for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

No. 11 Daniel Jones Chris Simms Top QB List

amindan54 : 6/1/2023 4:24 pm
im closer to 16 than 11.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiYJ3AC1jVE

wow.
Pages: 1 2 <<Prev | Show All |
RE: ^^^this may be true,  
HBart : 6/8/2023 8:18 am : link
In comment 16129631 TrevorC said:
Quote:
But its also because he didnt really have much to throw at and the Eagles front 7 destroyed our OL. HE had a look at Hodgins, Bellinger and then... Richie James. He didnt have any time to let Slayton get open.

Swap in Waller, Campbell and even Crowder/Wandale and all of a sudden those quick strikes loosen up the defense. More first downs happen and the D gets gassed.

BG has always had a big mouth, but I think he is overrating what his D had to deal with. Sure, they were still a great unit. But lets not make it like they played against an offense that had all of its horses. Not one single week 1 starter started that playoff and even the week one guys were noting to sing about.

God I hope we fuck them up at least once this year.

Given the talent gap, being on the field at all on January 21 is a credit to Jones and every other Giant.

How would Joe Montana fared with no Taylor and Rice on a team with a crap line and historically bad run defense? How hard would that be to defensive game plan. 1) Take away Roger Craig. 2) See number one.

The Eagles still have more proven players and better depth. But with reasonable heath I think both games will be wars, and both in play for wins.
RE: RE: ^^^this may be true,  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/8/2023 8:24 am : link
In comment 16129725 HBart said:
Quote:
In comment 16129631 TrevorC said:


Quote:


But its also because he didnt really have much to throw at and the Eagles front 7 destroyed our OL. HE had a look at Hodgins, Bellinger and then... Richie James. He didnt have any time to let Slayton get open.

Swap in Waller, Campbell and even Crowder/Wandale and all of a sudden those quick strikes loosen up the defense. More first downs happen and the D gets gassed.

BG has always had a big mouth, but I think he is overrating what his D had to deal with. Sure, they were still a great unit. But lets not make it like they played against an offense that had all of its horses. Not one single week 1 starter started that playoff and even the week one guys were noting to sing about.

God I hope we fuck them up at least once this year.


Given the talent gap, being on the field at all on January 21 is a credit to Jones and every other Giant.

How would Joe Montana fared with no Taylor and Rice on a team with a crap line and historically bad run defense? How hard would that be to defensive game plan. 1) Take away Roger Craig. 2) See number one.

The Eagles still have more proven players and better depth. But with reasonable heath I think both games will be wars, and both in play for wins.

It's a valid point. And I hope DJ becomes as overrated as Montana is.
...  
christian : 6/8/2023 9:50 am : link
I didn't bring up that Graham quote as a commentary on talent, it's simply an anecdote from an opponent supporting the view the Giants looked to pass quickly, and if it wasn't there have Jones take off.

The data fully supports this. Jones led the league in short passes, he was 2nd to last in the league in intended air yards per attempt (6.4 YPA).

Jones was 10th in the league in yards after catch to air yards ratio. He produce 1609 with his arm, the pass catchers produced 1596 with their legs. The pass game was get the ball to targets quickly and let them do the work.

And despite the running the language no one was ever open -- according ESPN advanced analytics, Jones was one of 3 QBs in the league with 3 receivers in the top 50 in open rate (Slayton was 18th, James was 24th, Hodgins was 34th). The Packers and Bengals were the only other teams with 3 pass catchers in the top 50.

Jones was third in the league in scrambles and 2nd in the league in scrambles to pass attempts ratio.

Of course the Giants needed to improve pass protection, of course the Giants needed to improve the talent in the pass catching group. I've never said anything to the contrary.

The question is if this is an offense designed around Jones's strengths, or a gimmick offense (as Lines of Scrimmage called it last week), designed in reaction to poor talent.

You know who led the league in yards produced after the catch by pass targets? Patrick Mahomes. You know who was one of the 2 QBs who scrambled more than Jones? Josh Allen. Who was tied for 2nd to last in air yards per attempt? Justin Herbert.

My money is on this being the Giants offense in 2023. I don't think Jones is going to transform into a pocket passer, routinely waiting for plays to develop. I think they'll continue to look to get the ball out short and quickly. I think they'll still look for Jones to use his legs.

