Since I know nothing about him save for what I’ve read, I’m wondering why many refer to him as “not a true number 1?”
Please don’t parrot the “route tree” stuff unless you’ve actually watched him play beyond some YouTube highlights and are actually familiar with what he was or wasn’t asked to do in college.
We have a terrific coaching staff who seem to be noted for getting players to realize their full and true potential.
So aside from “anything’s possible,” does he have the requisite skillset to be a number 1 receiver IYO?
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/conferences/sec/leaders/rec-yds-player-season.html - ( New Window )
exactly this if he stays fast, healthy, and keeps catching the ball.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/conferences/sec/leaders/rec-yds-player-season.html - ( New Window )
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that Hyatt probably isn’t best perceived as arguably the #1 WR in college football. But moreso as a prospect with some nice potential that was clearly worth drafting early in Rd 3 but still was the 10th overall WR taken as spoken by basically the entirety of GMs around the league.
i see the point you are trying to make here but it's just incorrect. there are a lot of college players who compile statistics and awards but dont project well to the pros because of a lack of athleticism and ron dayne's 4 years as one of the most decorated rbs in cfb history was a poster child for them.
hyatt is an explosive track athlete 1 year wonder early declaration, which is basically the exact opposite type of profile.
dayne was literally and figuratively on the opposite end of the scale. this is a comparison so stupid i cant believe it's taken this many replies to use the word the stupid.
Once again, the Dayne comment was made to simply reference his college-level award which I had hoped was the only reason you proclaimed Hyatt was the #1 WR in all of college football last season. Now that it is clear you truly believe this 3rd round pick and 10th WR drafted was, I understand your need to put this many replies on this thread to convince others.
If he put up another explosive 1K/10 season in the SEC, I think that puts hims squarely in the first round conversation for 2024. That would be hard to ignore, and would swing the risk/reward pendulum in his favor.
But I don't think any team this year calculated the only reason not to take him on round one is because he only had one big year.
Not when he had roughly the same number of snaps on film as the first WR drafted in 2022 Drake) and 600 more than the first WR taken in 2023 (Njiba-Smith, 867). Those guys got drafted on the backs of one big season, arguably less/equally impressive than Hyatt's.
I'm going with virtually all the draft pundits and anonymous scout evaluations on this one.
You can't ignore his explosiveness and hands, but you also can't ignore he wasn't asked to do a lot NFL table stakes stuff in his college system.
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In comment 16125272 nygiantfan said:
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that Hyatt probably isn’t best perceived as arguably the #1 WR in college football. But moreso as a prospect with some nice potential that was clearly worth drafting early in Rd 3 but still was the 10th overall WR taken as spoken by basically the entirety of GMs around the league.
i see the point you are trying to make here but it's just incorrect. there are a lot of college players who compile statistics and awards but dont project well to the pros because of a lack of athleticism and ron dayne's 4 years as one of the most decorated rbs in cfb history was a poster child for them.
hyatt is an explosive track athlete 1 year wonder early declaration, which is basically the exact opposite type of profile.
dayne was literally and figuratively on the opposite end of the scale. this is a comparison so stupid i cant believe it's taken this many replies to use the word the stupid.
Once again, the Dayne comment was made to simply reference his college-level award which I had hoped was the only reason you proclaimed Hyatt was the #1 WR in all of college football last season. Now that it is clear you truly believe this 3rd round pick and 10th WR drafted was, I understand your need to put this many replies on this thread to convince others.
you dont seem to understand how thoroughly i comprehend your argument from the beginning has been "you know who else once won a post season award while having literally nothing else in common"?
i cant believe i entered a jalin hyatt thread with a jalin hyatt opinion without considering ron dayne first.
just curious but on the field who do you think the best wr in cfb was last year? of course jsn was #1 for the 1 game he played since the nfl drafted him first, but beyond that?
If he put up another explosive 1K/10 season in the SEC, I think that puts hims squarely in the first round conversation for 2024. That would be hard to ignore, and would swing the risk/reward pendulum in his favor.
But I don't think any team this year calculated the only reason not to take him on round one is because he only had one big year.
Not when he had roughly the same number of snaps on film as the first WR drafted in 2022 Drake) and 600 more than the first WR taken in 2023 (Njiba-Smith, 867). Those guys got drafted on the backs of one big season, arguably less/equally impressive than Hyatt's.
I'm going with virtually all the draft pundits and anonymous scout evaluations on this one.
You can't ignore his explosiveness and hands, but you also can't ignore he wasn't asked to do a lot NFL table stakes stuff in his college system.
again it's never just 1 reason. you like to contort exaggerated straw men and this is one of them. there are significant holes in his game but in the context of this draft there were significant holes in every WR's game. that's why the nfl passed on all of them inside the top 20.
from #20-80 the nfl took 11. the order they came off the board was always going to depend on specific schemes and how the teams liked the players fit personality wise which is hard for any of us to judge, in terms of on the field though the talent gap was pretty flat. we know the giants visited with about half of that group and had hyatt standing out on their board with comfort to select him at pick #57 which is right in the middle of that group and not far off where his consensus rank was pre-draft, so clearly he passed their fit questions. we know at least 1 other team's board agreed with that assessment. the pick # he slid to is meaningless to the giants except for their good fortune because the options left at #89 were a clear tier down had they not been able to move up.
ok how about draft-eligible?
