Since I know nothing about him save for what I’ve read, I’m wondering why many refer to him as “not a true number 1?”
Please don’t parrot the “route tree” stuff unless you’ve actually watched him play beyond some YouTube highlights and are actually familiar with what he was or wasn’t asked to do in college.
We have a terrific coaching staff who seem to be noted for getting players to realize their full and true potential.
So aside from “anything’s possible,” does he have the requisite skillset to be a number 1 receiver IYO?
If he can be a competent route runner, then yes he can be a #1. I think the belief is he is, at worst, Darius Slayton with better speed and much better hands.
As of now, I expect Waller will be their #1.
The real question here is whether he will be OUR #1 WR
Waller looks like our #1 receiving talent this year.....as long as he stays healthy.
Of course, but do you feel he has the tools to be one?
A serious deficiency in any of those attributes would knock a player down a peg or two. That’s why there are so few true number ones. Let’s hope Jalin has the natural ability and work ethic to approach that.
KC doesnt have a #1WR. They have a #1 Target in their TE in Kelce. Most of the years Brady played he didnt have a #1WR. He had a #1 target in Gronk at TE.
Its VERY possible that the #1 target for the Giants would be Waller.
We know that, but many have stated BEFORE he’s played an NFL down, that he’s “not a true number 1,” as if they do not believe he will or can be. I just want to know why?
KC doesnt have a #1WR. They have a #1 Target in their TE in Kelce. Most of the years Brady played he didnt have a #1WR. He had a #1 target in Gronk at TE.
Its VERY possible that the #1 target for the Giants would be Waller.
He most likely will be, but that’s a target. I want to know about JH’s ability to be number 1 at WR
Quote:
Does he have potential to develop? Absolutely.
We know that, but many have stated BEFORE he’s played an NFL down, that he’s “not a true number 1,” as if they do not believe he will or can be. I just want to know why?
If that is what you are concerned about then the answer is simple, he's never done it in college so why would people say the opposite as a pro. Go earn it.
Waller looks like our #1 receiving talent this year.....as long as he stays healthy.
Nonsense. How much quickness did Chris Carter have?
Quote:
.
Of course, but do you feel he has the tools to be one?
Great hands and faster than any receiver in the league???? So yeah, I feel he does have the tools.
Quote:
In comment 16124536 Giant John said:
Quote:
Does he have potential to develop? Absolutely.
We know that, but many have stated BEFORE he’s played an NFL down, that he’s “not a true number 1,” as if they do not believe he will or can be. I just want to know why?
If that is what you are concerned about then the answer is simple, he's never done it in college so why would people say the opposite as a pro. Go earn it.
That’s fair, but why was he projected as a possible first rounder? Unless you’re a standout slot receiver who might be taken in round one (usually not), why was he projected by some/a bunch, to be first round material?
Poor KC didn't a #1 this year. They had to settle for Kelce. Hyatt is a TBD but if the Gms knew who would develop each year there would be so much turnover would there lol. It's why I utterly don't get the Slayton hate. The guy gets more shit than Golloday it seemed at times.
If Hyatt is a starter or gets significant snaps over his career its a successful pick. He becomes a number 1 Schoen deserves a huge raise
Quote:
In comment 16124549 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 16124536 Giant John said:
Quote:
Does he have potential to develop? Absolutely.
We know that, but many have stated BEFORE he’s played an NFL down, that he’s “not a true number 1,” as if they do not believe he will or can be. I just want to know why?
If that is what you are concerned about then the answer is simple, he's never done it in college so why would people say the opposite as a pro. Go earn it.
That’s fair, but why was he projected as a possible first rounder? Unless you’re a standout slot receiver who might be taken in round one (usually not), why was he projected by some/a bunch, to be first round material?
Speed and production in the SEC and not a great WR class at the top of the draft. I think your threqd title and what uou just said are two different things. One, your thread title says he can't as in never will. Your last comment says not as in right now. He isn't a number 1 so that is what people are saying.
In addition, you need to first define what a number 1 WR is. Not all teams have one. Imo, a number 1 needs to basically do one of these two things consistently game after game, seas9n after season. One, get peppered with targets that reults in a majority of wins against all types 9f players and coverages. Think of a Devante Adams. Two, you get a ton of attention from the defense, so much so that it opens up the running game and one on one matchups for your teammates in the passing game. Long story short, he is always affecting the game in a positive way for his teammates. Being fast and having good hands isn't enough.
Remember that JS didn’t even have Hyatt on his radar when he saw the breakout Bama game.
Can he pull a Kupp or Hill? That would be amazing but the odds are very, very low. Hyatt just doesn’t have that level of movement skills to get open quickly, and that’s a big deal for an undersized wr.
Quote:
In comment 16124551 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 16124549 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 16124536 Giant John said:
Quote:
Does he have potential to develop? Absolutely.
We know that, but many have stated BEFORE he’s played an NFL down, that he’s “not a true number 1,” as if they do not believe he will or can be. I just want to know why?
If that is what you are concerned about then the answer is simple, he's never done it in college so why would people say the opposite as a pro. Go earn it.
That’s fair, but why was he projected as a possible first rounder? Unless you’re a standout slot receiver who might be taken in round one (usually not), why was he projected by some/a bunch, to be first round material?
Speed and production in the SEC and not a great WR class at the top of the draft. I think your threqd title and what uou just said are two different things. One, your thread title says he can't as in never will. Your last comment says not as in right now. He isn't a number 1 so that is what people are saying.
In addition, you need to first define what a number 1 WR is. Not all teams have one. Imo, a number 1 needs to basically do one of these two things consistently game after game, seas9n after season. One, get peppered with targets that reults in a majority of wins against all types 9f players and coverages. Think of a Devante Adams. Two, you get a ton of attention from the defense, so much so that it opens up the running game and one on one matchups for your teammates in the passing game. Long story short, he is always affecting the game in a positive way for his teammates. Being fast and having good hands isn't enough.
Ok, I see where my thread title can be interpreted that way. It’s in reponsetothose who say he can’t or won’t be a number 1 and I was asking, why can’t he be? That was my honest intent with the thread title
You can't ignore the poor track record of receivers who have come from that Art Briles system in the NFL. Those guys aren't learning to beat the jam against press coverage and they aren't learning how to do a lot schematically down field.
It's a genuine deficit when you come into the NFL. Transitioning to the NFL is hard enough. But these guys are jumping a level of competition and also have to learn some basics. It's chewed up talented guys.
The big, big reason to be optimistic about Hyatt is Kafka ran a bunch of the stack concepts from the Briles system last year.
I think he can be a day one contributor and will get his looks. The one knock I think is really worth watching is his limited moves with the ball in his hands. He's obviously crazy fast, but so are NFL defenders. He won't be able just to blow by everyone. He needs to showcase more wiggle.
Love Toomer, but remember we had to get a better no.1 wr to win the super bowl.
KC doesnt have a #1WR. They have a #1 Target in their TE in Kelce. Most of the years Brady played he didnt have a #1WR. He had a #1 target in Gronk at TE.
Its VERY possible that the #1 target for the Giants would be Waller.
I think it's very likely that Waller will be the main target. Regarding Hyatt, there are two things he needs to answer on the field - route running and being able to deal with press coverage. If he does well in both areas, we got a steal in round 3.
Also, I believe he was not considered an obvious #1 by the scouting services because he was not on the pre 2022 wr lists because Tillman was on them. Changing pre-conceived notions is not a strong male trait.
Also, I believe he was not considered an obvious #1 by the scouting services because he was not on the pre 2022 wr lists because Tillman was on them. Changing pre-conceived notions is not a strong male trait.
Yes, agree with your first sentence
He has the skills to be whatever Dabes wants him to be.
Many solid posts on here, but sorry, this is the “winner.” 😂
I just saw him against Bama and Tenn. had WR's running open all over the field.
More connects down the field will help the offense and at least he has speed.
We don’t know if he can run the whole route tree effectively because he didn’t do it in college. We also don’t know if he can beat press coverage off the line because he never had to do it in college. There is a reason the guy was available in the 3rd round.
Nobody knows what the guys true capability is, but he is coming into the league with a lot more question marks than most guys who go on to become top receivers.
We don’t know if he can run the whole route tree effectively because he didn’t do it in college. We also don’t know if he can beat press coverage off the line because he never had to do it in college. There is a reason the guy was available in the 3rd round.
Nobody knows what the guys true capability is, but he is coming into the league with a lot more question marks than most guys who go on to become top receivers.
It has been discussed a lot and perhaps people think it's overblown. On the other hand it depends on whether or not cornerbacks line up in press coverage against him and whether or not he knows how to beat it; the Giants for instance line up corners at least 5 yards off.
We don’t know if he can run the whole route tree effectively because he didn’t do it in college. We also don’t know if he can beat press coverage off the line because he never had to do it in college. There is a reason the guy was available in the 3rd round.
Nobody knows what the guys true capability is, but he is coming into the league with a lot more question marks than most guys who go on to become top receivers.
It’s a valid concern if, as I mentioned in the OP, people actually saw him play and deduced that he wasn’t a good “route-treer.” But my sense is that a bunch of the media just parrots what they’ve heard and didn’t actually watch him play or even noticed the “route tree.” If that is true, I learn nothing from them and that’s WHY I alluded to it in my OP..
I want to learn why he supposedly has a problem with it and not that he does without substance to the assertion.
Quote:
Not sure why that can’t be discussed.
We don’t know if he can run the whole route tree effectively because he didn’t do it in college. We also don’t know if he can beat press coverage off the line because he never had to do it in college. There is a reason the guy was available in the 3rd round.
Nobody knows what the guys true capability is, but he is coming into the league with a lot more question marks than most guys who go on to become top receivers.
It’s a valid concern if, as I mentioned in the OP, people actually saw him play and deduced that he wasn’t a good “route-treer.” But my sense is that a bunch of the media just parrots what they’ve heard and didn’t actually watch him play or even noticed the “route tree.” If that is true, I learn nothing from them and that’s WHY I alluded to it in my OP..
I want to learn why he supposedly has a problem with it and not that he does without substance to the assertion.
Did you watch him play and deduce that he CAN in fact run the whole route tree?
KC doesnt have a #1WR. They have a #1 Target in their TE in Kelce. Most of the years Brady played he didnt have a #1WR. He had a #1 target in Gronk at TE.
Its VERY possible that the #1 target for the Giants would be Waller.
You're kinda glossing right over a pretty important fact. You just gave 2 examples of teams that don't have a #1 WR, but they have 2 of the best QB's in history. #1 WR is real. Look at all the good teams and all the good offenses and they all have bonafide #1 WR's.
