Barnwell-NYG has 4th worse offseason in NFL

We'll see it play out.

NYG had a good draft, but it wasn't a great crop. They still need to get better at '22 weaknesses, eg stopping the run, WR, IOL. It will all hinge on Jones, and it's a significant wager/expenditure.

Barnwell is FOS..

But who was out there that we could have/should have gotten but passed on? Those guys don’t grow on trees. And when they do they cost a fortune

Lazard, Meyer, JuJu, OBJ, Woods, Thielen all went elsewhere…but I don’t think any of them are true #1 guys the Giants should have given big $$ or traded for

negative write for "clicks". HE acknowledges Hyatt was ranked as a 1st rounder by some, but then says the Giants don't have a #1. He says Jones was #6 in QBR, then says its a bad contract (even though comparatively speaking it isn't). Barkley isn't even signed yet, he will likely play on a tag. That is value for a guy who was the offense last year, and even with defenses focusing solely on him still had 1,650 yds and 11 TDs. He also lists Hyatt, Waller, Campbell, Shep, WanDale, etc, and says we should be able to get a good starting 3 from all that.

We drafted 3 guys who are impact starters for us too. I think we have done very well.

If he gave an alternative to what the Giants did I’d be interested to hear it. Getting a #1 WR would be great. But they also needed depth on the DL, depth at WR, a good CB, a good ILB, a good TE, a good center. You show me how they can get all of that and a #1 WR, I’ll listen.

They are paying him a lot over the next two seasons. I get it.

4th worst....is absolutely ridiculous.

They only lost was Love.

The pro and con of signing Jones is an opinion.....

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The cap space the Giants were supposed to be clearing last year went to Jones and Barkley, which limited what they could do to upgrade a defense that ranked 29th in DVOA last season. I liked the addition of A'Shawn Robinson to one of the league's worst rush defenses, but a four-year, $40 million deal for off-ball linebacker Bobby Okereke was too aggressive at a position where the majority of useful players settled for much smaller commitments. Schoen used the team's first-round pick on much-needed cornerback Deonte Banks, but this secondary is going to struggle against an NFC East full of imposing receivers.

call me crazy but I dont think he's totally wrong here. they could have signed pratt or tj edwards and brought back love for roughly the same $ they gave okereke. he's now a top 10 ILB by guaranteed $ and AAV right behind devondre campbell and ahead of demario davis and dre greenlaw. i like the player but he's getting paid like a pro bowler so that's a pretty weighty expectation.

the rest of his analysis is sort of pro forma - "they are overestimating last year's success and had to pay jones too much" - which could basically be written by a 3rd grader.

The Giants receiving corp is likely better just by virtue of how bad it was in 22. But they haven't necessarily brought in a true #1 that yet scares defenses. There will be a lot of reliance on a TE who hasn't really put up big number since 2020, a third-round draft pick, a second year who was injured last year, and a veteran who was a complimentary piece even before his litany of injuries. The offense really struggled last year when teams sold out to stop Barkley.

The other thing I thought was on point was his comment on Jones' production. What he did last year was very good on a rookie deal. However, if he replicates that production on his new deal, its not going to look good. He just didn't do enough in the passing game. Granted, the contract has some out clauses, so it won't be an albatross, which was smart on the Schoen's part.

Overall, I don't think he said anything inflammatory or grossly off point. A lot of this season will be based on hope for improved offensive production which could go in any number of directions.

Is more likely......

in UFA, Draft, UDFA. Now, what level of multiplier can these guys create on the football field is the question moving forward. Still got holes to fill on paper and on the field, and the arrow is pointing up, imo.

In comment 16122965 PatersonPlank said:

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negative write for "clicks". HE acknowledges Hyatt was ranked as a 1st rounder by some, but then says the Giants don't have a #1. He says Jones was #6 in QBR, then says its a bad contract (even though comparatively speaking it isn't). Barkley isn't even signed yet, he will likely play on a tag. That is value for a guy who was the offense last year, and even with defenses focusing solely on him still had 1,650 yds and 11 TDs. He also lists Hyatt, Waller, Campbell, Shep, WanDale, etc, and says we should be able to get a good starting 3 from all that. We drafted 3 guys who are impact starters for us too. I think we have done very well.

