This wasn't a show about a family that rallies together. It was a show about family disunity. Roman couldn't fathom that he blew it, and recoiled into self pity. Shiv couldn't stand that she got played by Mattson, and rather than support her brother, sabotaged him to prove she still could impact things. They were a tear down family. That was their humor. That was their actions. Yeah, there was an element of not believing Kendall could do it, but it was more Shiv believing she could do it better, and denying him was better than letting him have it.
This wasn't a show about a family that rallies together. It was a show about family disunity. Roman couldn't fathom that he blew it, and recoiled into self pity. Shiv couldn't stand that she got played by Mattson, and rather than support her brother, sabotaged him to prove she still could impact things. They were a tear down family. That was their humor. That was their actions. Yeah, there was an element of not believing Kendall could do it, but it was more Shiv believing she could do it better, and denying him was better than letting him have it.
The kids constantly got their faces blown off when prematurely assuming victory, as Kendall did here.
I think Shiv did it for multiple reasons: 1. Couldn't bare seeing Kendall win. 2. Thought Kendall as CEO put significant risk to her billions. 3. Thought being wife to the CEO gave her a leg up on the siblings, as well as gave her child a shot at a not awful family.
The camera pivoting to Shiv's face in the meeting with the three siblings and Stewie were - in my view - certainly meant to show Shiv starting to change her mind. I thought the writers were showing Shiv realizing Kendall was never going to fill Logan's chair.
I don't think it was ever intended to be realistic, though.
I was right in that none of the three kids would get it. Wrong in thinking Mencken would be a part in it. Should have seen it coming. The show has repeatedly built something up, only to abandon it with a token throwaway line. They throw out a lot of dead end plot lines. Sloppy? Or trying too hard to be cunning by having a lot of chaff to keep the missile from honing in?
At the top of the unrealistic heap is Tom getting the nod as CEO. I was so wrong about them going in such a farcical direction. Ultimately, though, under the definition of farce genre, a thumbnail of this show is all that is needed.
it was a fitting end. I was hoping that it'd end on a happier note following the bonding they just had, but all 3 of them can't control their jealously. Roman and Shiv both hesitated when the day came because they both thought it should be them. Kendall seemed like the best choice of the 3 by far and I doubt the company is in better hand with a fraud like Matson and Tom. The "if I can't have it, no one can" result does seem to fit the characters though. I can't believe that weasel, Greg, ended up fine after betraying Tom. He should have gutted him right there.
This wasn't a show about a family that rallies together. It was a show about family disunity. Roman couldn't fathom that he blew it, and recoiled into self pity. Shiv couldn't stand that she got played by Mattson, and rather than support her brother, sabotaged him to prove she still could impact things. They were a tear down family. That was their humor. That was their actions. Yeah, there was an element of not believing Kendall could do it, but it was more Shiv believing she could do it better, and denying him was better than letting him have it.
Bingo. It was just pure pettiness, spite, and ego. She truly couldn’t stand for it to be one of her siblings and not her. Roman was nearly as bad because he spent the entire ep whining about how it should’ve/could’ve/would’ve been him, yet he didn’t even want the damn job at the end. He was quite happy to get the hell out of there. But at least he didn’t make up some nonsense in order to not vote for Ken. When Shiv brought up the guy’s death, that was a tell. She knew that information the entire time, yet presented it at the last moment as a reason Ken couldn’t be CEO. Nonsense. Plus, her actions the entire season were duplicitous. She could’ve been entirely above board with her support of Matsson. As for Ken, his actions in the ep were reprehensible, including trying to injure Roman twice. I was rooting for him, but he was always destined to be Charlie getting the ball yanked away as he got close.
As I said numerous times, the idiots probably could’ve done a good job if they subjugated their egos and worked together. But that was too much for them. Ken getting screwed and Tom becoming CEO was a rather obvious ending.
This wasn't a show about a family that rallies together. It was a show about family disunity. Roman couldn't fathom that he blew it, and recoiled into self pity. Shiv couldn't stand that she got played by Mattson, and rather than support her brother, sabotaged him to prove she still could impact things. They were a tear down family. That was their humor. That was their actions. Yeah, there was an element of not believing Kendall could do it, but it was more Shiv believing she could do it better, and denying him was better than letting him have it.
Bingo. It was just pure pettiness, spite, and ego. She truly couldn’t stand for it to be one of her siblings and not her. Roman was nearly as bad because he spent the entire ep whining about how it should’ve/could’ve/would’ve been him, yet he didn’t even want the damn job at the end. He was quite happy to get the hell out of there. But at least he didn’t make up some nonsense in order to not vote for Ken. When Shiv brought up the guy’s death, that was a tell. She knew that information the entire time, yet presented it at the last moment as a reason Ken couldn’t be CEO. Nonsense. Plus, her actions the entire season were duplicitous. She could’ve been entirely above board with her support of Matsson. As for Ken, his actions in the ep were reprehensible, including trying to injure Roman twice. I was rooting for him, but he was always destined to be Charlie getting the ball yanked away as he got close.
