I know what you're thinking: Another Daniel Jones thread! But I just wanted to share my thoughts related to the widely agreed perception that Daniel Jones needs to hit another level this year to justify his contract.
First let me say I am not a Daniel Jones lover. During his first 3 years I was much closer to Goterps than BB '56 :) That's simply what he showed us. Unless you wear blue rose-tinted glasses and can't be objective, that's what you saw. It's why Schoen didn't pick up his option. Then last year he played well, above-average, so I'm willing to change my mind.
Then he got his big contract and people universally said he had to take it up a level to justify it. But I don't believe that; I think he is fairly compensated to his level right now. Right now, DJ has the 9th most AAV among QBs (tied with Dak Prescott and Matthew Stafford) and is not even in the top 10 in guaranteed money. (I am linking below to the article I'm getting this data from).
This is BEFORE Burrow and Herbert sign their monster new contracts, which will push DJ to something like the 12th or 13th highest paid QB, depending on which metric you use, AAV or guaranteed money, and he's already outside the top 10 in guaranteed money as is.
Wouldn't you say he is around maybe the 12th or 13th best QB in the NFL? Well, that's what he will be getting paid as. 13th out of 32 means you are a bit above average, which is the level he deserves to be paid at. And what morons in the media like Bill Barnwell always overlook is that we can easily get out of his contract after 2 years. It's not like we are tied to Daniel Jones for half a decade. Who knows, maybe Schoen finds a QB he is in love with next year's draft and we have an Alex Smith/Patty Mahomes situation for a season.
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The offensive talent improved on paper kind of and on a bit of preseason hopium, so I guess its fair to project some improvement from Jones (I think another year in the system should be big), although not sure how much higher you can get than 6th best rated QB last year.
Even just from last year, it seemed Jones improved as the season went on.
I do not think any of these QB contracts are worth it....unless the QB is able to win a Super Bowls.
Which makes list small.
Daniel is set for life...congratulations.
Now, Win us a Super Bowl. (See Eli for reference).
Can you delete the duplicate thread you created?
I do not think any of these QB contracts are worth it....unless the QB is able to win a Super Bowls.
Which makes list small.
Daniel is set for life...congratulations.
Now, Win us a Super Bowl. (See Eli for reference).
I agree thst most Qb contracts are insane. Especially for guys who haven't won shit. More than a few national people though went nuts over Jones contract The point of the thread is he wasn't given some insane contract.
With that, QBs gets too much credit and too much blame....
Rarely, Does a QB win Super Bowls without a ton of support.
Eli won Super Bowls because the defense kept hitting Brady, S.Smith nifty running after catch, etc etc
I believe Daniel Jones is good enough to win a Super Bowl...with a great Wink defense, a decent OL etc etc
For whatever reason, the Giants, or more pointedly their fans, seem to have to “justify” almost every move or non-move with the media. We’re NY, that ain’t gonna stop.
Which is exactly what happened last year in the main.
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If we are just applying the OP's subject line "DJ does not need to be great to justify his contract" then I agree. But, that is not really saying much. Jones can help justify his contract by being a main reason why the Giants are competitive in most games and win more games than they should.
Which is exactly what happened last year in the main.
Agreed. I meant to add that at the end, but forgot!
But as I also posted, he only had 15 touchdown passes last year. He could have eight alone this year to Waller.
Sometimes, if the winning is done without individual stats that correlate, you might draw the conclusion that the winning isn't because of that player.
I'm not saying that's the case with DJ, but this line of thinking that ignores individual contributions to the team's performance simply because the team as a whole did well is logically flawed. Why, for example, would Schoen bother to upgrade the receiving group (including trading for Waller)? After all, last year's receivers were part of a winning team - who cares about their individual stats? And why bother addressing the run defense - that group was part of a winning team even if they got gashed on the ground with regularity, so why worry about improving the individual players that compose the roster at all?
The problem isn't putting wins ahead of stats - I think we'd all agree that we'd prefer the Giants win with ugly stats than lose with gaudy numbers. The problem is that fans only apply this line of thinking to the players they want to root for - that is, it's not just about winning above stats; it's about applying an inconsistent measure of production across different players based on personal preference, and nothing more. And that's the part that is about DJ - fans apply this "so what if his individual production has some legitimate gaps" line of thinking to some players and not to others.
For example, OBJ was one of the best offensive players this team has had in years, but he was an asshole, so fans were perfectly content to see him get run out of town. DJ, meanwhile, hasn't accomplished anything more than OBJ, but DJ is a likable guy who possesses some qualities that many fans find more palatable, so we're reminded that he's a winner regardless of stats (even though that part requires a bit of faith as well).
