it is behind a paywall, but he basically accuses the Giants of getting high on their own supply.
Too much asset allocation to Barklwy and Jones prevented them from fixing the 29th ranked DVOA defense. Although he criticizes us for not getting a number one receiver, he thinks we got more playmakers so he gives us some credit there.
I link but only ESPN subscribers can read it.
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He literally gave Devonta Smith two big plays one the first game and the second in the first or second play of the playoff game.
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the only head-scratchers to me are:
(1) Julian Love leaving for the money he got. I still think something weird happened there. But the team may also be higher on Belton. Love didn't end the season on a strong note.
(2) I thought they would add another guard. But they may be higher last year's rookies and Bredeson than we realize.
But most of the things JonC points out, they addressed head on.
They clearly addressed some spots on paper; some of them are incremental improvements, some are wagers on players with injury histories who must stay healthy, some are just young dudes and draft picks who they need to develop into quality pros, quickly. But, a year from them now they will still be looking at DL, IOL, WR, and CB in the draft, as well, as some of their additions are stop gaps. The process is underway and continues, no complaints given what they had to pick from. They just need more to get the pipeline flowing to sustain success and ascend.
A yr from know most teams will have a laundry list of needs. Most teams do. Just keep hitting on a high % of draft, do a good job developing them and hope most your FA signings work out well for the cash you signed them for. All you can do
QB stability is key. Hopefully jones solidifies himself as top 12 guy for the LT
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the only head-scratchers to me are:
(1) Julian Love leaving for the money he got. I still think something weird happened there. But the team may also be higher on Belton. Love didn't end the season on a strong note.
(2) I thought they would add another guard. But they may be higher last year's rookies and Bredeson than we realize.
But most of the things JonC points out, they addressed head on.
They clearly addressed some spots on paper; some of them are incremental improvements, some are wagers on players with injury histories who must stay healthy, some are just young dudes and draft picks who they need to develop into quality pros, quickly. But, a year from them now they will still be looking at DL, IOL, WR, and CB in the draft, as well, as some of their additions are stop gaps. The process is underway and continues, no complaints given what they had to pick from. They just need more to get the pipeline flowing to sustain success and ascend.
You and I usually agree, but I think your assessment is overly negative. Robinson and Nunez-Roches are not "wagers" or "injury risks." Neither is Bobby O. These are real upgrades. JMS was regarded by most as the safest player in the draft and will start, likely for 10 years. Hyatt is a major upgrade. Waller is already proving to be impossible to cover and getting him for malcontent Toney was a coup. Banks is perfect for Wink's system and I would not discount Hawkins as an eventual player.
Will they address those positions again? Of course, because some of this is tied in with contracts of guys who are making too much money.
Would the Giants be a better team next season or even 2 seasons down the road had they let Jones walk? If you believe yes, I d be interested in reading what the plan at quarterback would have been
Secondly, What if the Giants believe in Daniel, what lesser contract could they have offered and not lose him. My personal opinion is this contract could end up being a deal for the Giants.
Granted my view of Jones obvious physical talent made me a fan since the day he was drafted, so my opinion of him as a quarterback is skewed
I ve never been concerned about the idea that he is slow to process, I heard the same many years ago about Phil Simms.
It s pretty much a given the game slows down for these guys as they gain experience, I think we saw that last season with Daniel
I agree mostly. I think the critics of the Giants off-season would say they caved to both Jones and Barkley. Considering at the money Garoppolo got, I’m assuming if NYG let Jones test they market they would assume he wouldn’t command what NYG gave them.
There wasn't a good argument to be made for Jones to be paid more than Geno.
There wasn't a good argument to be made they he should get a cent more than $69M guaranteed for the first two years, the cost of 2, 1 year option franchise tags. Which is really what it is for and the logical approach for a player with so much risk involved. With 1 above average season and the 2 being poor at the most expensive position. Jones not taking a step forward makes it difficult for us to win for 3 seasons. ($20M dead money is an out but it isn't really a winning formula)
The central arguments around not giving Jones the franchise tag seemed to be around offending him. And I can't understand what is so offensive about getting a 1 year contract as a top 5 player while never sniffing that level of production.
On the flip side there seemed to be no concern about franchising Barkley has played at an all-pro level.