I'm very glad we got him in the 3rd, but I've got much higher expectations for him than I had for someone like Mario Manningham (late 3rd rd) or Rueben Randle (late 2nd).
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Would he have been a 2024 1st rounder? and why wasn't he a 2023 1st rounder? are slightly different, nuanced questions.
If he put up another explosive 1K/10 season in the SEC, I think that puts hims squarely in the first round conversation for 2024. That would be hard to ignore, and would swing the risk/reward pendulum in his favor.
But I don't think any team this year calculated the only reason not to take him on round one is because he only had one big year.
Not when he had roughly the same number of snaps on film as the first WR drafted in 2022 Drake) and 600 more than the first WR taken in 2023 (Njiba-Smith, 867). Those guys got drafted on the backs of one big season, arguably less/equally impressive than Hyatt's.
I'm going with virtually all the draft pundits and anonymous scout evaluations on this one.
You can't ignore his explosiveness and hands, but you also can't ignore he wasn't asked to do a lot NFL table stakes stuff in his college system.
again it's never just 1 reason. you like to contort exaggerated straw men and this is one of them. there are significant holes in his game but in the context of this draft there were significant holes in every WR's game. that's why the nfl passed on all of them inside the top 20.
There's no need to be insulting Eric, you have a bad habit of that and it makes debating otherwise interesting topics less enjoyable.
I agree with a large amount of what you've expressed.
I agree if he returned to school and had another good year his chances of being a first round choice would have increased.
I agree he was a great and surprising value on the third round.
I agree he's an exciting prospect despite some of the unanswered questions in his game.
I simply feel the biggest reason he was the 73rd most desirable player, and 10th most desirable WR -- was his lack of demonstrable table stakes qualities.
You're right, the league concluded all the WRs had significant questions. The league also concluded Hyatt had considerably more.
And I feel the system he played in produced that doubt.
This isn't an exotic observation. If that's a contortion or strawman to you, we can agree to disagree.
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In comment 16125582 christian said:
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Would he have been a 2024 1st rounder? and why wasn't he a 2023 1st rounder? are slightly different, nuanced questions.
If he put up another explosive 1K/10 season in the SEC, I think that puts hims squarely in the first round conversation for 2024. That would be hard to ignore, and would swing the risk/reward pendulum in his favor.
But I don't think any team this year calculated the only reason not to take him on round one is because he only had one big year.
Not when he had roughly the same number of snaps on film as the first WR drafted in 2022 Drake) and 600 more than the first WR taken in 2023 (Njiba-Smith, 867). Those guys got drafted on the backs of one big season, arguably less/equally impressive than Hyatt's.
I'm going with virtually all the draft pundits and anonymous scout evaluations on this one.
You can't ignore his explosiveness and hands, but you also can't ignore he wasn't asked to do a lot NFL table stakes stuff in his college system.
again it's never just 1 reason. you like to contort exaggerated straw men and this is one of them. there are significant holes in his game but in the context of this draft there were significant holes in every WR's game. that's why the nfl passed on all of them inside the top 20.
There's no need to be insulting Eric, you have a bad habit of that and it makes debating otherwise interesting topics less enjoyable.
I agree with a large amount of what you've expressed.
I agree if he returned to school and had another good year his chances of being a first round choice would have increased.
I agree he was a great and surprising value on the third round.
I agree he's an exciting prospect despite some of the unanswered questions in his game.
I simply feel the biggest reason he was the 73rd most desirable player, and 10th most desirable WR -- was his lack of demonstrable table stakes qualities.
You're right, the league concluded all the WRs had significant questions. The league also concluded Hyatt had considerably more.
And I feel the system he played in produced that doubt.
This isn't an exotic observation. If that's a contortion or strawman to you, we can agree to disagree.
the bold from the first post is the exaggeration that doesn't square with your more recent reply (the majority of which i agree with, exceptions being insulting and the phrase "considerably more" because we dont how close anyone's decisions were). the only argument in this thread worthy of insult was the ron dayne comp and i think my comments reflected that.
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ok how about draft-eligible?
Let's just go with Jalin Hyatt at this point so you aren't lonely when you die on this hill.
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In comment 16125582 christian said:
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Would he have been a 2024 1st rounder? and why wasn't he a 2023 1st rounder? are slightly different, nuanced questions.
If he put up another explosive 1K/10 season in the SEC, I think that puts hims squarely in the first round conversation for 2024. That would be hard to ignore, and would swing the risk/reward pendulum in his favor.
But I don't think any team this year calculated the only reason not to take him on round one is because he only had one big year.
Not when he had roughly the same number of snaps on film as the first WR drafted in 2022 Drake) and 600 more than the first WR taken in 2023 (Njiba-Smith, 867). Those guys got drafted on the backs of one big season, arguably less/equally impressive than Hyatt's.
I'm going with virtually all the draft pundits and anonymous scout evaluations on this one.
You can't ignore his explosiveness and hands, but you also can't ignore he wasn't asked to do a lot NFL table stakes stuff in his college system.
again it's never just 1 reason. you like to contort exaggerated straw men and this is one of them. there are significant holes in his game but in the context of this draft there were significant holes in every WR's game. that's why the nfl passed on all of them inside the top 20.
