely the same contract/cap experts) we heard the cap doesn't matter, one deal isn't going to break you etc.

Last season was fantastic. I would love to see it continue but I don't know how everyone can give so much benefit of the doubt so quickly to the Mara leadership group that has just been so completely inept for so long.

The Jones/Barkley handling is concerning. The guy producing elite numbers for you, you are grinding in the negotiation and talking about positional value. Well great, positional value is about benchmarking pay. And I don't know how two guys on the same offense, the one whose performance is objectively better relative to his peers you are having a clearly sharp edged conversation around value while the other guy you are making excuses for based on the same talent around him and ignoring clear negotiating benchmarks.

It took a truly extraordinary amount of failure for Mara to even consider letting in outside opinions but all of the same brain trust that torpedoed this franchise is still in that building. If Jones takes a step forward, everyone including me will be very pleased. If he doesn't, no more excuses about the talent around him and the fans should be putting heat on the Maras not JS if we don't want to end up right back in the gutter again.

I'm 74 yrs old and been a Giant fan for 60 yrs. I go back to Charley Connerly and YA Title, seen all the Qbs between them and DJ. I think this kid has the ability to be the best of all. Yes, even Eli. I know the argument will be Eli won 2 SBs and I say give DJ a decent team and he will do the same, he's already done wonders with an inferior team. I know I'm an old fart and no expert, but this is what I see. This kid has a world of talent.
I don't know about 4th worst  
ghost718 : 5/25/2023 2:34 pm : link
but it was reminiscent of previous off seasons.

Address 1 or 2 positions via trade or free agency(usually a linebacker),and spend the remaining money in the dollar bin,add a few draft picks.Than the season comes and lean heavily on the quarterback
RE: Fine  
Del Shofner : 5/25/2023 2:42 pm : link
In comment 16123181 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
I believe a lot more in Schoen/Daboll than Bill Barnwell.


+1.

We had a very good offseason IMO. How that will translate into wins remains to be seen, for reasons others have said above. But we improved markedly at DL, ILB, WR/TE and C, all problem areas last year.
RE: RE: No it isn’t  
UConn4523 : 5/25/2023 2:55 pm : link
In comment 16123172 Essex said:
Quote:
In comment 16123165 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


and it’s only an overpay if he doesn’t perform and if he underperforms we have an out. And if the QB being championship worthy is the qualifier then there’s a whole bunch of teams in QB hell (an overused term IMO).

What teams are in QB hell? Not many IMO. The years of locking yourself into a Matt Ryan for many years seem to be over.


QB hell is when the downside and the upsides are both losing props. You can definitely make the argument that was the case with our decision with Jones in that we did not have a good decision to make, especially for the near future. I wouldn't make that argument, but it is definitely a supportable argument. The only caveat is that we can extricate after two years which is not such a bad thing and takes hell out of the equation.


This makes no sense to me, sorry. How is the upside a losing proposition?
The upside is a losing proposition  
Essex : 5/25/2023 3:10 pm : link
when you pay a QB a second contract to be competitive, at best, but is not a serious threat to win a title. Jones has been competitive at best--many think that even if he hits his upside he will never be a qb that can contend for titles. How does that not make any sense. If the ceiling on the upside is good, but not good enough and the downside is being completely uncompetitive you have literally stepped into QB hell. This is not a hard concept.
We addressed many of our issues from last season.  
Ira : 5/25/2023 3:10 pm : link
1) Bobby O and the dl we signed will improve our awful run defense.
2) Drafting Banks in the 1st round should help our pass d by the end of the season.
3) JMS will make our running attack better.
4) Waller, Campbell and Hyatt will help our intermediate and deep passing attack.