We don’t know if he can run the whole route tree effectively because he didn’t do it in college. We also don’t know if he can beat press coverage off the line because he never had to do it in college. There is a reason the guy was available in the 3rd round.
Nobody knows what the guys true capability is, but he is coming into the league with a lot more question marks than most guys who go on to become top receivers.
Exactly. Heupel is running one of the most innovative approaches to tempo and targeting in all of college football. Hyatt succeeded like many other WRs have in the Briles-based system. And virtually all of those WRs have fizzled in the NFL.
Quote:
In comment 16124698 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
Not sure why that can’t be discussed.
We don’t know if he can run the whole route tree effectively because he didn’t do it in college. We also don’t know if he can beat press coverage off the line because he never had to do it in college. There is a reason the guy was available in the 3rd round.
Nobody knows what the guys true capability is, but he is coming into the league with a lot more question marks than most guys who go on to become top receivers.
It’s a valid concern if, as I mentioned in the OP, people actually saw him play and deduced that he wasn’t a good “route-treer.” But my sense is that a bunch of the media just parrots what they’ve heard and didn’t actually watch him play or even noticed the “route tree.” If that is true, I learn nothing from them and that’s WHY I alluded to it in my OP..
I want to learn why he supposedly has a problem with it and not that he does without substance to the assertion.
Did you watch him play and deduce that he CAN in fact run the whole route tree?
Reading is fundamental. I said I never saw him play. I said unless someone actually saw him run or didn’t run a route tree, I don’t want to read it from those who are parroting what they read or heard. I want actual observations on this subject. That’s how I learn.
Seriously, perhaps at some point, not this year.
We don’t know if he can run the whole route tree effectively because he didn’t do it in college. We also don’t know if he can beat press coverage off the line because he never had to do it in college. There is a reason the guy was available in the 3rd round....
Oh it can be discussed. Now do you(or I) know what "running the entire route tree" means? That is an important question.
And he did have press coverage in college and he did beat it. It was not often, but he faced it.
And believe it or not, there are ways to defeat press coverage - motion, stacked formations, etc., besides muscling through it. And then that brings in the point that if he beats press off the LoS, he is likely going to have a huge gain with his speed. Very few CBs will be able to run with him. Once he gets a step, good bye.
Daboll/Kafka now have weapons to spread out and attack defenses.
Hyatt has elite straight line speed that creates issues for defenses.
It's also easy to see on tape.
That's why he fell to third round.
I'll give Hyatt two or three years to become a "number 1" receiver, or whatever you want to call it, but right now, that is not really relevant.
Quote:
They said the same thing about Amani Toomer.
Love Toomer, but remember we had to get a better no.1 wr to win the super bowl.
Toomer made a lot of big catches and plays during that championship season, he was a part of the reason Plax was a effective he was
Plax was also trending down in '03 -'04. Who knows, maybe he wouldn't have been a FA otherwise.
Quote:
In comment 16124709 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 16124698 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
Not sure why that can’t be discussed.
We don’t know if he can run the whole route tree effectively because he didn’t do it in college. We also don’t know if he can beat press coverage off the line because he never had to do it in college. There is a reason the guy was available in the 3rd round.
Nobody knows what the guys true capability is, but he is coming into the league with a lot more question marks than most guys who go on to become top receivers.
It’s a valid concern if, as I mentioned in the OP, people actually saw him play and deduced that he wasn’t a good “route-treer.” But my sense is that a bunch of the media just parrots what they’ve heard and didn’t actually watch him play or even noticed the “route tree.” If that is true, I learn nothing from them and that’s WHY I alluded to it in my OP..
I want to learn why he supposedly has a problem with it and not that he does without substance to the assertion.
Did you watch him play and deduce that he CAN in fact run the whole route tree?
Reading is fundamental. I said I never saw him play. I said unless someone actually saw him run or didn’t run a route tree, I don’t want to read it from those who are parroting what they read or heard. I want actual observations on this subject. That’s how I learn.
Forgive me oh wise one for not going back and re-reading the original post before replying to this one.
Quote:
In comment 16124711 RicFlair said:
Quote:
In comment 16124709 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 16124698 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
Not sure why that can’t be discussed.
We don’t know if he can run the whole route tree effectively because he didn’t do it in college. We also don’t know if he can beat press coverage off the line because he never had to do it in college. There is a reason the guy was available in the 3rd round.
Nobody knows what the guys true capability is, but he is coming into the league with a lot more question marks than most guys who go on to become top receivers.
It’s a valid concern if, as I mentioned in the OP, people actually saw him play and deduced that he wasn’t a good “route-treer.” But my sense is that a bunch of the media just parrots what they’ve heard and didn’t actually watch him play or even noticed the “route tree.” If that is true, I learn nothing from them and that’s WHY I alluded to it in my OP..
I want to learn why he supposedly has a problem with it and not that he does without substance to the assertion.
Did you watch him play and deduce that he CAN in fact run the whole route tree?
Reading is fundamental. I said I never saw him play. I said unless someone actually saw him run or didn’t run a route tree, I don’t want to read it from those who are parroting what they read or heard. I want actual observations on this subject. That’s how I learn.
Forgive me oh wise one for not going back and re-reading the original post before replying to this one.
That “Reading is Fundamental” was not necessary Ric..Apologies
There are several routes that aren't actually on the tree.
Otherwise you're talking about the ability to run a dig (90* cuts), slants posts and corners (45ish* cuts), curls, hooks, arrows etc...
The real test for me is recognizing with the defense actually is post-snap and adjusting your route or choosing the required option instantly.
I agree with the comment that"running the entire route tree" is nothing more than people parroting what they believe is an "industry term."
When we had Nicks and Cruz who would be considered the number one you could say it was Cruz you could say it was Nicks. Did it really matter. Take Miami right now. They have Tyreek Hill and Waddle. Who is the number one does it really matter?
When we had Nicks and Cruz who would be considered the number one you could say it was Cruz you could say it was Nicks. Did it really matter. Take Miami right now. They have Tyreek Hill and Waddle. Who is the number one does it really matter?
It's divisive for the team, IMHO. So don't sweat it.
rookies dont work out for a variety of reasons but the truth is nobody knows whether or not any of them will work out from the first pick to the last. brock purdy was literally mr irrelevant the year after zach wilson went #2 and his own team traded a haul to move up to #3 for trey lance.
there's of course a difference in the talent level of earlier and later picks but that's why hyatt is exciting because his pure talent level for a 3rd rounder is about as high as it gets. he is an explosive talent. no other player has put up more than 3 tds against a nick saban defense, even the ones who run a full route tree.
The league is just reluctant because of the number of WRs who have flopped from that system.
I think it was Kafka who said the other day college is like 4 years ahead of the NFL, so I hope he's implementing some of the Briles + Heupel stuff.
The league is just reluctant because of the number of WRs who have flopped from that system.
I think it was Kafka who said the other day college is like 4 years ahead of the NFL, so I hope he's implementing some of the Briles + Heupel stuff.
the briles system specifically under briles (or the leach/dykes teams and even up to stoops/snyder) havent had a lot of big talents tested against top competition. there have been a lot of big 12 wr busts generally, id imagine in large part because they got overrated playing against crappy defenses. there have also been success from that snyder/stoops/leach tree from tyler lockett to crabtree to lamb to hollywood brown. just not as many as the sec but i would first guess that's bc they don't get players as good as the sec (or even big 10/acc).
there's a reason the spread has expanded the way it has through the sec over the last decade to great effect. lane kiffin is probably the single person most responsible for adapting the bama offense that's pumped out just as many stud wrs as osu/lsu. lincoln riley just got paid a fortune bc his fingerprints are over the nfl (in part why he was able to spend a fortune to get addison). joe brady unlocked lsu with the spread and launched himself into the nfl in 1 year. heupel may do some unique stuff but the spread is basically ubiquitous at this point. the fact that heupel coached gabe davis should give us some confidence that daboll/schoen have a pretty good handle on the specific task ahead.
hyatt's biggest risk imo is not the system or scheme projection but just that he hasnt played a ton of football as a junior entry whose first year was the covid year and missing a chunk of his second year with injury. there just isn't a huge track record to go on. but i would bet if he went back and had a healthy senior year he would not have made it anywhere close to pick 73.
I think worries about press coverage and his weight are overrated. I do think he needs to keep hitting the weights to add strength in his lower half..their were yac opportunities in his videos where if he had kept his balance just broke an arm tackle there’s chance for huge gains. I think he will though. If you read enough on him, there’s a few articles where they mention that early on in his career he was reluctant to put on weight because he was worried it would impact his speed. For those complaining about his weight/frame realize he was playing his freshman year under 160lbs. I think it’s only in the last year or maybe slightly more that he bought in and really focused on the weight room and obviously it didn’t impact his speed in a negative manner..quite the opposite(the tape doesn’t lie..it’s legitimate elite downfield speed).
We don’t know if he can run the whole route tree effectively because he didn’t do it in college. We also don’t know if he can beat press coverage off the line because he never had to do it in college. There is a reason the guy was available in the 3rd round.
Nobody knows what the guys true capability is, but he is coming into the league with a lot more question marks than most guys who go on to become top receivers.
I don't understand this at all... he's obviously stupid fast, a great athlete and has great hands. So we're saying he may not be able to run a slant? Or a Go-route??? Really?
The "can't run the route tree" is the hot take of the 2020s...
Isn't that semantics, though? If your TE1 is getting the target-share that a WR1 in a prolific offense would get, does it matter whether you label your top WR a WR1 or not? Unless you use the player like a WR1 gets used, he's not a WR1, IMO.
Like how Ron Dayne was arguably the best RB in CFB when he won the Heisman?
And if you're being fair, Toomer is a very good example of a receiver who was at his best as a 1B with a 1A (Burress) opposite him, and even without Plax, Toomer was generally viewed as a 2nd tier WR1 (at best). So those same things could have been said about Toomer and they could have been valid, even as he was compiling a tremendous body of work for the Giants over the course of his full career.
Quote:
of course he can be a #1 receiver in the nfl (whatever way you want to quantify it).
Like how Ron Dayne was arguably the best RB in CFB when he won the Heisman?
projecting to the pros ron dayne's standout qualities were what?