I think with better pass pro, Jones will increase the number of deep shots he takes. And I think with the addition of Waller and Campbell, that YAC number will be above 2K yards.
You aren’t wrong  
UConn4523 : 6/8/2023 10:00 am : link
but you are using that observation incorrectly IMO. We will still be a quick pass offense but we will have better personnel to execute (we hope) and in turn won’t be as easy to defend against. So Graham and co won’t be trying to stop Richie James anymore, and instead a few guys with 4.3/4.4 speed + a huge TE over the middle.
...  
christian : 6/8/2023 10:22 am : link
Richie James is pretty fast, he's a legit 4.4 guy. But Campbell is one of the fastest players in the NFL, and to my eyes is a smoother in the transition from catch > run.

I think he's the dark horse big upgrade. If he's healthy I think he's an X factor type of player.

The other obvious upgrade is Waller. But along the same lines, in his 2 monster years he did a lot of his damage with his leagues. He had 570+ YAC in both 2019 and 2020, compared to 575 and 624 air yards.
RE: ...  
HBart : 6/8/2023 11:17 am : link
In comment 16129825 christian said:
Quote:
Richie James is pretty fast, he's a legit 4.4 guy. But Campbell is one of the fastest players in the NFL, and to my eyes is a smoother in the transition from catch > run.

I think he's the dark horse big upgrade. If he's healthy I think he's an X factor type of player.

The other obvious upgrade is Waller. But along the same lines, in his 2 monster years he did a lot of his damage with his leagues. He had 570+ YAC in both 2019 and 2020, compared to 575 and 624 air yards.

Jones did everything he was asked and more. He wasn't asked to throw downfield much for all the obvious reasons. But was excellent when he did.
Daniel Jones was among NFL's best deep ball passers in 2022 - ( New Window )
If James is 4.4 then he sure doesn’t play as that  
UConn4523 : 6/8/2023 11:29 am : link
his YAC was pitiful and the worst of his career. Some of that was scheme but he never broke anything, which good players do regardless of scheme. In sum, he didn’t scare anyone and never a threat to take it the distance.
He wasn't scary  
HBart : 6/8/2023 11:38 am : link
But played well as a WR. Punts not so much.
Richie James was NFL's most reliable receiver in 2022 - ( New Window )
...  
christian : 6/8/2023 11:40 am : link
In comment 16129882 HBart said:
Quote:
In comment 16129825 christian said:


Quote:


Richie James is pretty fast, he's a legit 4.4 guy. But Campbell is one of the fastest players in the NFL, and to my eyes is a smoother in the transition from catch > run.

I think he's the dark horse big upgrade. If he's healthy I think he's an X factor type of player.

The other obvious upgrade is Waller. But along the same lines, in his 2 monster years he did a lot of his damage with his leagues. He had 570+ YAC in both 2019 and 2020, compared to 575 and 624 air yards.


Jones did everything he was asked and more. He wasn't asked to throw downfield much for all the obvious reasons. But was excellent when he did. Daniel Jones was among NFL's best deep ball passers in 2022 - ( New Window )


What are the things he did he wasn't asked to do? I'm not sure what that means.
...  
christian : 6/8/2023 11:44 am : link
Re: James, he insanely reliable. And the Giants spent ~4X more money to get Campbell presumably because they feel he has untapped potential. Even if that comes at the risk of being less dependable.
Dependable is great  
UConn4523 : 6/8/2023 11:52 am : link
but when theirs no upside than the potential is capped. I’m not shitting on James, I’m just refuting the notion that our personnel wasn’t the reason why our quick hitting offense didn’t work against Philly. Between the overwhelmed OL and lack of game breaking ability at WR/TE, we simply weren’t threatening and very easy to defend.
RE: Dependable is great  
christian : 6/8/2023 11:57 am : link
In comment 16129901 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
but when theirs no upside than the potential is capped. I’m not shitting on James, I’m just refuting the notion that our personnel wasn’t the reason why our quick hitting offense didn’t work against Philly. Between the overwhelmed OL and lack of game breaking ability at WR/TE, we simply weren’t threatening and very easy to defend.


I think everyone agrees with you, no?
RE: ...  
HBart : 6/8/2023 12:07 pm : link
In comment 16129896 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16129882 HBart said:


Quote:


In comment 16129825 christian said:


Quote:


Richie James is pretty fast, he's a legit 4.4 guy. But Campbell is one of the fastest players in the NFL, and to my eyes is a smoother in the transition from catch > run.

I think he's the dark horse big upgrade. If he's healthy I think he's an X factor type of player.

The other obvious upgrade is Waller. But along the same lines, in his 2 monster years he did a lot of his damage with his leagues. He had 570+ YAC in both 2019 and 2020, compared to 575 and 624 air yards.