Anyway, here's the short version of my POV as it relates to the OP and the thread in general: by the structure of DJ's contract alone, yes he does need to continue improving in order to justify his contract. Otherwise, it's not going to be a $160M contract; it's going to be an $82M contract, no matter how much you guys wish DJ would date your daughters.
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If we are just applying the OP's subject line "DJ does not need to be great to justify his contract" then I agree. But, that is not really saying much. Jones can help justify his contract by being a main reason why the Giants are competitive in most games and win more games than they should.
Which is exactly what happened last year in the main.
And exactly what didn't in the three years that preceded last year. Thus the need to still prove it, because the possibility of last season being an outlier still exists, and his contract reflects that.
Completely disagree. Mr Dink and Dunk cannot play at last years level for a successful season. He needs to improve. He has to establish he can complete deeper throws to threaten defenses. He still holds the ball too long and lacks downfield vision. Weapons do not matter if QB cant see the field.
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a contract with stats? I just want to see wins. If it’s done without gaudy stats, so what? Keep the competition on the field and stop worrying about who wins at negotiating tables.
Sometimes, if the winning is done without individual stats that correlate, you might draw the conclusion that the winning isn't because of that player.
I'm not saying that's the case with DJ, but this line of thinking that ignores individual contributions to the team's performance simply because the team as a whole did well is logically flawed. Why, for example, would Schoen bother to upgrade the receiving group (including trading for Waller)? After all, last year's receivers were part of a winning team - who cares about their individual stats? And why bother addressing the run defense - that group was part of a winning team even if they got gashed on the ground with regularity, so why worry about improving the individual players that compose the roster at all?
The problem isn't putting wins ahead of stats - I think we'd all agree that we'd prefer the Giants win with ugly stats than lose with gaudy numbers. The problem is that fans only apply this line of thinking to the players they want to root for - that is, it's not just about winning above stats; it's about applying an inconsistent measure of production across different players based on personal preference, and nothing more. And that's the part that is about DJ - fans apply this "so what if his individual production has some legitimate gaps" line of thinking to some players and not to others.
For example, OBJ was one of the best offensive players this team has had in years, but he was an asshole, so fans were perfectly content to see him get run out of town. DJ, meanwhile, hasn't accomplished anything more than OBJ, but DJ is a likable guy who possesses some qualities that many fans find more palatable, so we're reminded that he's a winner regardless of stats (even though that part requires a bit of faith as well).
Anyway, here's the short version of my POV as it relates to the OP and the thread in general: by the structure of DJ's contract alone, yes he does need to continue improving in order to justify his contract. Otherwise, it's not going to be a $160M contract; it's going to be an $82M contract, no matter how much you guys wish DJ would date your daughters.
What about wishing DJ to date my son? Any flexibility there?
Last season with better talent DJ did enough to warrant his current contract from Schoen and Daboll
It s really not a complicated issue.
We ll see what happens in the next two seasons. I m excited about getting the chance to continue seeing him play.
Hopefully the staff is able to put a good enough team over the next 2-3 years that they have a chance to compete for a championship.
Jones just needs to be good enough during the season and then the playoffs will really show what you have. This is true for the HC as well.
QB is the position that has the most variables around it. Comparing it to a position like WR is beyond short sighted.
His ranking will be better as the team continues to get better around him and hopefully the front office does its part.
DJ was the best QB available we could get this past offseason. We weren't drafting high enough, and no FA would be a marked upgrade (maybe Carr is a slight upgrade, but why not stay with the guy you have and knows your system?)
But he may not be the best guy we can have in 2-3 years. So Schoen gave himself flexibility. If we win SBs with DJ great. If Schoen sees an opportunity to massively upgrade in 2-3 years, we can pounce.
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The issue with our offense wasn’t DJ it was his surrounding cast. If he plays at last year’s level, we will be fine. Now, I think he does have upside but that’s not the major component of our taking the next step on offense.
Completely disagree. Mr Dink and Dunk cannot play at last years level for a successful season. He needs to improve. He has to establish he can complete deeper throws to threaten defenses. He still holds the ball too long and lacks downfield vision. Weapons do not matter if QB cant see the field.
Completely disagree. His play was primarily the result of the lack of talent around him, your personal insults not withstanding.
Eli won a division title in 05 but people said he threw too many INTs, couldn't win on the road and couldn't win in cold weather. Hilarious in retrospect but this shit happened all the time back then. Eli was over-drafted. HE was only drafted that high because of his last name. NYG gave up too much.