As I said numerous times, the idiots probably could’ve done a good job if they subjugated their egos and worked together. But that was too much for them. Ken getting screwed and Tom becoming CEO was a rather obvious ending.
that's how i see it. shiv took her ball and went home.
i appreciate the result of the ending with all 3 basically left with a void they need to fill. even though there's little hope they fill it well there was probably even less hope they'd fill it well continuing to fight for logan's approval from the grave.
the way they got there was pretty stupid though. shiv getting shiv'd by matsson was obvious from 10000 miles away but the way it played out was just stupid. for all intents and purposes he was inches from costing himself the deal over something he didnt need to do before the vote - so the entire flip flop flip back just felt stupid.
...and an interesting flip from two weeks ago with Shiv's argument with Tom. She accused him of marrying her to get close to power and money. Now she votes for the deal and stays with Tom for the same reason.
it was a fitting end. I was hoping that it'd end on a happier note following the bonding they just had, but all 3 of them can't control their jealously. Roman and Shiv both hesitated when the day came because they both thought it should be them. Kendall seemed like the best choice of the 3 by far and I doubt the company is in better hand with a fraud like Matson and Tom. The "if I can't have it, no one can" result does seem to fit the characters though. I can't believe that weasel, Greg, ended up fine after betraying Tom. He should have gutted him right there.
I think because he knew Greg was just like him. He knew he would of done that exact same thing.
Seemed like the aha moment for Shiv was when Kendall was sitting in Logan’s chair for the first time and he was promising Stewy the Chairman title as well as favours for others. She was reminded that Ken is not his father, not a serious businessperson with the chops to succeed and given his train wreck past was likely to send the company, it’s reputation and her net worth plunging
This is a really good point that I didn't catch when I was watching.
That Greg squealing would actually screw Tom? Mattson says to keep it quiet, Tom tells Greg, Greg tells Shiv and she goes nuts. Mattson isn't upset with Tom? Or i guess not enough to take away CEO from him?
That Greg squealing would actually screw Tom? Mattson says to keep it quiet, Tom tells Greg, Greg tells Shiv and she goes nuts. Mattson isn't upset with Tom? Or i guess not enough to take away CEO from him?
Why would he be upset with Tom? Greg used a translation app to translate Matsson and Oskar's conversation to learn the plan.
Once Greg told Tom what he learned, Tom called Matsson and said "big problem" or whatever he said to let Matsson know word was out and the Roy's would be scrambling to get votes now that they possibly lured Shiv back and the vote on the go-jo sale would be close.
Was Greg aware it was going to be Tom when he called Kendall? I don't think he was.
Maybe I'm mistaken.
They only found it was Tom when they were at the house and Shiv could read it on his face.
And Tom told her, when he said "Shiv, it's me"
Shiv SE that in motion- with her pushing ideas on Mattson, that article that made it seem like Mattson was her puppet and then her answer about Tom.to Mattson- he knew she couldn't be truly trusted and knew that Tom would be his perfect puppet.
the scene in the limo at the end I kind of wondered if Shiv pulled a con on all of them and orchestrated the whole thing.
Maybe left the conference room to milk the moment, cherish the power she always wanted and dramatically and ruthlessly put the nail in Kendall's coffin.
But I kind of think I'm giving her character (and the writers) too much credit. Her reaction to Tom telling her it was him definitely didn't seem like she was the puppet master unless that act was part of the ruse.
it would be a better "Shiv story", if that was the case and it was her doing. If in fact she felt like Tom as US CEO and Matsson (who wants to bang her) as global CEO put her in some better position than she would ever get from Kendall, but again, I don't know it's fair to say she manipulated Matsson into naming Tom CEO (she was lukewarm on it when Lukas point blank asked her) about it and I'm not sure what Tom as US CEO does for her. Other it's not Kendall. Maybe that's enough to give her some satisfaction.
if Shiv planned it we would have been shown that and if we were I wouldn’t have as big of an issue with it as I do. Generally I don’t like when vital decisions are made uncharacteristically, or against the shows rules, and out of thin air to create fake drama.
but maybe that’s the point. These kids couldn’t shoot straight and Tom, who had to always maneuver for his seat at the table, was just able to maneuver (with some luck) the only seat left against a bunch of incompetent dummies. Shiv got the worst sentence because the entire dynamic of her relationship with Tom basically flipped. In the end, she was so desperate to stay close to power she took his hand.
The entire show is the kids couldn't shoot straight
That's why Logan never retired and he sold to Mattson. The kids always talked a tough game behind the scenes, but every single time it was time for them to step-up or take the lead, they choked it away or acted irrationally.