Jones did everything he was asked and more. He wasn't asked to throw downfield much for all the obvious reasons. But was excellent when he did. Daniel Jones was among NFL's best deep ball passers in 2022 - ( New Window )



What are the things he did he wasn't asked to do? I'm not sure what that means.

Throw downfield, as you said.
RE: RE: ...  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/8/2023 12:32 pm : link
In comment 16129909 HBart said:
Quote:
In comment 16129896 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 16129882 HBart said:


Quote:


In comment 16129825 christian said:


Quote:


Richie James is pretty fast, he's a legit 4.4 guy. But Campbell is one of the fastest players in the NFL, and to my eyes is a smoother in the transition from catch > run.

I think he's the dark horse big upgrade. If he's healthy I think he's an X factor type of player.

The other obvious upgrade is Waller. But along the same lines, in his 2 monster years he did a lot of his damage with his leagues. He had 570+ YAC in both 2019 and 2020, compared to 575 and 624 air yards.


Jones did everything he was asked and more. He wasn't asked to throw downfield much for all the obvious reasons. But was excellent when he did. Daniel Jones was among NFL's best deep ball passers in 2022 - ( New Window )



What are the things he did he wasn't asked to do? I'm not sure what that means.


Throw downfield, as you said.

Is that to suggest that his downfield throws, few though they may have been, were rogue and outside of Daboll & Kafka's plan?

Otherwise, I'd say it falls under the category of "definitely something that DJ was asked to do when he did it."
RE: RE: RE: ...  
HBart : 6/8/2023 1:05 pm : link
In comment 16129926 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 16129909 HBart said:


Quote:


In comment 16129896 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 16129882 HBart said:


Quote:


In comment 16129825 christian said:


Quote:


Richie James is pretty fast, he's a legit 4.4 guy. But Campbell is one of the fastest players in the NFL, and to my eyes is a smoother in the transition from catch > run.

I think he's the dark horse big upgrade. If he's healthy I think he's an X factor type of player.

The other obvious upgrade is Waller. But along the same lines, in his 2 monster years he did a lot of his damage with his leagues. He had 570+ YAC in both 2019 and 2020, compared to 575 and 624 air yards.


Jones did everything he was asked and more. He wasn't asked to throw downfield much for all the obvious reasons. But was excellent when he did. Daniel Jones was among NFL's best deep ball passers in 2022 - ( New Window )



What are the things he did he wasn't asked to do? I'm not sure what that means.


Throw downfield, as you said.


Is that to suggest that his downfield throws, few though they may have been, were rogue and outside of Daboll & Kafka's plan?

Otherwise, I'd say it falls under the category of "definitely something that DJ was asked to do when he did it."

While he rarely threw downfield, when asked, he did it well. I have no way to know but I doubt he made many if any "rogue" throws. Downfield throws just weren't our bag last season.
...  
christian : 6/8/2023 2:00 pm : link
I suspect downfield throws just aren't the Giants bag. Certainly not in the way I think Garrett envisioned big bodied targets eating real estate before the catch. That's the modern take from the Coryell disciples. That's why the Giants wanted Golladay, he was the ultimate yards before catch WR.

I suspect Daboll/Kafka want to get the ball in the hands of the targets as many times as possible and rely on them to get the yards.

Waller fits this profile perfectly. He's a killer YAC weapon. It's also an area where Slayton got a lot better at last year.

RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/8/2023 2:45 pm : link
In comment 16129944 HBart said:
Quote:
While he rarely threw downfield, when asked, he did it well. I have no way to know but I doubt he made many if any "rogue" throws. Downfield throws just weren't our bag last season.

Right, so wouldn't it be fair to say that "DJ did everything asked of him" and just leave the "and more" off the end?
RE: ...  
bw in dc : 6/8/2023 4:27 pm : link
In comment 16129825 christian said:
Quote:
But Campbell is one of the fastest players in the NFL, and to my eyes is a smoother in the transition from catch > run.

I think he's the dark horse big upgrade. If he's healthy I think he's an X factor type of player.



Campbell's skills more than support why he was a second-round pick in 2019. The ability jumped off the screen when he was playing at Wide Receiver U. If he's healthy, it's time for him to live up to his potential.

