Hard to tell for sure with the camera angle from behind, but the catcher did realize it was a dropped 3rd strike and went to tag the batter just in case - and I can't see how he would have missed the tag from so close (especially judging from his reaction to start celebrating).
Hard to tell for sure with the camera angle from behind, but the catcher did realize it was a dropped 3rd strike and went to tag the batter just in case - and I can't see how he would have missed the tag from so close (especially judging from his reaction to start celebrating).
The catcher looked back at the ump and the ump gave the safe call. Not sure how you can blame the ump.
Also if the tag was good it's a straight up blown call. But I admit it is ultimately impossible to tell from the camera angle.
Just seems odd that if the catcher knew it was a dropped third strike and knew to go for the tag, that if he missed it he wouldn't attempt a throw to 1st base
that the catcher didn't even come close to tagging the batter.
I thought the same. He made a half hearted effort to tag him and then just gave up. He seemed to just follow teammates starting to celebrate instead of paying attention to the umpire. And, he knows he didn't tag the batter.
I'm thinking first base to indicate guy on first so batter can't reach base safely. Oops, with two out, yes he can. Still it's bizarre to see him look right at the ump giving the safe sign and then start celebrating.
One of the hardest, for whatever reason, for players to remember.
The easiest application is when there are two out; as others have said, then it's always applicable.
Many catchers just always tag the batter, if that's an option, no matter what the situation.
This catcher didn't, at least with conviction.
What a terrible way to lose an important game!
Catchers fault. Catchers are taught (suppose to be) dropped third strike or if it hits dirt PRI to catching the ball, step towards the mound and throw to first.
In comment 16124600 Gman11 said:
Quote:
that the catcher didn't even come close to tagging the batter./////////
I thought the same. He made a half hearted effort to tag him and then just gave up. He seemed to just follow teammates starting to celebrate instead of paying attention to the umpire. And, he knows he didn't tag the batter.
From the (camera) angle we have, I just don't see how that can be concluded with any certainty. Did he tag him? No idea. But what was also strange was that the home plate umpire seems to ignore the Palmyra runners crossing home plate, as if they don't count? Home plate umps always scrutinize players to make sure they touch home plate while the ball is in play to count the run. He was ignoring them. I think he zoned out from the get go from the dropped 3rd strike.
In comment 16124600 Gman11 said:
Quote:
that the catcher didn't even come close to tagging the batter./////////
I thought the same. He made a half hearted effort to tag him and then just gave up. He seemed to just follow teammates starting to celebrate instead of paying attention to the umpire. And, he knows he didn't tag the batter.
From the (camera) angle we have, I just don't see how that can be concluded with any certainty. Did he tag him? No idea. But what was also strange was that the home plate umpire seems to ignore the Palmyra runners crossing home plate, as if they don't count? Home plate umps always scrutinize players to make sure they touch home plate while the ball is in play to count the run. He was ignoring them. I think he zoned out from the get go from the dropped 3rd strike.
I didn't notice him after the celebration started, but he didn't zone out before. He watched the C and signaled safe after the tag attempt.
but it was karma for Hornell. We played a playoff game there and the home plate umpire was a Hornell grad. He called 20 consecutive balls to start the game and we were losing 7-0 at the end of the 1st inning. We lost 18-7 with Hornell having 3 hits. Our pitcher was undefeated on the season and had already thrown a no-hitter against Hornell. We protested the game and in the aftermath found out that not only was the ump a Hornell grad, his nephew was the starting CF.
We took them off the schedule the following season and for several afterwards.
but it was karma for Hornell. We played a playoff game there and the home plate umpire was a Hornell grad. He called 20 consecutive balls to start the game and we were losing 7-0 at the end of the 1st inning. We lost 18-7 with Hornell having 3 hits. Our pitcher was undefeated on the season and had already thrown a no-hitter against Hornell. We protested the game and in the aftermath found out that not only was the ump a Hornell grad, his nephew was the starting CF.
We took them off the schedule the following season and for several afterwards.
haha - great story.
As to the video, it's all on the catcher IMO. If you drop the third strike, immediately tag the batter and, if there's any doubt, throw down to first.
I didn't notice him after the celebration started, but he didn't zone out before. He watched the C and signaled safe after the tag attempt.