It was a good off-season for the Giants.
RE: RE: I've seen numerous critiques of the Jones deal  
NoGainDayne : 5/25/2023 3:21 pm : link
In comment 16123186 kickoff said:
Quote:
In comment 16123082 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:
I'm 74 yrs old and been a Giant fan for 60 yrs. I go back to Charley Connerly and YA Title, seen all the Qbs between them and DJ. I think this kid has the ability to be the best of all. Yes, even Eli. I know the argument will be Eli won 2 SBs and I say give DJ a decent team and he will do the same, he's already done wonders with an inferior team. I know I'm an old fart and no expert, but this is what I see. This kid has a world of talent.


I don't understand this at all. Just the single data point of that Eagles game, the most important game of his career that horrible game where he showed a lot of the same decision making problems that have plagued him is highly concerning.

After his rookie year I never saw Eli look that bad especially in such a high stakes game against a rival. Eli had some low talent receiver groups around him.

It feels very much that both fans and the Giants consistently describe DJ as better than his production, consistently, always. That has been the only consistent thing in his career. When his production moves up the descriptions and expectations don't match but consistently move far beyond what he has consistently demonstrated on the field.

It feels like it stems from so much losing and wanting to see things as better than they are. Nobody ever did this with Eli and he showed way more. The conversation always was around him pretty much being fairly evaluated or even undervalued.

It feels pretty insulting to Eli to even put DJ in the same conversation as him.
A couple things here  
GiantsFan84 : 5/25/2023 3:38 pm : link
unrelated to the post but I do believe barnwell is a giants fan

He’s way off base here. This team had a lot of holes going into this off-season. There is a reason Daboll won coach of the year. He took a team w no business making the playoffs to the second round of the playoffs. Knowing this they weren’t going to be able to fix every hole on the roster. Also at some point players drafted last year need to play and develop (Flott, Neal, Ezeudu, Beavers)

This team now has a solid d-line rotation. Yea they are one edge player short and they are thin there but they can’t solve every hole w finite resources. Linebacker is significantly improved w Okereke and Beavers coming back. And playing against the Eagles MLB becomes a premium position. CB is better short term and long term w Banks. Is it perfect? No. But they also need to see what they have in Flott and Robinson. Safety needs work next to McKinney but once again they weren’t going to fix everything and Love was a JAG in my eyes.

Offensive line is better w JMS and they need improvement from young players already on the roster. RB is deeper but status quo. Jones is back so status quo. This team now has like 9 NFL quality receivers when last year they had 1 to start the year. Yes they need a #1 but they aren’t easy to come by and nobody got a new #1 this year. And they added the second best receiving tight end in the league.

It’s not a perfect team. But they weren’t going to be w all their holes. But they had a very good off-season.
RE: The upside is a losing proposition  
UConn4523 : 5/25/2023 4:07 pm : link
In comment 16123206 Essex said:
Quote:
when you pay a QB a second contract to be competitive, at best, but is not a serious threat to win a title. Jones has been competitive at best--many think that even if he hits his upside he will never be a qb that can contend for titles. How does that not make any sense. If the ceiling on the upside is good, but not good enough and the downside is being completely uncompetitive you have literally stepped into QB hell. This is not a hard concept.


Because it’s just saying things and is ultimately subjective. I don’t care what people think his ceiling is, I care what Daboll thinks his ceiling is.
RE: RE: RE: I've seen numerous critiques of the Jones deal  
kickoff : 5/25/2023 4:48 pm : link
In comment 16123212 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
In comment 16123186 kickoff said:


Quote:


In comment 16123082 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:
I'm 74 yrs old and been a Giant fan for 60 yrs. I go back to Charley Connerly and YA Title, seen all the Qbs between them and DJ. I think this kid has the ability to be the best of all. Yes, even Eli. I know the argument will be Eli won 2 SBs and I say give DJ a decent team and he will do the same, he's already done wonders with an inferior team. I know I'm an old fart and no expert, but this is what I see. This kid has a world of talent.



I don't understand this at all. Just the single data point of that Eagles game, the most important game of his career that horrible game where he showed a lot of the same decision making problems that have plagued him is highly concerning.

After his rookie year I never saw Eli look that bad especially in such a high stakes game against a rival. Eli had some low talent receiver groups around him.