To me there was always an underling of, "I'd rather watch the whole thing burn down than see one of my siblings take over" and that's pretty much what happened.
Their other downfall was power divided. Logan and Mattson had absolute power, the kids could never realize their power was divided by 3 and they needed to work toghether but their egos prevented that. You either have absolute power (Logan/Mattson) or complete shill (Greg/Tom) to 'win'. The Roy kids had that taste of power but in the end didn't or couldn't realize there would need to be a compromise to 'win'.
I do think their is an irony that Ken finally seemed to get it and step-up but all his previous missteps were too much baggage.
Scene - Ken had an opportunity to step up and passionately explain why the GoJo offer should be rejected. Logan would have eloquently logically and forcefully argued his case. Instead Ken wasted the opportunity by saying limply “you’ve all read the deck, let’s just skip to the vote”. He could have swayed Shiv and possibly others who were not entirely sold on GoJo with an epic presentation. I think people would have overlooked his temper and shady history if he was smart inspirational and competent. But he did not have his father’s charisma work ethic or smarts.The contrast between the video of Logan charming the dinner guests with his riff on the Presidents and Ken’s speech to kickoff the board meeting could not have been more stark. He thought because he’s the eldest boy he can take the throne without putting in the effort.
Forgave Greg other than Greg not knowing Tom would be CEO. Although I was dying laughing when Mattsen called Greg Judas.
I think because he felt like he could control him and it would give Tom some measure of power in a role he will realistically have none as a figurehead/puppet.
Putting the sticker on Greg's forehead was funny, kind of symbolic too, IMO, sort of a "this is the only remnant from Logan's world I am keeping" moment.
Forgave Greg other than Greg not knowing Tom would be CEO. Although I was dying laughing when Mattsen called Greg Judas.
I think Tom respected Greg for it. When he told Shiv after she found out he was going to be CEO, “if the roles were reversed, you’d do the same.”
Greg made the right move. He had no idea Tom was getting CEO, he just wanted to stay on. Tom hinted at a massive pay cut. So, Greg uses his information to his advantage.
I think Tom respected it.
RE: RE: I am still struggling to understand why Tom
Forgave Greg other than Greg not knowing Tom would be CEO. Although I was dying laughing when Mattsen called Greg Judas.
I think Tom respected Greg for it. When he told Shiv after she found out he was going to be CEO, “if the roles were reversed, you’d do the same.”
Greg made the right move. He had no idea Tom was getting CEO, he just wanted to stay on. Tom hinted at a massive pay cut. So, Greg uses his information to his advantage.
I think Tom respected it.
The move was similar to Tom’s move at end of season 3. I think Tom also trusts Greg and that was why he said “I just had enough capital” to save you. I think if you look at the show it is really the only relationship that truly survives. Greg is going to still be his lackey. But with that said, it was a bold move against Mattsen and Mattsen knows it—not sure how it could be forgiven so easily.
In stories (whether it be books, tv, movies) there really is little ambiguity when you go after the king. Either you kill the king or the king kills you. Greg went after Mattsen and is still around breathing which is just an unconventional outcome.
I often think, why do people make decisions, based on what. Thinking through the Roy sibs, although well educated they were always trapped by their father's shadow and subsequent jockeying and jealousy played out in that conf room. I think Shiv had a ton of stuff running through her head and had she had to vote first? Might have voted yes. But when the hammer stroke fell she voted as they are all wont to do, even Rome barely said yes.
Scene - Ken had an opportunity to step up and passionately explain why the GoJo offer should be rejected. Logan would have eloquently logically and forcefully argued his case. Instead Ken wasted the opportunity by saying limply “you’ve all read the deck, let’s just skip to the vote”. He could have swayed Shiv and possibly others who were not entirely sold on GoJo with an epic presentation. I think people would have overlooked his temper and shady history if he was smart inspirational and competent. But he did not have his father’s charisma work ethic or smarts.The contrast between the video of Logan charming the dinner guests with his riff on the Presidents and Ken’s speech to kickoff the board meeting could not have been more stark. He thought because he’s the eldest boy he can take the throne without putting in the effort.
This is a great point, that I really didn’t think about. I think he got overly confident because he knew he had the numbers to push through. This season has shown that Kendall can give a great speech and get people behind him, but his own ego got in the best of him as the most crucial time possible.
In comment 16124812 JOrthman said:They only found it was Tom when they were at the house and Shiv could read it on his face./////////
And Tom told her, when he said "Shiv, it's me"
Shiv wasn't reading it, yet, still stunned by Mattson's switch, she was groping--as she thought Tom was too: I saw those moments as taut and dramatic, when Tom seemed to be on the same page with Shiv in not knowing who Mattson was going to annoint--when he had known for the past xx hours--as the ultimate stab in the back and smug, controlled schadenfreud and vengeance for all the months of her smug keeping Tom at her family name fingertips: "I have it and you don't, and, yes, it's me." The tables turned once and for all from Tom as hanger on, dependent on Shiv for access, but now he rules the roost.
