he did 14-19 today...jones was not on it....
DJ is a top 13 QB....that seems rich. higher than Goff/Tua/Murray....thats rich but those guys have elite weapons.
Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Hurts, Rodgers, Lawrence, Herbert,Jackson, Prescott, Stafford, Cousins, Watson, Jones.
Thats your top 13.
cant imagine he is higher than 13. well see thurday.
Burrow
Allen
Hurts
Jackson
Rodgers
Lawrence
Prescott
Watson
Herbert
Jones
Cousins
Stafford
I don't think it's a big stretch to say Jones is in the top 15 after last year, even though the passing numbers were low (due to all the reasons that have been discussed to death here).
He won games. Made the playoffs. He came from behind and won (5 times I think). He made a lot of key 3rd and 4th down throws in big moments. Made plenty of plays with his feet. He was a lot more responsible for wins last year than losses.
If his targets and OL can stay somewhat healthy, he should be better this year.
I don't think it's a big stretch to say Jones is in the top 15 after last year, even though the passing numbers were low (due to all the reasons that have been discussed to death here).
He won games. Made the playoffs. He came from behind and won (5 times I think). He made a lot of key 3rd and 4th down throws in big moments. Made plenty of plays with his feet. He was a lot more responsible for wins last year than losses.
If his targets and OL can stay somewhat healthy, he should be better this year.
Keep in mind- Simms was not a Jones fan when he was first drafted. He was pretty down on the pick but Jones won him over.
Tua has the work ethic, but he is one head shot away from having scrambled eggs for brains and that is a problem.
Murray doesn’t appear to have either. He has never performed down the stretch and is now missing time every year with injuries. He also does not appear to have the support of his teammates or any desire to improve his game. Talentwise he could be generational, but so could Jeff George.
I don't think it's a big stretch to say Jones is in the top 15 after last year, even though the passing numbers were low (due to all the reasons that have been discussed to death here).
He won games. Made the playoffs. He came from behind and won (5 times I think). He made a lot of key 3rd and 4th down throws in big moments. Made plenty of plays with his feet. He was a lot more responsible for wins last year than losses.
If his targets and OL can stay somewhat healthy, he should be better this year.
It may be a smart career move to currently act like a Giant fan but innthe past I’ve heard him talk about how he is a Cowboy fan.
Here is an old article where he explains why.
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Chris Simms, the one-time Texas Longhorns quarterback from New Jersey whose father, Phil, is a one-time New York Giants Super Bowl-winning quarterback, became a big-time Cowboys fan after his dad retired from the NFL before the 1994 season.
Move over, fellow Jersey guy Chris Christie, Chris Simms still roots for the Cowboys over the Giants.
He also played for the Longhorns from 1999-2002 and went on to play seven NFL seasons.
Since retiring from playing, he has been a broadcaster for Fox and CBS before moving to NBC, where he now works in the network's Notre Dame football studio. He also serves as a NFL savant for Turner's Bleacher Report.
Earlier this week, he was a guest on The Dallas Morning News' Ballzy Podcast co-hosted by Kevin Sherrington and me. When you listen to the podcast, you'll even hear his impersonation of his dad, whom you have all heard on CBS' NFL coverage.
Here's Chris Simms, who described himself as a "crazy Jersey guy but at least you know I'm going to shoot you straight" on ...
Why he roots for the Cowboys:
Simms: Of course, I grew up a Giants fan. My dad was the quarterback. But when my dad retired I jumped on the Cowboys bandwagon hard. I loved Troy Aikman...When I was a 13-year old boy, my dad went to the Pro Bowl and then he got cut by the New York Giants. He was the first major salary cap casualty in the history of the NFL. So I was a little bitter at the Giants as you can imagine. When my dad retired, (Aikman) kind of filled that void for me. On Sunday afternoons I'd watch No. 8 wheel and deal and from that point on I became a Cowboys fan. I root for the Cowboys over the Giants to this day. I'm very close to Jason Garrett. We've been together many times. He was down in Tampa with me one year
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And he likes Jones more than most other Giants fans do.
I don't think it's a big stretch to say Jones is in the top 15 after last year, even though the passing numbers were low (due to all the reasons that have been discussed to death here).
He won games. Made the playoffs. He came from behind and won (5 times I think). He made a lot of key 3rd and 4th down throws in big moments. Made plenty of plays with his feet. He was a lot more responsible for wins last year than losses.
If his targets and OL can stay somewhat healthy, he should be better this year.
Keep in mind- Simms was not a Jones fan when he was first drafted. He was pretty down on the pick but Jones won him over.