It feels very much that both fans and the Giants consistently describe DJ as better than his production, consistently, always. That has been the only consistent thing in his career. When his production moves up the descriptions and expectations don't match but consistently move far beyond what he has consistently demonstrated on the field.

It feels like it stems from so much losing and wanting to see things as better than they are. Nobody ever did this with Eli and he showed way more. The conversation always was around him pretty much being fairly evaluated or even undervalued.

It feels pretty insulting to Eli to even put DJ in the same conversation as him.

Using the Eagle game as evaluation of DJ is misleading and unfair. Their talent is so much greater than ours it was a mismatch at every single position. We had all pros in that game that were overmatched, does that mean they're no good, did receivers get open, did the oline play well,no. No one did. To expect DJ to overcome such domination by the Eagles is foolish.
RE: RE: RE: I've seen numerous critiques of the Jones deal  
BlackLight : 5/25/2023 4:49 pm : link
In comment 16123212 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
In comment 16123186 kickoff said:


Quote:


In comment 16123082 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:
I'm 74 yrs old and been a Giant fan for 60 yrs. I go back to Charley Connerly and YA Title, seen all the Qbs between them and DJ. I think this kid has the ability to be the best of all. Yes, even Eli. I know the argument will be Eli won 2 SBs and I say give DJ a decent team and he will do the same, he's already done wonders with an inferior team. I know I'm an old fart and no expert, but this is what I see. This kid has a world of talent.



I don't understand this at all. Just the single data point of that Eagles game, the most important game of his career that horrible game where he showed a lot of the same decision making problems that have plagued him is highly concerning.

After his rookie year I never saw Eli look that bad especially in such a high stakes game against a rival. Eli had some low talent receiver groups around him.

It feels very much that both fans and the Giants consistently describe DJ as better than his production, consistently, always. That has been the only consistent thing in his career. When his production moves up the descriptions and expectations don't match but consistently move far beyond what he has consistently demonstrated on the field.

It feels like it stems from so much losing and wanting to see things as better than they are. Nobody ever did this with Eli and he showed way more. The conversation always was around him pretty much being fairly evaluated or even undervalued.

It feels pretty insulting to Eli to even put DJ in the same conversation as him.


All I know is that until Eli won his first Super Bowl, I wasn't convinced that he would ever be "The Guy." Something about the eye test wasn't working for me. But then he did win one, and the facts became impossible to ignore.

I don't suffer from the same lack of confidence in DJ. Something about the way the guy showed up last season makes it seem undeniable that he's going to win a Super Bowl someday, provided he gets the right people around him. And I think he will.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I've seen numerous critiques of the Jones deal  
bigblue5611 : 5/25/2023 4:52 pm : link
In comment 16123246 kickoff said:
Quote:
In comment 16123212 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:


In comment 16123186 kickoff said:


Quote:


In comment 16123082 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:
I'm 74 yrs old and been a Giant fan for 60 yrs. I go back to Charley Connerly and YA Title, seen all the Qbs between them and DJ. I think this kid has the ability to be the best of all. Yes, even Eli. I know the argument will be Eli won 2 SBs and I say give DJ a decent team and he will do the same, he's already done wonders with an inferior team. I know I'm an old fart and no expert, but this is what I see. This kid has a world of talent.



I don't understand this at all. Just the single data point of that Eagles game, the most important game of his career that horrible game where he showed a lot of the same decision making problems that have plagued him is highly concerning.

After his rookie year I never saw Eli look that bad especially in such a high stakes game against a rival. Eli had some low talent receiver groups around him.

It feels very much that both fans and the Giants consistently describe DJ as better than his production, consistently, always. That has been the only consistent thing in his career. When his production moves up the descriptions and expectations don't match but consistently move far beyond what he has consistently demonstrated on the field.

It feels like it stems from so much losing and wanting to see things as better than they are. Nobody ever did this with Eli and he showed way more. The conversation always was around him pretty much being fairly evaluated or even undervalued.