Not necessarily disagreeing, but if you are referring to the 23 draft how do you know three guys drafted are impact starters? How do we know they won't all suck? I take your point with Hyatt, yes he has some first round talent but he fell to the third round. He didn't fall there because this was an especially deep WR class either. A lot of the bravado on this board is what it has been for the past decade, hope and assuming all goes exactly as planned.

look at the roster right now compared to the roster last year at this time, it is MUCH, MUCH better.

We made a great trade for Waller, who was by far the best pass catching option who changed teams this year. Wasn't really a great crop of WRs in the draft either.

1) if Daniel Jones is a good starting QB (doesn’t have to be great, just good) it’s an amazing off-season. Because if the Giants instead let him leave, everyone ripping them for signing him would be also ripping him for letting him leave.

2) Barkley is one of the better RBs in the entire NFL. It all comes down to how much he gets paid.

It’s easy to bash both of their contracts. But how they play in 23 is all that matters

QB: Projection: marginal improvement. In '22, DJ improved greatly to land in the middle tier of QBs. That was in the first year with yet another new coaching staff/playbook and still without pass catching weapons. All of that + the OL figures to improve in '24. Is DJ elite or close? No. Could he be top 8-12? Sure.

RB: Projection: let's call this a push vs last year.

WR: Projection: Improvement. There is no pro bowler in this group, but its finally NFL caliber. There no stud, but a bunch of guys with size and in more cases, speed that should make for interesting usage by creative coaches, especially with a mobile QB, elite RB/TE.

TE: Projection: Major improvement. Not only does Waller represent the best TE we've had since Shockey but our TE2 situation is better with Bellinger going from TE1 as a rook to TE2 as a sophomore.

OL: Projection: Likely improvement. Thomas should be excellent again. JMS is a rookie but I have to think he will be better than JF. Bredeson is reliable. Wildcards are Neal and to a lesser extent, Ezeudu.

DE: Projection: Solid improvement. Added 600lbs of beef.

LB: Projection: Major improvement. Okereke is a good player, something the LB corp of '22 lacked. This is still a shallow group on the inside. On the outside, Thibs and Ojulari are an exciting young duo, particularly if AO gets his muscle flexibility in order.

CB: Projection: Major improvement. When AJax went down they were rolling out street FAs. A physically gifted RD1 pick + AJax + some development (notably a meal plan for Flott) should point to an improved unit.

S: Projection: Mixed bag. On one hand, you lose Love, a good/versatile player. On the other, hopefully McKinney does nothing but sit by the pool during the bye week. I like the slew of young safeties they have to develop (Belton, Pinnock, Owens).

1. WR - they will have Hodgins all year, added Campbell and Hyatt, possibly Crowder if he makes the team. Waller also gives them another huge receiving option
2. interior OL - they added perhaps the top C in the draft
3. CB - they added a 1st round CB and Oruwariye
4. MLB - they added one of the top MLB available in FA in Okereke
5. DT against the run - they added Robinson and Nunez-Roches

Very good offseason IMO, but hey they didn't get the sexy fantasy football names available.

Relative to positional value, Okereke was a big swing. But relative to the whole, the 21M he's guaranteed isn't a big risk.

If he flames out, people will criticize the deal but it's not a tragedy on its own. None of the deals commitments he's made are that impactful save Jones.

This whole off season comes down to whether they're right about Jones. If the best yet to come, it's a great off season. If he's the same guy as last year, it's neutral.

you can argue the talent this year is better but the record might not be better this year, as we might have overachieved/caught some breaks a bit last year.

is important but the Giants got better at bunch of different positions. They also got a lot faster.

They improved in the middle of the defense at DL and LB, they really improved at CB, they got a true center, they got a difference maker at TE, they very much upgraded their WR corps (remember, last year Golladay and Toney were supposed to be "the guys"). Campbell and Hyatt are big upgrades there.

In comment 16122982 Eric from BBI said:

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look at the roster right now compared to the roster last year at this time, it is MUCH, MUCH better.

I don't see how anyone can debate that, but some will anyway.

In comment 16122997 christian said:

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Relative to positional value, Okereke was a big swing. But relative to the whole, the 21M he's guaranteed isn't a big risk. If he flames out, people will criticize the deal but it's not a tragedy on its own. None of the deals commitments he's made are that impactful save Jones. This whole off season comes down to whether they're right about Jones. If the best yet to come, it's a great off season. If he's the same guy as last year, it's neutral.

it's almost exactly the blake martinez deal again - which looked like a great deal year 1 and then he tore his acl. hopefully this one goes better but that one sort of shows the risk of any decent sized deal bc even if you get the evaluation right and the player has the 'iron man' track record it's still the nfl. there's a substantial chance any big deal turns into a big chunk of $ on IR.

in a year where there were some decent ILB's at a lower price point and their own reliable starter i think there's a fair argument that was the safer play just by virtue of 2 swings vs 1. doesn't mean that will end up correct. if okereke has a pierce/boley type 3-5 year run here he will probably be worth it.