There's no need to be insulting Eric, you have a bad habit of that and it makes debating otherwise interesting topics less enjoyable.
I agree with a large amount of what you've expressed.
I agree if he returned to school and had another good year his chances of being a first round choice would have increased.
I agree he was a great and surprising value on the third round.
I agree he's an exciting prospect despite some of the unanswered questions in his game.
I simply feel the biggest reason he was the 73rd most desirable player, and 10th most desirable WR -- was his lack of demonstrable table stakes qualities.
You're right, the league concluded all the WRs had significant questions. The league also concluded Hyatt had considerably more.
And I feel the system he played in produced that doubt.
This isn't an exotic observation. If that's a contortion or strawman to you, we can agree to disagree.
You're right, the league concluded all the WRs had significant questions. The league also concluded Hyatt had considerably more.
CONSIDERABLY MORE?
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In comment 16125623 nygiantfan said:
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ok how about draft-eligible?
Let's just go with Jalin Hyatt at this point so you aren't lonely when you die on this hill.
this may be a shock to you but i am not 1 of the 630 Biletnikoff voters.
CONSIDERABLY MORE?
Of course. Nine teams who were in the market for a WR concluded a different WR was the right answer. Four teams who prioritized WR in round one concluded a different WR was the right answer.
The league went around the room 2+ plus times, and nearly a quarter of the teams picked someone else to do what he does.
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In comment 16125645 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16125623 nygiantfan said:
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ok how about draft-eligible?
Let's just go with Jalin Hyatt at this point so you aren't lonely when you die on this hill.
this may be a shock to you but i am not 1 of the 630 Biletnikoff voters.
Apparently neither are the 32 GMs of the National Football League
We're not talking about a guy who slipped to the 2nd and was the 5th WR taken. We're talking about a guy who slipped to the 3rd and was 10th WR taken.
Maybe selection slot isn't a proxy for confidence in success. I believe in the democracy of outcomes, so I strongly believe it.
The league valued 50+ players between the first batch of WRs taken on round one, and where Hyatt was taken. Including another 5 WRs.
Thats seems crystal clear to me the league had considerably more questions with Hyatt than it did with the first group taken on round one.
Hyatt doesn't have less speed than those taken before him. He doesn't have worse hands than those taken before him. In many of the comparisons, Hyatt doesn't have worse size than those taken before him. He doesn't have lesser stats from this past season than those taken before him.
And yet, as Christian noted, Hyatt was taken behind nine other players at his position. It wasn't for lack of first-round prospects, either - there were four taken in the opening stanza. And while that's fewer than 2022 and 2021 (both had six), it's more than 2020 and 2019 (both had two).
So NFL GMs weren't taking fewer WRs - the appetite for the position didn't decline versus years prior. But they did let Hyatt slip past them for 72 selections. Something had to be the reason for that. What is the reason? Whatever questions they had about his game translating to the NFL (or the learning curve that it would take for that translation to occur), presumably. But if NFL GMs were taking smaller, slower, less statistically-prolific WRs before Hyatt, wouldn't that suggest considerably more questions about Hyatt himself?
I'm thrilled that the Giants got him, and I really don't concern myself with other teams' draft boards but for the fact that the interplay between their boards and Schoen's have an impact on who JS can choose with each pick. But I think it's silly to suggest that there weren't considerably more questions about Hyatt coming from somewhere; otherwise, wouldn't he have been chosen sooner than some of the other players at his own position?
It's almost like some here will be SHOCKED if Hyatt turns out to be as good or better than some of the 9 WRs picked before him. That NEVER happens!
(and if JMS, a pretty desperately needed C, wasn't available at #57, there would've only been 7 WRs taken before Hyatt, because we know for a fact the Giants would've taken him there)
He was one my favorite players in the draft, and I personally believe he will have a very similar season to rookie Darius Slayton numbers.
Is that what's happening in this discussion? Or are you sensationalizing the conversation right now so that you can prop up a strawman later on?
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In comment 16125728 nygiantfan said:
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In comment 16125645 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16125623 nygiantfan said:
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ok how about draft-eligible?
Let's just go with Jalin Hyatt at this point so you aren't lonely when you die on this hill.
this may be a shock to you but i am not 1 of the 630 Biletnikoff voters.
Apparently neither are the 32 GMs of the National Football League
24/32 didn't take any wide receiver ahead of hyatt. maybe they just had other needs like vegas? 2 gms didn't even have any picks in the top 72.
of the 8 gms who took wide receivers ahead of hyatt, 4 had already filled their wr need before pick #24. addison has his own biletnikoff and jsn's 2021 was more productive than anyone in either of the last 2 drafts, including his teammate who went top 10 and won roy last year. nobody that i've seen has argued that there weren't good reasons for those choices.
you are placing an awful lot of meaning on the decisions of the 4 gms who chose different wrs than hyatt in round 2. especially given that unlike most situations where we don't know what's coachspeak and what isnt we have video of the giants with hyatt as the potential selection at #57 which would have been ahead of at least 2 of the guys who got picked ahead of him. but hey, much better than your ron dayne argument so progress.