Hyatt is fast and had a monster game against Alabama and that got him a Belitnikoff award. But the point is NFL GMs thought 9 other college wide receivers have games that translate better to the pros.
he certainly wasnt randy moss or marvin harrison, but after the 5-10 guys in that cluster he was in the next group with the terry glenn, joey galloway, jimmy smiths, keyshawn johnsons of the world even though his reputation was more under the radar.
when he hit 30 his explosiveness went over a cliff and he became a role player. body control was still there but he had no ability to separate.
Hyatt is fast and had a monster game against Alabama and that got him a Belitnikoff award. But the point is NFL GMs thought 9 other college wide receivers have games that translate better to the pros.
howie roseman thought jalen reagor would translate better to the pros than justin jefferson.
dk metcalf was the 9ther wr taken in 2019, a few picks after andy isabella. howie roseman took JJ arcega whiteside ahead of him.
that same draft ajb and deebo samuel went in round 2 (after bill belichek took nkeal harry in round 1).
those are 4 glaring mistakes so as far as gm consensus when splitting hairs between wr5/wr9 there's an extensive recent history of sec wrs in the 2nd/3rd round outperforming guys picked ahead of them so it's not the best position to argue the power of conventional gm wisdom.
the draft is an unknown, im not quite sure what your point is but ron dayne has nothing in common with jalin hyatt. ron dayne was a 4 year starter who at the time didn't just win a heisman for 1 great year but was more anointed a lifetime achievement award for breaking ricky williams career record. he didnt perform at the combine because he weighed in at 259 pounds and probably would have run a 4.8. the giants made a stupid pick.
As for Hyatt yeah why not, could be 1 or not.
As for Hyatt yeah why not, could be 1 or not.
Michigan ran the wing T in the early 1990s?
Does any of these jokes even make you chuckle? Because I doubt they bring any humor to anyone else.
the point of my post was that he has that potential, not that he's some kind of lock to reach his potential, so it seems you agree with that?
if you reread my post i specifically noted that the probability is a separate part of the equation.
In comment 16124873 Eric on Li said:
the dayne reference continues to be flawed. i hated the ron dayne pick in real time, still remember exactly where i was when i heard they made it, but if he was an exceptional athlete who had a great combine in combination with his production perhaps his NFL career would have actually tracked ricky williams and nobody would have hated it? and certainly if that happened AND he'd fallen to the 2nd or 3rd round even those of us that hated the pick would have felt very differently.
Quote:
Not sure why that can’t be discussed.
We don’t know if he can run the whole route tree effectively because he didn’t do it in college. We also don’t know if he can beat press coverage off the line because he never had to do it in college. There is a reason the guy was available in the 3rd round.
Nobody knows what the guys true capability is, but he is coming into the league with a lot more question marks than most guys who go on to become top receivers.
It’s a valid concern if, as I mentioned in the OP, people actually saw him play and deduced that he wasn’t a good “route-treer.” But my sense is that a bunch of the media just parrots what they’ve heard and didn’t actually watch him play or even noticed the “route tree.” If that is true, I learn nothing from them and that’s WHY I alluded to it in my OP..
I want to learn why he supposedly has a problem with it and not that he does without substance to the assertion.
So you want people to explain why he can't do something he has never done? The questions are there simply because he has never done it - or possibly never been asked to do it.
You can equate this with returning punts. Can Jalin Hyatt return punts? Nobody has seen anything to prove he can't, but would you just believe he can do it at a high level? It is an unknown. Running the full route tree at an NFL level is not easy. We'll all believe he can do it at a high level when there is evidence to suggest he can.
If Hyatt had shown everything teams needed to see on tape to be a first round grade, he would have been a first rounder. Per Schoen the Giants were comfortable drafting Banks despite having only one big year on his belt, because he showed everything he needed to see.
There was a good article after the Bama win in the Athletic describing how Heupel has combined a lot of the Air Raid and spread concepts, with the more extreme elements of Briles offense.
I watched way more college ball at that time, and that Briles system is extreme. The WRs are stacked and lined up basically off the screen. The entire offense is about scheming one guy open over the top open. It's an awesome system. It's also largely a single read system so that might favor Jones as well.
Quote:
Not sure why that can’t be discussed.
We don’t know if he can run the whole route tree effectively because he didn’t do it in college. We also don’t know if he can beat press coverage off the line because he never had to do it in college. There is a reason the guy was available in the 3rd round.
Nobody knows what the guys true capability is, but he is coming into the league with a lot more question marks than most guys who go on to become top receivers.
I don't understand this at all... he's obviously stupid fast, a great athlete and has great hands. So we're saying he may not be able to run a slant? Or a Go-route??? Really?
The "can't run the route tree" is the hot take of the 2020s...
So everyone who is fast can gain separation in the NFL? Running routes is just about speed and knowing which way to run?
This site...
Quote:
Not sure why that can’t be discussed.
We don’t know if he can run the whole route tree effectively because he didn’t do it in college. We also don’t know if he can beat press coverage off the line because he never had to do it in college. There is a reason the guy was available in the 3rd round....
Oh it can be discussed. Now do you(or I) know what "running the entire route tree" means? That is an important question.
And he did have press coverage in college and he did beat it. It was not often, but he faced it.
And believe it or not, there are ways to defeat press coverage - motion, stacked formations, etc., besides muscling through it. And then that brings in the point that if he beats press off the LoS, he is likely going to have a huge gain with his speed. Very few CBs will be able to run with him. Once he gets a step, good bye.
Of course you can scheme guys open and stack formations to keep a WR from press coverage. The question is then "how many #1 WRs in the NFL need that on a regular basis?" I think that answer would be none, because you are describing a guy who has limitations you need to plan around.
Hyatt may be able to easily beat press coverage and run the full route tree at an exceptionally high level. I hope he can do both and explodes into a top WR in this league. I just don't understand the view of "explain to me why the guy drafted in the third round won't be special" argument. As JonC said, the odds are against it. Someone beats those odds every year and I hope Hyatt does, but it is certainly more realistic to hope this guy can contribute as opposed to dominate.
Quote:
In comment 16124717 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 16124711 RicFlair said:
Quote:
In comment 16124709 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 16124698 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
Not sure why that can’t be discussed.
We don’t know if he can run the whole route tree effectively because he didn’t do it in college. We also don’t know if he can beat press coverage off the line because he never had to do it in college. There is a reason the guy was available in the 3rd round.
Nobody knows what the guys true capability is, but he is coming into the league with a lot more question marks than most guys who go on to become top receivers.
It’s a valid concern if, as I mentioned in the OP, people actually saw him play and deduced that he wasn’t a good “route-treer.” But my sense is that a bunch of the media just parrots what they’ve heard and didn’t actually watch him play or even noticed the “route tree.” If that is true, I learn nothing from them and that’s WHY I alluded to it in my OP..
I want to learn why he supposedly has a problem with it and not that he does without substance to the assertion.
Did you watch him play and deduce that he CAN in fact run the whole route tree?
Reading is fundamental. I said I never saw him play. I said unless someone actually saw him run or didn’t run a route tree, I don’t want to read it from those who are parroting what they read or heard. I want actual observations on this subject. That’s how I learn.
Forgive me oh wise one for not going back and re-reading the original post before replying to this one.
That “Reading is Fundamental” was not necessary Ric..Apologies
Appreciated and forgiven.
Quote:
In comment 16124698 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
Not sure why that can’t be discussed.
We don’t know if he can run the whole route tree effectively because he didn’t do it in college. We also don’t know if he can beat press coverage off the line because he never had to do it in college. There is a reason the guy was available in the 3rd round.
Nobody knows what the guys true capability is, but he is coming into the league with a lot more question marks than most guys who go on to become top receivers.
It’s a valid concern if, as I mentioned in the OP, people actually saw him play and deduced that he wasn’t a good “route-treer.” But my sense is that a bunch of the media just parrots what they’ve heard and didn’t actually watch him play or even noticed the “route tree.” If that is true, I learn nothing from them and that’s WHY I alluded to it in my OP..
I want to learn why he supposedly has a problem with it and not that he does without substance to the assertion.
So you want people to explain why he can't do something he has never done? The questions are there simply because he has never done it - or possibly never been asked to do it.
You can equate this with returning punts. Can Jalin Hyatt return punts? Nobody has seen anything to prove he can't, but would you just believe he can do it at a high level? It is an unknown. Running the full route tree at an NFL level is not easy. We'll all believe he can do it at a high level when there is evidence to suggest he can.
You’re missing the point. I am not discounting the import of the route tree. I just don’t want to hear opinions I can easily google. I want opinions from those people who have seen him play in real time. Not highlights, not YouTube, not general opinions. I want info from those who have watched Hyatt live either in person (preferable) or on TV..
If you have seen Hyatt play full games, I want to learn from you. Otherwise, I couldn’t care less what you have culled from media reports. I can do that myself.
I am not interested in the route tree per se, I am interested in Hyatt only as it pertains to it. Whether he’s run it or not, I want to hear from those who have seen him run it or have not seen him run it while watching him in real time.
That’s all I care about
if zay flowers came out as a junior he wouldn't have been a first round pick.
if devonta smith came out as a junior he wouldn't have been a first round pick.
jameson williams had 15 total catches in college heading into his junior year and entered the draft rehabbing a torn acl.
trying to make sense of the draft is like trying to make sense of the stock market at one given moment in time. some things are obvious, others are confusing in real time and for me hyatt's slide to the 3rd round is one of those things because the red flags arent tangible like being 5'7.
hyatt was possibly the highest upside selection relative to pick # of any nyg pick i can recall. tuck is the only comparable one i can think of (he was also one of the first juniors i remember the nyg drafting). id have been just as thrilled with tank dell so this isn't an irrational love of 1 player but rather that he and tank happened to be the best big play guys in the draft with enormous productivity and that's why the nyg needed. would have been happy with either in round 2 over jms (though i get why they did that). getting either in round 3 seemed unrealistic to me, and hyatt much moreso than dell since he did it against better competition and has better tangibles.
I think teams are drafting more on ceiling than anything else at WR, so I was surprised he lasted.
The entire football world seems to agree great production, great hands, elite speed. I don't think it's complicated why he wasn't a round one player. At best it's going to take some time for him to establish he can do the table stakes stuff he wasn't asked to do in college. And there's an outside chance he can't do those things.
The first and most relevant point is that even the pros are clearly not very good at predicting ceilings well. Ample evidence of that...
There are just too many unknowns here to weigh in the affirmative as for a low probability event it gets even lower if you are not referring to various dominant college seasons.
Add in for a #1 you are probably talking about needing to have at least 2 to in all likelihood 3 elite traits in terms of speed/elusiveness/hands/size/route running. I'd say he only really has proven 1 at this point although upper echelon there clearly.