Pretty useless to worry where he is exactly - there is not much difference from #8-#15, each has flaws and strengths.
Let's see if Kafka and Tierney can get him to improve again this year.
Also, after a year off (we know the reason and yes, dependability matters) in 2021 and a fractional and poor 2022, does Watson not dip in rankings?
He won games. Made the playoffs. He came from behind and won (5 times I think). He made a lot of key 3rd and 4th down throws in big moments. Made plenty of plays with his feet. He was a lot more responsible for wins last year than losses.
Which is why I disagree with the “Barkley was the offense” narrative, especially the second half of the season
I
Same here.
100% agree
Cousins made some incredible plays under pressure and has done an admirable job in a much longer career. I really don't get the cousins hate. He's a very good QB, albeit not great and may never get his team a SB. But he's very good. Like a Tony Romo I'd say
If you're going to use last year alone to put DJ ahead of Dak, then I think you'd have to also use last year to put Goff (and possibly Tua) ahead of DJ. I don't see how you can have it both ways if you're being consistent.
That's not really how football works.
We watched DJ outplay the Minnesota defense to a greater degree than Cousins outplayed the Giants' defense.
It's not a head-to-head sprint. Each QB is facing the other team's defense, not the other team's QB. And the Vikings' defense last year was pretty abysmal - I'm not sure how you can leave that part out when viewing two QBs in a head-to-head comparison.
The other guys don't matter.
10-12 sounds about right.
10-12 sounds about right.
I don't necessarily disagree with any of this. I can see DJ over Goff as a reasonable take. I just think if someone is going to put DJ ahead of Dak based on last year alone, then Goff should be ahead of both of them - based on last year alone.
Ranking every QB to throw a pass during 2022 NFL season - ( New Window )
I don’t think Dak or Goff lead the 2022 Giants to the playoffs. I wouldn’t die on that hill but I’ve watched enough of those two over the years where I’m fairly confident in my opinion.
I don’t think Dak or Goff lead the 2022 Giants to the playoffs. I wouldn’t die on that hill but I’ve watched enough of those two over the years where I’m fairly confident in my opinion.
You don't think trading +600 rushing yards from DJ in exchange for +1200 passing yards from Goff and +7 rushing TDs from DJ in exchange for +14 passing TDs from Goff would have netted out at least evenly with where the Giants wound up last year?
If you're going by body of work, it would be hard to put DJ very high up the list because of his 2020 and 2021 seasons - I don't see how you get DJ above Dak in that context, though you could make a decent case for DJ above Goff on total body of work. Conversely, if you're using 2022 alone, I can definitely see DJ over Dak, but I don't see how you can put DJ over Goff. I think people are sleeping on how strong Goff's 2022 season was.
Link - ( New Window )
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if you factor in our OL and WRs I think it’s completely reasonable to say Jones performed better than Dak, especially when Cooper Rush had a slightly better QBR and better record (albeit in fewer starts) than Dak.
I don’t think Dak or Goff lead the 2022 Giants to the playoffs. I wouldn’t die on that hill but I’ve watched enough of those two over the years where I’m fairly confident in my opinion.
You don't think trading +600 rushing yards from DJ in exchange for +1200 passing yards from Goff and +7 rushing TDs from DJ in exchange for +14 passing TDs from Goff would have netted out at least evenly with where the Giants wound up last year?
If you're going by body of work, it would be hard to put DJ very high up the list because of his 2020 and 2021 seasons - I don't see how you get DJ above Dak in that context, though you could make a decent case for DJ above Goff on total body of work. Conversely, if you're using 2022 alone, I can definitely see DJ over Dak, but I don't see how you can put DJ over Goff. I think people are sleeping on how strong Goff's 2022 season was. Link - ( New Window )
Need to include all of DJ's TDs, running too. Goff can't run so he can't do that. Jones mobility is a key part of his game. Viewing only his passing TD's doesn't take into account the offense the Giants put around him or his skillset
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In comment 16125757 UConn4523 said:
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if you factor in our OL and WRs I think it’s completely reasonable to say Jones performed better than Dak, especially when Cooper Rush had a slightly better QBR and better record (albeit in fewer starts) than Dak.
I don’t think Dak or Goff lead the 2022 Giants to the playoffs. I wouldn’t die on that hill but I’ve watched enough of those two over the years where I’m fairly confident in my opinion.
You don't think trading +600 rushing yards from DJ in exchange for +1200 passing yards from Goff and +7 rushing TDs from DJ in exchange for +14 passing TDs from Goff would have netted out at least evenly with where the Giants wound up last year?
