That Greg squealing would actually screw Tom? Mattson says to keep it quiet, Tom tells Greg, Greg tells Shiv and she goes nuts. Mattson isn't upset with Tom? Or i guess not enough to take away CEO from him?
Why would he be upset with Tom? Greg used a translation app to translate Matsson and Oskar's conversation to learn the plan.
Once Greg told Tom what he learned, Tom called Matsson and said "big problem" or whatever he said to let Matsson know word was out and the Roy's would be scrambling to get votes now that they possibly lured Shiv back and the vote on the go-jo sale would be close.
Was Greg aware it was going to be Tom when he called Kendall? I don't think he was.
Maybe I'm mistaken.
They only found it was Tom when they were at the house and Shiv could read it on his face.
And Tom told her, when he said "Shiv, it's me"
Shiv SE that in motion- with her pushing ideas on Mattson, that article that made it seem like Mattson was her puppet and then her answer about Tom.to Mattson- he knew she couldn't be truly trusted and knew that Tom would be his perfect puppet.
the scene in the limo at the end I kind of wondered if Shiv pulled a con on all of them and orchestrated the whole thing.
Maybe left the conference room to milk the moment, cherish the power she always wanted and dramatically and ruthlessly put the nail in Kendall's coffin.
But I kind of think I'm giving her character (and the writers) too much credit. Her reaction to Tom telling her it was him definitely didn't seem like she was the puppet master unless that act was part of the ruse.
it would be a better "Shiv story", if that was the case and it was her doing. If in fact she felt like Tom as US CEO and Matsson (who wants to bang her) as global CEO put her in some better position than she would ever get from Kendall, but again, I don't know it's fair to say she manipulated Matsson into naming Tom CEO (she was lukewarm on it when Lukas point blank asked her) about it and I'm not sure what Tom as US CEO does for her. Other it's not Kendall. Maybe that's enough to give her some satisfaction.
if Shiv planned it we would have been shown that and if we were I wouldn’t have as big of an issue with it as I do. Generally I don’t like when vital decisions are made uncharacteristically, or against the shows rules, and out of thin air to create fake drama.
but maybe that’s the point. These kids couldn’t shoot straight and Tom, who had to always maneuver for his seat at the table, was just able to maneuver (with some luck) the only seat left against a bunch of incompetent dummies. Shiv got the worst sentence because the entire dynamic of her relationship with Tom basically flipped. In the end, she was so desperate to stay close to power she took his hand.
The entire show is the kids couldn't shoot straight
That's why Logan never retired and he sold to Mattson. The kids always talked a tough game behind the scenes, but every single time it was time for them to step-up or take the lead, they choked it away or acted irrationally.
To me there was always an underling of, "I'd rather watch the whole thing burn down than see one of my siblings take over" and that's pretty much what happened.
Their other downfall was power divided. Logan and Mattson had absolute power, the kids could never realize their power was divided by 3 and they needed to work toghether but their egos prevented that. You either have absolute power (Logan/Mattson) or complete shill (Greg/Tom) to 'win'. The Roy kids had that taste of power but in the end didn't or couldn't realize there would need to be a compromise to 'win'.
I do think their is an irony that Ken finally seemed to get it and step-up but all his previous missteps were too much baggage.
Scene - Ken had an opportunity to step up and passionately explain why the GoJo offer should be rejected. Logan would have eloquently logically and forcefully argued his case. Instead Ken wasted the opportunity by saying limply “you’ve all read the deck, let’s just skip to the vote”. He could have swayed Shiv and possibly others who were not entirely sold on GoJo with an epic presentation. I think people would have overlooked his temper and shady history if he was smart inspirational and competent. But he did not have his father’s charisma work ethic or smarts.The contrast between the video of Logan charming the dinner guests with his riff on the Presidents and Ken’s speech to kickoff the board meeting could not have been more stark. He thought because he’s the eldest boy he can take the throne without putting in the effort.
Forgave Greg other than Greg not knowing Tom would be CEO. Although I was dying laughing when Mattsen called Greg Judas.
I think because he felt like he could control him and it would give Tom some measure of power in a role he will realistically have none as a figurehead/puppet.
Putting the sticker on Greg's forehead was funny, kind of symbolic too, IMO, sort of a "this is the only remnant from Logan's world I am keeping" moment.
Forgave Greg other than Greg not knowing Tom would be CEO. Although I was dying laughing when Mattsen called Greg Judas.
I think Tom respected Greg for it. When he told Shiv after she found out he was going to be CEO, “if the roles were reversed, you’d do the same.”
Greg made the right move. He had no idea Tom was getting CEO, he just wanted to stay on. Tom hinted at a massive pay cut. So, Greg uses his information to his advantage.
I think Tom respected it.
RE: RE: I am still struggling to understand why Tom
Forgave Greg other than Greg not knowing Tom would be CEO. Although I was dying laughing when Mattsen called Greg Judas.
I think Tom respected Greg for it. When he told Shiv after she found out he was going to be CEO, “if the roles were reversed, you’d do the same.”
Greg made the right move. He had no idea Tom was getting CEO, he just wanted to stay on. Tom hinted at a massive pay cut. So, Greg uses his information to his advantage.
I think Tom respected it.
The move was similar to Tom’s move at end of season 3. I think Tom also trusts Greg and that was why he said “I just had enough capital” to save you. I think if you look at the show it is really the only relationship that truly survives. Greg is going to still be his lackey. But with that said, it was a bold move against Mattsen and Mattsen knows it—not sure how it could be forgiven so easily.
In stories (whether it be books, tv, movies) there really is little ambiguity when you go after the king. Either you kill the king or the king kills you. Greg went after Mattsen and is still around breathing which is just an unconventional outcome.