In comment 16122955 JonC said:

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NYG had a good draft, but it wasn't a great crop. They still need to get better at '22 weaknesses, eg stopping the run, WR, IOL. It will all hinge on Jones, and it's a significant wager/expenditure.

But 4th worst means the majority of the league had a better offseason - do you actually believe that? Every team picked from the same crop of draft picks so that qualifier is out the window. So that leaves FA - 25+ teams had a better influx of talent in FA than the Giants did?

Also, we kept our Coordinators and continued to bolster the FO.

behind closed doors, they'll tell you they want one more offseason of roster flipping & adding to be the contender they want to be.

Also- ranking off seasons? SMH

In comment 16123010 UConn4523 said:

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In comment 16122955 JonC said: Quote: NYG had a good draft, but it wasn't a great crop. They still need to get better at '22 weaknesses, eg stopping the run, WR, IOL. It will all hinge on Jones, and it's a significant wager/expenditure. But 4th worst means the majority of the league had a better offseason - do you actually believe that? Every team picked from the same crop of draft picks so that qualifier is out the window. So that leaves FA - 25+ teams had a better influx of talent in FA than the Giants did? Also, we kept our Coordinators and continued to bolster the FO.

Exactly

but we needed to get better from year one and we did, at least on paper. The rest, TBD..

And next year, we need to continue to get younger and stronger

They will write something stupid. This nonsense proves my point.

even if Jones’ doesn’t workout the contract isn’t bad - the out after 2 years is an important difference between his and most other second QB contracts. They also have no commitment to Barkley beyond this year and if we do get a deal done, my guess is it aligns with Jones’ window. If Barnwell isn’t factoring that in than he isn’t being honest.

is fans still don't realize how much of an upgrade Bobby O is at ILB.

Last year we had guys like Tae Crowder and Jaylon Smith starting. Those two guys aren't even on an NFL 90-man roster right now.

In comment 16123001 Eric from BBI said:

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is important but the Giants got better at bunch of different positions. They also got a lot faster. They improved in the middle of the defense at DL and LB, they really improved at CB, they got a true center, they got a difference maker at TE, they very much upgraded their WR corps (remember, last year Golladay and Toney were supposed to be "the guys"). Campbell and Hyatt are big upgrades there.

that's what's sort of curious about the framing since this wasnt necessarily a power ranking of teams but who had the best/worst offseasons.

added waller/campbell/crowder/sweeney on offense,
added okereke/robinson/nunez-roches/mccain on defense.
they had a really strong draft in terms of alignment with needs,

waller, campbell, robinson, okereke are 4 clear new starters, plus some new depth, plus another 1 or 2 day 1 starters likely from draft.

i can see some fair criticisms, like how much they bet on okereke and the mccain/love swap, but generally speaking they upgraded 25%+ of their starting 22 with only 1 downgrade of significance (love). im certain we could find more than 3 other offseasons worse than that.

for all the gyrations people go through to praise the eagles, they lost possibly their best DL to a huge FA contract, CGJ and Epps from the secondary, Miles Sanders, a multi-year starter from their OL, 2 starting LBs, and had to give jalen hurts a record setting contract. however much you like or dont like hurts paying him that kind of $ is not the same kind of obvious decision as Burrow or Mahomes. even if they played their hand the best they could they arent as good of a roster as last year.

the only head-scratchers to me are:

(1) Julian Love leaving for the money he got. I still think something weird happened there. But the team may also be higher on Belton. Love didn't end the season on a strong note.

(2) I thought they would add another guard. But they may be higher last year's rookies and Bredeson than we realize.

But most of the things JonC points out, they addressed head on.

In comment 16123010 UConn4523 said:

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In comment 16122955 JonC said: Quote: NYG had a good draft, but it wasn't a great crop. They still need to get better at '22 weaknesses, eg stopping the run, WR, IOL. It will all hinge on Jones, and it's a significant wager/expenditure. But 4th worst means the majority of the league had a better offseason - do you actually believe that? Every team picked from the same crop of draft picks so that qualifier is out the window. So that leaves FA - 25+ teams had a better influx of talent in FA than the Giants did? Also, we kept our Coordinators and continued to bolster the FO.