Matt, if you re-watch, the home plate ump has his attention/eyes turned toward the pitcher's mound and the Hornell celebration; he completely ignores the Palmyra runners circling the bases and touching home plate, where his eyes should be focused as the home plate ump. He watched the C, but his 'safe' signal was weak (and tentative, one could say). As Del says, it's on the catcher to complete the play if there was any doubt that he tagged the batter. I guess in his mind he had--but ignored the ump's signal. As a game CONTINUING PLAY, the ump has to make that a BIG signal, visual and audible.
I didn't notice him after the celebration started, but he didn't zone out before. He watched the C and signaled safe after the tag attempt.
Matt, if you re-watch, the home plate ump has his attention/eyes turned toward the pitcher's mound and the Hornell celebration; he completely ignores the Palmyra runners circling the bases and touching home plate, where his eyes should be focused as the home plate ump. He watched the C, but his 'safe' signal was weak (and tentative, one could say). As Del says, it's on the catcher to complete the play if there was any doubt that he tagged the batter. I guess in his mind he had--but ignored the ump's signal. As a game CONTINUING PLAY, the ump has to make that a BIG signal, visual and audible.
I would strongly disagree (former high school umpire). The umpire gave the safe call. It's not his job to make a big and loud safe call at that moment. Then when the one team is celebrating and the other is running the bases, the umpire likely watching the action by the mound, because I assume that's where the BALL is. Nor should there be any big or loud signals as players are crossing the plate, because there isn't a play at the plate.
Basically, there isn't a reason to do anything at that moment you wouldn't do at any other point in the game. Any special call intended to alert the celebrating team that the game was not yet over could be considered showing favoritism. It was the celebrating team's responsibility to know the rules and that the game wasn't over. I guarantee you such a special call would have resulted in an earful from the manager of the team that actually won, and a protest if they lost.
That being said... some umpires will point to the right with two fingers to signal strike. Others will make the same hang motion as an out call. Both are valid and accepted interpretations. I chose the former, because I didn't want to confuse anyone with an out signal when it wasn't actually an out. This umpire chose the latter. It's possible some players saw the strike call, interpreted it as the out signal, and thought they had won. I wonder how many of them actually saw the umpire then signal safe.
I don't think the ump did anything wrong. The catcher messed up by not throwing down to first. I don't see anything the ump did that misled the catcher. That's a play a catcher should learn in first year of little league.
Note that #33 of Hornell seems to be aware all along of what's happening, and he tries to get his teammates to respond but they don't.
That’s all on the catcher but the pitcher should have
The second baseman, number 33. The poor kid knew what was happening the entire time! He was even running over (albeit not that fast) to backup the 1st baseman.
I didn't notice him after the celebration started, but he didn't zone out before. He watched the C and signaled safe after the tag attempt.
Matt, if you re-watch, the home plate ump has his attention/eyes turned toward the pitcher's mound and the Hornell celebration; he completely ignores the Palmyra runners circling the bases and touching home plate, where his eyes should be focused as the home plate ump. He watched the C, but his 'safe' signal was weak (and tentative, one could say). As Del says, it's on the catcher to complete the play if there was any doubt that he tagged the batter. I guess in his mind he had--but ignored the ump's signal. As a game CONTINUING PLAY, the ump has to make that a BIG signal, visual and audible.
I'm an umpire - he is not supposed to be audible in that situation.
As soon as the catcher puts the ball in his pocket, it's a dead ball. Each runner advances a base (I think in this instance, you would end up with runners on 2nd and 3rd?) and the game continues.
At least that is how I see it per the rules. Could be wrong obviously!
Yes- as with nearly any play in baseball, the baserunner is permitted to run at his own risk. Depending on how far away the ball gets from the catcher on a third strike, the runner may have time to reach home plate before the catcher can recover. The run will count, provided a force-out does not otherwise end the inning.
similar to if the ball gets caught up in the catcher's gear (we had an incident this year where the ball bounced into the chest protector of the catcher, and it was called a dead ball), or caught up in the back net of the backstop (also happened a couple times this year.
As soon as he puts it in his pocket, the ball is "out of play". I think.
similar to if the ball gets caught up in the catcher's gear (we had an incident this year where the ball bounced into the chest protector of the catcher, and it was called a dead ball), or caught up in the back net of the backstop (also happened a couple times this year.