The issue isn't as much about the Jones deal as much as it is about Jones strong arming the Giants, preying on his clear knowledge of their desperation to stay out of the cellar. The agent firing said a lot about that. And the level of leverage he had and the way he played it was reminiscent of the negotiating ineptitude of Leo Williams.
When Barkley and Lawrence announced their holdouts I googled NFL player holdouts 2023 and just found an article on those 2 and 2022 holdouts. This is a concerning development.
Benchmarking to the market value of something is not just about that contract, it could very easily ripple out. Okereke was an overpay as well (I do like the player though).
There is nothing not to like about JS and BD. But for the life of me I don't know how people around here don't want to act like Joe Judge was the savior after 6-10, McAdoo as well after almost as strong of a 1st season as BD.
And this same leadership group in a flash went from a Superbowl team to a laughing stock when TC left the building.
Under DG and a lot of the same leaders (and to the best of my knowledge largely the same contract/cap experts) we heard the cap doesn't matter, one deal isn't going to break you etc.
Last season was fantastic. I would love to see it continue but I don't know how everyone can give so much benefit of the doubt so quickly to the Mara leadership group that has just been so completely inept for so long.
The Jones/Barkley handling is concerning. The guy producing elite numbers for you, you are grinding in the negotiation and talking about positional value. Well great, positional value is about benchmarking pay. And I don't know how two guys on the same offense, the one whose performance is objectively better relative to his peers you are having a clearly sharp edged conversation around value while the other guy you are making excuses for based on the same talent around him and ignoring clear negotiating benchmarks.
It took a truly extraordinary amount of failure for Mara to even consider letting in outside opinions but all of the same brain trust that torpedoed this franchise is still in that building. If Jones takes a step forward, everyone including me will be very pleased. If he doesn't, no more excuses about the talent around him and the fans should be putting heat on the Maras not JS if we don't want to end up right back in the gutter again.
jk there's a lot more awful "talent" on that network even worse than Barnwell.
The challenge this year is moving past Dallas.
It is if they are wagering too much off of one good season that it will cost them down the line.
Really I think a lot of negative assumptions from both PFF and Barnwell this week come from a the idea that there isn't another level for Jones, or that Thibs, Neal, Belton, Flott etc. won't improve significantly, and the rookies/FA aren't enough to make up for that. I think that's reasonable precaution to take, but I disagree with it. I'm bullish on the upside of this team given the coaching in place.
Agree. Arguably, we improved every area of the team that needed it... I don't understand the piling on with the Giants.
The challenge this year is moving past Dallas.
This is where my horizon is. They've clearly improved the roster and foundation on paper, and at the same time I see a need to add playmakers who will take them to the next level, eg competing with Philly, KC, et al. Waller is that type of talent, it's just the injuries need to fuck off. OL and DL and LB play must improve. It's not always a linear path to improving the physicality and cohesiveness of line play, so I am conservative there. Given their 2023 schedule, they might struggle to win 8 games but it could still clearly demonstrate success and another step in the ascension. Time will tell, but I expect to see a number of signs of progress in '23.
Really I think a lot of negative assumptions from both PFF and Barnwell this week come from a the idea that there isn't another level for Jones, or that Thibs, Neal, Belton, Flott etc. won't improve significantly, and the rookies/FA aren't enough to make up for that. I think that's reasonable precaution to take, but I disagree with it. I'm bullish on the upside of this team given the coaching in place.
I miss the days where people evaluated things with their own eyes.
If you don't like Jones you're never going to buy in to what the Giants are doing so you might as well start and end every article with that and save everyone the time needed to read the rest.
People won't budge off the Jones nonsense until he wins a super bowl which is dumb stupid ass logic but it is what it is.
It would have been much easier to "get out" of the Franchise tag. And two franchise tags would have not only been $12M (at least, this could balloon with incentives) cheaper than the his $81M guarantee. With $18M dead money in the 3rd year if they cut him. They actually made a significant wager and really an unnecessary risk on him. They essentially wagered 3 years when it made total sense given his history (performance and injury) to wager 1.
If Jones wanted more security the Giants like any team using their negotiating leverage properly should have held an extremely hard line at that 2X franchise tag amount.
I don't understand how it could be categorized as anything less than a significant wager at ~18% of the cap. Throw in the fact that we gave away the optionality while also guaranteeing more money than that route and it is fairly definitionally a massive bet and risk. I'm hoping they are right about him taking a step forward, they have to be. If they aren't it is just a huge unforced error and pretty embarrassing for them. I don't know how anyone can downplay that
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doesn't work out this year, they can get out very easily. They have not wagered much. And they tagged Barkley. They still haven't committed to him long term. Every other move they made was either reasonable for the short term or an investment in the future. To way they've wagered any of the future is ludicrous.