It feels pretty insulting to Eli to even put DJ in the same conversation as him.


Using the Eagle game as evaluation of DJ is misleading and unfair. Their talent is so much greater than ours it was a mismatch at every single position. We had all pros in that game that were overmatched, does that mean they're no good, did receivers get open, did the oline play well,no. No one did. To expect DJ to overcome such domination by the Eagles is foolish.

^this. Also, NGD, did you forget the 4 INT and multiple pick 6 game Eli had against the Vikings in 07? People seem to forget that the majority of fans were ready to run Eli out of town up until the end of the regular season that year despite having made the playoffs previously, leading the team to winning records, etc. He also had a much better supporting cast than DJ has had.
**This is not a knock on Eli and not a direct comparison of the two.
DJ  
kickoff : 5/25/2023 4:55 pm : link
I keep hearing about his decision making ability, but Daboll keeps saying he makes good decisions, who's right?
RE: DJ  
BlackLight : 5/25/2023 5:01 pm : link
In comment 16123257 kickoff said:
Quote:
I keep hearing about his decision making ability, but Daboll keeps saying he makes good decisions, who's right?


If there's an issue there, it's with him leaving chunk plays on the field when they're there to be had and opting for gaining yards with safer options.

One thing you don't generally see is him winging the ball into traffic or trying to force a throw that isn't there.
Bill Barnwell complains about the Giants even as the parade is going  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 5/25/2023 5:11 pm : link
down the Canyon of Heroes. He’s the most negative Giants fan I’ve ever read, which is saying a lot on BBI. This isn’t even a comment on the article, which I read. He just never has anything positive to say about the Giants going back to his time on footballoutsiders.com
...  
christian : 5/25/2023 7:10 pm : link
I keep saying this, but the Giants leased the car on Jones. And nothing will illustrate this more than when Herbert lands a mega deal this Summer, with plenty of real guaranteed money in the 3rd and probably 4th year.

And I'm not saying Herbert has accomplished more or done more with less. But that's what commitment looks like. It's when a team says you're going to be here 3,4,5 years.

Because when it comes down to it, Jones has accomplished more in one key area than Herbert -- and that's get it done in a playoff game.

That the Giants gave him a contract with a lot of conditions -- makes it not buying the car.
christian.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/25/2023 7:17 pm : link
It is kinda wild that Jones has more postseason wins than Herbert when one thinks about it considering the love Herbert gets nationally. And I'm a huge Herbert fan & would take him over DJ, but it's worth noting.
...  
christian : 5/25/2023 7:32 pm : link
That playoff win probably earned Jones 50M dollars, because without it he's getting tagged. No way he gets 82M guaranteed without a signature win.

Herbert is going to exceed that by a wide margin, and his biggest moment is getting caught from behind in embarrassing fashion.

That says something about management's commitment to Jones. He's got plenty to prove.
RE: we didn't improve the defense?  
joeinpa : 5/25/2023 8:11 pm : link
In comment 16123116 djm said:
Quote:
we added a vet star LB and two solid vet DLs. I won't even count the draft as every team drafts but we added 3 legit players for the defense. The Giants were never going to allocate or add a stud star passrusher in FA as they have 2 guys that they like in Ojulari and Thibs and FA passrushers are tough to come by anyway.

If you don't like Jones you're never going to buy in to what the Giants are doing so you might as well start and end every article with that and save everyone the time needed to read the rest.

People won't budge off the Jones nonsense until he wins a super bowl which is dumb stupid ass logic but it is what it is.


You nailed it.
RE: RE: I've seen numerous critiques of the Jones deal  
joeinpa : 5/25/2023 8:15 pm : link
In comment 16123186 kickoff said:
Quote:
In comment 16123082 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:


just completely disregarded here. Arguments around it being a good deal "if they are right" about Jones, completely disregards sound risk management and asset valuation principles.