But you can't really do Tyreek because Tyreek is like top of class in speed and elusiveness so you can even debate the rest of the traits all you want there but Hyatt isn't going to learn to be on the same continent as Hill in elusiveness.
I really think we will be happy with him as a pick, especially in the 3rd round but hoping for him to turn into a #1 seems to just be setting yourself up for disappointment.
i see the point you are trying to make here but it's just incorrect. there are a lot of college players who compile statistics and awards but dont project well to the pros because of a lack of athleticism and ron dayne's 4 years as one of the most decorated rbs in cfb history was a poster child for them.
hyatt is an explosive track athlete 1 year wonder early declaration, which is basically the exact opposite type of profile.
dayne was literally and figuratively on the opposite end of the scale. this is a comparison so stupid i cant believe it's taken this many replies to use the word the stupid.
The first and most relevant point is that even the pros are clearly not very good at predicting ceilings well. Ample evidence of that...
There are just too many unknowns here to weigh in the affirmative as for a low probability event it gets even lower if you are not referring to various dominant college seasons.
Add in for a #1 you are probably talking about needing to have at least 2 to in all likelihood 3 elite traits in terms of speed/elusiveness/hands/size/route running. I'd say he only really has proven 1 at this point although upper echelon there clearly.
But you can't really do Tyreek because Tyreek is like top of class in speed and elusiveness so you can even debate the rest of the traits all you want there but Hyatt isn't going to learn to be on the same continent as Hill in elusiveness.
I really think we will be happy with him as a pick, especially in the 3rd round but hoping for him to turn into a #1 seems to just be setting yourself up for disappointment.
"setting yourself up for disappointment"
Is this not a fan's #1 job?
:)
The first and most relevant point is that even the pros are clearly not very good at predicting ceilings well. Ample evidence of that...
There are just too many unknowns here to weigh in the affirmative as for a low probability event it gets even lower if you are not referring to various dominant college seasons.
Add in for a #1 you are probably talking about needing to have at least 2 to in all likelihood 3 elite traits in terms of speed/elusiveness/hands/size/route running. I'd say he only really has proven 1 at this point although upper echelon there clearly.
But you can't really do Tyreek because Tyreek is like top of class in speed and elusiveness so you can even debate the rest of the traits all you want there but Hyatt isn't going to learn to be on the same continent as Hill in elusiveness.
I really think we will be happy with him as a pick, especially in the 3rd round but hoping for him to turn into a #1 seems to just be setting yourself up for disappointment.
hoping for any player to turn into a #1 anything is setting yourself up for disappointment but that's the draft. the odds are that deonte banks wont be a #1 corner, jms wont be an elite C, and hyatt wont be a #1 wr. getting 1 out of 3 would be a good outcome for the nyg.
if you cant navigate that there are inherent low probability odds of success then why even discuss draft picks before they play a game? evan neal may have been considered one of the safest draft picks the giants have made in my lifetime and by all metrics he was 1 of the worst RT in football last year.
I think teams are drafting more on ceiling than anything else at WR, so I was surprised he lasted.
The entire football world seems to agree great production, great hands, elite speed. I don't think it's complicated why he wasn't a round one player. At best it's going to take some time for him to establish he can do the table stakes stuff he wasn't asked to do in college. And there's an outside chance he can't do those things.
i dont think he would have needed to up his statistics proportionally, he already had a better year than flowers senior season. if he had just stayed healthy, not regressed in any major way, and showed some normal amount of progression he probably would have been a first round pick even with some statistical regression like addison.
he also could have gotten injured or not done those things. so dont confuse what im saying for a guarantee. there are no more guarantees with draft prospects than stock picks.
the point is his consensus ranking already supported a borderline first round talent. jeremiah had him as high as #23 and only as low as #42 in his top 50's. we know of 2 teams where it's come out publicly he was also graded in that range (raiders/giants). there's a pretty clear upside relative to where the nyg got him. he's a real deal sam beal.
Going out and roughly proving it again would have boded well for him. I think going out and having big YoY improvement like some of the guys you mentioned certainly would have boded well.
I imagine consistency is a pretty big factor in rating a player. But the Giants took a guy at 24 with one big time season, and didn't downgrade him for that. So my bet is there's more to it than that with Hyatt.
Quote:
In comment 16124709 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 16124698 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
Not sure why that can’t be discussed.
We don’t know if he can run the whole route tree effectively because he didn’t do it in college. We also don’t know if he can beat press coverage off the line because he never had to do it in college. There is a reason the guy was available in the 3rd round.
Nobody knows what the guys true capability is, but he is coming into the league with a lot more question marks than most guys who go on to become top receivers.
It’s a valid concern if, as I mentioned in the OP, people actually saw him play and deduced that he wasn’t a good “route-treer.” But my sense is that a bunch of the media just parrots what they’ve heard and didn’t actually watch him play or even noticed the “route tree.” If that is true, I learn nothing from them and that’s WHY I alluded to it in my OP..
I want to learn why he supposedly has a problem with it and not that he does without substance to the assertion.
So you want people to explain why he can't do something he has never done? The questions are there simply because he has never done it - or possibly never been asked to do it.
You can equate this with returning punts. Can Jalin Hyatt return punts? Nobody has seen anything to prove he can't, but would you just believe he can do it at a high level? It is an unknown. Running the full route tree at an NFL level is not easy. We'll all believe he can do it at a high level when there is evidence to suggest he can.
You’re missing the point. I am not discounting the import of the route tree. I just don’t want to hear opinions I can easily google. I want opinions from those people who have seen him play in real time. Not highlights, not YouTube, not general opinions. I want info from those who have watched Hyatt live either in person (preferable) or on TV..
If you have seen Hyatt play full games, I want to learn from you. Otherwise, I couldn’t care less what you have culled from media reports. I can do that myself.
I am not interested in the route tree per se, I am interested in Hyatt only as it pertains to it. Whether he’s run it or not, I want to hear from those who have seen him run it or have not seen him run it while watching him in real time.
That’s all I care about
I did misunderstand, Doc. I don't know how you are expecting to get opinions on how he runs route trees when he didn't really do it in college, but this is BBI so I am guessing you will get lots of strong opinions based on nothing.
Going out and roughly proving it again would have boded well for him. I think going out and having big YoY improvement like some of the guys you mentioned certainly would have boded well.
I imagine consistency is a pretty big factor in rating a player. But the Giants took a guy at 24 with one big time season, and didn't downgrade him for that. So my bet is there's more to it than that with Hyatt.
there are obvious tangible differences:
1. banks is a rarer athlete who played a position of greater need (for nyg). add 25 pounds to hyatt while losing no speed and he probably goes closer to where banks went. add 25 pounds to addison or zay flowers and those may be the guys the nyg are trying to trade up for instead of banks.
2. banks is a year older and played an extra year at maryland. he played in 11 games a freshman starting 8 in 2019, started the 2020 season was shortened to 5 games by covid, and got his full senior year after the injury as a junior. the giants specifically noted it:
you (and others) seem to be missing the point re hyatt's fall. it didn't happen for no reason but rather for reasons that may have been solved just by playing more games at UT and modest developments (like gaining the 5-10 pounds he's supposedly gained since the draft). it's great to get safer plug and play guys like jms too but on the flip side he's 24 and played more than everyone he's faced for the past several seasons so you could send him back to college as many years as you want he probably isn't changing much.
hyatt entered the draft early as a 1 hit wonder and the giants got a big discount on upside because of that. there is no guarantee any 3rd round pick will work out, this one obviously included, but normally you dont get guys with both that much explosiveness and production from the sec out of the top 50. that's why dabs was excited to pick him even at #57 if the bears took jms. the only few i can think of in the last half decade are aj brown, dk metcalf, and if you want to squint maybe you could count terrace marshall's covid shortened year and george pickens, though he was coming off a missed year for an acl and had some off the field stuff. wandale went #43 and i made a version of this same argument because he too had insane production in the sec though in his case the size risks were a lot more tangible.
I'm glad he only had the 1 big year! We wouldn't have gotten him in the 3rd rd if he stayed and had a similar Sr year! (obviously, we wouldn't have gotten him this year at all if he had stayed, but we wouldn't have in the 3rd in '24 either).
No one knows exactly what he's going to become, but I think it's very possible people are going to be asking someday "how did the Giants get Jalen Hyatt in the 3rd round?!" And the fact he came out as a Jr after only 1 big yr will be part of the answer.
I'm glad he'll be spending what could've been his Sr yr in college, instead learning the pro game and helping the Giants win beginning in '23 (he can finish his degree later, he might even appreciate it more).
i dont think they are going to be able to keep him off the field but his skill set can make an impact even in a very limited capacity. as many have said, his 1 trick is a very good trick.
sort of like christian watson (and not totally different from how wandale was tracking) last year i think early on we'll see him get worked in slowly with some shots but once he starts getting confident and playing fast the talent difference will be obvious. i think campbell and slayton are going to have a pretty tough time holding him off as the year progresses unless they step up beyond what they've been so far.
I think it's a factor in addition to him playing in a system that didn't demand many of skills required at the next level.
Jalin Hyatt appeared in 35 college games and logged 1305 snaps (~100 less than London did when he got drafted 7th).
Tae Banks appeared in 30 college games and logged 1492 snaps.
I think the Giants (and the league) had plenty of data to make an informed decision, and determined he was the 73rd most desirable player.
I don't think serious talent evaluators conclude a player has all the requisite skills to be a first round investment, but skip him 40 more times because he only had one big season.
100%, especially Slayton. Day one I think Hyatt can do everything Slayton can downfield but with better hands and ease with ball over his shoulder.
unless you have 32 team boards there's no way to do a forensic analysis of where he was rated. just like the nyg chose jms he may have been the fallback option on 10 different teams boards.
the draft is a multi-dimensional thing. it is possible teams high on him didn't have the need and teams that werent as high on him did. going into the draft he was the consensus WR4 or WR5, so the difference of where he went and where he was projected to go were the teams higher than expected on Jon Mingo, Tank Dell, Rashee Rice, and Jayden Reed because they all went ahead of their consensus ranks. also all seniors and i think all played in senior bowl. with mingo and dell i very much get it, i may have chosen either of them over hyatt too. it wasnt a great WR draft at the top but it did have solid depth (if you dont remember you can go back but before the draft my preference was defense round 1 and then WR round 2 or 3 for exactly that reason, just expected hyatt would be gone and it would be someone like dell or mingo).