As soon as he puts it in his pocket, the ball is "out of play". I think.
There is zero chance that's the rule. Otherwise, an outfielder could stop advancement just by pocketing the ball or throwing it over the fence. There would never be any inside the park home runs.
I would point on what the rule was when a ball rolled into the woods or under an outfield fence. The outfielder would put their hand up and stop. They were specifically instructed to MAKE NO OTHER ATTEMPT TO RETRIEVE THE BALL. Umpires would allow any base runners to circle the bases. An umpire would go out to verify that the ball was out of play, completely out of control of the outfielder. If that was the case, it's a ground rule double. If it was not the case, OR IF THE OUTFIELDER MADE ANY OTHER ATTEMPT TO RETRIEVE THE BALL, the umpires would call the play over when the batter crossed home plate, a home run. Because either the outfielder had lied about the ball being out of play to keep baserunners from scoring, or had interferred with the umpire's ability to confirm that the ball went out of play on it's own.
Frankly, the umpire would have more ground to stand on to rule the play a home run once the ball went into the pocket than calling it a ground rule double. But no umpire would be stupid enough to make that ruling, especially if they don't want their tires slashed by a vengeful parent.
The catcher looked back at the ump and the ump gave the safe call. Not sure how you can blame the ump.
Just seems odd that if the catcher knew it was a dropped third strike and knew to go for the tag, that if he missed it he wouldn't attempt a throw to 1st base
This happened not far from where I live. It was this season.
The easiest application is when there are two out; as others have said, then it's always applicable.
Many catchers just always tag the batter, if that's an option, no matter what the situation.
This catcher didn't, at least with conviction.
What a terrible way to lose an important game!
The easiest application is when there are two out; as others have said, then it's always applicable.
Many catchers just always tag the batter, if that's an option, no matter what the situation.
This catcher didn't, at least with conviction.
What a terrible way to lose an important game!
Quote:
that the catcher didn't even come close to tagging the batter./////////
I thought the same. He made a half hearted effort to tag him and then just gave up. He seemed to just follow teammates starting to celebrate instead of paying attention to the umpire. And, he knows he didn't tag the batter.
From the (camera) angle we have, I just don't see how that can be concluded with any certainty. Did he tag him? No idea. But what was also strange was that the home plate umpire seems to ignore the Palmyra runners crossing home plate, as if they don't count? Home plate umps always scrutinize players to make sure they touch home plate while the ball is in play to count the run. He was ignoring them. I think he zoned out from the get go from the dropped 3rd strike.
Quote:
In comment 16124600 Gman11 said:
Quote:
that the catcher didn't even come close to tagging the batter./////////
I thought the same. He made a half hearted effort to tag him and then just gave up. He seemed to just follow teammates starting to celebrate instead of paying attention to the umpire. And, he knows he didn't tag the batter.
From the (camera) angle we have, I just don't see how that can be concluded with any certainty. Did he tag him? No idea. But what was also strange was that the home plate umpire seems to ignore the Palmyra runners crossing home plate, as if they don't count? Home plate umps always scrutinize players to make sure they touch home plate while the ball is in play to count the run. He was ignoring them. I think he zoned out from the get go from the dropped 3rd strike.
We took them off the schedule the following season and for several afterwards.
We took them off the schedule the following season and for several afterwards.
haha - great story.
As to the video, it's all on the catcher IMO. If you drop the third strike, immediately tag the batter and, if there's any doubt, throw down to first.
Matt, if you re-watch, the home plate ump has his attention/eyes turned toward the pitcher's mound and the Hornell celebration; he completely ignores the Palmyra runners circling the bases and touching home plate, where his eyes should be focused as the home plate ump. He watched the C, but his 'safe' signal was weak (and tentative, one could say). As Del says, it's on the catcher to complete the play if there was any doubt that he tagged the batter. I guess in his mind he had--but ignored the ump's signal. As a game CONTINUING PLAY, the ump has to make that a BIG signal, visual and audible.
Quote:
I didn't notice him after the celebration started, but he didn't zone out before. He watched the C and signaled safe after the tag attempt.