He was one my favorite players in the draft, and I personally believe he will have a very similar season to rookie Darius Slayton numbers.
from 2009-2019 almost half of the 1st overall selections ended up not getting or not playing their second contracts with the teams that drafted them. so this whole discussion is against the backdrop that liking any draft pick is generally low probability, including when the gms have their choice of literally anyone in the entire draft.
all of these players have weaknesses that will need to be overcome, all of them are projections, and every single gm in the history of the nfl draft has gotten more picks wrong than right.
i think there's a lot of over-weighting minor inflections in selection # in this discussion, the exact same over-weighting that could have been done with:
2019 WR9/10/11 dk metcalf, diontae johnson, terry mclaurin,
2020 WR5/7/8 justin jefferson, tee higgins, michael pittman
2021 WR17 amon-ra st brown
2022 WR7/WR11 christian watson, george pickens
this specific mistake is one that literally happens every year and the question this thread asked was whether or not hyatt can be that mistake this year.
i think the answer can be an obvious yes and our collective excitement justified without all the probabilistic cold water. dont let ron dayne stop you from buying a hyatt jersey.
I think worries about press coverage and his weight are overrated. I do think he needs to keep hitting the weights to add strength in his lower half..their were yac opportunities in his videos where if he had kept his balance just broke an arm tackle there’s chance for huge gains. I think he will though. If you read enough on him, there’s a few articles where they mention that early on in his career he was reluctant to put on weight because he was worried it would impact his speed. For those complaining about his weight/frame realize he was playing his freshman year under 160lbs. I think it’s only in the last year or maybe slightly more that he bought in and really focused on the weight room and obviously it didn’t impact his speed in a negative manner..quite the opposite(the tape doesn’t lie..it’s legitimate elite downfield speed).
And Jackson wasn't drafted until mid round 2...
I still say it's more how dedicated these kids are to their craft that makes the difference at this level. A guy drafted in rounds 1-2-3 is obviously talented enough. He's got the specs. Question is does he have the mental specs and is he bat shit crazy enough to last in the NFL.
Hyatt has all the talent in the world. All these kids do. Many fail simply because they aren't as mentally dedicated as others are and once the lights turn on they get exposed.
Hyatt can run any route needed. Question is will he know which route to run, when to run it and be crazy enough to catch the ball, get up and do it again and again and again.
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It's almost like some here will be SHOCKED if Hyatt turns out to be as good or better than some of the 9 WRs picked before him. That NEVER happens!
Is that what's happening in this discussion? Or are you sensationalizing the conversation right now so that you can prop up a strawman later on?
yes, exactly. I AM sensationalizing the conversation right now so that I can prop up a strawman later on!
You got me! (if only I could remember where I propped up my strawman). Drat!
Ha ha. Actually I don't even know WTF that means.
It just seems like some posters aren't high on Hyatt partly because he was the 10th WR taken; he was taken in the 3rd round, etc. because route tree blah blah and his Biletnikoff award might be akin to Dayne's Heisman and therefore he's unlikely to become a #1 WR... Maybe I'm just seeing things.
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In comment 16125740 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16125728 nygiantfan said:
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In comment 16125645 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16125623 nygiantfan said:
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ok how about draft-eligible?
Let's just go with Jalin Hyatt at this point so you aren't lonely when you die on this hill.
this may be a shock to you but i am not 1 of the 630 Biletnikoff voters.
Apparently neither are the 32 GMs of the National Football League
24/32 didn't take any wide receiver ahead of hyatt. maybe they just had other needs like vegas? 2 gms didn't even have any picks in the top 72.
of the 8 gms who took wide receivers ahead of hyatt, 4 had already filled their wr need before pick #24. addison has his own biletnikoff and jsn's 2021 was more productive than anyone in either of the last 2 drafts, including his teammate who went top 10 and won roy last year. nobody that i've seen has argued that there weren't good reasons for those choices.
you are placing an awful lot of meaning on the decisions of the 4 gms who chose different wrs than hyatt in round 2. especially given that unlike most situations where we don't know what's coachspeak and what isnt we have video of the giants with hyatt as the potential selection at #57 which would have been ahead of at least 2 of the guys who got picked ahead of him. but hey, much better than your ron dayne argument so progress.
Not really. I am placing an awful lot of meaning on the decisions of every GM who decided against drafting "the #1 receiver in all CFB last year"(your words) basically all the way thru to pick #72 for other choices.
Being the #1 WR, Hyatt most certainly should have gone ahead of the 4 WRs selected in Round 1. And maybe even sooner than 20th pick (where Seattle chose Jaxon Smith-Njigba) since the real #1 WR should have had a higher draft grade and maybe could have trumped some of the other positional players drafted in the 11th-19th spots.
But to imagine the #1 WR in all of CFB was just sitting there for the taking while Round 1 was completed, Round 2 was completed and 9 more picks went off the board in Round 3 before our GM Joe Schoen decided to take action? So all those other teams either improperly rated 9 other WRs over Hyatt, had their WR needs already filled or simply wouldn't even consider seizing the opportunity to grab the #1 WR in all of CFB as an upgrade to an existing WR on their roster versus another positional player they took instead? Maybe it's a function that the 10th CB taken, 7th DE taken, 7th DT/NT taken, 6th TE taken and 4th Guard taken all simply had higher draft grades than the #1 WR in all of CFB?