But now we have the benefit of hindsight and reality. He was the 73rd selection. That's obviously a culmination of where he was graded by teams going in + how things played out over those two days. When it really came down to it, no matter who says what, no one valued him above 73. It's not like he was 35th pick.
Hypothetical -- Hyatt stays at Tennessee, Heupel mixes in more traditional NFL looks, Hyatt struggles in those sets, but puts up a strong statistical season. Does he go in round one?
But now we have the benefit of hindsight and reality. He was the 73rd selection. That's obviously a culmination of where he was graded by teams going in + how things played out over those two days. When it really came down to it, no matter who says what, no one valued him above 73. It's not like he was 35th pick.
Hypothetical -- Hyatt stays at Tennessee, Heupel mixes in more traditional NFL looks, Hyatt struggles in those sets, but puts up a strong statistical season. Does he go in round one?
not enough information to determine and i dont think heupel's offense matters a ton. if you told me 2022 addison w/ lincoln riley caleb willliams would put up half the yardage he did in 2021 and test as poorly as he did i wouldnt have believed you and he still went rd 1. it entirely depends on how the class stacks up relative to each other.
ill say this though if hyatt led the sec in yards/tds again id say lock first rounder. or just 1k/10 tds. i think the number of players who have done that are on less than 2 hands and prob all first rounders.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/conferences/sec/leaders/rec-yds-player-season.html - ( New Window )
exactly this if he stays fast, healthy, and keeps catching the ball.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/conferences/sec/leaders/rec-yds-player-season.html - ( New Window )
Quote:
that Hyatt probably isn’t best perceived as arguably the #1 WR in college football. But moreso as a prospect with some nice potential that was clearly worth drafting early in Rd 3 but still was the 10th overall WR taken as spoken by basically the entirety of GMs around the league.
i see the point you are trying to make here but it's just incorrect. there are a lot of college players who compile statistics and awards but dont project well to the pros because of a lack of athleticism and ron dayne's 4 years as one of the most decorated rbs in cfb history was a poster child for them.
hyatt is an explosive track athlete 1 year wonder early declaration, which is basically the exact opposite type of profile.
dayne was literally and figuratively on the opposite end of the scale. this is a comparison so stupid i cant believe it's taken this many replies to use the word the stupid.
Once again, the Dayne comment was made to simply reference his college-level award which I had hoped was the only reason you proclaimed Hyatt was the #1 WR in all of college football last season. Now that it is clear you truly believe this 3rd round pick and 10th WR drafted was, I understand your need to put this many replies on this thread to convince others.
If he put up another explosive 1K/10 season in the SEC, I think that puts hims squarely in the first round conversation for 2024. That would be hard to ignore, and would swing the risk/reward pendulum in his favor.
But I don't think any team this year calculated the only reason not to take him on round one is because he only had one big year.
Not when he had roughly the same number of snaps on film as the first WR drafted in 2022 Drake) and 600 more than the first WR taken in 2023 (Njiba-Smith, 867). Those guys got drafted on the backs of one big season, arguably less/equally impressive than Hyatt's.
I'm going with virtually all the draft pundits and anonymous scout evaluations on this one.
You can't ignore his explosiveness and hands, but you also can't ignore he wasn't asked to do a lot NFL table stakes stuff in his college system.
Quote:
In comment 16125272 nygiantfan said:
Quote:
that Hyatt probably isn’t best perceived as arguably the #1 WR in college football. But moreso as a prospect with some nice potential that was clearly worth drafting early in Rd 3 but still was the 10th overall WR taken as spoken by basically the entirety of GMs around the league.
i see the point you are trying to make here but it's just incorrect. there are a lot of college players who compile statistics and awards but dont project well to the pros because of a lack of athleticism and ron dayne's 4 years as one of the most decorated rbs in cfb history was a poster child for them.
hyatt is an explosive track athlete 1 year wonder early declaration, which is basically the exact opposite type of profile.
dayne was literally and figuratively on the opposite end of the scale. this is a comparison so stupid i cant believe it's taken this many replies to use the word the stupid.
Once again, the Dayne comment was made to simply reference his college-level award which I had hoped was the only reason you proclaimed Hyatt was the #1 WR in all of college football last season. Now that it is clear you truly believe this 3rd round pick and 10th WR drafted was, I understand your need to put this many replies on this thread to convince others.
you dont seem to understand how thoroughly i comprehend your argument from the beginning has been "you know who else once won a post season award while having literally nothing else in common"?
i cant believe i entered a jalin hyatt thread with a jalin hyatt opinion without considering ron dayne first.
just curious but on the field who do you think the best wr in cfb was last year? of course jsn was #1 for the 1 game he played since the nfl drafted him first, but beyond that?
If he put up another explosive 1K/10 season in the SEC, I think that puts hims squarely in the first round conversation for 2024. That would be hard to ignore, and would swing the risk/reward pendulum in his favor.
But I don't think any team this year calculated the only reason not to take him on round one is because he only had one big year.
Not when he had roughly the same number of snaps on film as the first WR drafted in 2022 Drake) and 600 more than the first WR taken in 2023 (Njiba-Smith, 867). Those guys got drafted on the backs of one big season, arguably less/equally impressive than Hyatt's.
I'm going with virtually all the draft pundits and anonymous scout evaluations on this one.
You can't ignore his explosiveness and hands, but you also can't ignore he wasn't asked to do a lot NFL table stakes stuff in his college system.
again it's never just 1 reason. you like to contort exaggerated straw men and this is one of them. there are significant holes in his game but in the context of this draft there were significant holes in every WR's game. that's why the nfl passed on all of them inside the top 20.
from #20-80 the nfl took 11. the order they came off the board was always going to depend on specific schemes and how the teams liked the players fit personality wise which is hard for any of us to judge, in terms of on the field though the talent gap was pretty flat. we know the giants visited with about half of that group and had hyatt standing out on their board with comfort to select him at pick #57 which is right in the middle of that group and not far off where his consensus rank was pre-draft, so clearly he passed their fit questions. we know at least 1 other team's board agreed with that assessment. the pick # he slid to is meaningless to the giants except for their good fortune because the options left at #89 were a clear tier down had they not been able to move up.
ok how about draft-eligible?
I'm very glad we got him in the 3rd, but I've got much higher expectations for him than I had for someone like Mario Manningham (late 3rd rd) or Rueben Randle (late 2nd).
Quote:
Would he have been a 2024 1st rounder? and why wasn't he a 2023 1st rounder? are slightly different, nuanced questions.
If he put up another explosive 1K/10 season in the SEC, I think that puts hims squarely in the first round conversation for 2024. That would be hard to ignore, and would swing the risk/reward pendulum in his favor.
But I don't think any team this year calculated the only reason not to take him on round one is because he only had one big year.
Not when he had roughly the same number of snaps on film as the first WR drafted in 2022 Drake) and 600 more than the first WR taken in 2023 (Njiba-Smith, 867). Those guys got drafted on the backs of one big season, arguably less/equally impressive than Hyatt's.
I'm going with virtually all the draft pundits and anonymous scout evaluations on this one.
You can't ignore his explosiveness and hands, but you also can't ignore he wasn't asked to do a lot NFL table stakes stuff in his college system.
again it's never just 1 reason. you like to contort exaggerated straw men and this is one of them. there are significant holes in his game but in the context of this draft there were significant holes in every WR's game. that's why the nfl passed on all of them inside the top 20.
There's no need to be insulting Eric, you have a bad habit of that and it makes debating otherwise interesting topics less enjoyable.
I agree with a large amount of what you've expressed.
I agree if he returned to school and had another good year his chances of being a first round choice would have increased.
I agree he was a great and surprising value on the third round.
I agree he's an exciting prospect despite some of the unanswered questions in his game.
I simply feel the biggest reason he was the 73rd most desirable player, and 10th most desirable WR -- was his lack of demonstrable table stakes qualities.
You're right, the league concluded all the WRs had significant questions. The league also concluded Hyatt had considerably more.
And I feel the system he played in produced that doubt.
This isn't an exotic observation. If that's a contortion or strawman to you, we can agree to disagree.
Quote:
In comment 16125582 christian said:
Quote:
Would he have been a 2024 1st rounder? and why wasn't he a 2023 1st rounder? are slightly different, nuanced questions.
If he put up another explosive 1K/10 season in the SEC, I think that puts hims squarely in the first round conversation for 2024. That would be hard to ignore, and would swing the risk/reward pendulum in his favor.
But I don't think any team this year calculated the only reason not to take him on round one is because he only had one big year.
Not when he had roughly the same number of snaps on film as the first WR drafted in 2022 Drake) and 600 more than the first WR taken in 2023 (Njiba-Smith, 867). Those guys got drafted on the backs of one big season, arguably less/equally impressive than Hyatt's.
I'm going with virtually all the draft pundits and anonymous scout evaluations on this one.
You can't ignore his explosiveness and hands, but you also can't ignore he wasn't asked to do a lot NFL table stakes stuff in his college system.
again it's never just 1 reason. you like to contort exaggerated straw men and this is one of them. there are significant holes in his game but in the context of this draft there were significant holes in every WR's game. that's why the nfl passed on all of them inside the top 20.
There's no need to be insulting Eric, you have a bad habit of that and it makes debating otherwise interesting topics less enjoyable.
I agree with a large amount of what you've expressed.
I agree if he returned to school and had another good year his chances of being a first round choice would have increased.
I agree he was a great and surprising value on the third round.
I agree he's an exciting prospect despite some of the unanswered questions in his game.
I simply feel the biggest reason he was the 73rd most desirable player, and 10th most desirable WR -- was his lack of demonstrable table stakes qualities.
You're right, the league concluded all the WRs had significant questions. The league also concluded Hyatt had considerably more.
And I feel the system he played in produced that doubt.
This isn't an exotic observation. If that's a contortion or strawman to you, we can agree to disagree.
the bold from the first post is the exaggeration that doesn't square with your more recent reply (the majority of which i agree with, exceptions being insulting and the phrase "considerably more" because we dont how close anyone's decisions were). the only argument in this thread worthy of insult was the ron dayne comp and i think my comments reflected that.
Quote:
.
ok how about draft-eligible?
Let's just go with Jalin Hyatt at this point so you aren't lonely when you die on this hill.
Quote:
In comment 16125582 christian said:
Quote:
Would he have been a 2024 1st rounder? and why wasn't he a 2023 1st rounder? are slightly different, nuanced questions.
If he put up another explosive 1K/10 season in the SEC, I think that puts hims squarely in the first round conversation for 2024. That would be hard to ignore, and would swing the risk/reward pendulum in his favor.