It would have been much easier to "get out" of the Franchise tag. And two franchise tags would have not only been $12M (at least, this could balloon with incentives) cheaper than the his $81M guarantee. With $18M dead money in the 3rd year if they cut him. They actually made a significant wager and really an unnecessary risk on him. They essentially wagered 3 years when it made total sense given his history (performance and injury) to wager 1.
If Jones wanted more security the Giants like any team using their negotiating leverage properly should have held an extremely hard line at that 2X franchise tag amount.
I don't understand how it could be categorized as anything less than a significant wager at ~18% of the cap. Throw in the fact that we gave away the optionality while also guaranteeing more money than that route and it is fairly definitionally a massive bet and risk. I'm hoping they are right about him taking a step forward, they have to be. If they aren't it is just a huge unforced error and pretty embarrassing for them. I don't know how anyone can downplay that
Embarrassing? Don't you think that's a little bit much? Re-signing your own developed QB who the staff know better than anyone, to essentially a 2 year deal is embarrassing now?
You know what is embarrassing? Watching Geno Smith turn into a star SOMEWHERE else. Watching Sam Darnold do the same, SOMEONE where else, and you just watch that happen with SF.
I love how fans and writers make it sound so easy. Yeah just let the QB walk...we can find another one...oh wait....don't let him go unless you pay him EXACTLY what I think he should get...
Right.
Oh wait...REALLY NOW?
I tried to say this months back that if the Giants did in fact utilize the option deal for 23, that they might have to pay Jones even more money when he hit FA in 2024. I was yelled at as usual.
Giants will rip that DJ deal up before it expires and pay him even more money. You heard it here first.
Unless he absolutely demolishes the league, the deal is calibrated to pay him commensurate with his performance.
At a top side of 49M a year, he'd have to be elite to outplay his deal.
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In comment 16123101 ElitoCanton said:
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doesn't work out this year, they can get out very easily. They have not wagered much. And they tagged Barkley. They still haven't committed to him long term. Every other move they made was either reasonable for the short term or an investment in the future. To way they've wagered any of the future is ludicrous.
It would have been much easier to "get out" of the Franchise tag. And two franchise tags would have not only been $12M (at least, this could balloon with incentives) cheaper than the his $81M guarantee. With $18M dead money in the 3rd year if they cut him. They actually made a significant wager and really an unnecessary risk on him. They essentially wagered 3 years when it made total sense given his history (performance and injury) to wager 1.
If Jones wanted more security the Giants like any team using their negotiating leverage properly should have held an extremely hard line at that 2X franchise tag amount.
I don't understand how it could be categorized as anything less than a significant wager at ~18% of the cap. Throw in the fact that we gave away the optionality while also guaranteeing more money than that route and it is fairly definitionally a massive bet and risk. I'm hoping they are right about him taking a step forward, they have to be. If they aren't it is just a huge unforced error and pretty embarrassing for them. I don't know how anyone can downplay that
Embarrassing? Don't you think that's a little bit much? Re-signing your own developed QB who the staff know better than anyone, to essentially a 2 year deal is embarrassing now?
You know what is embarrassing? Watching Geno Smith turn into a star SOMEWHERE else. Watching Sam Darnold do the same, SOMEONE where else, and you just watch that happen with SF.
I love how fans and writers make it sound so easy. Yeah just let the QB walk...we can find another one...oh wait....don't let him go unless you pay him EXACTLY what I think he should get...
Right.
I didn't say the deal was embarrassing at all now. I said it would be if they turned out to be wrong about his ability to take a step forward. And yeah it is a massive investment for a guy with one above average year.
The logical thing was the tag, it was a big risk not to. They 100% look very smart if they are right about him but look very dumb if they are wrong.
That is the nature of a big bet that carries a high risk that there were actually easy mechanisms allowing you to avoid that risk.
But this is inherent to where my (and others) critiques of it lie. Most smart decision makers favor process over outcome. To me regardless of the outcome this has process flaws in a deal mired in big performance and injury risks. You take big, unnecessary risks and that is just the fair and logical price. You look like a genius if you hit and it is embarrassing if you are wrong. I do not think it is even a slight bit to much, it is pretty much a standard assessment practice.