That's a hell of a Draft.
And Ron Dayne won the award that literally goes to the most outstanding player in college football. Remember?
And no one needs to imagine how fun your current handle is if this thread is any example.
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In comment 16125829 Dr. D said:
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It's almost like some here will be SHOCKED if Hyatt turns out to be as good or better than some of the 9 WRs picked before him. That NEVER happens!
Is that what's happening in this discussion? Or are you sensationalizing the conversation right now so that you can prop up a strawman later on?
yes, exactly. I AM sensationalizing the conversation right now so that I can prop up a strawman later on!
You got me! (if only I could remember where I propped up my strawman). Drat!
Ha ha. Actually I don't even know WTF that means.
It just seems like some posters aren't high on Hyatt partly because he was the 10th WR taken; he was taken in the 3rd round, etc. because route tree blah blah and his Biletnikoff award might be akin to Dayne's Heisman and therefore he's unlikely to become a #1 WR... Maybe I'm just seeing things.
I think you're taking analogies literally and then you yourself are the only one drawing the inference that anyone here "will be SHOCKED if Hyatt turns out to be as good or better than some of the 9 WRs picked before him."
Saying that college awards are a poor predictor of NFL success is a valid point, IMO. Using Dayne as an example of that is relevant, since he was also drafted by the Giants. But the example could have been Andre Ware or Danny Wuerffel instead and the point itself would be no less valid.
Saying that the 10th WR taken implicitly has more unanswered questions about him than the 1st WR taken (or any of those in between #1 and #10, for that matter) doesn't seem like a particularly controversial take - after all, if Hyatt didn't have those questions about him, why would he have been the 10th WR taken, especially with the Biletnikoff Award on his resume?
Pointing out the general hit/miss rate for the 3rd round doesn't strike me as unfair since Hyatt was, in fact, chosen in the 3rd round and will contribute to that exact hit/miss rate going forward however he turns out.
So when you take those things and turn them into this:
Yes, I'd say that you are indeed seeing things, if your intent was not to sensationalize the tone and content of the thread.
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i can only imagine how fun your old handle must have been.
And Ron Dayne won the award that literally goes to the most outstanding player in college football. Remember?
And no one needs to imagine how fun your current handle is if this thread is any example.
ron dayne ran for 2k yards and 20 tds his senior year and that wasnt even his best year at wisconsin. he was an outstanding college football player regardless of being too fat and slow to be a good nfl player.
maybe you should give yourself a sabbatical on draft threads until your ron dayne trauma passes?
Saying that college awards are a poor predictor of NFL success is a valid point, IMO. Using Dayne as an example of that is relevant, since he was also drafted by the Giants. But the example could have been Andre Ware or Danny Wuerffel instead and the point itself would be no less valid.
what's the hit rate on the last 10 biletnikoffs? how about the last 5 from the sec? amari cooper, jeudy, chase, devonta smith seems like a pretty solid continuum for any sec wr to add his name to. 2/4 made the pro bowl as rookies, 1 won roy.
how about the last 10 heisman? caleb williams, bryce young, devonta smith, joe burrow, kyler, baker, lamar, derrick henry have them on a 7 in a row hit streak with likely 5 first overall picks by this time next year. jameis may have tanked as a pro but he makes it 6 of the last 10 heisman winners going 1st overall with the ones who didn't being mariota (#2 overall), lamar, henry, and devonta smith. 2/10 won ROY. 6/8 that have debuted made pro bowls or all pro.
there are lots of reasons guys dont work out in the pros. more first round picks dont get second contracts with the team that drafts them than vice versa. but it seems to me that the last decade of college awards has actually been very well correlated with the nfl.
in the proliferated spread era and new rules cba which encompasses the more recent half of those last 10 years we've seen more qbs and wrs successfully step in from cfb to pros than any other prior era. so sorry but andre ware and danny wuerffel are just as bad comparisons to hyatt as ron dayne. you and your dupe friend should shift to corey coleman, that's at least a legitimate comparison but if you want to save time you could also just read my earlier response to christian about the b12.
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In comment 16125946 Eric on Li said:
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i can only imagine how fun your old handle must have been.
And Ron Dayne won the award that literally goes to the most outstanding player in college football. Remember?
And no one needs to imagine how fun your current handle is if this thread is any example.
ron dayne ran for 2k yards and 20 tds his senior year and that wasnt even his best year at wisconsin. he was an outstanding college football player regardless of being too fat and slow to be a good nfl player.
maybe you should give yourself a sabbatical on draft threads until your ron dayne trauma passes?
Again, the Ron Dayne reference is for those weighing the college-level award more than the actual scouting results.
Hyatt should be a nice asset for the Giants roster. And while he cost two middle rounds picks to obtain, getting him at #73 sure feels like a good catch. Hopefully he turns into exactly what you expect from him, the best WR available from this draft.
