it is behind a paywall, but he basically accuses the Giants of getting high on their own supply.
Too much asset allocation to Barklwy and Jones prevented them from fixing the 29th ranked DVOA defense. Although he criticizes us for not getting a number one receiver, he thinks we got more playmakers so he gives us some credit there.
I link but only ESPN subscribers can read it.
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In comment 16123186 kickoff said:
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In comment 16123082 NoGainDayne said:
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I'm 74 yrs old and been a Giant fan for 60 yrs. I go back to Charley Connerly and YA Title, seen all the Qbs between them and DJ. I think this kid has the ability to be the best of all. Yes, even Eli. I know the argument will be Eli won 2 SBs and I say give DJ a decent team and he will do the same, he's already done wonders with an inferior team. I know I'm an old fart and no expert, but this is what I see. This kid has a world of talent.
I don't understand this at all. Just the single data point of that Eagles game, the most important game of his career that horrible game where he showed a lot of the same decision making problems that have plagued him is highly concerning.
After his rookie year I never saw Eli look that bad especially in such a high stakes game against a rival. Eli had some low talent receiver groups around him.
It feels very much that both fans and the Giants consistently describe DJ as better than his production, consistently, always. That has been the only consistent thing in his career. When his production moves up the descriptions and expectations don't match but consistently move far beyond what he has consistently demonstrated on the field.
It feels like it stems from so much losing and wanting to see things as better than they are. Nobody ever did this with Eli and he showed way more. The conversation always was around him pretty much being fairly evaluated or even undervalued.
It feels pretty insulting to Eli to even put DJ in the same conversation as him.
Using the Eagle game as evaluation of DJ is misleading and unfair. Their talent is so much greater than ours it was a mismatch at every single position. We had all pros in that game that were overmatched, does that mean they're no good, did receivers get open, did the oline play well,no. No one did. To expect DJ to overcome such domination by the Eagles is foolish.
^this. Also, NGD, did you forget the 4 INT and multiple pick 6 game Eli had against the Vikings in 07? People seem to forget that the majority of fans were ready to run Eli out of town up until the end of the regular season that year despite having made the playoffs previously, leading the team to winning records, etc. He also had a much better supporting cast than DJ has had.
**This is not a knock on Eli and not a direct comparison of the two.
If there's an issue there, it's with him leaving chunk plays on the field when they're there to be had and opting for gaining yards with safer options.
One thing you don't generally see is him winging the ball into traffic or trying to force a throw that isn't there.
And I'm not saying Herbert has accomplished more or done more with less. But that's what commitment looks like. It's when a team says you're going to be here 3,4,5 years.
Because when it comes down to it, Jones has accomplished more in one key area than Herbert -- and that's get it done in a playoff game.
That the Giants gave him a contract with a lot of conditions -- makes it not buying the car.
Herbert is going to exceed that by a wide margin, and his biggest moment is getting caught from behind in embarrassing fashion.
That says something about management's commitment to Jones. He's got plenty to prove.
If you don't like Jones you're never going to buy in to what the Giants are doing so you might as well start and end every article with that and save everyone the time needed to read the rest.
People won't budge off the Jones nonsense until he wins a super bowl which is dumb stupid ass logic but it is what it is.
You nailed it.
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just completely disregarded here. Arguments around it being a good deal "if they are right" about Jones, completely disregards sound risk management and asset valuation principles.
There wasn't a good argument to be made for Jones to be paid more than Geno.
There wasn't a good argument to be made they he should get a cent more than $69M guaranteed for the first two years, the cost of 2, 1 year option franchise tags. Which is really what it is for and the logical approach for a player with so much risk involved. With 1 above average season and the 2 being poor at the most expensive position. Jones not taking a step forward makes it difficult for us to win for 3 seasons. ($20M dead money is an out but it isn't really a winning formula)
The central arguments around not giving Jones the franchise tag seemed to be around offending him. And I can't understand what is so offensive about getting a 1 year contract as a top 5 player while never sniffing that level of production.
On the flip side there seemed to be no concern about franchising Barkley has played at an all-pro level.
The issue isn't as much about the Jones deal as much as it is about Jones strong arming the Giants, preying on his clear knowledge of their desperation to stay out of the cellar. The agent firing said a lot about that. And the level of leverage he had and the way he played it was reminiscent of the negotiating ineptitude of Leo Williams.
When Barkley and Lawrence announced their holdouts I googled NFL player holdouts 2023 and just found an article on those 2 and 2022 holdouts. This is a concerning development.
Benchmarking to the market value of something is not just about that contract, it could very easily ripple out. Okereke was an overpay as well (I do like the player though).