I often think, why do people make decisions, based on what. Thinking through the Roy sibs, although well educated they were always trapped by their father's shadow and subsequent jockeying and jealousy played out in that conf room. I think Shiv had a ton of stuff running through her head and had she had to vote first? Might have voted yes. But when the hammer stroke fell she voted as they are all wont to do, even Rome barely said yes.
Scene - Ken had an opportunity to step up and passionately explain why the GoJo offer should be rejected. Logan would have eloquently logically and forcefully argued his case. Instead Ken wasted the opportunity by saying limply “you’ve all read the deck, let’s just skip to the vote”. He could have swayed Shiv and possibly others who were not entirely sold on GoJo with an epic presentation. I think people would have overlooked his temper and shady history if he was smart inspirational and competent. But he did not have his father’s charisma work ethic or smarts.The contrast between the video of Logan charming the dinner guests with his riff on the Presidents and Ken’s speech to kickoff the board meeting could not have been more stark. He thought because he’s the eldest boy he can take the throne without putting in the effort.
This is a great point, that I really didn’t think about. I think he got overly confident because he knew he had the numbers to push through. This season has shown that Kendall can give a great speech and get people behind him, but his own ego got in the best of him as the most crucial time possible.
In comment 16124812 JOrthman said:They only found it was Tom when they were at the house and Shiv could read it on his face./////////
And Tom told her, when he said "Shiv, it's me"
Shiv wasn't reading it, yet, still stunned by Mattson's switch, she was groping--as she thought Tom was too: I saw those moments as taut and dramatic, when Tom seemed to be on the same page with Shiv in not knowing who Mattson was going to annoint--when he had known for the past xx hours--as the ultimate stab in the back and smug, controlled schadenfreud and vengeance for all the months of her smug keeping Tom at her family name fingertips: "I have it and you don't, and, yes, it's me." The tables turned once and for all from Tom as hanger on, dependent on Shiv for access, but now he rules the roost.
I got a huge kick out of the scene when Tom goes at Greg
Forgave Greg other than Greg not knowing Tom would be CEO. Although I was dying laughing when Mattsen called Greg Judas.
I think Tom respected Greg for it. When he told Shiv after she found out he was going to be CEO, “if the roles were reversed, you’d do the same.”
Greg made the right move. He had no idea Tom was getting CEO, he just wanted to stay on. Tom hinted at a massive pay cut. So, Greg uses his information to his advantage.
I think Tom respected it.
Exactly, he knew he would have done the same thing and kind of saw Greg as a version of him.
In comment 16124812 JOrthman said:They only found it was Tom when they were at the house and Shiv could read it on his face./////////
And Tom told her, when he said "Shiv, it's me"
Shiv wasn't reading it, yet, still stunned by Mattson's switch, she was groping--as she thought Tom was too: I saw those moments as taut and dramatic, when Tom seemed to be on the same page with Shiv in not knowing who Mattson was going to annoint--when he had known for the past xx hours--as the ultimate stab in the back and smug, controlled schadenfreud and vengeance for all the months of her smug keeping Tom at her family name fingertips: "I have it and you don't, and, yes, it's me." The tables turned once and for all from Tom as hanger on, dependent on Shiv for access, but now he rules the roost.
I disagree. I felt like she sensed it, based on the look on her face. His own demeanor in the scene gave it away and then he said it, which confirmed what she was thinking.
to me that "Tom would have done the same thing" which is a shitty thing and could have cost Tom his future, so he "respects" the backstabbery and deceit by Greg so he gives him a job?
lol. Ok.
The "you would have done the same thing" to Shiv makes sense and those two keeping a relationship also makes sense, since besides everything else in their history that is who they always were in their relationship (selfish, power hungry, etc.) and now they will share a child.
But IMO Tom keeps Greg for Tom (power) not because he would have done the same thing or because he "respects" it.
who deserved it. Such a strange qualifier given how you can argue most if not all of the cast doesn’t deserve it. And I’m sure Logan loves that Tom, a guy he treated like a peasant, is now the face of his company, lol.
Just don’t like the 11th hour mind change to have it end on a “Fuck You” moment. It usually means lazy writing and that’s exactly how it felt watching the last 20 minutes.
100% agree. You could make the argument that Tom deserved it because he was the most ruthless (next to Logan, of course). The kids had no chance, they were so damaged from growing up under Logan’s thumb that it would have been a miracle that any of them were remotely normal. Tom doesn’t have that excuse. He chose this lifestyle and was willing to sacrifice any dignity to get the ring, even as short-lived as that would be (the Swede would almost certainly can him the minute the Waystar sale is approved).
In comment 16124812 JOrthman said:They only found it was Tom when they were at the house and Shiv could read it on his face./////////
And Tom told her, when he said "Shiv, it's me"
Shiv wasn't reading it, yet, still stunned by Mattson's switch, she was groping--as she thought Tom was too: I saw those moments as taut and dramatic, when Tom seemed to be on the same page with Shiv in not knowing who Mattson was going to annoint--when he had known for the past xx hours--as the ultimate stab in the back and smug, controlled schadenfreud and vengeance for all the months of her smug keeping Tom at her family name fingertips: "I have it and you don't, and, yes, it's me." The tables turned once and for all from Tom as hanger on, dependent on Shiv for access, but now he rules the roost.
I disagree. I felt like she sensed it, based on the look on her face. His own demeanor in the scene gave it away and then he said it, which confirmed what she was thinking.
I felt like she sensed something was up. She could tell Tom had some powerful intel and she knew she had to draw it out.
who deserved it. Such a strange qualifier given how you can argue most if not all of the cast doesn’t deserve it. And I’m sure Logan loves that Tom, a guy he treated like a peasant, is now the face of his company, lol.