In comment 16126115 Eric on Li said:
If that alone was an airtight predictor, why was Hyatt the 10th WR chosen, and not even the first from the SEC? Which of those guys you listed made it to the 3rd round of their respective drafts?
how about the last 10 heisman? caleb williams, bryce young, devonta smith, joe burrow, kyler, baker, lamar, derrick henry have them on a 7 in a row hit streak with likely 5 first overall picks by this time next year. jameis may have tanked as a pro but he makes it 6 of the last 10 heisman winners going 1st overall with the ones who didn't being mariota (#2 overall), lamar, henry, and devonta smith. 2/10 won ROY. 6/8 that have debuted made pro bowls or all pro.
Hyatt didn't win the Heisman. Is this meant to indicate that the era in which Dayne won the Heisman was fundamentally less sophisticated than today? Or that the college game translates to the NFL more seamlessly? If that's the case, it seems odd that one of the things that supposedly dragged Hyatt's draft stock down somewhat was the translation of his offensive scheme to the NFL.
there are lots of reasons guys dont work out in the pros. more first round picks dont get second contracts with the team that drafts them than vice versa. but it seems to me that the last decade of college awards has actually been very well correlated with the nfl.
Again, why did this not apply to Hyatt in the draft then? The awards are public. The scouts and GMs know who won them. If they are a strong predictor of NFL success, it would be foolish to pass on any player who wins those awards, especially to take a player at the same position who didn't win those awards. Somehow, in spite of his Biletnikoff Award, Hyatt fell to the 3rd round and was the 10th WR taken.
in the proliferated spread era and new rules cba which encompasses the more recent half of those last 10 years we've seen more qbs and wrs successfully step in from cfb to pros than any other prior era. so sorry but andre ware and danny wuerffel are just as bad comparisons to hyatt as ron dayne. you and your dupe friend should shift to corey coleman, that's at least a legitimate comparison but if you want to save time you could also just read my earlier response to christian about the b12.
You may be 100% correct. But it's also accurate to point out that NFL GMs disagree with you or else Hyatt would have been drafted higher - they, as a group, tend to have very strong opinions about the traits that predict NFL success, and their draft choices reflect that. I'll leave your little ad hominem attack aside, at least until you decide to buy a keyboard with a shift key.
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In comment 16126015 nygiantfan said:
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In comment 16125946 Eric on Li said:
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i can only imagine how fun your old handle must have been.
And Ron Dayne won the award that literally goes to the most outstanding player in college football. Remember?
And no one needs to imagine how fun your current handle is if this thread is any example.
ron dayne ran for 2k yards and 20 tds his senior year and that wasnt even his best year at wisconsin. he was an outstanding college football player regardless of being too fat and slow to be a good nfl player.
maybe you should give yourself a sabbatical on draft threads until your ron dayne trauma passes?
Again, the Ron Dayne reference is for those weighing the college-level award more than the actual scouting results.
Hyatt should be a nice asset for the Giants roster. And while he cost two middle rounds picks to obtain, getting him at #73 sure feels like a good catch. Hopefully he turns into exactly what you expect from him, the best WR available from this draft.
it seems we've reached the point of the discussion where you realize your old argument was bad enough you need to make one up. show me where i said he was the best WR available in this draft?
actually let me save you time and ill just repost the initial comment i made which you found to be screaming for some ron dayne, and then we can just agree to go our separate ways until your next handle?
In comment 16124873 Eric on Li said:
rookies dont work out for a variety of reasons but the truth is nobody knows whether or not any of them will work out from the first pick to the last. brock purdy was literally mr irrelevant the year after zach wilson went #2 and his own team traded a haul to move up to #3 for trey lance.
there's of course a difference in the talent level of earlier and later picks but that's why hyatt is exciting because his pure talent level for a 3rd rounder is about as high as it gets. he is an explosive talent. no other player has put up more than 3 tds against a nick saban defense, even the ones who run a full route tree.
there are no air tight predictors in the nfl draft. 0. that's a strawman. he was the 2nd WR taken from the SEC behind Mingo, who i too may have taken over hyatt because he has a more pro level body type with almost as much explosiveness. reread all my posts with christian if you'd like to see why i think the league was softer on hyatt than expected, but the main differences i see are that he was a true 1 year wonder where the others weren't and accordingly did have a less diversified skill set on tape - especially if the comp set is jeudy, cooper, chase, devonta.
2a . Hyatt didn't win the Heisman. Is this meant to indicate that the era in which Dayne won the Heisman was fundamentally less sophisticated than today? Or that the college game translates to the NFL more seamlessly?
yes to both questions (the latter specifically being as obvious reality).
2b. If that's the case, it seems odd that one of the things that supposedly dragged Hyatt's draft stock down somewhat was the translation of his offensive scheme to the NFL.
we are in agreement on this. that's why i think the bigger factor was that the 5th, 6th, 7th wide receivers off the board who went ahead of hyatt despite being generally ranked lower by consensus pre-draft were seniors. like i said with mingo (and accordingly the 4 first rounders who were ranked higher than hyatt by consensus) i absolutely get it - he too is an explosive SEC receiver. I may have taken him over hyatt too. though for what the giants need (big plays) hyatt's skill set is a very good fit so the big play upside may have been worth it over mingo.