I got a huge kick out of the scene when Tom goes at Greg
Forgave Greg other than Greg not knowing Tom would be CEO. Although I was dying laughing when Mattsen called Greg Judas.
I think Tom respected Greg for it. When he told Shiv after she found out he was going to be CEO, “if the roles were reversed, you’d do the same.”
Greg made the right move. He had no idea Tom was getting CEO, he just wanted to stay on. Tom hinted at a massive pay cut. So, Greg uses his information to his advantage.
I think Tom respected it.
Exactly, he knew he would have done the same thing and kind of saw Greg as a version of him.
In comment 16124812 JOrthman said:They only found it was Tom when they were at the house and Shiv could read it on his face./////////
And Tom told her, when he said "Shiv, it's me"
Shiv wasn't reading it, yet, still stunned by Mattson's switch, she was groping--as she thought Tom was too: I saw those moments as taut and dramatic, when Tom seemed to be on the same page with Shiv in not knowing who Mattson was going to annoint--when he had known for the past xx hours--as the ultimate stab in the back and smug, controlled schadenfreud and vengeance for all the months of her smug keeping Tom at her family name fingertips: "I have it and you don't, and, yes, it's me." The tables turned once and for all from Tom as hanger on, dependent on Shiv for access, but now he rules the roost.
I disagree. I felt like she sensed it, based on the look on her face. His own demeanor in the scene gave it away and then he said it, which confirmed what she was thinking.
to me that "Tom would have done the same thing" which is a shitty thing and could have cost Tom his future, so he "respects" the backstabbery and deceit by Greg so he gives him a job?
lol. Ok.
The "you would have done the same thing" to Shiv makes sense and those two keeping a relationship also makes sense, since besides everything else in their history that is who they always were in their relationship (selfish, power hungry, etc.) and now they will share a child.
But IMO Tom keeps Greg for Tom (power) not because he would have done the same thing or because he "respects" it.
who deserved it. Such a strange qualifier given how you can argue most if not all of the cast doesn’t deserve it. And I’m sure Logan loves that Tom, a guy he treated like a peasant, is now the face of his company, lol.
Just don’t like the 11th hour mind change to have it end on a “Fuck You” moment. It usually means lazy writing and that’s exactly how it felt watching the last 20 minutes.
100% agree. You could make the argument that Tom deserved it because he was the most ruthless (next to Logan, of course). The kids had no chance, they were so damaged from growing up under Logan’s thumb that it would have been a miracle that any of them were remotely normal. Tom doesn’t have that excuse. He chose this lifestyle and was willing to sacrifice any dignity to get the ring, even as short-lived as that would be (the Swede would almost certainly can him the minute the Waystar sale is approved).
In comment 16124812 JOrthman said:They only found it was Tom when they were at the house and Shiv could read it on his face./////////
And Tom told her, when he said "Shiv, it's me"
Shiv wasn't reading it, yet, still stunned by Mattson's switch, she was groping--as she thought Tom was too: I saw those moments as taut and dramatic, when Tom seemed to be on the same page with Shiv in not knowing who Mattson was going to annoint--when he had known for the past xx hours--as the ultimate stab in the back and smug, controlled schadenfreud and vengeance for all the months of her smug keeping Tom at her family name fingertips: "I have it and you don't, and, yes, it's me." The tables turned once and for all from Tom as hanger on, dependent on Shiv for access, but now he rules the roost.
I disagree. I felt like she sensed it, based on the look on her face. His own demeanor in the scene gave it away and then he said it, which confirmed what she was thinking.
I felt like she sensed something was up. She could tell Tom had some powerful intel and she knew she had to draw it out.
who deserved it. Such a strange qualifier given how you can argue most if not all of the cast doesn’t deserve it. And I’m sure Logan loves that Tom, a guy he treated like a peasant, is now the face of his company, lol.
Just don’t like the 11th hour mind change to have it end on a “Fuck You” moment. It usually means lazy writing and that’s exactly how it felt watching the last 20 minutes.
100% agree. You could make the argument that Tom deserved it because he was the most ruthless (next to Logan, of course). The kids had no chance, they were so damaged from growing up under Logan’s thumb that it would have been a miracle that any of them were remotely normal. Tom doesn’t have that excuse. He chose this lifestyle and was willing to sacrifice any dignity to get the ring, even as short-lived as that would be (the Swede would almost certainly can him the minute the Waystar sale is approved).