Just don’t like the 11th hour mind change to have it end on a “Fuck You” moment. It usually means lazy writing and that’s exactly how it felt watching the last 20 minutes.
100% agree. You could make the argument that Tom deserved it because he was the most ruthless (next to Logan, of course). The kids had no chance, they were so damaged from growing up under Logan’s thumb that it would have been a miracle that any of them were remotely normal. Tom doesn’t have that excuse. He chose this lifestyle and was willing to sacrifice any dignity to get the ring, even as short-lived as that would be (the Swede would almost certainly can him the minute the Waystar sale is approved).
I also think Tom who is experienced AF also got himself a golden parachute ($100M+). As much of a sycophant that he is he is experienced and knows what comes with CEO perks. The motherlode of stocks and a buyout if he gets fired. I mean how long do CEOs last anyway?
tom may be ceo but matsson could change his mind and shit can him any time. tom has fewer people of influence he can trust than before. greg is going to be his mini pain sponge and will probably be an asset for tom. his betrayal of matsson should have worked and sort of proved he has learned under tom's mentorship, he didnt know he was betraying tom at the time.
the big logic gap for me is still the actual board vote. i think some of the above points about kendall patting himself on the back too much are probably right. she and roman couldnt stomach giving him a W and were elated to give him the L. kendall played the best hand and did "deserve" it more than shiv who got herself screwed betting on the wrong horse, roman who went through an emotional breakdown all season, and matsson who was consistently sloppier and more erratic trying to close the deal. kendall was the alternative that got the majority of the board votes not counting his sibs because he actually did present an arguably better alternative. roman and shiv proved positive that they were bullshit with their own misplays and i think it's possible they were most afraid of kendall continuing to get positive recognition. the eulogies were basically a metaphor for the whole season, roman fucked it, kendall stepped up unexpectedly, shiv desperately tried to do the same but failed.
the way the vote played out still feels like a logic gap though because frank went first with everyone thinking kendall had the votes, why in that scenario would he vote for matsson? for self preservation wouldnt he have flipped his vote?
to me that "Tom would have done the same thing" which is a shitty thing and could have cost Tom his future, so he "respects" the backstabbery and deceit by Greg so he gives him a job?
lol. Ok.
The "you would have done the same thing" to Shiv makes sense and those two keeping a relationship also makes sense, since besides everything else in their history that is who they always were in their relationship (selfish, power hungry, etc.) and now they will share a child.
But IMO Tom keeps Greg for Tom (power) not because he would have done the same thing or because he "respects" it.
but, just my opinion.
He didn't know it was Tom at the time. Tom never told him, so he didn't know who he was backstabbing. He only knew he was trying to secure his future. All Tom told him was that he thought he'd be "Ok" with the GoJo winning.
he would survive the gojo sale and he would, he had aligned himself with Matsson. Greg knew this.
When Greg found out about the plan to not name Shiv USA CEO, he brought that information to Kendall understanding it would blow up the deal, and Greg would have a place in Waystar/Royco leadership leaving Tom hung out to dry.
Greg didn't do it to hang Tom out to dry. He did it to help himself, but the results would be the same. Kendall made clear he had no use for Tom so the results of Greg "trading" the information to Kendall would have been the end of Tom (in any capacity with Waystar/Royco).
RE: tom kept greg around bc he's still useful to him
tom may be ceo but matsson could change his mind and shit can him any time. tom has fewer people of influence he can trust than before. greg is going to be his mini pain sponge and will probably be an asset for tom. his betrayal of matsson should have worked and sort of proved he has learned under tom's mentorship, he didnt know he was betraying tom at the time.
the big logic gap for me is still the actual board vote. i think some of the above points about kendall patting himself on the back too much are probably right. she and roman couldnt stomach giving him a W and were elated to give him the L. kendall played the best hand and did "deserve" it more than shiv who got herself screwed betting on the wrong horse, roman who went through an emotional breakdown all season, and matsson who was consistently sloppier and more erratic trying to close the deal. kendall was the alternative that got the majority of the board votes not counting his sibs because he actually did present an arguably better alternative. roman and shiv proved positive that they were bullshit with their own misplays and i think it's possible they were most afraid of kendall continuing to get positive recognition. the eulogies were basically a metaphor for the whole season, roman fucked it, kendall stepped up unexpectedly, shiv desperately tried to do the same but failed.
the way the vote played out still feels like a logic gap though because frank went first with everyone thinking kendall had the votes, why in that scenario would he vote for matsson? for self preservation wouldnt he have flipped his vote?
I don't think it was quite obvious they had the votes. After the call from Tom, Mattson goes on red alert and we don't know who Gojo called. Shiv was supposed to lean on Sandy and Sandy and we never saw what transpired there either, but obviously not good enough since they voted, 'yes'.
I dont really think Frank was threatened by Kendall so he wanted to sell, knowing worst case, he still had a seat at the table if the Roys won.
he would survive the gojo sale and he would, he had aligned himself with Matsson. Greg knew this.
When Greg found out about the plan to not name Shiv USA CEO, he brought that information to Kendall understanding it would blow up the deal, and Greg would have a place in Waystar/Royco leadership leaving Tom hung out to dry.
Greg didn't do it to hang Tom out to dry. He did it to help himself, but the results would be the same. Kendall made clear he had no use for Tom so the results of Greg "trading" the information to Kendall would have been the end of Tom (in any capacity with Waystar/Royco).
yes but tom presented a not-compelling case for the new world post-gojo to greg with the threat of the massive paycut. whether he was fucking with him or just trying to throw him off the scent, tom played the key role in panicking greg into thinking the sibs were his better play.
he would survive the gojo sale and he would, he had aligned himself with Matsson. Greg knew this.
