I don't have a strong inclination to say that Evan Neal's 2nd year will look more like AT, taking a big step forward or if we will see similar issues with his game as year 1.
I do think with two great pass rush / DL units on the schedule in our first 3 weeks (Cowboys and 49ers) his improvement will IMO have a huge impact on our season.
If he is clearing holes in the running game and improves his consistency pass blocking I think we are a 2-1 team and if he doesn't show good improvement I think we are a 1-2 team.
I think the 1-2 team will be under a lot of pressure and is at much bigger risk of a disappointing follow up to their playoff run than a 2-1 team.
A bit of an oversimplification I can acknowledge but I am confident we grab at least 2 wins if Neal has taken a step forward.
The problem is, like you mentioned, is a tough schedule. What happens if he has a decent season, but has bad games against Philly and Dallas?
If Neal has a poor season, the Giants WILL not do well.
If Neal has a great season, the Giants WILL do well.
AT really ascended. If Neal does half as well in yr two, oline looks a lot better
If he does have a similar path, we may be crushing people.
If Neal has a poor season, the Giants WILL not do well.
If Neal has a great season, the Giants WILL do well.
He is vital but if you zoom out there are bigger factors. IE he could have a great season but if Jones or Barkley miss a chunk of time I don't see us having a good season even if he has a great season.
If he has a bad season but Jones and our new guys do a better job threatening the defense deep we have a good season still IMO. (Teams won't be able to rush as aggressively against us and with AT locking down the other side we can help him)
I think worst case he's an average RT this season, and expect he's better than that.
1.) Who is our starting left guard?
2.) Can Schmitz start right away at Center?
3.) Will Barkley hold out?
4.) Does Jones continue to improve?
5.) Can Waller stay healthy?
7.) Is the receiver group good enough to win with?
8.) Who starts at the other ILB spot next to Okereke?
9.) Who starts at Strong Safety? Will we feel the loss of Julian Love? Especially early in the season.
10.) Who is returning punts? Hopefully not Jackson.
In all my years of watching football, I've never heard this argument being made.
Issues more important than Evan Neal are the play of the quarterback, pass receivers, pass rushers, and run defenders.
If Neal turns out to be a stud, then everything on offense become easier, but you can say that about any of the other offensive line spots too.
My point here is I hope BBI isn't setting itself up to scapegoat one . player if the team loses a game. We've seen this before and it's not a good look for fans. It's more complicated than that.
In all my years of watching football, I've never heard this argument being made.
Issues more important than Evan Neal are the play of the quarterback, pass receivers, pass rushers, and run defenders.
If Neal turns out to be a stud, then everything on offense become easier, but you can say that about any of the other offensive line spots too.
My point here is I hope BBI isn't setting itself up to scapegoat one . player if the team loses a game. We've seen this before and it's not a good look for fans. It's more complicated than that.
I don't think it's that exactly. With Thomas at LT our RT would be a target regardless of who played. The injuries and talent shortfall meant an exceptionally hard job for any RT -- no less a rookie. Unlike the receivers the OL plays and is visible on every play.
All that combines with Neal's low PFF grade to create widespread OL panic (in Giant fan terms).
The Giants are a better team if Evan Neal plays at a Pro Bowl level. We all know that. But the difference in the fate of the team? That's a bit much.
What would be more troubling is drafting a guy in the top seven who didn't justify his lofty draft selection. We could have taken the WR instead.
However, almost everyone on this site and the pundits lauded the Giants for the selection of Neal. No one had a problem with the pick when it was made.
I ain't worried about the kid. If he fails to be a good pro, it won't be from a lack of effort.
In all my years of watching football, I've never heard this argument being made.
Issues more important than Evan Neal are the play of the quarterback, pass receivers, pass rushers, and run defenders.
If Neal turns out to be a stud, then everything on offense become easier, but you can say that about any of the other offensive line spots too.
My point here is I hope BBI isn't setting itself up to scapegoat one . player if the team loses a game. We've seen this before and it's not a good look for fans. It's more complicated than that.
OT is one of the main areas, along with around 5 others. It won’t make or break, but sure would be nice to have solid play there. Definitely will be over analyzed all season. And I am sure I will be included in that lot.
The Giants are a better team if Evan Neal plays at a Pro Bowl level. We all know that. But the difference in the fate of the team? That's a bit much.
What would be more troubling is drafting a guy in the top seven who didn't justify his lofty draft selection. We could have taken the WR instead.