If you're going by body of work, it would be hard to put DJ very high up the list because of his 2020 and 2021 seasons - I don't see how you get DJ above Dak in that context, though you could make a decent case for DJ above Goff on total body of work. Conversely, if you're using 2022 alone, I can definitely see DJ over Dak, but I don't see how you can put DJ over Goff. I think people are sleeping on how strong Goff's 2022 season was. Link - ( New Window )
Need to include all of DJ's TDs, running too. Goff can't run so he can't do that. Jones mobility is a key part of his game. Viewing only his passing TD's doesn't take into account the offense the Giants put around him or his skillset
I did include all of DJ's TDs, running too. What do you think the bold above is referencing? The amounts by which DJ exceeded Goff on the rushing side (both yardage and TDs) were doubled by the variance by which Goff exceeded DJ on the passing side.
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We watched him outplay Cousins, twice And questioning whether he’s better than Goff/Tua/Murray. I don’t. Ok on the rest for now. He has things to prove. It’s certainly fair and it should be remembered that he was predicted to be a backup by now by a number of folks.
That's not really how football works.
We watched DJ outplay the Minnesota defense to a greater degree than Cousins outplayed the Giants' defense.
It's not a head-to-head sprint. Each QB is facing the other team's defense, not the other team's QB. And the Vikings' defense last year was pretty abysmal - I'm not sure how you can leave that part out when viewing two QBs in a head-to-head comparison.
Exactly. I watch every Vikings game (my wife is a diehard) that doesn't conflict with the Giants schedule. Not only the stats, but the the eyeball test says Cousins is better. That said, I love DJ and think this may be the year he elevates to the top 8 in the league.
Is dick measuring something that is done at the combine? If so, when did they add it? I always thought it was something that should be added into the calculation, especially for 3 cone drill and maybe the shuttle.
Those are totally valid points. But we're not talking about a 1:1 trade off on yardage (or TDs). In the passing stats where Goff finished ahead of DJ, the margin was TWICE the margin (in both yardage and TDs) that DJ led the rushing stats by. So even if you can make a valid case for incremental value attached to rushing contributions compared to passing (and correlation to winning, in general, would disagree, but I'm with you on the rushing stats for DJ being especially vital to the Giants' success), I don't think you could reasonably argue that DJ's surplus rushing yards and TDs are worth twice as much as JG's surplus passing yards and TDs.
None of this is intended to denigrate DJ. I'm just saying that I think Giants fans who are only paying attention to DJ might not have realized just how strong Goff's own YOY improvement was last season. Goff had a better year than DJ, IMO, and I don't think it's splitting hairs to say so. And I don't think that makes Goff better than DJ, either - I was simply saying (in response to someone else), that if you're using last year alone as the reason to rank DJ ahead of Dak, you can't turn around and ignore last year alone in order to rank DJ ahead of Goff. It's one or the other, IMO.
I know we care. But they really are stupid. Remember when Eli was 19th or so? Or Simms? I do.
Stats don't win titles. Teams do. QBs sure help, but Jones is the least of our worries.
I know we care. But they really are stupid. Remember when Eli was 19th or so? Or Simms? I do.
Stats don't win titles. Teams do. QBs sure help, but Jones is the least of our worries.
Least? I don't think the QB is ever the least of any team's worries. I don't care if you have Mahomes, or Brady, or Staubach, or Unitas. The QB should never be the least of your worries.
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We watched him outplay Cousins, twice And questioning whether he’s better than Goff/Tua/Murray. I don’t. Ok on the rest for now. He has things to prove. It’s certainly fair and it should be remembered that he was predicted to be a backup by now by a number of folks.
Cousins made some incredible plays under pressure and has done an admirable job in a much longer career. I really don't get the cousins hate. He's a very good QB, albeit not great and may never get his team a SB. But he's very good. Like a Tony Romo I'd say
Didn’t say I hated him and he is a good QB. But he’s had very good receivers in general and currently an all world WR and my “eyeball test” says he’s not as good as Jones. And his long career works against him in this comparison. Lots of years with good teams and little to show for it but fantasy points.
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In comment 16125769 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16125757 UConn4523 said:
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if you factor in our OL and WRs I think it’s completely reasonable to say Jones performed better than Dak, especially when Cooper Rush had a slightly better QBR and better record (albeit in fewer starts) than Dak.