When Greg found out about the plan to not name Shiv USA CEO, he brought that information to Kendall understanding it would blow up the deal, and Greg would have a place in Waystar/Royco leadership leaving Tom hung out to dry.
Greg didn't do it to hang Tom out to dry. He did it to help himself, but the results would be the same. Kendall made clear he had no use for Tom so the results of Greg "trading" the information to Kendall would have been the end of Tom (in any capacity with Waystar/Royco).
yes but tom presented a not-compelling case for the new world post-gojo to greg with the threat of the massive paycut. whether he was fucking with him or just trying to throw him off the scent, tom played the key role in panicking greg into thinking the sibs were his better play.
Did Tom say Greg got paid 200k? Did I hear that scene right and he would probably get bumped down to 30-40k if Matsson kept him? lol.
RE: RE: tom kept greg around bc he's still useful to him
I dont really think Frank was threatened by Kendall so he wanted to sell, knowing worst case, he still had a seat at the table if the Roys won.
Agree here, even w/o a seat at the table if Kendall, et al. won. Frank wanted his payday after all was said and done, quite enough of the Roys for one lifetime. He was pretty candid when asked at several junctures his opinion of Logan.
RE: RE: tom kept greg around bc he's still useful to him
I dont really think Frank was threatened by Kendall so he wanted to sell, knowing worst case, he still had a seat at the table if the Roys won.
i think frank had a seat at the table if kendall won but only if he was on their team. that's why i think it's strange he voted the way he did because unlike karl he had never really expressed any desperation for the golden parachute. and then at the end both of them talked about possibly wanting to stay on which we know wont happen. frank's only chance to remain in the mix was voting for kendall so he self sabotaged, but i guess that's his sort of his MO back to when logan fired him the first time.
he would survive the gojo sale and he would, he had aligned himself with Matsson. Greg knew this.
When Greg found out about the plan to not name Shiv USA CEO, he brought that information to Kendall understanding it would blow up the deal, and Greg would have a place in Waystar/Royco leadership leaving Tom hung out to dry.
Greg didn't do it to hang Tom out to dry. He did it to help himself, but the results would be the same. Kendall made clear he had no use for Tom so the results of Greg "trading" the information to Kendall would have been the end of Tom (in any capacity with Waystar/Royco).
yes but tom presented a not-compelling case for the new world post-gojo to greg with the threat of the massive paycut. whether he was fucking with him or just trying to throw him off the scent, tom played the key role in panicking greg into thinking the sibs were his better play.
Did Tom say Greg got paid 200k? Did I hear that scene right and he would probably get bumped down to 30-40k if Matsson kept him? lol.
i think you heard right, tom's greatest joy was fucking with greg and in that instance it almost cost him everything.
i think everyone gets focused so much on the 3 kids being unlikeable screw ups that they look past the scale of everyone else being unlikeable screw ups sometimes at an even grander scale.
The show presented him as a buffoon character, while at the same time showed that he knew how to protect himself. When they sent him on the scapegoat mission of destroying documents, which was early in the show, Greg adroitly protected himself by saving some of the documents. He's inexperienced, but he's not dumb.
who deserved it. Such a strange qualifier given how you can argue most if not all of the cast doesn’t deserve it. And I’m sure Logan loves that Tom, a guy he treated like a peasant, is now the face of his company, lol.
Just don’t like the 11th hour mind change to have it end on a “Fuck You” moment. It usually means lazy writing and that’s exactly how it felt watching the last 20 minutes.
100% agree. You could make the argument that Tom deserved it because he was the most ruthless (next to Logan, of course). The kids had no chance, they were so damaged from growing up under Logan’s thumb that it would have been a miracle that any of them were remotely normal. Tom doesn’t have that excuse. He chose this lifestyle and was willing to sacrifice any dignity to get the ring, even as short-lived as that would be (the Swede would almost certainly can him the minute the Waystar sale is approved).
I also think Tom who is experienced AF also got himself a golden parachute ($100M+). As much of a sycophant that he is he is experienced and knows what comes with CEO perks. The motherlode of stocks and a buyout if he gets fired. I mean how long do CEOs last anyway?
Sure, but money isn’t the issue, power is. His wife has all the money in the world, now granted, it’s not HIS money, but I think the power, and the proximity to it, drove both of them.
Shiv has her husband as CEO, and more importantly, the real power player who wants to fuck her. Meanwhile, she’s gotten rid of her annoying brothers. Win, win.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Not sure why people are hung up on
who deserved it. Such a strange qualifier given how you can argue most if not all of the cast doesn’t deserve it. And I’m sure Logan loves that Tom, a guy he treated like a peasant, is now the face of his company, lol.
Just don’t like the 11th hour mind change to have it end on a “Fuck You” moment. It usually means lazy writing and that’s exactly how it felt watching the last 20 minutes.
100% agree. You could make the argument that Tom deserved it because he was the most ruthless (next to Logan, of course). The kids had no chance, they were so damaged from growing up under Logan’s thumb that it would have been a miracle that any of them were remotely normal. Tom doesn’t have that excuse. He chose this lifestyle and was willing to sacrifice any dignity to get the ring, even as short-lived as that would be (the Swede would almost certainly can him the minute the Waystar sale is approved).
I also think Tom who is experienced AF also got himself a golden parachute ($100M+). As much of a sycophant that he is he is experienced and knows what comes with CEO perks. The motherlode of stocks and a buyout if he gets fired. I mean how long do CEOs last anyway?
Sure, but money isn’t the issue, power is. His wife has all the money in the world, now granted, it’s not HIS money, but I think the power, and the proximity to it, drove both of them.