Top ten lists consistently omitted Eli and the authors of said list actually relished in excluding ELi and telling everyone why. If you had a voice, you talked shit about Eli. Now those people are nowhere to be found, which is fine, but it would have been nice if some of you learned that 2-3 and even 4 years does not a career make. Same people are putting RJ Barret on blast every time he misses an open 3.
Now it's Jones's turn. Same fans. Same shit. Different day. Last year wasn't good enough even though the pros in charge clearly feel it was, but you know better. And you remind us all every single day.
When DJ finishes his career with 5000 or so rushing yards and 300 total TDs and hopefully 5-6-7-8 playoff wins, see you then.
And then you'd bitch about that too.
You understand they are two completely different situations, and people thinking Eli sucked has no bearing on Daniel Jones right? And FWIW, Eli was a 5 star recruit with multiple SEC offers who was a consensus top 5 pick pre-draft, whereas Daniel Jones was a 0 star recruit, whose only D-1 offer was from Duke, and who many considered a round 2 draft pick, so there is a difference talent wise.
Again, I hope we win multiple SB's with DJ, but it's entirely possible he has an Alex Smith, or Ryan Tannehil type career, good not great. And fans thinking Eli sucked has no bearing on that.
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In comment 16123598 ChrisRick said:
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If we are just applying the OP's subject line "DJ does not need to be great to justify his contract" then I agree. But, that is not really saying much. Jones can help justify his contract by being a main reason why the Giants are competitive in most games and win more games than they should.
Which is exactly what happened last year in the main.
And exactly what didn't in the three years that preceded last year. Thus the need to still prove it, because the possibility of last season being an outlier still exists, and his contract reflects that.
Do people really think Jones is closer to 2021 or will "revert" to that level of play? First off, poeple need to go back and watch DJ from that 2021 season again because he really wasn't that bad at all that season. Second, the entire franchise was rotten from the head down that year. To say this current team is night and day compared to then is an understatement. Jones could have an awful 2023 and it would never come close to the dreadful state of that 2021 season.
Are some of you really fearful that Jones will forget how to go through his reads/progressions or forget when to tuck the ball away and run for 10 when it's 3rd and 9?
Everything Jones did in 2022 looks very very sustainable to me. I just sense many fans think last year was a fluke. I don't get it.
2020-21 was the fluke and even then you could see that Jones was the lone bright spot on offense even if there were very few moments of prolific play.
I don't know...I feel like I am taking crazy pills when it comes to any DJ talk.
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In comment 16123600 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 16123598 ChrisRick said:
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If we are just applying the OP's subject line "DJ does not need to be great to justify his contract" then I agree. But, that is not really saying much. Jones can help justify his contract by being a main reason why the Giants are competitive in most games and win more games than they should.
Which is exactly what happened last year in the main.
And exactly what didn't in the three years that preceded last year. Thus the need to still prove it, because the possibility of last season being an outlier still exists, and his contract reflects that.
Do people really think Jones is closer to 2021 or will "revert" to that level of play? First off, poeple need to go back and watch DJ from that 2021 season again because he really wasn't that bad at all that season. Second, the entire franchise was rotten from the head down that year. To say this current team is night and day compared to then is an understatement. Jones could have an awful 2023 and it would never come close to the dreadful state of that 2021 season.
Are some of you really fearful that Jones will forget how to go through his reads/progressions or forget when to tuck the ball away and run for 10 when it's 3rd and 9?
Everything Jones did in 2022 looks very very sustainable to me. I just sense many fans think last year was a fluke. I don't get it.
2020-21 was the fluke and even then you could see that Jones was the lone bright spot on offense even if there were very few moments of prolific play.
I don't know...I feel like I am taking crazy pills when it comes to any DJ talk.
I didn't even read any of this but I know what it says.
My opinion doesn't matter and neither does yours - but Schoen built a prove-it contract for DJ. That wasn't an accident.
The saying is "I couldn't care less."
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In comment 16123585 Pepe LePugh said:
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a contract with stats? I just want to see wins. If it’s done without gaudy stats, so what? Keep the competition on the field and stop worrying about who wins at negotiating tables.
Sometimes, if the winning is done without individual stats that correlate, you might draw the conclusion that the winning isn't because of that player.
I'm not saying that's the case with DJ, but this line of thinking that ignores individual contributions to the team's performance simply because the team as a whole did well is logically flawed. Why, for example, would Schoen bother to upgrade the receiving group (including trading for Waller)? After all, last year's receivers were part of a winning team - who cares about their individual stats? And why bother addressing the run defense - that group was part of a winning team even if they got gashed on the ground with regularity, so why worry about improving the individual players that compose the roster at all?