Matt, if you re-watch, the home plate ump has his attention/eyes turned toward the pitcher's mound and the Hornell celebration; he completely ignores the Palmyra runners circling the bases and touching home plate, where his eyes should be focused as the home plate ump. He watched the C, but his 'safe' signal was weak (and tentative, one could say). As Del says, it's on the catcher to complete the play if there was any doubt that he tagged the batter. I guess in his mind he had--but ignored the ump's signal. As a game CONTINUING PLAY, the ump has to make that a BIG signal, visual and audible.
I would strongly disagree (former high school umpire). The umpire gave the safe call. It's not his job to make a big and loud safe call at that moment. Then when the one team is celebrating and the other is running the bases, the umpire likely watching the action by the mound, because I assume that's where the BALL is. Nor should there be any big or loud signals as players are crossing the plate, because there isn't a play at the plate.
Basically, there isn't a reason to do anything at that moment you wouldn't do at any other point in the game. Any special call intended to alert the celebrating team that the game was not yet over could be considered showing favoritism. It was the celebrating team's responsibility to know the rules and that the game wasn't over. I guarantee you such a special call would have resulted in an earful from the manager of the team that actually won, and a protest if they lost.
That being said... some umpires will point to the right with two fingers to signal strike. Others will make the same hang motion as an out call. Both are valid and accepted interpretations. I chose the former, because I didn't want to confuse anyone with an out signal when it wasn't actually an out. This umpire chose the latter. It's possible some players saw the strike call, interpreted it as the out signal, and thought they had won. I wonder how many of them actually saw the umpire then signal safe.
I don't think the ump did anything wrong. The catcher messed up by not throwing down to first. I don't see anything the ump did that misled the catcher. That's a play a catcher should learn in first year of little league.
Note that #33 of Hornell seems to be aware all along of what's happening, and he tries to get his teammates to respond but they don't.
Quote:
I didn't notice him after the celebration started, but he didn't zone out before. He watched the C and signaled safe after the tag attempt.
Matt, if you re-watch, the home plate ump has his attention/eyes turned toward the pitcher's mound and the Hornell celebration; he completely ignores the Palmyra runners circling the bases and touching home plate, where his eyes should be focused as the home plate ump. He watched the C, but his 'safe' signal was weak (and tentative, one could say). As Del says, it's on the catcher to complete the play if there was any doubt that he tagged the batter. I guess in his mind he had--but ignored the ump's signal. As a game CONTINUING PLAY, the ump has to make that a BIG signal, visual and audible.
I'm an umpire - he is not supposed to be audible in that situation.
At least that is how I see it per the rules. Could be wrong obviously!
Yes- as with nearly any play in baseball, the baserunner is permitted to run at his own risk. Depending on how far away the ball gets from the catcher on a third strike, the runner may have time to reach home plate before the catcher can recover. The run will count, provided a force-out does not otherwise end the inning.
As soon as he puts it in his pocket, the ball is "out of play". I think.
It's actually a very old rule with its origins when baseball was very different. Check this out...
history of the dropped-third-strike rule - ( New Window )
As soon as he puts it in his pocket, the ball is "out of play". I think.
There is zero chance that's the rule. Otherwise, an outfielder could stop advancement just by pocketing the ball or throwing it over the fence. There would never be any inside the park home runs.
I would point on what the rule was when a ball rolled into the woods or under an outfield fence. The outfielder would put their hand up and stop. They were specifically instructed to MAKE NO OTHER ATTEMPT TO RETRIEVE THE BALL. Umpires would allow any base runners to circle the bases. An umpire would go out to verify that the ball was out of play, completely out of control of the outfielder. If that was the case, it's a ground rule double. If it was not the case, OR IF THE OUTFIELDER MADE ANY OTHER ATTEMPT TO RETRIEVE THE BALL, the umpires would call the play over when the batter crossed home plate, a home run. Because either the outfielder had lied about the ball being out of play to keep baserunners from scoring, or had interferred with the umpire's ability to confirm that the ball went out of play on it's own.
Frankly, the umpire would have more ground to stand on to rule the play a home run once the ball went into the pocket than calling it a ground rule double. But no umpire would be stupid enough to make that ruling, especially if they don't want their tires slashed by a vengeful parent.