But I don't think any team this year calculated the only reason not to take him on round one is because he only had one big year.
Not when he had roughly the same number of snaps on film as the first WR drafted in 2022 Drake) and 600 more than the first WR taken in 2023 (Njiba-Smith, 867). Those guys got drafted on the backs of one big season, arguably less/equally impressive than Hyatt's.
I'm going with virtually all the draft pundits and anonymous scout evaluations on this one.
You can't ignore his explosiveness and hands, but you also can't ignore he wasn't asked to do a lot NFL table stakes stuff in his college system.
again it's never just 1 reason. you like to contort exaggerated straw men and this is one of them. there are significant holes in his game but in the context of this draft there were significant holes in every WR's game. that's why the nfl passed on all of them inside the top 20.
There's no need to be insulting Eric, you have a bad habit of that and it makes debating otherwise interesting topics less enjoyable.
I agree with a large amount of what you've expressed.
I agree if he returned to school and had another good year his chances of being a first round choice would have increased.
I agree he was a great and surprising value on the third round.
I agree he's an exciting prospect despite some of the unanswered questions in his game.
I simply feel the biggest reason he was the 73rd most desirable player, and 10th most desirable WR -- was his lack of demonstrable table stakes qualities.
You're right, the league concluded all the WRs had significant questions. The league also concluded Hyatt had considerably more.
And I feel the system he played in produced that doubt.
This isn't an exotic observation. If that's a contortion or strawman to you, we can agree to disagree.
You're right, the league concluded all the WRs had significant questions. The league also concluded Hyatt had considerably more.
CONSIDERABLY MORE?
Quote:
In comment 16125623 nygiantfan said:
Quote:
.
ok how about draft-eligible?
Let's just go with Jalin Hyatt at this point so you aren't lonely when you die on this hill.
this may be a shock to you but i am not 1 of the 630 Biletnikoff voters.
CONSIDERABLY MORE?
Of course. Nine teams who were in the market for a WR concluded a different WR was the right answer. Four teams who prioritized WR in round one concluded a different WR was the right answer.
The league went around the room 2+ plus times, and nearly a quarter of the teams picked someone else to do what he does.
Quote:
In comment 16125645 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16125623 nygiantfan said:
Quote:
.
ok how about draft-eligible?
Let's just go with Jalin Hyatt at this point so you aren't lonely when you die on this hill.
this may be a shock to you but i am not 1 of the 630 Biletnikoff voters.
Apparently neither are the 32 GMs of the National Football League
We're not talking about a guy who slipped to the 2nd and was the 5th WR taken. We're talking about a guy who slipped to the 3rd and was 10th WR taken.
Maybe selection slot isn't a proxy for confidence in success. I believe in the democracy of outcomes, so I strongly believe it.
The league valued 50+ players between the first batch of WRs taken on round one, and where Hyatt was taken. Including another 5 WRs.
Thats seems crystal clear to me the league had considerably more questions with Hyatt than it did with the first group taken on round one.
Hyatt doesn't have less speed than those taken before him. He doesn't have worse hands than those taken before him. In many of the comparisons, Hyatt doesn't have worse size than those taken before him. He doesn't have lesser stats from this past season than those taken before him.
And yet, as Christian noted, Hyatt was taken behind nine other players at his position. It wasn't for lack of first-round prospects, either - there were four taken in the opening stanza. And while that's fewer than 2022 and 2021 (both had six), it's more than 2020 and 2019 (both had two).
So NFL GMs weren't taking fewer WRs - the appetite for the position didn't decline versus years prior. But they did let Hyatt slip past them for 72 selections. Something had to be the reason for that. What is the reason? Whatever questions they had about his game translating to the NFL (or the learning curve that it would take for that translation to occur), presumably. But if NFL GMs were taking smaller, slower, less statistically-prolific WRs before Hyatt, wouldn't that suggest considerably more questions about Hyatt himself?
I'm thrilled that the Giants got him, and I really don't concern myself with other teams' draft boards but for the fact that the interplay between their boards and Schoen's have an impact on who JS can choose with each pick. But I think it's silly to suggest that there weren't considerably more questions about Hyatt coming from somewhere; otherwise, wouldn't he have been chosen sooner than some of the other players at his own position?
It's almost like some here will be SHOCKED if Hyatt turns out to be as good or better than some of the 9 WRs picked before him. That NEVER happens!
(and if JMS, a pretty desperately needed C, wasn't available at #57, there would've only been 7 WRs taken before Hyatt, because we know for a fact the Giants would've taken him there)
He was one my favorite players in the draft, and I personally believe he will have a very similar season to rookie Darius Slayton numbers.
Is that what's happening in this discussion? Or are you sensationalizing the conversation right now so that you can prop up a strawman later on?
Quote:
In comment 16125728 nygiantfan said:
Quote:
In comment 16125645 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16125623 nygiantfan said:
Quote:
.
ok how about draft-eligible?
Let's just go with Jalin Hyatt at this point so you aren't lonely when you die on this hill.
this may be a shock to you but i am not 1 of the 630 Biletnikoff voters.
Apparently neither are the 32 GMs of the National Football League
24/32 didn't take any wide receiver ahead of hyatt. maybe they just had other needs like vegas? 2 gms didn't even have any picks in the top 72.
of the 8 gms who took wide receivers ahead of hyatt, 4 had already filled their wr need before pick #24. addison has his own biletnikoff and jsn's 2021 was more productive than anyone in either of the last 2 drafts, including his teammate who went top 10 and won roy last year. nobody that i've seen has argued that there weren't good reasons for those choices.
you are placing an awful lot of meaning on the decisions of the 4 gms who chose different wrs than hyatt in round 2. especially given that unlike most situations where we don't know what's coachspeak and what isnt we have video of the giants with hyatt as the potential selection at #57 which would have been ahead of at least 2 of the guys who got picked ahead of him. but hey, much better than your ron dayne argument so progress.
He was one my favorite players in the draft, and I personally believe he will have a very similar season to rookie Darius Slayton numbers.
from 2009-2019 almost half of the 1st overall selections ended up not getting or not playing their second contracts with the teams that drafted them. so this whole discussion is against the backdrop that liking any draft pick is generally low probability, including when the gms have their choice of literally anyone in the entire draft.
all of these players have weaknesses that will need to be overcome, all of them are projections, and every single gm in the history of the nfl draft has gotten more picks wrong than right.
i think there's a lot of over-weighting minor inflections in selection # in this discussion, the exact same over-weighting that could have been done with:
2019 WR9/10/11 dk metcalf, diontae johnson, terry mclaurin,
2020 WR5/7/8 justin jefferson, tee higgins, michael pittman
2021 WR17 amon-ra st brown
2022 WR7/WR11 christian watson, george pickens
this specific mistake is one that literally happens every year and the question this thread asked was whether or not hyatt can be that mistake this year.
i think the answer can be an obvious yes and our collective excitement justified without all the probabilistic cold water. dont let ron dayne stop you from buying a hyatt jersey.
I think worries about press coverage and his weight are overrated. I do think he needs to keep hitting the weights to add strength in his lower half..their were yac opportunities in his videos where if he had kept his balance just broke an arm tackle there’s chance for huge gains. I think he will though. If you read enough on him, there’s a few articles where they mention that early on in his career he was reluctant to put on weight because he was worried it would impact his speed. For those complaining about his weight/frame realize he was playing his freshman year under 160lbs. I think it’s only in the last year or maybe slightly more that he bought in and really focused on the weight room and obviously it didn’t impact his speed in a negative manner..quite the opposite(the tape doesn’t lie..it’s legitimate elite downfield speed).
And Jackson wasn't drafted until mid round 2...
I still say it's more how dedicated these kids are to their craft that makes the difference at this level. A guy drafted in rounds 1-2-3 is obviously talented enough. He's got the specs. Question is does he have the mental specs and is he bat shit crazy enough to last in the NFL.
Hyatt has all the talent in the world. All these kids do. Many fail simply because they aren't as mentally dedicated as others are and once the lights turn on they get exposed.
Hyatt can run any route needed. Question is will he know which route to run, when to run it and be crazy enough to catch the ball, get up and do it again and again and again.
Quote:
It's almost like some here will be SHOCKED if Hyatt turns out to be as good or better than some of the 9 WRs picked before him. That NEVER happens!
Is that what's happening in this discussion? Or are you sensationalizing the conversation right now so that you can prop up a strawman later on?
yes, exactly. I AM sensationalizing the conversation right now so that I can prop up a strawman later on!
You got me! (if only I could remember where I propped up my strawman). Drat!
Ha ha. Actually I don't even know WTF that means.
It just seems like some posters aren't high on Hyatt partly because he was the 10th WR taken; he was taken in the 3rd round, etc. because route tree blah blah and his Biletnikoff award might be akin to Dayne's Heisman and therefore he's unlikely to become a #1 WR... Maybe I'm just seeing things.
Quote:
In comment 16125740 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16125728 nygiantfan said:
Quote:
In comment 16125645 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16125623 nygiantfan said:
Quote:
.
ok how about draft-eligible?
Let's just go with Jalin Hyatt at this point so you aren't lonely when you die on this hill.
this may be a shock to you but i am not 1 of the 630 Biletnikoff voters.
Apparently neither are the 32 GMs of the National Football League
24/32 didn't take any wide receiver ahead of hyatt. maybe they just had other needs like vegas? 2 gms didn't even have any picks in the top 72.
of the 8 gms who took wide receivers ahead of hyatt, 4 had already filled their wr need before pick #24. addison has his own biletnikoff and jsn's 2021 was more productive than anyone in either of the last 2 drafts, including his teammate who went top 10 and won roy last year. nobody that i've seen has argued that there weren't good reasons for those choices.
you are placing an awful lot of meaning on the decisions of the 4 gms who chose different wrs than hyatt in round 2. especially given that unlike most situations where we don't know what's coachspeak and what isnt we have video of the giants with hyatt as the potential selection at #57 which would have been ahead of at least 2 of the guys who got picked ahead of him. but hey, much better than your ron dayne argument so progress.
Not really. I am placing an awful lot of meaning on the decisions of every GM who decided against drafting "the #1 receiver in all CFB last year"(your words) basically all the way thru to pick #72 for other choices.
Being the #1 WR, Hyatt most certainly should have gone ahead of the 4 WRs selected in Round 1. And maybe even sooner than 20th pick (where Seattle chose Jaxon Smith-Njigba) since the real #1 WR should have had a higher draft grade and maybe could have trumped some of the other positional players drafted in the 11th-19th spots.