Shiv has her husband as CEO, and more importantly, the real power player who wants to fuck her. Meanwhile, she’s gotten rid of her annoying brothers. Win, win.
Not saying he didn't crave that (power) but he wasn't in that weight class of wealth imo. Tom may have had tens of millions of dollars, but he was living the billionaire lifestyle due to Shiv. I think money was huge for Tom, more than power.
I still remember his conversation with Greg about being rich, "Its better than being a superhero, you can do whatever you want"
little mentioned is Romulus, alone, at a (cool) bar, and a martini
allowing himself a brief parting of the lips, as I read it, a smug and self-satisfied smirk: his two older siblings, each of whom has tried at various times to screw and backstab him, have gone down in flames. As the one who probably wanted Royco power to wield the least, he can let the C-suite pass him by without too much angst. He's a billionaire who can play his personal games--Gerri might even retire to join him ): (:
Scene - Ken had an opportunity to step up and passionately explain why the GoJo offer should be rejected. Logan would have eloquently logically and forcefully argued his case. Instead Ken wasted the opportunity by saying limply “you’ve all read the deck, let’s just skip to the vote”. He could have swayed Shiv and possibly others who were not entirely sold on GoJo with an epic presentation. I think people would have overlooked his temper and shady history if he was smart inspirational and competent. But he did not have his father’s charisma work ethic or smarts.The contrast between the video of Logan charming the dinner guests with his riff on the Presidents and Ken’s speech to kickoff the board meeting could not have been more stark. He thought because he’s the eldest boy he can take the throne without putting in the effort.
I think you’re misreading people’s motivations, in particular, Shiv. She says during the conference room scene, ”Really I love you, but I cannot fucking stomach you.” There was no speech or business plan that was going to sway her. She just didn’t want it to be him if it wasn’t going to be her.
As for your point about Logan, the one thing that separated him from his kids was that he was calculating about business. He was never going to let emotions get in the way of the numbers. His kids were utter failures at that. He also had a personality that engendered fear and loyalty. Matsson is somewhat similar in that way. During this entire show, the only person who stayed loyal to one of the kids was Stewy to Ken. Willa was loyal to Con up to a point and Gerri was loyal to Roman until he fired her in a fit of pique.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is Shiv fashioned herself
as a feminist (whether rightly or wrongly) and I'm sure it ate at her that all the men were set to be winning.
If you had told me 5 years ago: "You're going to be really caught up in a fictionalized story of billionaire nepo-babies where the *losers* walk away with billions," I would not have believed you.
Why would he be upset with Tom? Greg used a translation app to translate Matsson and Oskar's conversation to learn the plan.
Once Greg told Tom what he learned, Tom called Matsson and said "big problem" or whatever he said to let Matsson know word was out and the Roy's would be scrambling to get votes now that they possibly lured Shiv back and the vote on the go-jo sale would be close.
Maybe I'm mistaken.
Maybe I'm mistaken.
Yeah, he just knew it wouldn't be Shiv
Maybe I'm mistaken.
They only found it was Tom when they were at the house and Shiv could read it on his face.
Quote:
Was Greg aware it was going to be Tom when he called Kendall? I don't think he was.
Maybe I'm mistaken.
They only found it was Tom when they were at the house and Shiv could read it on his face.
And Tom told her, when he said "Shiv, it's me"
Quote:
In comment 16124803 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
Was Greg aware it was going to be Tom when he called Kendall? I don't think he was.
Maybe I'm mistaken.
They only found it was Tom when they were at the house and Shiv could read it on his face.
And Tom told her, when he said "Shiv, it's me"
Shiv SE that in motion- with her pushing ideas on Mattson, that article that made it seem like Mattson was her puppet and then her answer about Tom.to Mattson- he knew she couldn't be truly trusted and knew that Tom would be his perfect puppet.
Maybe left the conference room to milk the moment, cherish the power she always wanted and dramatically and ruthlessly put the nail in Kendall's coffin.
But I kind of think I'm giving her character (and the writers) too much credit. Her reaction to Tom telling her it was him definitely didn't seem like she was the puppet master unless that act was part of the ruse.
it would be a better "Shiv story", if that was the case and it was her doing. If in fact she felt like Tom as US CEO and Matsson (who wants to bang her) as global CEO put her in some better position than she would ever get from Kendall, but again, I don't know it's fair to say she manipulated Matsson into naming Tom CEO (she was lukewarm on it when Lukas point blank asked her) about it and I'm not sure what Tom as US CEO does for her. Other it's not Kendall. Maybe that's enough to give her some satisfaction.
BTW- Kendall's breakdown moment of I am the Eldest Boy was borderline quite telling..
BTW- Kendall's breakdown moment of I am the Eldest Boy was borderline quite telling..
Sorry borderline psychotic and quite telling.
To me there was always an underling of, "I'd rather watch the whole thing burn down than see one of my siblings take over" and that's pretty much what happened.
Their other downfall was power divided. Logan and Mattson had absolute power, the kids could never realize their power was divided by 3 and they needed to work toghether but their egos prevented that. You either have absolute power (Logan/Mattson) or complete shill (Greg/Tom) to 'win'. The Roy kids had that taste of power but in the end didn't or couldn't realize there would need to be a compromise to 'win'.
I do think their is an irony that Ken finally seemed to get it and step-up but all his previous missteps were too much baggage.
I think because he felt like he could control him and it would give Tom some measure of power in a role he will realistically have none as a figurehead/puppet.
Putting the sticker on Greg's forehead was funny, kind of symbolic too, IMO, sort of a "this is the only remnant from Logan's world I am keeping" moment.
I think Tom respected Greg for it. When he told Shiv after she found out he was going to be CEO, “if the roles were reversed, you’d do the same.”