3. Again, why did this not apply to Hyatt in the draft then? The awards are public. The scouts and GMs know who won them. If they are a strong predictor of NFL success, it would be foolish to pass on any player who wins those awards, especially to take a player at the same position who didn't win those awards. Somehow, in spite of his Biletnikoff Award, Hyatt fell to the 3rd round and was the 10th WR taken.
why did AJB fall to the 2nd round?
why did dk metcalf fall to the last pick in the 2nd round?
why was justin jefferson the 5th wr taken and why did howie roseman take jalen reagar over him?
why was george pickens wr11 last year?
some players just fall through cracks. awards ARENT an end all be all. Corey Coleman did also win the biletnikoff with a very similar skill set as hyatt. teams evaluate the players in front of them relative to each other and make choices. hyatt's entire "fall" was 3 of them choosing other players that i probably wouldn't have chosen. we dont know if those were close calls for those teams or why they chose who they did, just that they made the decisions.
from my first post to this one my entire argument has been that hyatt's upside having done what he did in the sec relative to where he got selected was a huge value awards or not - which apparently the giants agreed with because they aggressively moved up for him because "he was sticking out like a sore thumb". it was the same reason i thought the robinson pick was justified last year even though the initial reactions were that it was a reach. producing in the sec, especially in games against bama/uga because those are basically NFL defenses, is something i think is very meaningful.
I'm hanging in there. There are still some moments where it gets me (one of my brothers had a hip replacement this week and, being at the top of the phone tree from my SIL, I went to call my dad to let him know that the surgery went well), but I've finally been able to let the grief itself go.
I always appreciate you checking in on me, Fiddy - thanks.
it seems we've reached the point of the discussion where you realize your old argument was bad enough you need to make one up. show me where i said he was the best WR available in this draft?
In comment 16124873 Eric on Li said:
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the guy was arguably the #1 receiver in all CFB last year of course he can be a #1 receiver in the nfl (whatver way you want to quantify it).
You said Hyatt was the best receiver in all of CFB last year, and he was also available in this past draft. By default, doesn't that make him the best WR available in this draft per you?
there are no air tight predictors in the nfl draft. 0. that's a strawman. he was the 2nd WR taken from the SEC behind Mingo, who i too may have taken over hyatt because he has a more pro level body type with almost as much explosiveness. reread all my posts with christian if you'd like to see why i think the league was softer on hyatt than expected, but the main differences i see are that he was a true 1 year wonder where the others weren't and accordingly did have a less diversified skill set on tape - especially if the comp set is jeudy, cooper, chase, devonta.
2a . Hyatt didn't win the Heisman. Is this meant to indicate that the era in which Dayne won the Heisman was fundamentally less sophisticated than today? Or that the college game translates to the NFL more seamlessly?
yes to both questions (the latter specifically being as obvious reality).
2b. If that's the case, it seems odd that one of the things that supposedly dragged Hyatt's draft stock down somewhat was the translation of his offensive scheme to the NFL.
we are in agreement on this. that's why i think the bigger factor was that the 5th, 6th, 7th wide receivers off the board who went ahead of hyatt despite being generally ranked lower by consensus pre-draft were seniors. like i said with mingo (and accordingly the 4 first rounders who were ranked higher than hyatt by consensus) i absolutely get it - he too is an explosive SEC receiver. I may have taken him over hyatt too. though for what the giants need (big plays) hyatt's skill set is a very good fit so the big play upside may have been worth it over mingo.
3. Again, why did this not apply to Hyatt in the draft then? The awards are public. The scouts and GMs know who won them. If they are a strong predictor of NFL success, it would be foolish to pass on any player who wins those awards, especially to take a player at the same position who didn't win those awards. Somehow, in spite of his Biletnikoff Award, Hyatt fell to the 3rd round and was the 10th WR taken.
why did AJB fall to the 2nd round?
why did dk metcalf fall to the last pick in the 2nd round?
why was justin jefferson the 5th wr taken and why did howie roseman take jalen reagar over him?
why was george pickens wr11 last year?
some players just fall through cracks. awards ARENT an end all be all. Corey Coleman did also win the biletnikoff with a very similar skill set as hyatt. teams evaluate the players in front of them relative to each other and make choices. hyatt's entire "fall" was 3 of them choosing other players that i probably wouldn't have chosen. we dont know if those were close calls for those teams or why they chose who they did, just that they made the decisions.
from my first post to this one my entire argument has been that hyatt's upside having done what he did in the sec relative to where he got selected was a huge value awards or not - which apparently the giants agreed with because they aggressively moved up for him because "he was sticking out like a sore thumb". it was the same reason i thought the robinson pick was justified last year even though the initial reactions were that it was a reach. producing in the sec, especially in games against bama/uga because those are basically NFL defenses, is something i think is very meaningful.
I actually agree with almost everything you've said. But I think you might not realize how frequently on this thread it has come across that you're clinging to the SEC/Biletnikoff as the key predictor that outranks all others.
I'm thrilled that the Giants were able to add Hyatt. I would have understood it if he had been a target even at #25OA, would have been happy at #57OA, and I think the Giants got a steal at #73OA. I just also realize that there are factors that NFL decision-makers obviously think represent a risk as it relates to Hyatt's game translating to the NFL, or else he should have been drafted earlier.