But to imagine the #1 WR in all of CFB was just sitting there for the taking while Round 1 was completed, Round 2 was completed and 9 more picks went off the board in Round 3 before our GM Joe Schoen decided to take action? So all those other teams either improperly rated 9 other WRs over Hyatt, had their WR needs already filled or simply wouldn't even consider seizing the opportunity to grab the #1 WR in all of CFB as an upgrade to an existing WR on their roster versus another positional player they took instead? Maybe it's a function that the 10th CB taken, 7th DE taken, 7th DT/NT taken, 6th TE taken and 4th Guard taken all simply had higher draft grades than the #1 WR in all of CFB?
That's a hell of a Draft.
And Ron Dayne won the award that literally goes to the most outstanding player in college football. Remember?
And no one needs to imagine how fun your current handle is if this thread is any example.
Quote:
In comment 16125829 Dr. D said:
Quote:
It's almost like some here will be SHOCKED if Hyatt turns out to be as good or better than some of the 9 WRs picked before him. That NEVER happens!
Is that what's happening in this discussion? Or are you sensationalizing the conversation right now so that you can prop up a strawman later on?
yes, exactly. I AM sensationalizing the conversation right now so that I can prop up a strawman later on!
You got me! (if only I could remember where I propped up my strawman). Drat!
Ha ha. Actually I don't even know WTF that means.
It just seems like some posters aren't high on Hyatt partly because he was the 10th WR taken; he was taken in the 3rd round, etc. because route tree blah blah and his Biletnikoff award might be akin to Dayne's Heisman and therefore he's unlikely to become a #1 WR... Maybe I'm just seeing things.
I think you're taking analogies literally and then you yourself are the only one drawing the inference that anyone here "will be SHOCKED if Hyatt turns out to be as good or better than some of the 9 WRs picked before him."
Saying that college awards are a poor predictor of NFL success is a valid point, IMO. Using Dayne as an example of that is relevant, since he was also drafted by the Giants. But the example could have been Andre Ware or Danny Wuerffel instead and the point itself would be no less valid.
Saying that the 10th WR taken implicitly has more unanswered questions about him than the 1st WR taken (or any of those in between #1 and #10, for that matter) doesn't seem like a particularly controversial take - after all, if Hyatt didn't have those questions about him, why would he have been the 10th WR taken, especially with the Biletnikoff Award on his resume?
Pointing out the general hit/miss rate for the 3rd round doesn't strike me as unfair since Hyatt was, in fact, chosen in the 3rd round and will contribute to that exact hit/miss rate going forward however he turns out.
So when you take those things and turn them into this:
Yes, I'd say that you are indeed seeing things, if your intent was not to sensationalize the tone and content of the thread.
Quote:
i can only imagine how fun your old handle must have been.
And Ron Dayne won the award that literally goes to the most outstanding player in college football. Remember?
And no one needs to imagine how fun your current handle is if this thread is any example.
ron dayne ran for 2k yards and 20 tds his senior year and that wasnt even his best year at wisconsin. he was an outstanding college football player regardless of being too fat and slow to be a good nfl player.
maybe you should give yourself a sabbatical on draft threads until your ron dayne trauma passes?
Saying that college awards are a poor predictor of NFL success is a valid point, IMO. Using Dayne as an example of that is relevant, since he was also drafted by the Giants. But the example could have been Andre Ware or Danny Wuerffel instead and the point itself would be no less valid.
what's the hit rate on the last 10 biletnikoffs? how about the last 5 from the sec? amari cooper, jeudy, chase, devonta smith seems like a pretty solid continuum for any sec wr to add his name to. 2/4 made the pro bowl as rookies, 1 won roy.
how about the last 10 heisman? caleb williams, bryce young, devonta smith, joe burrow, kyler, baker, lamar, derrick henry have them on a 7 in a row hit streak with likely 5 first overall picks by this time next year. jameis may have tanked as a pro but he makes it 6 of the last 10 heisman winners going 1st overall with the ones who didn't being mariota (#2 overall), lamar, henry, and devonta smith. 2/10 won ROY. 6/8 that have debuted made pro bowls or all pro.
there are lots of reasons guys dont work out in the pros. more first round picks dont get second contracts with the team that drafts them than vice versa. but it seems to me that the last decade of college awards has actually been very well correlated with the nfl.
in the proliferated spread era and new rules cba which encompasses the more recent half of those last 10 years we've seen more qbs and wrs successfully step in from cfb to pros than any other prior era. so sorry but andre ware and danny wuerffel are just as bad comparisons to hyatt as ron dayne. you and your dupe friend should shift to corey coleman, that's at least a legitimate comparison but if you want to save time you could also just read my earlier response to christian about the b12.
Quote:
In comment 16125946 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
i can only imagine how fun your old handle must have been.
And Ron Dayne won the award that literally goes to the most outstanding player in college football. Remember?
And no one needs to imagine how fun your current handle is if this thread is any example.
ron dayne ran for 2k yards and 20 tds his senior year and that wasnt even his best year at wisconsin. he was an outstanding college football player regardless of being too fat and slow to be a good nfl player.
maybe you should give yourself a sabbatical on draft threads until your ron dayne trauma passes?
Again, the Ron Dayne reference is for those weighing the college-level award more than the actual scouting results.
Hyatt should be a nice asset for the Giants roster. And while he cost two middle rounds picks to obtain, getting him at #73 sure feels like a good catch. Hopefully he turns into exactly what you expect from him, the best WR available from this draft.
In comment 16126115 Eric on Li said:
If that alone was an airtight predictor, why was Hyatt the 10th WR chosen, and not even the first from the SEC? Which of those guys you listed made it to the 3rd round of their respective drafts?
how about the last 10 heisman? caleb williams, bryce young, devonta smith, joe burrow, kyler, baker, lamar, derrick henry have them on a 7 in a row hit streak with likely 5 first overall picks by this time next year. jameis may have tanked as a pro but he makes it 6 of the last 10 heisman winners going 1st overall with the ones who didn't being mariota (#2 overall), lamar, henry, and devonta smith. 2/10 won ROY. 6/8 that have debuted made pro bowls or all pro.
Hyatt didn't win the Heisman. Is this meant to indicate that the era in which Dayne won the Heisman was fundamentally less sophisticated than today? Or that the college game translates to the NFL more seamlessly? If that's the case, it seems odd that one of the things that supposedly dragged Hyatt's draft stock down somewhat was the translation of his offensive scheme to the NFL.
there are lots of reasons guys dont work out in the pros. more first round picks dont get second contracts with the team that drafts them than vice versa. but it seems to me that the last decade of college awards has actually been very well correlated with the nfl.
Again, why did this not apply to Hyatt in the draft then? The awards are public. The scouts and GMs know who won them. If they are a strong predictor of NFL success, it would be foolish to pass on any player who wins those awards, especially to take a player at the same position who didn't win those awards. Somehow, in spite of his Biletnikoff Award, Hyatt fell to the 3rd round and was the 10th WR taken.
in the proliferated spread era and new rules cba which encompasses the more recent half of those last 10 years we've seen more qbs and wrs successfully step in from cfb to pros than any other prior era. so sorry but andre ware and danny wuerffel are just as bad comparisons to hyatt as ron dayne. you and your dupe friend should shift to corey coleman, that's at least a legitimate comparison but if you want to save time you could also just read my earlier response to christian about the b12.
You may be 100% correct. But it's also accurate to point out that NFL GMs disagree with you or else Hyatt would have been drafted higher - they, as a group, tend to have very strong opinions about the traits that predict NFL success, and their draft choices reflect that. I'll leave your little ad hominem attack aside, at least until you decide to buy a keyboard with a shift key.
Quote:
In comment 16126015 nygiantfan said:
Quote:
In comment 16125946 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
i can only imagine how fun your old handle must have been.
And Ron Dayne won the award that literally goes to the most outstanding player in college football. Remember?
And no one needs to imagine how fun your current handle is if this thread is any example.
ron dayne ran for 2k yards and 20 tds his senior year and that wasnt even his best year at wisconsin. he was an outstanding college football player regardless of being too fat and slow to be a good nfl player.
maybe you should give yourself a sabbatical on draft threads until your ron dayne trauma passes?
Again, the Ron Dayne reference is for those weighing the college-level award more than the actual scouting results.
Hyatt should be a nice asset for the Giants roster. And while he cost two middle rounds picks to obtain, getting him at #73 sure feels like a good catch. Hopefully he turns into exactly what you expect from him, the best WR available from this draft.
it seems we've reached the point of the discussion where you realize your old argument was bad enough you need to make one up. show me where i said he was the best WR available in this draft?
actually let me save you time and ill just repost the initial comment i made which you found to be screaming for some ron dayne, and then we can just agree to go our separate ways until your next handle?
In comment 16124873 Eric on Li said:
rookies dont work out for a variety of reasons but the truth is nobody knows whether or not any of them will work out from the first pick to the last. brock purdy was literally mr irrelevant the year after zach wilson went #2 and his own team traded a haul to move up to #3 for trey lance.
there's of course a difference in the talent level of earlier and later picks but that's why hyatt is exciting because his pure talent level for a 3rd rounder is about as high as it gets. he is an explosive talent. no other player has put up more than 3 tds against a nick saban defense, even the ones who run a full route tree.
there are no air tight predictors in the nfl draft. 0. that's a strawman. he was the 2nd WR taken from the SEC behind Mingo, who i too may have taken over hyatt because he has a more pro level body type with almost as much explosiveness. reread all my posts with christian if you'd like to see why i think the league was softer on hyatt than expected, but the main differences i see are that he was a true 1 year wonder where the others weren't and accordingly did have a less diversified skill set on tape - especially if the comp set is jeudy, cooper, chase, devonta.
2a . Hyatt didn't win the Heisman. Is this meant to indicate that the era in which Dayne won the Heisman was fundamentally less sophisticated than today? Or that the college game translates to the NFL more seamlessly?
yes to both questions (the latter specifically being as obvious reality).
2b. If that's the case, it seems odd that one of the things that supposedly dragged Hyatt's draft stock down somewhat was the translation of his offensive scheme to the NFL.
we are in agreement on this. that's why i think the bigger factor was that the 5th, 6th, 7th wide receivers off the board who went ahead of hyatt despite being generally ranked lower by consensus pre-draft were seniors. like i said with mingo (and accordingly the 4 first rounders who were ranked higher than hyatt by consensus) i absolutely get it - he too is an explosive SEC receiver. I may have taken him over hyatt too. though for what the giants need (big plays) hyatt's skill set is a very good fit so the big play upside may have been worth it over mingo.