Greg made the right move. He had no idea Tom was getting CEO, he just wanted to stay on. Tom hinted at a massive pay cut. So, Greg uses his information to his advantage.
I think Tom respected it.
Quote:
Forgave Greg other than Greg not knowing Tom would be CEO. Although I was dying laughing when Mattsen called Greg Judas.
I think Tom respected Greg for it. When he told Shiv after she found out he was going to be CEO, “if the roles were reversed, you’d do the same.”
Greg made the right move. He had no idea Tom was getting CEO, he just wanted to stay on. Tom hinted at a massive pay cut. So, Greg uses his information to his advantage.
I think Tom respected it.
The move was similar to Tom’s move at end of season 3. I think Tom also trusts Greg and that was why he said “I just had enough capital” to save you. I think if you look at the show it is really the only relationship that truly survives. Greg is going to still be his lackey. But with that said, it was a bold move against Mattsen and Mattsen knows it—not sure how it could be forgiven so easily.
He didn't "forgive" as much as he made him his stooge.
This is a great point, that I really didn’t think about. I think he got overly confident because he knew he had the numbers to push through. This season has shown that Kendall can give a great speech and get people behind him, but his own ego got in the best of him as the most crucial time possible.
And Tom told her, when he said "Shiv, it's me"
Shiv wasn't reading it, yet, still stunned by Mattson's switch, she was groping--as she thought Tom was too: I saw those moments as taut and dramatic, when Tom seemed to be on the same page with Shiv in not knowing who Mattson was going to annoint--when he had known for the past xx hours--as the ultimate stab in the back and smug, controlled schadenfreud and vengeance for all the months of her smug keeping Tom at her family name fingertips: "I have it and you don't, and, yes, it's me." The tables turned once and for all from Tom as hanger on, dependent on Shiv for access, but now he rules the roost.
Quote:
Forgave Greg other than Greg not knowing Tom would be CEO. Although I was dying laughing when Mattsen called Greg Judas.
I think Tom respected Greg for it. When he told Shiv after she found out he was going to be CEO, “if the roles were reversed, you’d do the same.”
Greg made the right move. He had no idea Tom was getting CEO, he just wanted to stay on. Tom hinted at a massive pay cut. So, Greg uses his information to his advantage.
I think Tom respected it.
Exactly, he knew he would have done the same thing and kind of saw Greg as a version of him.
Quote:
In comment 16124812 JOrthman said:They only found it was Tom when they were at the house and Shiv could read it on his face./////////
And Tom told her, when he said "Shiv, it's me"
Shiv wasn't reading it, yet, still stunned by Mattson's switch, she was groping--as she thought Tom was too: I saw those moments as taut and dramatic, when Tom seemed to be on the same page with Shiv in not knowing who Mattson was going to annoint--when he had known for the past xx hours--as the ultimate stab in the back and smug, controlled schadenfreud and vengeance for all the months of her smug keeping Tom at her family name fingertips: "I have it and you don't, and, yes, it's me." The tables turned once and for all from Tom as hanger on, dependent on Shiv for access, but now he rules the roost.
I disagree. I felt like she sensed it, based on the look on her face. His own demeanor in the scene gave it away and then he said it, which confirmed what she was thinking.
lol. Ok.
The "you would have done the same thing" to Shiv makes sense and those two keeping a relationship also makes sense, since besides everything else in their history that is who they always were in their relationship (selfish, power hungry, etc.) and now they will share a child.
But IMO Tom keeps Greg for Tom (power) not because he would have done the same thing or because he "respects" it.
but, just my opinion.
Just don’t like the 11th hour mind change to have it end on a “Fuck You” moment. It usually means lazy writing and that’s exactly how it felt watching the last 20 minutes.
100% agree. You could make the argument that Tom deserved it because he was the most ruthless (next to Logan, of course). The kids had no chance, they were so damaged from growing up under Logan’s thumb that it would have been a miracle that any of them were remotely normal. Tom doesn’t have that excuse. He chose this lifestyle and was willing to sacrifice any dignity to get the ring, even as short-lived as that would be (the Swede would almost certainly can him the minute the Waystar sale is approved).
The finale began with just about the most vulnerable we've ever seen Shiv, person to person, asking Tom if he wanted a real relationship.
My read is her pregnancy was the nail in the coffin for her decision. Anointing Tom was "convenient".
Quote:
In comment 16124815 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 16124812 JOrthman said:They only found it was Tom when they were at the house and Shiv could read it on his face./////////
And Tom told her, when he said "Shiv, it's me"
Shiv wasn't reading it, yet, still stunned by Mattson's switch, she was groping--as she thought Tom was too: I saw those moments as taut and dramatic, when Tom seemed to be on the same page with Shiv in not knowing who Mattson was going to annoint--when he had known for the past xx hours--as the ultimate stab in the back and smug, controlled schadenfreud and vengeance for all the months of her smug keeping Tom at her family name fingertips: "I have it and you don't, and, yes, it's me." The tables turned once and for all from Tom as hanger on, dependent on Shiv for access, but now he rules the roost.
I disagree. I felt like she sensed it, based on the look on her face. His own demeanor in the scene gave it away and then he said it, which confirmed what she was thinking.
I felt like she sensed something was up. She could tell Tom had some powerful intel and she knew she had to draw it out.
Quote:
who deserved it. Such a strange qualifier given how you can argue most if not all of the cast doesn’t deserve it. And I’m sure Logan loves that Tom, a guy he treated like a peasant, is now the face of his company, lol.
Just don’t like the 11th hour mind change to have it end on a “Fuck You” moment. It usually means lazy writing and that’s exactly how it felt watching the last 20 minutes.