If the OL does its part and becomes a top 10 unit then both Jones and Barkley will be worth it imv. Last year the Giants had a bottom 10 unit.
They made significant investments in the D which I expect to be a very good unit but will need to stay healthy.
You can only do so much each offseason and a lot of the team improvement is going to come from many young players who were already on the roster taking steps (some big ones) forward as players.
I am not saying that I agree with this or that we are in this position, but when you are drafting 25th and you have to overpay your QB that is the definition of being in QB hell. In other words, if you are paying for a non-championship qb or starting over without any good options (draft pick or FA) then that is not ideal. I think it is a fair take to say the Giants did that--I think we can win a championship with Jones, but I can understand people thinking we cant. You never want to be in QB hell.
What teams are in QB hell? Not many IMO. The years of locking yourself into a Matt Ryan for many years seem to be over.
In this downside scenario, they pay him 82M for two years and walk away. This isn't a tragedy, it's a calculated risk.
I thought Jones would get closer to 75M guaranteed. But Team Jones gave 2 effectively non-guaranteed year in exchange for more upfront cash.
I still think the Giants won, because there is no new guaranteed money on years 3 & 4.
What teams are in QB hell? Not many IMO. The years of locking yourself into a Matt Ryan for many years seem to be over.
QB hell is when the downside and the upsides are both losing props. You can definitely make the argument that was the case with our decision with Jones in that we did not have a good decision to make, especially for the near future. I wouldn't make that argument, but it is definitely a supportable argument. The only caveat is that we can extricate after two years which is not such a bad thing and takes hell out of the equation.
I would like this franchise and regime to prove they can string together a couple of winning seasons before we even talk Superbowl. Historically, the Giants have been so boom or bust, and I think they got suckered into lazy thinking during the last boom period (ie just get Eli into the playoffs and he'll go on a run).
It would be great if Schoen/Daboll could construct a long, sustainable team identity that can survive changes in personnel, adapt as the league changes, and stay competitive and avoid lengthy rebuild periods. Basically what the Chiefs and Eagles have done for the past decade.
Personally, I do worry that fans are overrating the team a bit. A fair amount of good luck went into last year's playoff run. This year's team is unquestionably better, but we can't count on catching all the same breaks again, so the roster improvements might not necessarily show up in the win/loss column or in a repeat playoff berth.
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in a year where there were some decent ILB's at a lower price point and their own reliable starter i think there's a fair argument that was the safer play just by virtue of 2 swings vs 1. doesn't mean that will end up correct. if okereke has a pierce/boley type 3-5 year run here he will probably be worth it.
I liked the work Brown did on the pro scouting side last year, so I trust that the reason they went over slot on Okereke is because they project a higher ceiling. But these are the moves that separate the men from the boys on team construction.
i dont know how to parse what was done by brown or anyone else but i agree, going from bad to good is different and more difficult than going from good to great.
we have good reasons to be optimistic with this group but getting service-ableness out of richie james and feliciano and ward is one thing. getting real impact out of okereke and someone like Campbell this year has a different set of challenges more similar to what we saw with glowinski, who was probably their most disappointing move relative to cost and expectations last year. someone really likes ex-colts.
There wasn't a good argument to be made for Jones to be paid more than Geno.
There wasn't a good argument to be made they he should get a cent more than $69M guaranteed for the first two years, the cost of 2, 1 year option franchise tags. Which is really what it is for and the logical approach for a player with so much risk involved. With 1 above average season and the 2 being poor at the most expensive position. Jones not taking a step forward makes it difficult for us to win for 3 seasons. ($20M dead money is an out but it isn't really a winning formula)
The central arguments around not giving Jones the franchise tag seemed to be around offending him. And I can't understand what is so offensive about getting a 1 year contract as a top 5 player while never sniffing that level of production.
On the flip side there seemed to be no concern about franchising Barkley has played at an all-pro level.
The issue isn't as much about the Jones deal as much as it is about Jones strong arming the Giants, preying on his clear knowledge of their desperation to stay out of the cellar. The agent firing said a lot about that. And the level of leverage he had and the way he played it was reminiscent of the negotiating ineptitude of Leo Williams.
When Barkley and Lawrence announced their holdouts I googled NFL player holdouts 2023 and just found an article on those 2 and 2022 holdouts. This is a concerning development.