However, almost everyone on this site and the pundits lauded the Giants for the selection of Neal. No one had a problem with the pick when it was made.
And I'm older than you Eric! (thankfully not as old as Bruce :)
To your point, I suspect Neal would have graded out fine on a team with some speed and target diversity. The knee bone is connected to the ankle bone.....
Also to your point, I don't see much analyst banter around Neal needing to improve. They know he's a beast of a talent who was a rookie on a team with too little.
The lack of concern around Neal leaves the talking heads free to fixate on no WR1.....
In all my years of watching football, I've never heard this argument being made.
Issues more important than Evan Neal are the play of the quarterback, pass receivers, pass rushers, and run defenders.
If Neal turns out to be a stud, then everything on offense become easier, but you can say that about any of the other offensive line spots too.
My point here is I hope BBI isn't setting itself up to scapegoat one . player if the team loses a game. We've seen this before and it's not a good look for fans. It's more complicated than that.
Totally agree Eric, that’s the point I was trying to make above. The only position in the NFL that can really kill a team from an overall season perspective is bad QB play.
Right tackle is very important, but even if Neal looks like Kareem McKenzie 2.0 it by no means guarantees that this team will be successful. There are many factors that can make or break this team’s season. That’s the case with all teams in the NFL.
1.) Who is our starting left guard?
2.) Can Schmitz start right away at Center?
3.) Will Barkley hold out?
4.) Does Jones continue to improve?
5.) Can Waller stay healthy?
7.) Is the receiver group good enough to win with?
8.) Who starts at the other ILB spot next to Okereke?
9.) Who starts at Strong Safety? Will we feel the loss of Julian Love? Especially early in the season.
10.) Who is returning punts? Hopefully not Jackson.
Quote:
the major catalyst this year. I’m concerned about the following in no particular order:
1.) Who is our starting left guard?
2.) Can Schmitz start right away at Center?
3.) Will Barkley hold out?
4.) Does Jones continue to improve?
5.) Can Waller stay healthy?
7.) Is the receiver group good enough to win with?
8.) Who starts at the other ILB spot next to Okereke?
9.) Who starts at Strong Safety? Will we feel the loss of Julian Love? Especially early in the season.
10.) Who is returning punts? Hopefully not Jackson.
You can say that about any team, all teams have a "what if".
Exactly my point. The OP was kind of insinuating that Neal was the make or break of the team’s success this year. There are a hundred other things that will determine the success of the Giants outside of just Neal. Which is indeed the case for all teams.
2nd and 2s, 3rd and 1s....can not be the norm. The Giants D must control the line of scrimmage.
Not taking away from the OL
Doing better with both trenches....is the ultimate goal
In all my years of watching football, I've never heard this argument being made.
Issues more important than Evan Neal are the play of the quarterback, pass receivers, pass rushers, and run defenders.
If Neal turns out to be a stud, then everything on offense become easier, but you can say that about any of the other offensive line spots too.
My point here is I hope BBI isn't setting itself up to scapegoat one . player if the team loses a game. We've seen this before and it's not a good look for fans. It's more complicated than that.
IMO, the play of the entire offensive line is the most important factor for this team’s success in 2023. Having an offensive tackle play as poorly as Neal did last season doesn’t lend itself to a quality line. And I’m not certain how the QB’s performance occurs independently of this. The Giants aren’t talented enough at the skill positions to overcome bad o-line play like the current Bengals or the 2011 Giants.
It’s not about scapegoating. It’s just acknowledging the reality that Neal needs to be better than he was as a rookie. JMS is a rookie, so there’s leeway granted for any struggles he might encounter. The other guys weren’t top 10 picks in the draft. Does that mean there’s more pressure? Sure, but that’s life in pro sports.
In all my years of watching football, I've never heard this argument being made.
Issues more important than Evan Neal are the play of the quarterback, pass receivers, pass rushers, and run defenders.
If Neal turns out to be a stud, then everything on offense become easier, but you can say that about any of the other offensive line spots too.
My point here is I hope BBI isn't setting itself up to scapegoat one . player if the team loses a game. We've seen this before and it's not a good look for fans. It's more complicated than that.
They had to alter the offense in a big way, because of how inconsistent Neal was, and that is being generous. I know the receivers we had last year were a below average group, but you could see Jones was able to produce when given time, and that was not often.
Injuries aside, I would say Neal is the biggest X-factor. If he improves, that opens up the offense.