There wasn't a good argument to be made for Jones to be paid more than Geno.

There wasn't a good argument to be made they he should get a cent more than $69M guaranteed for the first two years, the cost of 2, 1 year option franchise tags. Which is really what it is for and the logical approach for a player with so much risk involved. With 1 above average season and the 2 being poor at the most expensive position. Jones not taking a step forward makes it difficult for us to win for 3 seasons. ($20M dead money is an out but it isn't really a winning formula)

The central arguments around not giving Jones the franchise tag seemed to be around offending him. And I can't understand what is so offensive about getting a 1 year contract as a top 5 player while never sniffing that level of production.

On the flip side there seemed to be no concern about franchising Barkley has played at an all-pro level.

The issue isn't as much about the Jones deal as much as it is about Jones strong arming the Giants, preying on his clear knowledge of their desperation to stay out of the cellar. The agent firing said a lot about that. And the level of leverage he had and the way he played it was reminiscent of the negotiating ineptitude of Leo Williams.

When Barkley and Lawrence announced their holdouts I googled NFL player holdouts 2023 and just found an article on those 2 and 2022 holdouts. This is a concerning development.

Benchmarking to the market value of something is not just about that contract, it could very easily ripple out. Okereke was an overpay as well (I do like the player though).

There is nothing not to like about JS and BD. But for the life of me I don't know how people around here don't want to act like Joe Judge was the savior after 6-10, McAdoo as well after almost as strong of a 1st season as BD.

And this same leadership group in a flash went from a Superbowl team to a laughing stock when TC left the building.

Under DG and a lot of the same leaders (and to the best of my knowledge largely the same contract/cap experts) we heard the cap doesn't matter, one deal isn't going to break you etc.

Last season was fantastic. I would love to see it continue but I don't know how everyone can give so much benefit of the doubt so quickly to the Mara leadership group that has just been so completely inept for so long.

The Jones/Barkley handling is concerning. The guy producing elite numbers for you, you are grinding in the negotiation and talking about positional value. Well great, positional value is about benchmarking pay. And I don't know how two guys on the same offense, the one whose performance is objectively better relative to his peers you are having a clearly sharp edged conversation around value while the other guy you are making excuses for based on the same talent around him and ignoring clear negotiating benchmarks.

It took a truly extraordinary amount of failure for Mara to even consider letting in outside opinions but all of the same brain trust that torpedoed this franchise is still in that building. If Jones takes a step forward, everyone including me will be very pleased. If he doesn't, no more excuses about the talent around him and the fans should be putting heat on the Maras not JS if we don't want to end up right back in the gutter again.


I'm 74 yrs old and been a Giant fan for 60 yrs. I go back to Charley Connerly and YA Title, seen all the Qbs between them and DJ. I think this kid has the ability to be the best of all. Yes, even Eli. I know the argument will be Eli won 2 SBs and I say give DJ a decent team and he will do the same, he's already done wonders with an inferior team. I know I'm an old fart and no expert, but this is what I see. This kid has a world of talent.


Kickoff, been a fan since 56. Conerly and Tittle were very good athletes. But I agree, Jones is the best athlete to ever play this position for the Giants
RE: I've seen numerous critiques of the Jones deal  
joeinpa : 5/25/2023 8:24 pm : link
In comment 16123082 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
just completely disregarded here. Arguments around it being a good deal "if they are right" about Jones, completely disregards sound risk management and asset valuation principles.

There wasn't a good argument to be made for Jones to be paid more than Geno.

There wasn't a good argument to be made they he should get a cent more than $69M guaranteed for the first two years, the cost of 2, 1 year option franchise tags. Which is really what it is for and the logical approach for a player with so much risk involved. With 1 above average season and the 2 being poor at the most expensive position. Jones not taking a step forward makes it difficult for us to win for 3 seasons. ($20M dead money is an out but it isn't really a winning formula)

The central arguments around not giving Jones the franchise tag seemed to be around offending him. And I can't understand what is so offensive about getting a 1 year contract as a top 5 player while never sniffing that level of production.