I also think Tom who is experienced AF also got himself a golden parachute ($100M+). As much of a sycophant that he is he is experienced and knows what comes with CEO perks. The motherlode of stocks and a buyout if he gets fired. I mean how long do CEOs last anyway?
tom may be ceo but matsson could change his mind and shit can him any time. tom has fewer people of influence he can trust than before. greg is going to be his mini pain sponge and will probably be an asset for tom. his betrayal of matsson should have worked and sort of proved he has learned under tom's mentorship, he didnt know he was betraying tom at the time.
the big logic gap for me is still the actual board vote. i think some of the above points about kendall patting himself on the back too much are probably right. she and roman couldnt stomach giving him a W and were elated to give him the L. kendall played the best hand and did "deserve" it more than shiv who got herself screwed betting on the wrong horse, roman who went through an emotional breakdown all season, and matsson who was consistently sloppier and more erratic trying to close the deal. kendall was the alternative that got the majority of the board votes not counting his sibs because he actually did present an arguably better alternative. roman and shiv proved positive that they were bullshit with their own misplays and i think it's possible they were most afraid of kendall continuing to get positive recognition. the eulogies were basically a metaphor for the whole season, roman fucked it, kendall stepped up unexpectedly, shiv desperately tried to do the same but failed.
the way the vote played out still feels like a logic gap though because frank went first with everyone thinking kendall had the votes, why in that scenario would he vote for matsson? for self preservation wouldnt he have flipped his vote?
to me that "Tom would have done the same thing" which is a shitty thing and could have cost Tom his future, so he "respects" the backstabbery and deceit by Greg so he gives him a job?
lol. Ok.
The "you would have done the same thing" to Shiv makes sense and those two keeping a relationship also makes sense, since besides everything else in their history that is who they always were in their relationship (selfish, power hungry, etc.) and now they will share a child.
But IMO Tom keeps Greg for Tom (power) not because he would have done the same thing or because he "respects" it.
but, just my opinion.
He didn't know it was Tom at the time. Tom never told him, so he didn't know who he was backstabbing. He only knew he was trying to secure his future. All Tom told him was that he thought he'd be "Ok" with the GoJo winning.
he would survive the gojo sale and he would, he had aligned himself with Matsson. Greg knew this.
When Greg found out about the plan to not name Shiv USA CEO, he brought that information to Kendall understanding it would blow up the deal, and Greg would have a place in Waystar/Royco leadership leaving Tom hung out to dry.
Greg didn't do it to hang Tom out to dry. He did it to help himself, but the results would be the same. Kendall made clear he had no use for Tom so the results of Greg "trading" the information to Kendall would have been the end of Tom (in any capacity with Waystar/Royco).
This wasn't a show about a family that rallies together. It was a show about family disunity. Roman couldn't fathom that he blew it, and recoiled into self pity. Shiv couldn't stand that she got played by Mattson, and rather than support her brother, sabotaged him to prove she still could impact things. They were a tear down family. That was their humor. That was their actions. Yeah, there was an element of not believing Kendall could do it, but it was more Shiv believing she could do it better, and denying him was better than letting him have it.
This wasn't a show about a family that rallies together. It was a show about family disunity. Roman couldn't fathom that he blew it, and recoiled into self pity. Shiv couldn't stand that she got played by Mattson, and rather than support her brother, sabotaged him to prove she still could impact things. They were a tear down family. That was their humor. That was their actions. Yeah, there was an element of not believing Kendall could do it, but it was more Shiv believing she could do it better, and denying him was better than letting him have it.
Well said
I think Shiv did it for multiple reasons: 1. Couldn't bare seeing Kendall win. 2. Thought Kendall as CEO put significant risk to her billions. 3. Thought being wife to the CEO gave her a leg up on the siblings, as well as gave her child a shot at a not awful family.
The camera pivoting to Shiv's face in the meeting with the three siblings and Stewie were - in my view - certainly meant to show Shiv starting to change her mind. I thought the writers were showing Shiv realizing Kendall was never going to fill Logan's chair.
I was right in that none of the three kids would get it. Wrong in thinking Mencken would be a part in it. Should have seen it coming. The show has repeatedly built something up, only to abandon it with a token throwaway line. They throw out a lot of dead end plot lines. Sloppy? Or trying too hard to be cunning by having a lot of chaff to keep the missile from honing in?
At the top of the unrealistic heap is Tom getting the nod as CEO. I was so wrong about them going in such a farcical direction. Ultimately, though, under the definition of farce genre, a thumbnail of this show is all that is needed.
homing
This wasn't a show about a family that rallies together. It was a show about family disunity. Roman couldn't fathom that he blew it, and recoiled into self pity. Shiv couldn't stand that she got played by Mattson, and rather than support her brother, sabotaged him to prove she still could impact things. They were a tear down family. That was their humor. That was their actions. Yeah, there was an element of not believing Kendall could do it, but it was more Shiv believing she could do it better, and denying him was better than letting him have it.