100% agree. You could make the argument that Tom deserved it because he was the most ruthless (next to Logan, of course). The kids had no chance, they were so damaged from growing up under Logan’s thumb that it would have been a miracle that any of them were remotely normal. Tom doesn’t have that excuse. He chose this lifestyle and was willing to sacrifice any dignity to get the ring, even as short-lived as that would be (the Swede would almost certainly can him the minute the Waystar sale is approved).
I also think Tom who is experienced AF also got himself a golden parachute ($100M+). As much of a sycophant that he is he is experienced and knows what comes with CEO perks. The motherlode of stocks and a buyout if he gets fired. I mean how long do CEOs last anyway?
the big logic gap for me is still the actual board vote. i think some of the above points about kendall patting himself on the back too much are probably right. she and roman couldnt stomach giving him a W and were elated to give him the L. kendall played the best hand and did "deserve" it more than shiv who got herself screwed betting on the wrong horse, roman who went through an emotional breakdown all season, and matsson who was consistently sloppier and more erratic trying to close the deal. kendall was the alternative that got the majority of the board votes not counting his sibs because he actually did present an arguably better alternative. roman and shiv proved positive that they were bullshit with their own misplays and i think it's possible they were most afraid of kendall continuing to get positive recognition. the eulogies were basically a metaphor for the whole season, roman fucked it, kendall stepped up unexpectedly, shiv desperately tried to do the same but failed.
the way the vote played out still feels like a logic gap though because frank went first with everyone thinking kendall had the votes, why in that scenario would he vote for matsson? for self preservation wouldnt he have flipped his vote?
lol. Ok.
The "you would have done the same thing" to Shiv makes sense and those two keeping a relationship also makes sense, since besides everything else in their history that is who they always were in their relationship (selfish, power hungry, etc.) and now they will share a child.
But IMO Tom keeps Greg for Tom (power) not because he would have done the same thing or because he "respects" it.
but, just my opinion.
He didn't know it was Tom at the time. Tom never told him, so he didn't know who he was backstabbing. He only knew he was trying to secure his future. All Tom told him was that he thought he'd be "Ok" with the GoJo winning.
When Greg found out about the plan to not name Shiv USA CEO, he brought that information to Kendall understanding it would blow up the deal, and Greg would have a place in Waystar/Royco leadership leaving Tom hung out to dry.
Greg didn't do it to hang Tom out to dry. He did it to help himself, but the results would be the same. Kendall made clear he had no use for Tom so the results of Greg "trading" the information to Kendall would have been the end of Tom (in any capacity with Waystar/Royco).
the big logic gap for me is still the actual board vote. i think some of the above points about kendall patting himself on the back too much are probably right. she and roman couldnt stomach giving him a W and were elated to give him the L. kendall played the best hand and did "deserve" it more than shiv who got herself screwed betting on the wrong horse, roman who went through an emotional breakdown all season, and matsson who was consistently sloppier and more erratic trying to close the deal. kendall was the alternative that got the majority of the board votes not counting his sibs because he actually did present an arguably better alternative. roman and shiv proved positive that they were bullshit with their own misplays and i think it's possible they were most afraid of kendall continuing to get positive recognition. the eulogies were basically a metaphor for the whole season, roman fucked it, kendall stepped up unexpectedly, shiv desperately tried to do the same but failed.
the way the vote played out still feels like a logic gap though because frank went first with everyone thinking kendall had the votes, why in that scenario would he vote for matsson? for self preservation wouldnt he have flipped his vote?
I don't think it was quite obvious they had the votes. After the call from Tom, Mattson goes on red alert and we don't know who Gojo called. Shiv was supposed to lean on Sandy and Sandy and we never saw what transpired there either, but obviously not good enough since they voted, 'yes'.
I dont really think Frank was threatened by Kendall so he wanted to sell, knowing worst case, he still had a seat at the table if the Roys won.
When Greg found out about the plan to not name Shiv USA CEO, he brought that information to Kendall understanding it would blow up the deal, and Greg would have a place in Waystar/Royco leadership leaving Tom hung out to dry.
Greg didn't do it to hang Tom out to dry. He did it to help himself, but the results would be the same. Kendall made clear he had no use for Tom so the results of Greg "trading" the information to Kendall would have been the end of Tom (in any capacity with Waystar/Royco).
yes but tom presented a not-compelling case for the new world post-gojo to greg with the threat of the massive paycut. whether he was fucking with him or just trying to throw him off the scent, tom played the key role in panicking greg into thinking the sibs were his better play.
Quote:
he would survive the gojo sale and he would, he had aligned himself with Matsson. Greg knew this.
When Greg found out about the plan to not name Shiv USA CEO, he brought that information to Kendall understanding it would blow up the deal, and Greg would have a place in Waystar/Royco leadership leaving Tom hung out to dry.
Greg didn't do it to hang Tom out to dry. He did it to help himself, but the results would be the same. Kendall made clear he had no use for Tom so the results of Greg "trading" the information to Kendall would have been the end of Tom (in any capacity with Waystar/Royco).
yes but tom presented a not-compelling case for the new world post-gojo to greg with the threat of the massive paycut. whether he was fucking with him or just trying to throw him off the scent, tom played the key role in panicking greg into thinking the sibs were his better play.
Did Tom say Greg got paid 200k? Did I hear that scene right and he would probably get bumped down to 30-40k if Matsson kept him? lol.
Agree here, even w/o a seat at the table if Kendall, et al. won. Frank wanted his payday after all was said and done, quite enough of the Roys for one lifetime. He was pretty candid when asked at several junctures his opinion of Logan.