There is nothing not to like about JS and BD. But for the life of me I don't know how people around here don't want to act like Joe Judge was the savior after 6-10, McAdoo as well after almost as strong of a 1st season as BD.
And this same leadership group in a flash went from a Superbowl team to a laughing stock when TC left the building.
Under DG and a lot of the same leaders (and to the best of my knowledge largely the same contract/cap experts) we heard the cap doesn't matter, one deal isn't going to break you etc.
Last season was fantastic. I would love to see it continue but I don't know how everyone can give so much benefit of the doubt so quickly to the Mara leadership group that has just been so completely inept for so long.
The Jones/Barkley handling is concerning. The guy producing elite numbers for you, you are grinding in the negotiation and talking about positional value. Well great, positional value is about benchmarking pay. And I don't know how two guys on the same offense, the one whose performance is objectively better relative to his peers you are having a clearly sharp edged conversation around value while the other guy you are making excuses for based on the same talent around him and ignoring clear negotiating benchmarks.
It took a truly extraordinary amount of failure for Mara to even consider letting in outside opinions but all of the same brain trust that torpedoed this franchise is still in that building. If Jones takes a step forward, everyone including me will be very pleased. If he doesn't, no more excuses about the talent around him and the fans should be putting heat on the Maras not JS if we don't want to end up right back in the gutter again.
I'm 74 yrs old and been a Giant fan for 60 yrs. I go back to Charley Connerly and YA Title, seen all the Qbs between them and DJ. I think this kid has the ability to be the best of all. Yes, even Eli. I know the argument will be Eli won 2 SBs and I say give DJ a decent team and he will do the same, he's already done wonders with an inferior team. I know I'm an old fart and no expert, but this is what I see. This kid has a world of talent.
Kickoff, been a fan since 56. Conerly and Tittle were very good athletes. But I agree, Jones is the best athlete to ever play this position for the Giants
There wasn't a good argument to be made for Jones to be paid more than Geno.
There wasn't a good argument to be made they he should get a cent more than $69M guaranteed for the first two years, the cost of 2, 1 year option franchise tags. Which is really what it is for and the logical approach for a player with so much risk involved. With 1 above average season and the 2 being poor at the most expensive position. Jones not taking a step forward makes it difficult for us to win for 3 seasons. ($20M dead money is an out but it isn't really a winning formula)
The central arguments around not giving Jones the franchise tag seemed to be around offending him. And I can't understand what is so offensive about getting a 1 year contract as a top 5 player while never sniffing that level of production.
On the flip side there seemed to be no concern about franchising Barkley has played at an all-pro level.
The issue isn't as much about the Jones deal as much as it is about Jones strong arming the Giants, preying on his clear knowledge of their desperation to stay out of the cellar. The agent firing said a lot about that. And the level of leverage he had and the way he played it was reminiscent of the negotiating ineptitude of Leo Williams.
When Barkley and Lawrence announced their holdouts I googled NFL player holdouts 2023 and just found an article on those 2 and 2022 holdouts. This is a concerning development.
Benchmarking to the market value of something is not just about that contract, it could very easily ripple out. Okereke was an overpay as well (I do like the player though).
There is nothing not to like about JS and BD. But for the life of me I don't know how people around here don't want to act like Joe Judge was the savior after 6-10, McAdoo as well after almost as strong of a 1st season as BD.
And this same leadership group in a flash went from a Superbowl team to a laughing stock when TC left the building.
Under DG and a lot of the same leaders (and to the best of my knowledge largely the same contract/cap experts) we heard the cap doesn't matter, one deal isn't going to break you etc.
Last season was fantastic. I would love to see it continue but I don't know how everyone can give so much benefit of the doubt so quickly to the Mara leadership group that has just been so completely inept for so long.
The Jones/Barkley handling is concerning. The guy producing elite numbers for you, you are grinding in the negotiation and talking about positional value. Well great, positional value is about benchmarking pay. And I don't know how two guys on the same offense, the one whose performance is objectively better relative to his peers you are having a clearly sharp edged conversation around value while the other guy you are making excuses for based on the same talent around him and ignoring clear negotiating benchmarks.
It took a truly extraordinary amount of failure for Mara to even consider letting in outside opinions but all of the same brain trust that torpedoed this franchise is still in that building. If Jones takes a step forward, everyone including me will be very pleased. If he doesn't, no more excuses about the talent around him and the fans should be putting heat on the Maras not JS if we don't want to end up right back in the gutter again.
Not sure I m correct here, but are you implying the Jones’ contract was more Mara than Schoen.