On the flip side there seemed to be no concern about franchising Barkley has played at an all-pro level.

The issue isn't as much about the Jones deal as much as it is about Jones strong arming the Giants, preying on his clear knowledge of their desperation to stay out of the cellar. The agent firing said a lot about that. And the level of leverage he had and the way he played it was reminiscent of the negotiating ineptitude of Leo Williams.

When Barkley and Lawrence announced their holdouts I googled NFL player holdouts 2023 and just found an article on those 2 and 2022 holdouts. This is a concerning development.

Benchmarking to the market value of something is not just about that contract, it could very easily ripple out. Okereke was an overpay as well (I do like the player though).

There is nothing not to like about JS and BD. But for the life of me I don't know how people around here don't want to act like Joe Judge was the savior after 6-10, McAdoo as well after almost as strong of a 1st season as BD.

And this same leadership group in a flash went from a Superbowl team to a laughing stock when TC left the building.

Under DG and a lot of the same leaders (and to the best of my knowledge largely the same contract/cap experts) we heard the cap doesn't matter, one deal isn't going to break you etc.

Last season was fantastic. I would love to see it continue but I don't know how everyone can give so much benefit of the doubt so quickly to the Mara leadership group that has just been so completely inept for so long.

The Jones/Barkley handling is concerning. The guy producing elite numbers for you, you are grinding in the negotiation and talking about positional value. Well great, positional value is about benchmarking pay. And I don't know how two guys on the same offense, the one whose performance is objectively better relative to his peers you are having a clearly sharp edged conversation around value while the other guy you are making excuses for based on the same talent around him and ignoring clear negotiating benchmarks.

It took a truly extraordinary amount of failure for Mara to even consider letting in outside opinions but all of the same brain trust that torpedoed this franchise is still in that building. If Jones takes a step forward, everyone including me will be very pleased. If he doesn't, no more excuses about the talent around him and the fans should be putting heat on the Maras not JS if we don't want to end up right back in the gutter again.


Not sure I m correct here, but are you implying the Jones’ contract was more Mara than Schoen.

If so, I just don’t see it that way
RE: DJ  
PatersonPlank : 5/25/2023 8:36 pm : link
In comment 16123257 kickoff said:
Quote:
I keep hearing about his decision making ability, but Daboll keeps saying he makes good decisions, who's right?


Obviously BBI is right
Between the Philly guy yesterday  
Joe Beckwith : 5/25/2023 9:35 pm : link
and this article today, it’s a dump on DJs contract theme….and essentially the continuation of the Dump on DJ mantra.
Won't click the bait  
thefan : 5/26/2023 12:41 am : link
but we addressed the poor run defense with solid additions to the front 7. Then we drafted a highly athletic CB in round 1. That's his opinion or maybe he wants click, who knows other than we'll know what we have by week 6 if not sooner.
Schoen and Daboll have a roadmap for this team.  
Big Blue Blogger : 5/26/2023 5:17 am : link
Their offseason moves reflect that roadmap, and constitute progress in fulfilling their vision. The vision may be misguided. The roadmap may be poorly conceived. Or both may be fine, and misfortune could still derail the whole enterprise. At least they have a plan, and the plan is plausible if you give them reasonable credit for judging talent and projecting growth.

As for Daniel Jones, the same regime that passed on his fifth-year option was won over sufficiently to invest two more seasons in him. That says a lot to me. He'll never be Patrick Mahomes. He might not even be Jalen Hurts, and comparing him to Eli Manning is pointless because their similarities are superficial (team, height, Cutcliffe, blandness, etc.). Schoen and Daboll think they can win with him. So maybe he just needs to be Daniel Jones.
RE: christian.  
Spiciest Memelord : 5/26/2023 11:19 am : link
In comment 16123296 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
It is kinda wild that Jones has more postseason wins than Herbert when one thinks about it considering the love Herbert gets nationally. And I'm a huge Herbert fan & would take him over DJ, but it's worth noting.