Virtually all of David Diehl's career was spent at tackle.
I get that Neal was just a rookie, but his play altered the passing offense. Am I wrong?
In all my years of watching football, I've never heard this argument being made.
Issues more important than Evan Neal are the play of the quarterback, pass receivers, pass rushers, and run defenders.
If Neal turns out to be a stud, then everything on offense become easier, but you can say that about any of the other offensive line spots too.
My point here is I hope BBI isn't setting itself up to scapegoat one . player if the team loses a game. We've seen this before and it's not a good look for fans. It's more complicated than that.
Feliciano allowed 22 pressured and 3 sacks on 971 snaps.
Glowinksi allowed 34 pressures and 5 sacks on 1046 snaps.
I agree the interior was bad, but Neal was next level bad.
And again, sure, right tackle is less significant than other positions on the field, but when they are getting beat 1 on 1 consistently, it becomes a pretty big position that needs to get better.
No offense, but that’s ridiculous. There’s not a single QB in this league succeeding with a bad offensive line AND poor receivers. QBs can play well with one or the other, but not both. The Giants’ receiving corps still isn’t good enough to compensate for bottom of the sport OL play.
The best QB in the sport is Pat Mahomes. PFF had the Chiefs OL ranked as the 4th best overall in 2023 and ESPN’s analytics ranked the Chiefs as the best pass blocking OL in the sport (third in run blocking). As a comparison, the Giants have been 30th or worse the past 3 seasons according to PFF. ESPN’s numbers had the Giants as 1 of just 2 teams that were below 25th in both run and pass blocking. Asking Daniel Jones to overcome that with Darius Slayton is silly.
Where I think the coaches were worried is at center. There must be a reason they let both of our centers leave and drafted Schmitz. Just take at look at Tom Brady and when his center got injured last year, he didn't have a very good year. You can't have people busting up the middle. You have to allow the QB to be able to step up in the pocket. If a rusher breaks loose from the tackle spot, then the QB can run away and pass on the run. Pressure up the middle is much worse. By their actions, the coaches felt center was a bigger issue and they believe they addressed that problem by the drafting of Schmitz over the more athletic Tippman.
However, even adequate improvement from Neal would be fine. He doesn’t need to turn into a pro bowler in year 2 for the Giants to make the playoffs again.
But even if he does not become a good RT, would it be so bad to kick him inside to Guard where he would likely dominate? Leonard Davis had a similar career arc (tho Davis started as a G in Zona) and he had great years as a Guard in Dallas.
I never think of this. Its a great point and changing sides of the line DOES require an adjustment to the footwork you have been using for years, possibly a decade. Great point Ivan
No matter the cause, whether it be moving back to RT or the injury, Neal was a total liability on the field.
He looked like a UDFA out there. He had the most missed blocks of any right tackle, in addition to the league high sacks and pressure percentage pass snap numbers.
You simply just can't operate an offense at full capacity with a lineman giving up so many play destroying mistakes.
I'm an OL guy. Like others, I've been bitching about the lines of scrimmage for years and highlighting that these are our two problems vis a vis the Eagles and Cowboys. Because of that, Neal is important. But so are Schmitz, Ezeudu/Bredeson, Glowinski.
In all my years of watching football, I've never heard this argument being made.
Issues more important than Evan Neal are the play of the quarterback, pass receivers, pass rushers, and run defenders.
If Neal turns out to be a stud, then everything on offense become easier, but you can say that about any of the other offensive line spots too.
My point here is I hope BBI isn't setting itself up to scapegoat one . player if the team loses a game. We've seen this before and it's not a good look for fans. It's more complicated than that.
This is a really good post. Neal is definitely someone who will have a big impact on the success or failure of the team but there are a ton of others. Aside from him playing better, there are a ton of other things that will also need to go well, starting with our QB showing mastery of this offense and leading the offense to scoring more points. Jones has way more influence over the success of failure of the team than Neal.
Other guys who have a lot of impact
Waller - need him to bring explosiveness. He's the one potential difference maker in the passing game. The rest of the receivers are pretty average.
Okereke - need him to bring stability to the ILB, a real weak point.
Thibs and Azeez - need them to stay healthy and win more rushes. Pass rush was anemic too often last year.
McKinney - need him to get back to what he was and lead the secondary
We're gonna lean on at least three rookies in key roles - one of them at corner, which is an extremely impactful position on a team.