If so, I just don’t see it that way
Obviously BBI is right
As for Daniel Jones, the same regime that passed on his fifth-year option was won over sufficiently to invest two more seasons in him. That says a lot to me. He'll never be Patrick Mahomes. He might not even be Jalen Hurts, and comparing him to Eli Manning is pointless because their similarities are superficial (team, height, Cutcliffe, blandness, etc.). Schoen and Daboll think they can win with him. So maybe he just needs to be Daniel Jones.
Herbert will probably continue to come up small and embarrass himself in the playoffs, its a Chargers tradition.
Also, it's odd how much he shits on the Giants considering he's a fan. Maybe he's accidentally overcompensating?
Also, the contract for Jones was universally applauded as being not only fair value but not crippling if he doesn’t improve.
I’m not sure you can make Barnwell’s argument unless he’s trying to say that Jones stinks so they should just tear it down. Which, would be idiotic.
I cannot believe that people still think he can’t get significantly better, considering the weapons he’s had vs what they have on the roster now.
You could argue that the Giants had the worst group of receivers in all of football and they were a win away from the NFC championship game. You could also argue that Waller is the best weapon Jones has ever had at pass catcher. That’s somewhat hilarious.
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It is kinda wild that Jones has more postseason wins than Herbert when one thinks about it considering the love Herbert gets nationally. And I'm a huge Herbert fan & would take him over DJ, but it's worth noting.
Herbert will probably continue to come up small and embarrass himself in the playoffs, its a Chargers tradition.
As will Rodgers with the Jets
Darius Slayton is a much better deep ball target than Waller.
The Giants ability to stretch the field is much more dependent on Jones not being under constant pressure during real games.
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It took Jones all of about 9 seconds to start throwing deep to Waller in practice. Think about how he’s never had the chance to do that with anyone the first 4 years of his career.
Darius Slayton is a much better deep ball target than Waller.
The Giants ability to stretch the field is much more dependent on Jones not being under constant pressure during real games.
And why I hoped we’d get an actual talented C
The Jones debate is tiresome but he's paid like a QB who's about 10-12th best and.. that's pretty fair. But whatever.
Defensively... there was NO WAY we were addressing every single issue on the defensive side of the ball but we added two good run defenders, a 1st round CB and a FA linebacker that really isn't a "bad" contract at all. We need more help on defense but we were never finishing that process in one offseason but I thought JS did a great job addressing key areas (run defense, ILB).
I also find his argument a bit contradictory... criticizes us for running it back but then criticizes us for adding Okereke on defense?
No one is overrating Slayton. You made the silly claim Jones never had a deep threat in practice. For all of his many shortcomings, Slayton is one of the bigger play speed threats in the NFL.
The goal of this offense is to get the ball to the freest target and turn short air yards into long yards after the catch.
Kafka did a great job the 2nd half of the year scheming guys open in stack and drag looks. There are a couple of great video break downs online about this.
I very much look forward to how the cat and mouse game Kafka will play with Waller and Slayton.
Plenty of stuff in the post games in season; "Daboll sees Jones is the problem and not the WR's", "Jones can be replaced with a 2nd/3rd round pick", etc.
Giants added a upper tier pass option. They added a Center in round 2 addressing the the two biggest issues on offense. A few WR's and another RB.
Hopefully enough to stay ahead of the chains with a pretty balanced offense.
Most issues were rooted in the poor OL against the better fronts. Improved skill guys will help in these situations which will happen regardless but hopefully now less often The OL will dictate this imv.
You have lowest understanding of football of any poster in the history of BBI. We are all the worse off for your contributions.
I'll set you up with an NFL+ account so you can review the short passing game gimmick offense of the Chiefs. You pay specific attention to their intended air yards per attempt, how they stack and free their WRs, and how they move Kelce.
No need to reply. Just take it in.
Nothing I said was out of line. Anyone with some basic football knowledge understands that the short passing game was a result of the poor OL and skill guys. Go back and listen to Collingsworth in the second WFT game.
You take that back right now, or I'm emailing the moderators for you spreading lies. I mean it.
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to take your points in. You should go back to when I started posting and see how many posters have complimented me on my posts. Not something I look for but plenty of evidence.
You take that back right now, or I'm emailing the moderators for you spreading lies. I mean it.
Go ahead.
Make sure you include the poster you have said is one of your favorites when he said "LoS is a good contributor" to start. That comment is in one of the post game rants you were on with Dumber as usual.
I won't name that poster who said that out of respect but if you are smart enough to build a clock you can figure it out.
Good luck.