Benchmarking to the market value of something is not just about that contract, it could very easily ripple out. Okereke was an overpay as well (I do like the player though).
There is nothing not to like about JS and BD. But for the life of me I don't know how people around here don't want to act like Joe Judge was the savior after 6-10, McAdoo as well after almost as strong of a 1st season as BD.
And this same leadership group in a flash went from a Superbowl team to a laughing stock when TC left the building.
Under DG and a lot of the same leaders (and to the best of my knowledge largely the same contract/cap experts) we heard the cap doesn't matter, one deal isn't going to break you etc.
Last season was fantastic. I would love to see it continue but I don't know how everyone can give so much benefit of the doubt so quickly to the Mara leadership group that has just been so completely inept for so long.
The Jones/Barkley handling is concerning. The guy producing elite numbers for you, you are grinding in the negotiation and talking about positional value. Well great, positional value is about benchmarking pay. And I don't know how two guys on the same offense, the one whose performance is objectively better relative to his peers you are having a clearly sharp edged conversation around value while the other guy you are making excuses for based on the same talent around him and ignoring clear negotiating benchmarks.
It took a truly extraordinary amount of failure for Mara to even consider letting in outside opinions but all of the same brain trust that torpedoed this franchise is still in that building. If Jones takes a step forward, everyone including me will be very pleased. If he doesn't, no more excuses about the talent around him and the fans should be putting heat on the Maras not JS if we don't want to end up right back in the gutter again.
I'm 74 yrs old and been a Giant fan for 60 yrs. I go back to Charley Connerly and YA Title, seen all the Qbs between them and DJ. I think this kid has the ability to be the best of all. Yes, even Eli. I know the argument will be Eli won 2 SBs and I say give DJ a decent team and he will do the same, he's already done wonders with an inferior team. I know I'm an old fart and no expert, but this is what I see. This kid has a world of talent.
Address 1 or 2 positions via trade or free agency(usually a linebacker),and spend the remaining money in the dollar bin,add a few draft picks.Than the season comes and lean heavily on the quarterback
+1.
We had a very good offseason IMO. How that will translate into wins remains to be seen, for reasons others have said above. But we improved markedly at DL, ILB, WR/TE and C, all problem areas last year.
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and it’s only an overpay if he doesn’t perform and if he underperforms we have an out. And if the QB being championship worthy is the qualifier then there’s a whole bunch of teams in QB hell (an overused term IMO).
What teams are in QB hell? Not many IMO. The years of locking yourself into a Matt Ryan for many years seem to be over.
QB hell is when the downside and the upsides are both losing props. You can definitely make the argument that was the case with our decision with Jones in that we did not have a good decision to make, especially for the near future. I wouldn't make that argument, but it is definitely a supportable argument. The only caveat is that we can extricate after two years which is not such a bad thing and takes hell out of the equation.
This makes no sense to me, sorry. How is the upside a losing proposition?
2) Drafting Banks in the 1st round should help our pass d by the end of the season.
3) JMS will make our running attack better.
4) Waller, Campbell and Hyatt will help our intermediate and deep passing attack.
It was a good off-season for the Giants.
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I'm 74 yrs old and been a Giant fan for 60 yrs. I go back to Charley Connerly and YA Title, seen all the Qbs between them and DJ. I think this kid has the ability to be the best of all. Yes, even Eli. I know the argument will be Eli won 2 SBs and I say give DJ a decent team and he will do the same, he's already done wonders with an inferior team. I know I'm an old fart and no expert, but this is what I see. This kid has a world of talent.
I don't understand this at all. Just the single data point of that Eagles game, the most important game of his career that horrible game where he showed a lot of the same decision making problems that have plagued him is highly concerning.
After his rookie year I never saw Eli look that bad especially in such a high stakes game against a rival. Eli had some low talent receiver groups around him.
It feels very much that both fans and the Giants consistently describe DJ as better than his production, consistently, always. That has been the only consistent thing in his career. When his production moves up the descriptions and expectations don't match but consistently move far beyond what he has consistently demonstrated on the field.
It feels like it stems from so much losing and wanting to see things as better than they are. Nobody ever did this with Eli and he showed way more. The conversation always was around him pretty much being fairly evaluated or even undervalued.
It feels pretty insulting to Eli to even put DJ in the same conversation as him.