Bingo. It was just pure pettiness, spite, and ego. She truly couldn’t stand for it to be one of her siblings and not her. Roman was nearly as bad because he spent the entire ep whining about how it should’ve/could’ve/would’ve been him, yet he didn’t even want the damn job at the end. He was quite happy to get the hell out of there. But at least he didn’t make up some nonsense in order to not vote for Ken. When Shiv brought up the guy’s death, that was a tell. She knew that information the entire time, yet presented it at the last moment as a reason Ken couldn’t be CEO. Nonsense. Plus, her actions the entire season were duplicitous. She could’ve been entirely above board with her support of Matsson. As for Ken, his actions in the ep were reprehensible, including trying to injure Roman twice. I was rooting for him, but he was always destined to be Charlie getting the ball yanked away as he got close.
As I said numerous times, the idiots probably could’ve done a good job if they subjugated their egos and worked together. But that was too much for them. Ken getting screwed and Tom becoming CEO was a rather obvious ending.
Quote:
Shiv being a sore loser.
This wasn't a show about a family that rallies together. It was a show about family disunity. Roman couldn't fathom that he blew it, and recoiled into self pity. Shiv couldn't stand that she got played by Mattson, and rather than support her brother, sabotaged him to prove she still could impact things. They were a tear down family. That was their humor. That was their actions. Yeah, there was an element of not believing Kendall could do it, but it was more Shiv believing she could do it better, and denying him was better than letting him have it.
Bingo. It was just pure pettiness, spite, and ego. She truly couldn’t stand for it to be one of her siblings and not her. Roman was nearly as bad because he spent the entire ep whining about how it should’ve/could’ve/would’ve been him, yet he didn’t even want the damn job at the end. He was quite happy to get the hell out of there. But at least he didn’t make up some nonsense in order to not vote for Ken. When Shiv brought up the guy’s death, that was a tell. She knew that information the entire time, yet presented it at the last moment as a reason Ken couldn’t be CEO. Nonsense. Plus, her actions the entire season were duplicitous. She could’ve been entirely above board with her support of Matsson. As for Ken, his actions in the ep were reprehensible, including trying to injure Roman twice. I was rooting for him, but he was always destined to be Charlie getting the ball yanked away as he got close.
As I said numerous times, the idiots probably could’ve done a good job if they subjugated their egos and worked together. But that was too much for them. Ken getting screwed and Tom becoming CEO was a rather obvious ending.
that's how i see it. shiv took her ball and went home.
i appreciate the result of the ending with all 3 basically left with a void they need to fill. even though there's little hope they fill it well there was probably even less hope they'd fill it well continuing to fight for logan's approval from the grave.
the way they got there was pretty stupid though. shiv getting shiv'd by matsson was obvious from 10000 miles away but the way it played out was just stupid. for all intents and purposes he was inches from costing himself the deal over something he didnt need to do before the vote - so the entire flip flop flip back just felt stupid.
I think because he knew Greg was just like him. He knew he would of done that exact same thing.
This is a really good point that I didn't catch when I was watching.
Why would he be upset with Tom? Greg used a translation app to translate Matsson and Oskar's conversation to learn the plan.
Once Greg told Tom what he learned, Tom called Matsson and said "big problem" or whatever he said to let Matsson know word was out and the Roy's would be scrambling to get votes now that they possibly lured Shiv back and the vote on the go-jo sale would be close.
Maybe I'm mistaken.
Maybe I'm mistaken.
Yeah, he just knew it wouldn't be Shiv
Maybe I'm mistaken.
They only found it was Tom when they were at the house and Shiv could read it on his face.
Quote:
Was Greg aware it was going to be Tom when he called Kendall? I don't think he was.
Maybe I'm mistaken.
They only found it was Tom when they were at the house and Shiv could read it on his face.
And Tom told her, when he said "Shiv, it's me"
Quote:
In comment 16124803 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
Was Greg aware it was going to be Tom when he called Kendall? I don't think he was.
Maybe I'm mistaken.
They only found it was Tom when they were at the house and Shiv could read it on his face.
And Tom told her, when he said "Shiv, it's me"
Shiv SE that in motion- with her pushing ideas on Mattson, that article that made it seem like Mattson was her puppet and then her answer about Tom.to Mattson- he knew she couldn't be truly trusted and knew that Tom would be his perfect puppet.
Maybe left the conference room to milk the moment, cherish the power she always wanted and dramatically and ruthlessly put the nail in Kendall's coffin.
But I kind of think I'm giving her character (and the writers) too much credit. Her reaction to Tom telling her it was him definitely didn't seem like she was the puppet master unless that act was part of the ruse.
it would be a better "Shiv story", if that was the case and it was her doing. If in fact she felt like Tom as US CEO and Matsson (who wants to bang her) as global CEO put her in some better position than she would ever get from Kendall, but again, I don't know it's fair to say she manipulated Matsson into naming Tom CEO (she was lukewarm on it when Lukas point blank asked her) about it and I'm not sure what Tom as US CEO does for her. Other it's not Kendall. Maybe that's enough to give her some satisfaction.