Yes, players do fall through the cracks, but my gut is that the opposite tends to be true when it comes to players who win the major collegiate awards. So when one of them does slide, and it's not for an obvious reason like triangle numbers or level of competition, I can't help but have slightly more reservation about the player. Simply, what do the scouts and GMs think they know that I'm not seeing? Because Hyatt shouldn't have been a 3rd round pick for all the reasons you've detailed. But he was.
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Last week marked 22 years since my Dad passed and I still “reach for the phone.”
I'm hanging in there. There are still some moments where it gets me (one of my brothers had a hip replacement this week and, being at the top of the phone tree from my SIL, I went to call my dad to let him know that the surgery went well), but I've finally been able to let the grief itself go.
I always appreciate you checking in on me, Fiddy - thanks.
Of course..The only thing that really changes is the acute pain. That subsides, but the pain of knowing that so much of who I became is because of his love and guidance, always remains
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it seems we've reached the point of the discussion where you realize your old argument was bad enough you need to make one up. show me where i said he was the best WR available in this draft?
In comment 16124873 Eric on Li said:
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the guy was arguably the #1 receiver in all CFB last year of course he can be a #1 receiver in the nfl (whatver way you want to quantify it).
You said Hyatt was the best receiver in all of CFB last year, and he was also available in this past draft. By default, doesn't that make him the best WR available in this draft per you?
inferring something i didnt say "by default" is a comprehension issue on your end.
in terms you might better understand ron dayne was probably my least draft pick of the last 25 years.
I actually agree with almost everything you've said. But I think you might not realize how frequently on this thread it has come across that you're clinging to the SEC/Biletnikoff as the key predictor that outranks all others.
I'm thrilled that the Giants were able to add Hyatt. I would have understood it if he had been a target even at #25OA, would have been happy at #57OA, and I think the Giants got a steal at #73OA. I just also realize that there are factors that NFL decision-makers obviously think represent a risk as it relates to Hyatt's game translating to the NFL, or else he should have been drafted earlier.
Yes, players do fall through the cracks, but my gut is that the opposite tends to be true when it comes to players who win the major collegiate awards. So when one of them does slide, and it's not for an obvious reason like triangle numbers or level of competition, I can't help but have slightly more reservation about the player. Simply, what do the scouts and GMs think they know that I'm not seeing? Because Hyatt shouldn't have been a 3rd round pick for all the reasons you've detailed. But he was.
the biletnikoff stuff came up over and over again because the dupe found it objectionable that i called hyatt "arguably the best wr in CFB last year". go back and read the initial back and forth before I realized he was a dupe, he brought up the biletnikoff specifically and negatively correlated awards as a predictor of success bc of ron dayne.
i've not in a single post said there weren't risks with hyatt because there are risks with every single player in the nfl draft every single year. evan neal was one of the safest picks the nyg have ever made and he had an awful rookie year. that is the nature of the draft.
the part of your reply that i bolded is something i find interesting because while i agree with you intuitively, i think there is also a sort of a negative rebound effect that happens when something appears too obvious - kind of like when DK Metcalf did what he did in the SEC and at the combine and yet somehow still got drafted behind Andy Isabella (and 8 others). when players who get a lot of attention but also have glaring resume gaps, there's a rebound effect where the narrative gets overstated. it's arguable that the same thing happened to lamar jackson. good reasons why those guys weren't top 10 picks, but they fell way farther than they should have. people question things that they dont understand and i do think it's a little hard to understand how a guy who didnt play much for 2 years came out of nowhere to make alabama look like a pop warner defense basically running only go routes and crossers.
the giants similarly selected a 1 year wonder who was hard to understand last year because he was 5'7 with short arms, yet he too led the sec in receiving. where most saw "gadget" the giants saw more than that with wandale and up until he got hurt it looked like the giants were correct to see more. this regime's enthusiasm for hyatt and their track record with both SEC receivers and receivers who played for Josh Heupel (Gabe Davis) gives me some confidence that some of the risks associated with hyatt are overstated.
You have the Bama (who had lots of issues last season) game with 6/209/5TD's and then four blowout wins where he goes for well over 100 yards against UT Martin, Missouri, Kentucky (down year) and Akron.
Georgia and South Carolina beat Tenn. easily and he had middling stats in those games as he did against the rest of the schedule.
Perhaps if the Georgia game was another standout game or if they had played in the CFP and he shined in that one his profile would have been raised.
Between the system and not a very big body of work it seems fair he fell. The Bama game was also early in the season.
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In comment 16126134 Eric on Li said:
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it seems we've reached the point of the discussion where you realize your old argument was bad enough you need to make one up. show me where i said he was the best WR available in this draft?
In comment 16124873 Eric on Li said:
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the guy was arguably the #1 receiver in all CFB last year of course he can be a #1 receiver in the nfl (whatver way you want to quantify it).
You said Hyatt was the best receiver in all of CFB last year, and he was also available in this past draft. By default, doesn't that make him the best WR available in this draft per you?
inferring something i didnt say "by default" is a comprehension issue on your end.
Why is this such a disputed inference?
You said Hyatt was the #1 CFB receiver. That makes him the top receiver whether he's coming out for the draft or not. He did as a matter of simple fact make himself eligible for the draft therefore he should be your #1 receiver in the draft.