The problem isn't putting wins ahead of stats - I think we'd all agree that we'd prefer the Giants win with ugly stats than lose with gaudy numbers. The problem is that fans only apply this line of thinking to the players they want to root for - that is, it's not just about winning above stats; it's about applying an inconsistent measure of production across different players based on personal preference, and nothing more. And that's the part that is about DJ - fans apply this "so what if his individual production has some legitimate gaps" line of thinking to some players and not to others.
For example, OBJ was one of the best offensive players this team has had in years, but he was an asshole, so fans were perfectly content to see him get run out of town. DJ, meanwhile, hasn't accomplished anything more than OBJ, but DJ is a likable guy who possesses some qualities that many fans find more palatable, so we're reminded that he's a winner regardless of stats (even though that part requires a bit of faith as well).
Anyway, here's the short version of my POV as it relates to the OP and the thread in general: by the structure of DJ's contract alone, yes he does need to continue improving in order to justify his contract. Otherwise, it's not going to be a $160M contract; it's going to be an $82M contract, no matter how much you guys wish DJ would date your daughters.
What about wishing DJ to date my son? Any flexibility there?
Totally. Crick, the lesson here is, whatever makes DJ happy is most important.
The Giants love Jones. The contract reflects this. It's also a smart contract. The two can co-exist.
I'm done. This shit is exhausting.
The Giants love Jones. The contract reflects this. It's also a smart contract. The two can co-exist.
I'm done. This shit is exhausting.
Show me the $104M guaranteed.
It's $82M guaranteed. I know you hate salary cap and contract discussions, but you could do your part to shorten them with accuracy.
The Giants love Jones. The contract reflects this. It's also a smart contract. The two can co-exist.
I'm done. This shit is exhausting.
In the history of this website...over 25 years... I can't think of another subject that has been beaten more to death than Daniel Jones. That's saying something given some of the subject matter we've dealt with... quarterbacks alone... Dave Brown, Danny Kannel, Kent Graham, Kerry Collins, Eli Manning. Daniel tops them all in thread discussion.
Eli won a division title in 05 but people said he threw too many INTs, couldn't win on the road and couldn't win in cold weather. Hilarious in retrospect but this shit happened all the time back then. Eli was over-drafted. HE was only drafted that high because of his last name. NYG gave up too much.
Top ten lists consistently omitted Eli and the authors of said list actually relished in excluding ELi and telling everyone why. If you had a voice, you talked shit about Eli. Now those people are nowhere to be found, which is fine, but it would have been nice if some of you learned that 2-3 and even 4 years does not a career make. Same people are putting RJ Barret on blast every time he misses an open 3.
Now it's Jones's turn. Same fans. Same shit. Different day. Last year wasn't good enough even though the pros in charge clearly feel it was, but you know better. And you remind us all every single day.
When DJ finishes his career with 5000 or so rushing yards and 300 total TDs and hopefully 5-6-7-8 playoff wins, see you then.
The #s support that.
That said, if he want's to see the end of his contract or an extension, I agree that he will need to elevate the offense beyond last years performance.
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most Giants fans thought Eli sucked until January-February 2008. Don't tell me it's not the same thing. It's EXACTLY the same thing but some of you just don't know it yet.
Eli won a division title in 05 but people said he threw too many INTs, couldn't win on the road and couldn't win in cold weather. Hilarious in retrospect but this shit happened all the time back then. Eli was over-drafted. HE was only drafted that high because of his last name. NYG gave up too much.
Top ten lists consistently omitted Eli and the authors of said list actually relished in excluding ELi and telling everyone why. If you had a voice, you talked shit about Eli. Now those people are nowhere to be found, which is fine, but it would have been nice if some of you learned that 2-3 and even 4 years does not a career make. Same people are putting RJ Barret on blast every time he misses an open 3.
Now it's Jones's turn. Same fans. Same shit. Different day. Last year wasn't good enough even though the pros in charge clearly feel it was, but you know better. And you remind us all every single day.
When DJ finishes his career with 5000 or so rushing yards and 300 total TDs and hopefully 5-6-7-8 playoff wins, see you then.
Good honest post. And I m forever indebted to Eli for those two SBs but to be honest the defense had as much to do with it as he did. And to be really honest Eli is better than a .500 QB. The FO let him down with poor talent around him the past couple years
You're right.
I am not even comparing Jones with Eli. Two completely different players and situations. Just pointing out the history of QBs and fans being wrong.
In 2024, Daniel Jones will account for 17.6% of the cap.
Quarterback has been the most important player since the advent of the modern era, but it's never eaten up the percentage of resources the way it does now.