BTW- Kendall's breakdown moment of I am the Eldest Boy was borderline quite telling..
BTW- Kendall's breakdown moment of I am the Eldest Boy was borderline quite telling..
Sorry borderline psychotic and quite telling.
To me there was always an underling of, "I'd rather watch the whole thing burn down than see one of my siblings take over" and that's pretty much what happened.
Their other downfall was power divided. Logan and Mattson had absolute power, the kids could never realize their power was divided by 3 and they needed to work toghether but their egos prevented that. You either have absolute power (Logan/Mattson) or complete shill (Greg/Tom) to 'win'. The Roy kids had that taste of power but in the end didn't or couldn't realize there would need to be a compromise to 'win'.
I do think their is an irony that Ken finally seemed to get it and step-up but all his previous missteps were too much baggage.
I think because he felt like he could control him and it would give Tom some measure of power in a role he will realistically have none as a figurehead/puppet.
Putting the sticker on Greg's forehead was funny, kind of symbolic too, IMO, sort of a "this is the only remnant from Logan's world I am keeping" moment.
I think Tom respected Greg for it. When he told Shiv after she found out he was going to be CEO, “if the roles were reversed, you’d do the same.”
Greg made the right move. He had no idea Tom was getting CEO, he just wanted to stay on. Tom hinted at a massive pay cut. So, Greg uses his information to his advantage.
I think Tom respected it.
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Forgave Greg other than Greg not knowing Tom would be CEO. Although I was dying laughing when Mattsen called Greg Judas.
I think Tom respected Greg for it. When he told Shiv after she found out he was going to be CEO, “if the roles were reversed, you’d do the same.”
Greg made the right move. He had no idea Tom was getting CEO, he just wanted to stay on. Tom hinted at a massive pay cut. So, Greg uses his information to his advantage.
I think Tom respected it.
The move was similar to Tom’s move at end of season 3. I think Tom also trusts Greg and that was why he said “I just had enough capital” to save you. I think if you look at the show it is really the only relationship that truly survives. Greg is going to still be his lackey. But with that said, it was a bold move against Mattsen and Mattsen knows it—not sure how it could be forgiven so easily.
He didn't "forgive" as much as he made him his stooge.
This is a great point, that I really didn’t think about. I think he got overly confident because he knew he had the numbers to push through. This season has shown that Kendall can give a great speech and get people behind him, but his own ego got in the best of him as the most crucial time possible.
And Tom told her, when he said "Shiv, it's me"
Shiv wasn't reading it, yet, still stunned by Mattson's switch, she was groping--as she thought Tom was too: I saw those moments as taut and dramatic, when Tom seemed to be on the same page with Shiv in not knowing who Mattson was going to annoint--when he had known for the past xx hours--as the ultimate stab in the back and smug, controlled schadenfreud and vengeance for all the months of her smug keeping Tom at her family name fingertips: "I have it and you don't, and, yes, it's me." The tables turned once and for all from Tom as hanger on, dependent on Shiv for access, but now he rules the roost.
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Forgave Greg other than Greg not knowing Tom would be CEO. Although I was dying laughing when Mattsen called Greg Judas.
I think Tom respected Greg for it. When he told Shiv after she found out he was going to be CEO, “if the roles were reversed, you’d do the same.”
Greg made the right move. He had no idea Tom was getting CEO, he just wanted to stay on. Tom hinted at a massive pay cut. So, Greg uses his information to his advantage.
I think Tom respected it.
Exactly, he knew he would have done the same thing and kind of saw Greg as a version of him.
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In comment 16124812 JOrthman said:They only found it was Tom when they were at the house and Shiv could read it on his face./////////
And Tom told her, when he said "Shiv, it's me"
Shiv wasn't reading it, yet, still stunned by Mattson's switch, she was groping--as she thought Tom was too: I saw those moments as taut and dramatic, when Tom seemed to be on the same page with Shiv in not knowing who Mattson was going to annoint--when he had known for the past xx hours--as the ultimate stab in the back and smug, controlled schadenfreud and vengeance for all the months of her smug keeping Tom at her family name fingertips: "I have it and you don't, and, yes, it's me." The tables turned once and for all from Tom as hanger on, dependent on Shiv for access, but now he rules the roost.
I disagree. I felt like she sensed it, based on the look on her face. His own demeanor in the scene gave it away and then he said it, which confirmed what she was thinking.
lol. Ok.
The "you would have done the same thing" to Shiv makes sense and those two keeping a relationship also makes sense, since besides everything else in their history that is who they always were in their relationship (selfish, power hungry, etc.) and now they will share a child.