BTW, just think about the receivers taken after Campbell in 2019 - Terry McLaurin, DK Metcalf, and Diontae Johnson. That was a very good draft for WRs taken in the first round. The aforementioned, and guys like Deebo, Hardman, AJ Brown.
RE: RE: ...  
HBart : 6/8/2023 7:20 pm : link
In comment 16130067 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 16129825 christian said:


Quote:


But Campbell is one of the fastest players in the NFL, and to my eyes is a smoother in the transition from catch > run.

I think he's the dark horse big upgrade. If he's healthy I think he's an X factor type of player.





Campbell's skills more than support why he was a second-round pick in 2019. The ability jumped off the screen when he was playing at Wide Receiver U. If he's healthy, it's time for him to live up to his potential.

BTW, just think about the receivers taken after Campbell in 2019 - Terry McLaurin, DK Metcalf, and Diontae Johnson. That was a very good draft for WRs taken in the first round. The aforementioned, and guys like Deebo, Hardman, AJ Brown.

Nailed it. His OSU highlights show amazing explosiveness, shiftiness and nice hands. He could be the team's highlight reel on his own. But his Indy highlights don't even look like highlights. Not surprising given the dreck they've had at QB during Campbells time.

Maybe the pollyanna is coming out, but my spidey sense tells me Campbell is going to be a monster (if he's healthy). He has all the pieces to live up to his potential here including coaches who know how to leverage his talent.
HBart...  
bw in dc : 6/8/2023 7:34 pm : link
Campbell is full of question marks.

But like your Pollyanna antenna suggests, if he start answering them, and start to live up to his pre-draft billing, there is a lot to like...
...  
christian : 6/8/2023 7:53 pm : link
Campbell had ridiculously bad injury luck in Indy. His only healthy year the team was a total circus. I think he's worth a 5M bet.
RE: HBart...  
HBart : 6/9/2023 10:56 am : link
In comment 16130167 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Campbell is full of question marks.

But like your Pollyanna antenna suggests, if he start answering them, and start to live up to his pre-draft billing, there is a lot to like...

Looking at his Indy stats, his 5.5 air yard average stands out like a sore thumb. Less (significantly less) than all the receivers ranked above him (stat-wise) and far less even than our 22 receivers. Slayton's was 10; Hodgins 8. Makes no sense to me -- it's like they only threw him hitches and quick outs.
RE: RE: HBart...  
bw in dc : 6/9/2023 11:26 am : link
In comment 16130449 HBart said:
Quote:
In comment 16130167 bw in dc said:


Quote:


Campbell is full of question marks.

But like your Pollyanna antenna suggests, if he starts answering them, and starts to live up to his pre-draft billing, there is a lot to like...


Looking at his Indy stats, his 5.5 air yard average stands out like a sore thumb. Less (significantly less) than all the receivers ranked above him (stat-wise) and far less even than our 22 receivers. Slayton's was 10; Hodgins 8. Makes no sense to me -- it's like they only threw him hitches and quick outs.


It's so hard to evaluate Campbell's NFL career so far with the injuries in his first three years and last year playing with a washed-up, rag arm Matt Ryan and check-down Sam Ehlinger.

Even Pittman took a step back in YPC in 2022.

Hopefully, a change of scenery is what Campbell needs.
RE: RE: RE: HBart...  
HBart : 6/9/2023 4:33 pm : link
In comment 16130473 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 16130449 HBart said:


Quote:


In comment 16130167 bw in dc said:


Quote:


Campbell is full of question marks.

But like your Pollyanna antenna suggests, if he starts answering them, and starts to live up to his pre-draft billing, there is a lot to like...


Looking at his Indy stats, his 5.5 air yard average stands out like a sore thumb. Less (significantly less) than all the receivers ranked above him (stat-wise) and far less even than our 22 receivers. Slayton's was 10; Hodgins 8. Makes no sense to me -- it's like they only threw him hitches and quick outs.



It's so hard to evaluate Campbell's NFL career so far with the injuries in his first three years and last year playing with a washed-up, rag arm Matt Ryan and check-down Sam Ehlinger.

Even Pittman took a step back in YPC in 2022.

Hopefully, a change of scenery is what Campbell needs.

Yup.

What's your bw-sense tell you BBI will be saying about Campbell in January?
RE: RE: RE: RE: HBart...  
bw in dc : 6/10/2023 9:11 pm : link
In comment 16130690 HBart said:
Quote:

Yup.

What's your bw-sense tell you BBI will be saying about Campbell in January?


One of two outcomes...

1) Now we know why the Colts lost interest.

2) This staff knows how to identify undervalued assets and get them to fit into their system.
Pages: 1 2 <<Prev | Show All |
Back to the Corner