3. Again, why did this not apply to Hyatt in the draft then? The awards are public. The scouts and GMs know who won them. If they are a strong predictor of NFL success, it would be foolish to pass on any player who wins those awards, especially to take a player at the same position who didn't win those awards. Somehow, in spite of his Biletnikoff Award, Hyatt fell to the 3rd round and was the 10th WR taken.
why did AJB fall to the 2nd round?
why did dk metcalf fall to the last pick in the 2nd round?
why was justin jefferson the 5th wr taken and why did howie roseman take jalen reagar over him?
why was george pickens wr11 last year?
some players just fall through cracks. awards ARENT an end all be all. Corey Coleman did also win the biletnikoff with a very similar skill set as hyatt. teams evaluate the players in front of them relative to each other and make choices. hyatt's entire "fall" was 3 of them choosing other players that i probably wouldn't have chosen. we dont know if those were close calls for those teams or why they chose who they did, just that they made the decisions.
from my first post to this one my entire argument has been that hyatt's upside having done what he did in the sec relative to where he got selected was a huge value awards or not - which apparently the giants agreed with because they aggressively moved up for him because "he was sticking out like a sore thumb". it was the same reason i thought the robinson pick was justified last year even though the initial reactions were that it was a reach. producing in the sec, especially in games against bama/uga because those are basically NFL defenses, is something i think is very meaningful.
I'm hanging in there. There are still some moments where it gets me (one of my brothers had a hip replacement this week and, being at the top of the phone tree from my SIL, I went to call my dad to let him know that the surgery went well), but I've finally been able to let the grief itself go.
I always appreciate you checking in on me, Fiddy - thanks.
it seems we've reached the point of the discussion where you realize your old argument was bad enough you need to make one up. show me where i said he was the best WR available in this draft?
In comment 16124873 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
the guy was arguably the #1 receiver in all CFB last year of course he can be a #1 receiver in the nfl (whatver way you want to quantify it).
You said Hyatt was the best receiver in all of CFB last year, and he was also available in this past draft. By default, doesn't that make him the best WR available in this draft per you?
there are no air tight predictors in the nfl draft. 0. that's a strawman. he was the 2nd WR taken from the SEC behind Mingo, who i too may have taken over hyatt because he has a more pro level body type with almost as much explosiveness. reread all my posts with christian if you'd like to see why i think the league was softer on hyatt than expected, but the main differences i see are that he was a true 1 year wonder where the others weren't and accordingly did have a less diversified skill set on tape - especially if the comp set is jeudy, cooper, chase, devonta.
2a . Hyatt didn't win the Heisman. Is this meant to indicate that the era in which Dayne won the Heisman was fundamentally less sophisticated than today? Or that the college game translates to the NFL more seamlessly?
yes to both questions (the latter specifically being as obvious reality).
2b. If that's the case, it seems odd that one of the things that supposedly dragged Hyatt's draft stock down somewhat was the translation of his offensive scheme to the NFL.
we are in agreement on this. that's why i think the bigger factor was that the 5th, 6th, 7th wide receivers off the board who went ahead of hyatt despite being generally ranked lower by consensus pre-draft were seniors. like i said with mingo (and accordingly the 4 first rounders who were ranked higher than hyatt by consensus) i absolutely get it - he too is an explosive SEC receiver. I may have taken him over hyatt too. though for what the giants need (big plays) hyatt's skill set is a very good fit so the big play upside may have been worth it over mingo.
3. Again, why did this not apply to Hyatt in the draft then? The awards are public. The scouts and GMs know who won them. If they are a strong predictor of NFL success, it would be foolish to pass on any player who wins those awards, especially to take a player at the same position who didn't win those awards. Somehow, in spite of his Biletnikoff Award, Hyatt fell to the 3rd round and was the 10th WR taken.
why did AJB fall to the 2nd round?
why did dk metcalf fall to the last pick in the 2nd round?
why was justin jefferson the 5th wr taken and why did howie roseman take jalen reagar over him?
why was george pickens wr11 last year?
some players just fall through cracks. awards ARENT an end all be all. Corey Coleman did also win the biletnikoff with a very similar skill set as hyatt. teams evaluate the players in front of them relative to each other and make choices. hyatt's entire "fall" was 3 of them choosing other players that i probably wouldn't have chosen. we dont know if those were close calls for those teams or why they chose who they did, just that they made the decisions.
from my first post to this one my entire argument has been that hyatt's upside having done what he did in the sec relative to where he got selected was a huge value awards or not - which apparently the giants agreed with because they aggressively moved up for him because "he was sticking out like a sore thumb". it was the same reason i thought the robinson pick was justified last year even though the initial reactions were that it was a reach. producing in the sec, especially in games against bama/uga because those are basically NFL defenses, is something i think is very meaningful.
I actually agree with almost everything you've said. But I think you might not realize how frequently on this thread it has come across that you're clinging to the SEC/Biletnikoff as the key predictor that outranks all others.
I'm thrilled that the Giants were able to add Hyatt. I would have understood it if he had been a target even at #25OA, would have been happy at #57OA, and I think the Giants got a steal at #73OA. I just also realize that there are factors that NFL decision-makers obviously think represent a risk as it relates to Hyatt's game translating to the NFL, or else he should have been drafted earlier.
Yes, players do fall through the cracks, but my gut is that the opposite tends to be true when it comes to players who win the major collegiate awards. So when one of them does slide, and it's not for an obvious reason like triangle numbers or level of competition, I can't help but have slightly more reservation about the player. Simply, what do the scouts and GMs think they know that I'm not seeing? Because Hyatt shouldn't have been a 3rd round pick for all the reasons you've detailed. But he was.
Quote:
Last week marked 22 years since my Dad passed and I still “reach for the phone.”
I'm hanging in there. There are still some moments where it gets me (one of my brothers had a hip replacement this week and, being at the top of the phone tree from my SIL, I went to call my dad to let him know that the surgery went well), but I've finally been able to let the grief itself go.
I always appreciate you checking in on me, Fiddy - thanks.
Of course..The only thing that really changes is the acute pain. That subsides, but the pain of knowing that so much of who I became is because of his love and guidance, always remains
Quote:
it seems we've reached the point of the discussion where you realize your old argument was bad enough you need to make one up. show me where i said he was the best WR available in this draft?
In comment 16124873 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
the guy was arguably the #1 receiver in all CFB last year of course he can be a #1 receiver in the nfl (whatver way you want to quantify it).
You said Hyatt was the best receiver in all of CFB last year, and he was also available in this past draft. By default, doesn't that make him the best WR available in this draft per you?
inferring something i didnt say "by default" is a comprehension issue on your end.
in terms you might better understand ron dayne was probably my least draft pick of the last 25 years.
I actually agree with almost everything you've said. But I think you might not realize how frequently on this thread it has come across that you're clinging to the SEC/Biletnikoff as the key predictor that outranks all others.
I'm thrilled that the Giants were able to add Hyatt. I would have understood it if he had been a target even at #25OA, would have been happy at #57OA, and I think the Giants got a steal at #73OA. I just also realize that there are factors that NFL decision-makers obviously think represent a risk as it relates to Hyatt's game translating to the NFL, or else he should have been drafted earlier.
Yes, players do fall through the cracks, but my gut is that the opposite tends to be true when it comes to players who win the major collegiate awards. So when one of them does slide, and it's not for an obvious reason like triangle numbers or level of competition, I can't help but have slightly more reservation about the player. Simply, what do the scouts and GMs think they know that I'm not seeing? Because Hyatt shouldn't have been a 3rd round pick for all the reasons you've detailed. But he was.
the biletnikoff stuff came up over and over again because the dupe found it objectionable that i called hyatt "arguably the best wr in CFB last year". go back and read the initial back and forth before I realized he was a dupe, he brought up the biletnikoff specifically and negatively correlated awards as a predictor of success bc of ron dayne.
i've not in a single post said there weren't risks with hyatt because there are risks with every single player in the nfl draft every single year. evan neal was one of the safest picks the nyg have ever made and he had an awful rookie year. that is the nature of the draft.
the part of your reply that i bolded is something i find interesting because while i agree with you intuitively, i think there is also a sort of a negative rebound effect that happens when something appears too obvious - kind of like when DK Metcalf did what he did in the SEC and at the combine and yet somehow still got drafted behind Andy Isabella (and 8 others). when players who get a lot of attention but also have glaring resume gaps, there's a rebound effect where the narrative gets overstated. it's arguable that the same thing happened to lamar jackson. good reasons why those guys weren't top 10 picks, but they fell way farther than they should have. people question things that they dont understand and i do think it's a little hard to understand how a guy who didnt play much for 2 years came out of nowhere to make alabama look like a pop warner defense basically running only go routes and crossers.
the giants similarly selected a 1 year wonder who was hard to understand last year because he was 5'7 with short arms, yet he too led the sec in receiving. where most saw "gadget" the giants saw more than that with wandale and up until he got hurt it looked like the giants were correct to see more. this regime's enthusiasm for hyatt and their track record with both SEC receivers and receivers who played for Josh Heupel (Gabe Davis) gives me some confidence that some of the risks associated with hyatt are overstated.
You have the Bama (who had lots of issues last season) game with 6/209/5TD's and then four blowout wins where he goes for well over 100 yards against UT Martin, Missouri, Kentucky (down year) and Akron.
Georgia and South Carolina beat Tenn. easily and he had middling stats in those games as he did against the rest of the schedule.
Perhaps if the Georgia game was another standout game or if they had played in the CFP and he shined in that one his profile would have been raised.
Between the system and not a very big body of work it seems fair he fell. The Bama game was also early in the season.
Quote:
In comment 16126134 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
it seems we've reached the point of the discussion where you realize your old argument was bad enough you need to make one up. show me where i said he was the best WR available in this draft?
In comment 16124873 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
the guy was arguably the #1 receiver in all CFB last year of course he can be a #1 receiver in the nfl (whatver way you want to quantify it).
You said Hyatt was the best receiver in all of CFB last year, and he was also available in this past draft. By default, doesn't that make him the best WR available in this draft per you?
inferring something i didnt say "by default" is a comprehension issue on your end.
Why is this such a disputed inference?
You said Hyatt was the #1 CFB receiver. That makes him the top receiver whether he's coming out for the draft or not. He did as a matter of simple fact make himself eligible for the draft therefore he should be your #1 receiver in the draft.