But IMO Tom keeps Greg for Tom (power) not because he would have done the same thing or because he "respects" it.
but, just my opinion.
Just don’t like the 11th hour mind change to have it end on a “Fuck You” moment. It usually means lazy writing and that’s exactly how it felt watching the last 20 minutes.
100% agree. You could make the argument that Tom deserved it because he was the most ruthless (next to Logan, of course). The kids had no chance, they were so damaged from growing up under Logan’s thumb that it would have been a miracle that any of them were remotely normal. Tom doesn’t have that excuse. He chose this lifestyle and was willing to sacrifice any dignity to get the ring, even as short-lived as that would be (the Swede would almost certainly can him the minute the Waystar sale is approved).
The finale began with just about the most vulnerable we've ever seen Shiv, person to person, asking Tom if he wanted a real relationship.
My read is her pregnancy was the nail in the coffin for her decision. Anointing Tom was "convenient".
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In comment 16124815 pjcas18 said:
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In comment 16124812 JOrthman said:They only found it was Tom when they were at the house and Shiv could read it on his face./////////
And Tom told her, when he said "Shiv, it's me"
Shiv wasn't reading it, yet, still stunned by Mattson's switch, she was groping--as she thought Tom was too: I saw those moments as taut and dramatic, when Tom seemed to be on the same page with Shiv in not knowing who Mattson was going to annoint--when he had known for the past xx hours--as the ultimate stab in the back and smug, controlled schadenfreud and vengeance for all the months of her smug keeping Tom at her family name fingertips: "I have it and you don't, and, yes, it's me." The tables turned once and for all from Tom as hanger on, dependent on Shiv for access, but now he rules the roost.
I disagree. I felt like she sensed it, based on the look on her face. His own demeanor in the scene gave it away and then he said it, which confirmed what she was thinking.
I felt like she sensed something was up. She could tell Tom had some powerful intel and she knew she had to draw it out.
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who deserved it. Such a strange qualifier given how you can argue most if not all of the cast doesn’t deserve it. And I’m sure Logan loves that Tom, a guy he treated like a peasant, is now the face of his company, lol.
Just don’t like the 11th hour mind change to have it end on a “Fuck You” moment. It usually means lazy writing and that’s exactly how it felt watching the last 20 minutes.
100% agree. You could make the argument that Tom deserved it because he was the most ruthless (next to Logan, of course). The kids had no chance, they were so damaged from growing up under Logan’s thumb that it would have been a miracle that any of them were remotely normal. Tom doesn’t have that excuse. He chose this lifestyle and was willing to sacrifice any dignity to get the ring, even as short-lived as that would be (the Swede would almost certainly can him the minute the Waystar sale is approved).
I also think Tom who is experienced AF also got himself a golden parachute ($100M+). As much of a sycophant that he is he is experienced and knows what comes with CEO perks. The motherlode of stocks and a buyout if he gets fired. I mean how long do CEOs last anyway?
the big logic gap for me is still the actual board vote. i think some of the above points about kendall patting himself on the back too much are probably right. she and roman couldnt stomach giving him a W and were elated to give him the L. kendall played the best hand and did "deserve" it more than shiv who got herself screwed betting on the wrong horse, roman who went through an emotional breakdown all season, and matsson who was consistently sloppier and more erratic trying to close the deal. kendall was the alternative that got the majority of the board votes not counting his sibs because he actually did present an arguably better alternative. roman and shiv proved positive that they were bullshit with their own misplays and i think it's possible they were most afraid of kendall continuing to get positive recognition. the eulogies were basically a metaphor for the whole season, roman fucked it, kendall stepped up unexpectedly, shiv desperately tried to do the same but failed.
the way the vote played out still feels like a logic gap though because frank went first with everyone thinking kendall had the votes, why in that scenario would he vote for matsson? for self preservation wouldnt he have flipped his vote?
lol. Ok.
The "you would have done the same thing" to Shiv makes sense and those two keeping a relationship also makes sense, since besides everything else in their history that is who they always were in their relationship (selfish, power hungry, etc.) and now they will share a child.
But IMO Tom keeps Greg for Tom (power) not because he would have done the same thing or because he "respects" it.
but, just my opinion.
He didn't know it was Tom at the time. Tom never told him, so he didn't know who he was backstabbing. He only knew he was trying to secure his future. All Tom told him was that he thought he'd be "Ok" with the GoJo winning.
When Greg found out about the plan to not name Shiv USA CEO, he brought that information to Kendall understanding it would blow up the deal, and Greg would have a place in Waystar/Royco leadership leaving Tom hung out to dry.
Greg didn't do it to hang Tom out to dry. He did it to help himself, but the results would be the same. Kendall made clear he had no use for Tom so the results of Greg "trading" the information to Kendall would have been the end of Tom (in any capacity with Waystar/Royco).