I blew right past the subject line (no, don't agree) and went right into the body of the post.

In comment 16122967 BillT said:

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If he gave an alternative to what the Giants did I’d be interested to hear it. Getting a #1 WR would be great. But they also needed depth on the DL, depth at WR, a good CB, a good ILB, a good TE, a good center. You show me how they can get all of that and a #1 WR, I’ll listen.

The mantra here has been build team thru draft , develop players and sign some FA with upside along with maybe 1 larger signing
ILB a big signing ( solid, not great player) who should help quiet a bit
2 solid interior dline signings real nice. Exactly what this D was missing
CB obviously rd 1. Waller, parris C etc on O is helpful
Hyatt a real nice get in rd 3. JMS lines up need and BPA in rd 2
Not all holes filled but a majority were
Also we have most the draft class from last yr coming back from injury. If most do, a good influx of developmental players to add to the mix
We weren’t suppose to stack a SB team in yr 2. But we look like a playoff contender. 1 more offseason needed

For those who question the Jones signing:

Would the Giants be a better team next season or even 2 seasons down the road had they let Jones walk? If you believe yes, I d be interested in reading what the plan at quarterback would have been

Secondly, What if the Giants believe in Daniel, what lesser contract could they have offered and not lose him. My personal opinion is this contract could end up being a deal for the Giants.

Granted my view of Jones obvious physical talent made me a fan since the day he was drafted, so my opinion of him as a quarterback is skewed

I ve never been concerned about the idea that he is slow to process, I heard the same many years ago about Phil Simms.

It s pretty much a given the game slows down for these guys as they gain experience, I think we saw that last season with Daniel

In comment 16123024 Eric from BBI said:

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is fans still don't realize how much of an upgrade Bobby O is at ILB. Last year we had guys like Tae Crowder and Jaylon Smith starting. Those two guys aren't even on an NFL 90-man roster right now.

anyone with a pulse would have been an upgrade on what the nyg had last year so the question is degree/roi.

is okereke so much better than tj edwards that it was worth letting love go? tj edwards was very good last year in philly.

obviously the giants like okereke a lot and this group has earned trust. that doesn't make it wrong to point out that there's some risk just by virtue of the $. any UFA contract 10m+/aav and more than 50% guaranteed has some risk built in.

during the bye week i recall arguing with what seemed a pretty healthy majority who wanted to spend 10m+/year extending love so i have a little bit of whiplash now with the consensus seeming to be that minimum mccain is a total replacement.

That dude changes the offense.

Only thing I will tell you is Wink Martindale cut his teeth in this league by coaching inside linebackers. That's how he rose up the ranks.

In comment 16123014 Big Blue '56 said:

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In comment 16123010 UConn4523 said: Quote: In comment 16122955 JonC said: Quote: NYG had a good draft, but it wasn't a great crop. They still need to get better at '22 weaknesses, eg stopping the run, WR, IOL. It will all hinge on Jones, and it's a significant wager/expenditure. But 4th worst means the majority of the league had a better offseason - do you actually believe that? Every team picked from the same crop of draft picks so that qualifier is out the window. So that leaves FA - 25+ teams had a better influx of talent in FA than the Giants did? Also, we kept our Coordinators and continued to bolster the FO. Exactly

Exactly x 2.

In comment 16123040 Jim in Forest Hills said:

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That dude changes the offense.

Well, he's tearing up in practice today. They can't cover him.

In comment 16123030 Eric from BBI said:

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the only head-scratchers to me are: (1) Julian Love leaving for the money he got. I still think something weird happened there. But the team may also be higher on Belton. Love didn't end the season on a strong note. (2) I thought they would add another guard. But they may be higher last year's rookies and Bredeson than we realize. But most of the things JonC points out, they addressed head on.

i agree with both of those things and re Love here are the 3 things i think may have played a role.

1. pre-UFA opening they didn't know the cost on Bobby McCain. He was cut on 2/27 but who knows what his price was and where it went as FA evolved. Maybe they thought the value was just too good at the minimum and he made Love expendable?

2. okereke - it's possible they weren't sure they could get him at a contract that made sense and thought it more likely that they'd get one of those lower priced ILBs which would have given them the $ to bring back Love.