The Giants also haven't had a QB going into his 5th year on the team with as many questions since Simms. And that's not to say Jones is bad or anything, it's just we knew exactly who Kannel, Brown, Graham, Collins, Manning were by year 5.
If the last 10 years hasn't taught Giants fans that resource allocation is a close 3rd to getting the right coach and drafting well, that's surprising.
In 2024, Daniel Jones will account for 17.6% of the cap.
Quarterback has been the most important player since the advent of the modern era, but it's never eaten up the percentage of resources the way it does now.
The Giants also haven't had a QB going into his 5th year on the team with as many questions since Simms. And that's not to say Jones is bad or anything, it's just we knew exactly who Kannel, Brown, Graham, Collins, Manning were by year 5.
If the last 10 years hasn't taught Giants fans that resource allocation is a close 3rd to getting the right coach and drafting well, that's surprising.
Good post. And this is precisely why DJ is the greatest lightning rod in Giants history. Never has a player been given so much but proven so little - from the spot he was selected in the 2019 draft to the gargantuan cap share he will occupy in 2024. His performance over the next two years will have a profound impact on the future of this franchise, the careers of many at One Giants Way and the collective blood pressure of the lifeblood of this organization: its fans...
I just sense many fans think last year was a fluke. I don't get it.
2020-21 was the fluke and even then you could see that Jones was the lone bright spot on offense even if there were very few moments of prolific play.
I think this is a lazy read that a lot of Giants fans make.
Hands down the biggest and most consistent difference from 2 years ago to last year is the number of easy plays Jones had. Especially vis a vis wide open running lanes on play fakes or otherwise just extremely well called plays.
In the games that those weren't there he actually looked very similar to the player that made all the mistakes you claim he is past which is just a bad take considering the very last game he played was littered with those problems.
He took big steps forward in his ability to play smart and get through his reads and make very accurate throws at a higher frequency last year. However that occurred very clearly in streaks which snowballed the other direction when he faced challenging defenses and/or where BDs game plan was less effective.
This is no different than any average to above average QB in the league (other than what I would say the extremely Jekyll and Hyde nature based on very clear confidence issues perfectly exemplified by his range of performance against the Vikings and Eagles)
Anyone that is so confident Jones is good is just completely ignoring the risk factors in his play and I'd say general poise and demeanor as a human. I'm certainly not confident he will take a step back or that we saw some kind of fluke performance with better coaching.
But the very thing you claim he is past and past sustainably is actually his biggest very present risk. Pressure and lack of easy opportunities for plays absolutely causes him to have all the same serious flaws he showed with more frequency in prior seasons.
Which really begs the question is how much of this is BD? And if it is any tangible amount why on earth would you pay him so much?
I didn't mean to single anyone out with the 15 Tds line--it's just tiring to see that same line regurgitated by NYG fans and NYG haters alike as a major indictment on the QB when the reality is, Jones played well enough to lead a slightly above average offense without any major WR talent. Look deeper than 15 TDs is all I am saying.
We all want Jones to blow the roof off the NFL.
The Giants have constructed a deal where the floor of his agreement has him right outside of the top guys, and the incentives in place to pay him like a top guy if he is.
This is the ultimate trust but verify deal.
It's not a vote of total confidence, but its certainly not a bargain. It's the type of deal you give a guy you think is the answer, but aren't ready to fully leap.
The offensive talent improved on paper kind of and on a bit of preseason hopium, so I guess its fair to project some improvement from Jones (I think another year in the system should be big), although not sure how much higher you can get than 6th best rated QB last year.
Even just from last year, it seemed Jones improved as the season went on.
Jackson got more money because he's the better player. Did Jones even have a better year than him? Jackson played in 5 fewer games, still threw more TDs than Jones and was only 1 win shy of him. I don't agree with that take at all.
I do not think any of these QB contracts are worth it....unless the QB is able to win a Super Bowls.
Which makes list small.
Daniel is set for life...congratulations.
There were many a futile hapless teams from 2011 to 2019. I m hoping for a much more exciting fun team going forward, like last year s. Giants have determined for now, Jones is their guy, what they paid him is definitely in line with what quarterbacks viewed as the guy make, not really sure why you have a problem with this contract
Now, Win us a Super Bowl. (See Eli for reference).
He did not win at Duke and did not win with the Giants.
For 7 years people have made excuses for him.
No more excuses: win or you are gone.
He did not win at Duke and did not win with the Giants.
For 7 years people have made excuses for him.
No more excuses: win or you are gone.
Amen!
He will either live up to it, or not.
And I don't think 15TD will be living up to it.
Will 25?
35? -two passing TD per games would probably win everyone over.