He’s way off base here. This team had a lot of holes going into this off-season. There is a reason Daboll won coach of the year. He took a team w no business making the playoffs to the second round of the playoffs. Knowing this they weren’t going to be able to fix every hole on the roster. Also at some point players drafted last year need to play and develop (Flott, Neal, Ezeudu, Beavers)
This team now has a solid d-line rotation. Yea they are one edge player short and they are thin there but they can’t solve every hole w finite resources. Linebacker is significantly improved w Okereke and Beavers coming back. And playing against the Eagles MLB becomes a premium position. CB is better short term and long term w Banks. Is it perfect? No. But they also need to see what they have in Flott and Robinson. Safety needs work next to McKinney but once again they weren’t going to fix everything and Love was a JAG in my eyes.
Offensive line is better w JMS and they need improvement from young players already on the roster. RB is deeper but status quo. Jones is back so status quo. This team now has like 9 NFL quality receivers when last year they had 1 to start the year. Yes they need a #1 but they aren’t easy to come by and nobody got a new #1 this year. And they added the second best receiving tight end in the league.
It’s not a perfect team. But they weren’t going to be w all their holes. But they had a very good off-season.
Because it’s just saying things and is ultimately subjective. I don’t care what people think his ceiling is, I care what Daboll thinks his ceiling is.
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In comment 16123082 NoGainDayne said:
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I'm 74 yrs old and been a Giant fan for 60 yrs. I go back to Charley Connerly and YA Title, seen all the Qbs between them and DJ. I think this kid has the ability to be the best of all. Yes, even Eli. I know the argument will be Eli won 2 SBs and I say give DJ a decent team and he will do the same, he's already done wonders with an inferior team. I know I'm an old fart and no expert, but this is what I see. This kid has a world of talent.
I don't understand this at all. Just the single data point of that Eagles game, the most important game of his career that horrible game where he showed a lot of the same decision making problems that have plagued him is highly concerning.
After his rookie year I never saw Eli look that bad especially in such a high stakes game against a rival. Eli had some low talent receiver groups around him.
It feels very much that both fans and the Giants consistently describe DJ as better than his production, consistently, always. That has been the only consistent thing in his career. When his production moves up the descriptions and expectations don't match but consistently move far beyond what he has consistently demonstrated on the field.
It feels like it stems from so much losing and wanting to see things as better than they are. Nobody ever did this with Eli and he showed way more. The conversation always was around him pretty much being fairly evaluated or even undervalued.
It feels pretty insulting to Eli to even put DJ in the same conversation as him.
Using the Eagle game as evaluation of DJ is misleading and unfair. Their talent is so much greater than ours it was a mismatch at every single position. We had all pros in that game that were overmatched, does that mean they're no good, did receivers get open, did the oline play well,no. No one did. To expect DJ to overcome such domination by the Eagles is foolish.
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In comment 16123082 NoGainDayne said:
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I'm 74 yrs old and been a Giant fan for 60 yrs. I go back to Charley Connerly and YA Title, seen all the Qbs between them and DJ. I think this kid has the ability to be the best of all. Yes, even Eli. I know the argument will be Eli won 2 SBs and I say give DJ a decent team and he will do the same, he's already done wonders with an inferior team. I know I'm an old fart and no expert, but this is what I see. This kid has a world of talent.
I don't understand this at all. Just the single data point of that Eagles game, the most important game of his career that horrible game where he showed a lot of the same decision making problems that have plagued him is highly concerning.
After his rookie year I never saw Eli look that bad especially in such a high stakes game against a rival. Eli had some low talent receiver groups around him.
It feels very much that both fans and the Giants consistently describe DJ as better than his production, consistently, always. That has been the only consistent thing in his career. When his production moves up the descriptions and expectations don't match but consistently move far beyond what he has consistently demonstrated on the field.
It feels like it stems from so much losing and wanting to see things as better than they are. Nobody ever did this with Eli and he showed way more. The conversation always was around him pretty much being fairly evaluated or even undervalued.
It feels pretty insulting to Eli to even put DJ in the same conversation as him.
All I know is that until Eli won his first Super Bowl, I wasn't convinced that he would ever be "The Guy." Something about the eye test wasn't working for me. But then he did win one, and the facts became impossible to ignore.
I don't suffer from the same lack of confidence in DJ. Something about the way the guy showed up last season makes it seem undeniable that he's going to win a Super Bowl someday, provided he gets the right people around him. And I think he will.