3. slayton - i cant imagine they would have gone much higher than they did to bring him back, and maybe they expected him to get more in FA - and if that happened then they had the $ to bring back love.

Once Love went to the market, they moved on to filling their roster, and i think by the time he came back to them with an offer they'd simply spent elsewhere (as they've said publicly). those were the places they spent, now we all hope they chose right. i'd have brought back love before slayton personally.

In comment 16123007 Eric on Li said:

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in a year where there were some decent ILB's at a lower price point and their own reliable starter i think there's a fair argument that was the safer play just by virtue of 2 swings vs 1. doesn't mean that will end up correct. if okereke has a pierce/boley type 3-5 year run here he will probably be worth it.

I liked the work Brown did on the pro scouting side last year, so I trust that the reason they went over slot on Okereke is because they project a higher ceiling. But these are the moves that separate the men from the boys on team construction.

In comment 16123024 Eric from BBI said:

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is fans still don't realize how much of an upgrade Bobby O is at ILB. Last year we had guys like Tae Crowder and Jaylon Smith starting. Those two guys aren't even on an NFL 90-man roster right now.

Keeping Lawrence & Williams fresh with capable backups, and having NFL caliber ILBs, will make a huge difference in stopping the run. And Philly & Dallas killed the Giants there last season.

In comment 16123043 Eric from BBI said:

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Only thing I will tell you is Wink Martindale cut his teeth in this league by coaching inside linebackers. That's how he rose up the ranks.

i can buy that - but in baltimore they probably said the same thing when he picked patrick queen in the first round and that didn't work out great.

i think my biggest issue is simply that i think DBs (like love) are more important than ILB's, unless the ILB are pro bowl types. they paid okereke like they think he's that so im hoping they are right. love seemed like a very safe use of $ though.

In comment 16123036 joeinpa said:

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For those who question the Jones signing: Would the Giants be a better team next season or even 2 seasons down the road had they let Jones walk? If you believe yes, I d be interested in reading what the plan at quarterback would have been Secondly, What if the Giants believe in Daniel, what lesser contract could they have offered and not lose him. My personal opinion is this contract could end up being a deal for the Giants. Granted my view of Jones obvious physical talent made me a fan since the day he was drafted, so my opinion of him as a quarterback is skewed I ve never been concerned about the idea that he is slow to process, I heard the same many years ago about Phil Simms. It s pretty much a given the game slows down for these guys as they gain experience, I think we saw that last season with Daniel

I think the previous regimes tried to force Jones to be a pocket passer which made his decision process seem slow.

It's not rocket science to quickly read a side of the field, see the coverage is muddy and just run.

I think the roster is clearly better than last year, but how much better remains to be seen. I have no idea how that translates to "fourth worst"

including some Giants fans, are the same ones who were predicting 5-6 wins last year and that we would not be re-signing Jones. Most of them did not expect Jones to perform like he did and can't seem to imagine him taking another step forward with improved coaching, OL and receivers.

I don't know if it's just innate pessimism or what. I'm sure in their minds, it's realism. But the significant improvement in the roster (at positions that were major weaknesses in '22) doesn't seem to be debatable to me.

In comment 16122973 Eric on Li said:

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the rest of his analysis is sort of pro forma - "they are overestimating last year's success and had to pay jones too much" - which could basically be written by a 3rd grader.

I don't think the first point about overestimating last year's success is as simple as third-grade level because a lot of people seem to be unable to grasp it.

I don't know what to make of the Love thing. They came up with what's effectively 5M guaranteed to sign Robinson, after Love got 6M guaranteed to go to Seattle.

It feels more like they didn't want Love, versus spending the money that was earmarked for him elsewhere.

In comment 16123030 Eric from BBI said:

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the only head-scratchers to me are: (1) Julian Love leaving for the money he got. I still think something weird happened there. But the team may also be higher on Belton. Love didn't end the season on a strong note. (2) I thought they would add another guard. But they may be higher last year's rookies and Bredeson than we realize. But most of the things JonC points out, they addressed head on.

They clearly addressed some spots on paper; some of them are incremental improvements, some are wagers on players with injury histories who must stay healthy, some are just young dudes and draft picks who they need to develop into quality pros, quickly. But, a year from them now they will still be looking at DL, IOL, WR, and CB in the draft, as well, as some of their additions are stop gaps. The process is underway and continues, no complaints given what they had to pick from. They just need more to get the pipeline flowing to sustain success and ascend.