I don’t think Dak or Goff lead the 2022 Giants to the playoffs. I wouldn’t die on that hill but I’ve watched enough of those two over the years where I’m fairly confident in my opinion.
You don't think trading +600 rushing yards from DJ in exchange for +1200 passing yards from Goff and +7 rushing TDs from DJ in exchange for +14 passing TDs from Goff would have netted out at least evenly with where the Giants wound up last year?
If you're going by body of work, it would be hard to put DJ very high up the list because of his 2020 and 2021 seasons - I don't see how you get DJ above Dak in that context, though you could make a decent case for DJ above Goff on total body of work. Conversely, if you're using 2022 alone, I can definitely see DJ over Dak, but I don't see how you can put DJ over Goff. I think people are sleeping on how strong Goff's 2022 season was. Link - ( New Window )
Need to include all of DJ's TDs, running too. Goff can't run so he can't do that. Jones mobility is a key part of his game. Viewing only his passing TD's doesn't take into account the offense the Giants put around him or his skillset
I did include all of DJ's TDs, running too. What do you think the bold above is referencing? The amounts by which DJ exceeded Goff on the rushing side (both yardage and TDs) were doubled by the variance by which Goff exceeded DJ on the passing side.
I think I know the point you're trying to make but does anyone honestly think Goff is TWICE the passer that Jones is?
If Goff was our QB last season I question whether we win 7-8 games, let alone a road playoff game as well.
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and useless and subject to high levels of fair scrutiny than the beloved QB top 10-20 lists.
I know we care. But they really are stupid. Remember when Eli was 19th or so? Or Simms? I do.
Stats don't win titles. Teams do. QBs sure help, but Jones is the least of our worries.
Least? I don't think the QB is ever the least of any team's worries. I don't care if you have Mahomes, or Brady, or Staubach, or Unitas. The QB should never be the least of your worries.
OK. That wasn't really the point...of course the QB is the most important position, I think we all know that by now.
Point is Jones isn't going to just suck in 2023-24. He has arrived. All this talk of worry and will Jones turn into the great pumpkin is odd to me. He's going to help this team win going forward, meaning he's not a concern as a football player. That was the point.
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In comment 16125782 PatersonPlank said:
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In comment 16125769 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16125757 UConn4523 said:
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if you factor in our OL and WRs I think it’s completely reasonable to say Jones performed better than Dak, especially when Cooper Rush had a slightly better QBR and better record (albeit in fewer starts) than Dak.
I don’t think Dak or Goff lead the 2022 Giants to the playoffs. I wouldn’t die on that hill but I’ve watched enough of those two over the years where I’m fairly confident in my opinion.
You don't think trading +600 rushing yards from DJ in exchange for +1200 passing yards from Goff and +7 rushing TDs from DJ in exchange for +14 passing TDs from Goff would have netted out at least evenly with where the Giants wound up last year?
If you're going by body of work, it would be hard to put DJ very high up the list because of his 2020 and 2021 seasons - I don't see how you get DJ above Dak in that context, though you could make a decent case for DJ above Goff on total body of work. Conversely, if you're using 2022 alone, I can definitely see DJ over Dak, but I don't see how you can put DJ over Goff. I think people are sleeping on how strong Goff's 2022 season was. Link - ( New Window )
Need to include all of DJ's TDs, running too. Goff can't run so he can't do that. Jones mobility is a key part of his game. Viewing only his passing TD's doesn't take into account the offense the Giants put around him or his skillset
I did include all of DJ's TDs, running too. What do you think the bold above is referencing? The amounts by which DJ exceeded Goff on the rushing side (both yardage and TDs) were doubled by the variance by which Goff exceeded DJ on the passing side.
I think I know the point you're trying to make but does anyone honestly think Goff is TWICE the passer that Jones is?
If Goff was our QB last season I question whether we win 7-8 games, let alone a road playoff game as well.
He's not twice the passer that DJ is. But he represented an incremental +600 total yards and +7 total TDs over DJ last year. His team increased their win total, YOY, by 6; DJ's team increased their win total, YOY, by 5. Goff has reached the Super Bowl. DJ has only reached the divisional round.
Goff has had a better supporting cast (and coaching) through much of his career, but he also has better passing numbers and more W/L success, so it's not like he's been flat to DJ in stats or results with just a stronger supporting cast sticking out like a sore thumb.
As to how the Giants would have done with Goff instead of Jones, do you really think Daboll and Kafka wouldn't have found a way to be just as successful with Goff (albeit in a different way than they did with DJ).
I’m going to factor those things in when we are splitting hairs between the non elite group of QBs.