I dont really think Frank was threatened by Kendall so he wanted to sell, knowing worst case, he still had a seat at the table if the Roys won.
i think frank had a seat at the table if kendall won but only if he was on their team. that's why i think it's strange he voted the way he did because unlike karl he had never really expressed any desperation for the golden parachute. and then at the end both of them talked about possibly wanting to stay on which we know wont happen. frank's only chance to remain in the mix was voting for kendall so he self sabotaged, but i guess that's his sort of his MO back to when logan fired him the first time.
Quote:
In comment 16125121 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
he would survive the gojo sale and he would, he had aligned himself with Matsson. Greg knew this.
When Greg found out about the plan to not name Shiv USA CEO, he brought that information to Kendall understanding it would blow up the deal, and Greg would have a place in Waystar/Royco leadership leaving Tom hung out to dry.
Greg didn't do it to hang Tom out to dry. He did it to help himself, but the results would be the same. Kendall made clear he had no use for Tom so the results of Greg "trading" the information to Kendall would have been the end of Tom (in any capacity with Waystar/Royco).
yes but tom presented a not-compelling case for the new world post-gojo to greg with the threat of the massive paycut. whether he was fucking with him or just trying to throw him off the scent, tom played the key role in panicking greg into thinking the sibs were his better play.
Did Tom say Greg got paid 200k? Did I hear that scene right and he would probably get bumped down to 30-40k if Matsson kept him? lol.
i think you heard right, tom's greatest joy was fucking with greg and in that instance it almost cost him everything.
i think everyone gets focused so much on the 3 kids being unlikeable screw ups that they look past the scale of everyone else being unlikeable screw ups sometimes at an even grander scale.
The show presented him as a buffoon character, while at the same time showed that he knew how to protect himself. When they sent him on the scapegoat mission of destroying documents, which was early in the show, Greg adroitly protected himself by saving some of the documents. He's inexperienced, but he's not dumb.
Quote:
In comment 16124608 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
who deserved it. Such a strange qualifier given how you can argue most if not all of the cast doesn’t deserve it. And I’m sure Logan loves that Tom, a guy he treated like a peasant, is now the face of his company, lol.
Just don’t like the 11th hour mind change to have it end on a “Fuck You” moment. It usually means lazy writing and that’s exactly how it felt watching the last 20 minutes.
100% agree. You could make the argument that Tom deserved it because he was the most ruthless (next to Logan, of course). The kids had no chance, they were so damaged from growing up under Logan’s thumb that it would have been a miracle that any of them were remotely normal. Tom doesn’t have that excuse. He chose this lifestyle and was willing to sacrifice any dignity to get the ring, even as short-lived as that would be (the Swede would almost certainly can him the minute the Waystar sale is approved).
I also think Tom who is experienced AF also got himself a golden parachute ($100M+). As much of a sycophant that he is he is experienced and knows what comes with CEO perks. The motherlode of stocks and a buyout if he gets fired. I mean how long do CEOs last anyway?
Sure, but money isn’t the issue, power is. His wife has all the money in the world, now granted, it’s not HIS money, but I think the power, and the proximity to it, drove both of them.
Shiv has her husband as CEO, and more importantly, the real power player who wants to fuck her. Meanwhile, she’s gotten rid of her annoying brothers. Win, win.
Quote:
In comment 16125073 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 16124608 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
who deserved it. Such a strange qualifier given how you can argue most if not all of the cast doesn’t deserve it. And I’m sure Logan loves that Tom, a guy he treated like a peasant, is now the face of his company, lol.
Just don’t like the 11th hour mind change to have it end on a “Fuck You” moment. It usually means lazy writing and that’s exactly how it felt watching the last 20 minutes.
100% agree. You could make the argument that Tom deserved it because he was the most ruthless (next to Logan, of course). The kids had no chance, they were so damaged from growing up under Logan’s thumb that it would have been a miracle that any of them were remotely normal. Tom doesn’t have that excuse. He chose this lifestyle and was willing to sacrifice any dignity to get the ring, even as short-lived as that would be (the Swede would almost certainly can him the minute the Waystar sale is approved).
I also think Tom who is experienced AF also got himself a golden parachute ($100M+). As much of a sycophant that he is he is experienced and knows what comes with CEO perks. The motherlode of stocks and a buyout if he gets fired. I mean how long do CEOs last anyway?
Sure, but money isn’t the issue, power is. His wife has all the money in the world, now granted, it’s not HIS money, but I think the power, and the proximity to it, drove both of them.
Shiv has her husband as CEO, and more importantly, the real power player who wants to fuck her. Meanwhile, she’s gotten rid of her annoying brothers. Win, win.
Not saying he didn't crave that (power) but he wasn't in that weight class of wealth imo. Tom may have had tens of millions of dollars, but he was living the billionaire lifestyle due to Shiv. I think money was huge for Tom, more than power.
I still remember his conversation with Greg about being rich, "Its better than being a superhero, you can do whatever you want"
I think you’re misreading people’s motivations, in particular, Shiv. She says during the conference room scene, ”Really I love you, but I cannot fucking stomach you.” There was no speech or business plan that was going to sway her. She just didn’t want it to be him if it wasn’t going to be her.
As for your point about Logan, the one thing that separated him from his kids was that he was calculating about business. He was never going to let emotions get in the way of the numbers. His kids were utter failures at that. He also had a personality that engendered fear and loyalty. Matsson is somewhat similar in that way. During this entire show, the only person who stayed loyal to one of the kids was Stewy to Ken. Willa was loyal to Con up to a point and Gerri was loyal to Roman until he fired her in a fit of pique.
If you had told me 5 years ago: "You're going to be really caught up in a fictionalized story of billionaire nepo-babies where the *losers* walk away with billions," I would not have believed you.
Very well done show.