Herbert will probably continue to come up small and embarrass himself in the playoffs, its a Chargers tradition.
Bill Barnwell is a quintessential example  
Mike from SI : 5/26/2023 11:28 am : link
of someone with a 110 IQ who thinks he has a 140 IQ.

Also, it's odd how much he shits on the Giants considering he's a fan. Maybe he's accidentally overcompensating?
 
ryanmkeane : 5/27/2023 3:28 am : link
They won a playoff game, improved the roster in FA and the draft, and didn’t spend a whole lot of money and didn’t make any “crazy” draft picks or seem to really ignore any positions.

Also, the contract for Jones was universally applauded as being not only fair value but not crippling if he doesn’t improve.

I’m not sure you can make Barnwell’s argument unless he’s trying to say that Jones stinks so they should just tear it down. Which, would be idiotic.
 
ryanmkeane : 5/27/2023 3:32 am : link
The Jones argument/talking point is so tiresome. He had a really solid year and looked awesome at times. He made a pretty solid leap and we hope he can make another one.

I cannot believe that people still think he can’t get significantly better, considering the weapons he’s had vs what they have on the roster now.

You could argue that the Giants had the worst group of receivers in all of football and they were a win away from the NFC championship game. You could also argue that Waller is the best weapon Jones has ever had at pass catcher. That’s somewhat hilarious.
 
ryanmkeane : 5/27/2023 3:34 am : link
It took Jones all of about 9 seconds to start throwing deep to Waller in practice. Think about how he’s never had the chance to do that with anyone the first 4 years of his career.
RE: RE: christian.  
Big Blue '56 : 5/27/2023 5:57 am : link
In comment 16123578 Spiciest Memelord said:
Quote:
In comment 16123296 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:


Quote:


It is kinda wild that Jones has more postseason wins than Herbert when one thinks about it considering the love Herbert gets nationally. And I'm a huge Herbert fan & would take him over DJ, but it's worth noting.



Herbert will probably continue to come up small and embarrass himself in the playoffs, its a Chargers tradition.


As will Rodgers with the Jets
RE: …  
christian : 5/27/2023 7:58 am : link
In comment 16123996 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
It took Jones all of about 9 seconds to start throwing deep to Waller in practice. Think about how he’s never had the chance to do that with anyone the first 4 years of his career.


Darius Slayton is a much better deep ball target than Waller.

The Giants ability to stretch the field is much more dependent on Jones not being under constant pressure during real games.
RE: RE: …  
Big Blue '56 : 5/27/2023 8:29 am : link
In comment 16124005 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16123996 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


It took Jones all of about 9 seconds to start throwing deep to Waller in practice. Think about how he’s never had the chance to do that with anyone the first 4 years of his career.



Darius Slayton is a much better deep ball target than Waller.

The Giants ability to stretch the field is much more dependent on Jones not being under constant pressure during real games.


And why I hoped we’d get an actual talented C
 
ryanmkeane : 5/27/2023 10:34 am : link
You guys are overrating Slayton. If the Giants hadn’t beaten the Vikings he’s probably not on the team right now.
I don't think he's completely wrong in his assessment of the roster  
Andy in Halifax : 5/27/2023 10:34 am : link
but the grade seems like a bit harsh. Was he expecting us to fix everything all at once? The roster was pretty awful when he took over.

The Jones debate is tiresome but he's paid like a QB who's about 10-12th best and.. that's pretty fair. But whatever.

Defensively... there was NO WAY we were addressing every single issue on the defensive side of the ball but we added two good run defenders, a 1st round CB and a FA linebacker that really isn't a "bad" contract at all. We need more help on defense but we were never finishing that process in one offseason but I thought JS did a great job addressing key areas (run defense, ILB).