There's more. Neal needs to improve because he was bad but there are so many other variables that he can play great and the team can still disappoint.
Thomas' rookie season has been quoted numerous time from my time as just a reader and I would point again to that. Its valid. The type of speed and scheme you deal with at the NFL is just a thing. Evan Neal was just fine against Travon Walker in school. Haason Reddick is a different beast (actually someone I wanted the Giants to take in the 1st the year he came out) and Neal needs to adjust. Hell Trent Cole made Kareem MacKenzie look stupid quite a few times and KMac is revered as a Giant.
I think the angst is also around the scary bad floor Neal showed last year.
In the counting stats like pressures allowed (including sacks), penalties, and win rate, Neal was at or near the bottom among all tackles.
And it's not surprise (and take it for what it's worth) both PFF and PFR rated him at or near the worst overall tackle in the NFL.
Quote:
likewise Neal needs to learn and rep at other positions.
Virtually all of David Diehl's career was spent at tackle.
I thought Diehl started out at guard; RG in his rookie year, RT in '04, then he started at LG for two straight years before being transferred to LT in '07 after Luke Petitgout (check me on spelling) signed with the Buccaneers. I remember there was some uncertainty in some previews about whether or not Diehl could cut it at LT.
1.) Who is our starting left guard?
2.) Can Schmitz start right away at Center?
3.) Will Barkley hold out?
4.) Does Jones continue to improve?
5.) Can Waller stay healthy?
7.) Is the receiver group good enough to win with?
8.) Who starts at the other ILB spot next to Okereke?
9.) Who starts at Strong Safety? Will we feel the loss of Julian Love? Especially early in the season.
10.) Who is returning punts? Hopefully not Jackson.
1) Bredson
2)Yes
3) 50/50
4) 100%
5) he is focused
6) there is no 6
7) No not at all
8) probably committee
9) love easily replaced in my opinion
10) PR doesn’t make much of a difference. Just don’t fumble.
The Giants are a better team if Evan Neal plays at a Pro Bowl level. We all know that. But the difference in the fate of the team? That's a bit much.
What would be more troubling is drafting a guy in the top seven who didn't justify his lofty draft selection. We could have taken the WR instead.
However, almost everyone on this site and the pundits lauded the Giants for the selection of Neal. No one had a problem with the pick when it was made.
I think Neal has to play at an average level. Last year he was the worst starting Tackle in the NFL. If he gets to an average level it makes the whole O better. The issue is that we have no quality swing tackle at the moment either.
He is definitely not the only factor but he is tops on my list for the O to improve. The Center is a big factor too. Bobby Johnston talks a great game but the OL still hasnt blossomed and I have some concerns with him too. Thomas was already coming into his own before Johnston got here. I would like to see the OL improve under Johnston.
I am expecting a big year from DJ. I thought he played really well down the stretch and the guy works harder than any other player on the team. We have made some improvements at TE with Waller who is hopefully healthy. I am not sold on the WRs, it seems much of the same as last year, hopefully Paris Campbell is the real deal. I like Hyatt but in reality he was a 3rd round pick so I expect some flash plays but not a consistent year.
The D pretty much lost only Love and improved depth and starters at MLB. While I liked Love a lot, he was a versatile player but not a great player. I think we can get a similar level of play there. I have a lot of confidence in Wink. I have high hopes for Banks but again he is a rookie.
The biggest factor for this team is consistency. We lost very few players from last year and made the playoffs. We gained some talent in areas of need and now heading into year 2 of our system and the players are buying in and the team as a whole is putting in the work. Coaching has brought out the best in our players and hopefully that will continue.
Hoping for a consistent good run blocker and in those more challenging pass situations he can at least force rushers to take a consistent path whether outside or inside if he does struggle. If it's both it will be problematic again imv but at least the Giants have better weapons hopefully to help Jones that teams have to account for. Eric's point about the OL as a whole is a good one. If if gives up outside pressure Jones needs to be able to step up to deliver a ball or to get out of on a run as a example.
Fact of the matter is that based on ideal age and gaining experience the Paris Campbell we have is very possibly able to contribute as much as the media flavor of last year #1 WR that we do not have.
Unless Evan Neal is really a product of drug enhanced performance or has a learning disability that remained undetected throughout spotlight college exposure the minimal floor here is adequate starter at RT assuming health and being left to concentrate on that position. The swiss army knife is so monkey-see/monkey do. What team with a superior starting shortstop turns him into a utility player?