I also find his argument a bit contradictory... criticizes us for running it back but then criticizes us for adding Okereke on defense?
RE: …  
christian : 5/27/2023 11:24 am : link
In comment 16124055 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
You guys are overrating Slayton. If the Giants hadn’t beaten the Vikings he’s probably not on the team right now.


No one is overrating Slayton. You made the silly claim Jones never had a deep threat in practice. For all of his many shortcomings, Slayton is one of the bigger play speed threats in the NFL.
While they don't have a  
Matt M. : 5/27/2023 4:55 pm : link
true #1 WR, they added a few guys who can be play makers. We are much deeper at WR with guys who can line up at multiple positions, plus we added Waller.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/27/2023 6:59 pm : link
We don't have a true #1 WR per se, but Waller is going to be our best receiving target, ala like Gronk was in New England. And no, I'm not comparing Waller to Gronk, but one gets what I'm getting at with the comparsion.
...  
christian : 5/27/2023 7:47 pm : link
Waller gives them the option to switch between 12 and 11 personnel based on the match up. This is what Kafka learned in KC. Waller can play TE and WR.

The goal of this offense is to get the ball to the freest target and turn short air yards into long yards after the catch.

Kafka did a great job the 2nd half of the year scheming guys open in stack and drag looks. There are a couple of great video break downs online about this.

I very much look forward to how the cat and mouse game Kafka will play with Waller and Slayton.
Bradberry  
Lines of Scrimmage : 5/28/2023 7:52 am : link
said they studied what Buffalo did and were prepared in the playoff game resulting in a interception. That short passing game was a gimmick resulting from offensive deficiencies.

Plenty of stuff in the post games in season; "Daboll sees Jones is the problem and not the WR's", "Jones can be replaced with a 2nd/3rd round pick", etc.

Giants added a upper tier pass option. They added a Center in round 2 addressing the the two biggest issues on offense. A few WR's and another RB.

Hopefully enough to stay ahead of the chains with a pretty balanced offense.

Most issues were rooted in the poor OL against the better fronts. Improved skill guys will help in these situations which will happen regardless but hopefully now less often The OL will dictate this imv.
RE: Bradberry  
christian : 5/28/2023 8:13 am : link
In comment 16124239 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
said they studied what Buffalo did and were prepared in the playoff game resulting in a interception. That short passing game was a gimmick resulting from offensive deficiencies.


You have lowest understanding of football of any poster in the history of BBI. We are all the worse off for your contributions.

I'll set you up with an NFL+ account so you can review the short passing game gimmick offense of the Chiefs. You pay specific attention to their intended air yards per attempt, how they stack and free their WRs, and how they move Kelce.

No need to reply. Just take it in.
No need  
Lines of Scrimmage : 5/28/2023 8:29 am : link
to take your points in. You should go back to when I started posting and see how many posters have complimented me on my posts. Not something I look for but plenty of evidence. The very few who seem to follow me around with your type of comments are for me fools so not something I am concerned with.

Nothing I said was out of line. Anyone with some basic football knowledge understands that the short passing game was a result of the poor OL and skill guys. Go back and listen to Collingsworth in the second WFT game.
RE: No need  
christian : 5/28/2023 8:39 am : link
In comment 16124243 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
to take your points in. You should go back to when I started posting and see how many posters have complimented me on my posts. Not something I look for but plenty of evidence.


You take that back right now, or I'm emailing the moderators for you spreading lies. I mean it.
RE: RE: No need  
Lines of Scrimmage : 5/28/2023 11:00 am : link
In comment 16124244 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16124243 Lines of Scrimmage said:


Quote:


to take your points in. You should go back to when I started posting and see how many posters have complimented me on my posts. Not something I look for but plenty of evidence.



You take that back right now, or I'm emailing the moderators for you spreading lies. I mean it.


Go ahead.

Make sure you include the poster you have said is one of your favorites when he said "LoS is a good contributor" to start. That comment is in one of the post game rants you were on with Dumber as usual.

I won't name that poster who said that out of respect but if you are smart enough to build a clock you can figure it out.

Good luck.
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