Always was going to end this way, makes to much sense..Seems like the golfers who took the money are going to make out big time.. Link - ( New Window )
When an upstart league (AFL, ABA) with big pockets come along, a merger ultimately happens. Why? Because the upstart league starts to take marquee players from the established one.
This merger was inevitable, but I am surprised it happened this soon.
generally agree, and i think some are misreading the leverage. Liv's recruiting has steadily slowed down and Koepka has been publicly expressing regret about taking the money since february and his game turned around. when they signed him and bryson it was mostly because they were injured and not performing.
a month ago shipnuck and others well informed were speculating that if Liv lost any of their players who wanted to break back to the tour, koepka being the obvious one, then liv was basically done.
i think over the last 2 years the PGA learned they had nothing to fear with liv except the unknown of court cases. koepka winning pga events didnt do anything for liv or the liv events or liv players. mickleson didnt do anything. the pga tour ratings were fine. any illusions of a pga tour alternative were splat the only question was how much money they wanted to light on fire. or if instead of lighting that money on fire maybe offer it to the pga and take whatever they can get.
When an upstart league (AFL, ABA) with big pockets come along, a merger ultimately happens. Why? Because the upstart league starts to take marquee players from the established one.
This merger was inevitable, but I am surprised it happened this soon.
generally agree, and i think some are misreading the leverage. Liv's recruiting has steadily slowed down and Koepka has been publicly expressing regret about taking the money since february and his game turned around. when they signed him and bryson it was mostly because they were injured and not performing.
a month ago shipnuck and others well informed were speculating that if Liv lost any of their players who wanted to break back to the tour, koepka being the obvious one, then liv was basically done.
i think over the last 2 years the PGA learned they had nothing to fear with liv except the unknown of court cases. koepka winning pga events didnt do anything for liv or the liv events or liv players. mickleson didnt do anything. the pga tour ratings were fine. any illusions of a pga tour alternative were splat the only question was how much money they wanted to light on fire. or if instead of lighting that money on fire maybe offer it to the pga and take whatever they can get.
Eric, I agree. The PGA could have waited this out and let LIV die on the vine, but when they were shown a suitcase of money, they said, "Hummm..."
RE: RE: RE: “Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it
When an upstart league (AFL, ABA) with big pockets come along, a merger ultimately happens. Why? Because the upstart league starts to take marquee players from the established one.
This merger was inevitable, but I am surprised it happened this soon.
generally agree, and i think some are misreading the leverage. Liv's recruiting has steadily slowed down and Koepka has been publicly expressing regret about taking the money since february and his game turned around. when they signed him and bryson it was mostly because they were injured and not performing.
a month ago shipnuck and others well informed were speculating that if Liv lost any of their players who wanted to break back to the tour, koepka being the obvious one, then liv was basically done.
i think over the last 2 years the PGA learned they had nothing to fear with liv except the unknown of court cases. koepka winning pga events didnt do anything for liv or the liv events or liv players. mickleson didnt do anything. the pga tour ratings were fine. any illusions of a pga tour alternative were splat the only question was how much money they wanted to light on fire. or if instead of lighting that money on fire maybe offer it to the pga and take whatever they can get.
Eric, I agree. The PGA could have waited this out and let LIV die on the vine, but when they were shown a suitcase of money, they said, "Hummm..."
that's what i think. if they are getting a few billion i have no idea what they do with that money - other than distribute to the players on the tour who remained loyal.
i would think purely out of self interest the amount of money each of those guys is going to get out of this is enough that monahan will still have his job.
losers in this are the "loyal" PGA golfers who defended the PGA and use the same propaganda insults against LIV that the PGA was hurling all the while negotiating with LIV behind their backs.
the players who took the LIV money are the winners.
because that once in a lifetime offer, especially for the marginal golfers, is just that, once in a lifetime and the loyal PGA golfers got nothing as far as I know.
I think some of you misread the legal angle of this
not only was LIV dying in the ratings but the PGA Tour won in court. Once this ruling came down LIV golf was ending one way or another.
Quote:
A federal judge has ruled the head of Saudi Arabia’s sovereign wealth fund, the financial backer of LIV Golf, must sit for depositions and produce documents in LIV Golf’s antitrust lawsuit against the PGA Tour.
Lawyers for the Public Investment Fund and its governor, Yasir al-Rumayyan, had sought to quash subpoenas claiming sovereign immunity.
U.S. Magistrate Judge Susan van Keulen ruled late Thursday that PIF’s involvement falls under the commercial activity exception to the Foreign Sovereign Immunity Act.
Her decision allows the PGA Tour to seek documents and any communication related to such matters as LIV Golf’s recruiting and negotiating with players, its business plans and its involvement in the new league.
If the ruling holds, it could pull back the curtain on the PIF’s business dealings.
NO CHANCE, none, that the Saudi's were going to sit in front of the PGA Tour lawyers in a US court case.
So instead they did what people with money who don't wanrt their secrets exposed do. They bought their way out of it.
losers in this are the "loyal" PGA golfers who defended the PGA and use the same propaganda insults against LIV that the PGA was hurling all the while negotiating with LIV behind their backs.
the players who took the LIV money are the winners.
because that once in a lifetime offer, especially for the marginal golfers, is just that, once in a lifetime and the loyal PGA golfers got nothing as far as I know.
i think the tour players are going to get paid out - and if so lower ranked guys will probably end up ahead of where they would have been. this whole thing was just a big negotiation and i think end of the day most will come away ahead but within that some more than others.
After all of these posts only one thing is certain
Monahan is the biggest piece of shit in all of this for using/apologizing to 9/11 families to speak out against LIV only to line his pockets with the same money.
losers in this are the "loyal" PGA golfers who defended the PGA and use the same propaganda insults against LIV that the PGA was hurling all the while negotiating with LIV behind their backs.
the players who took the LIV money are the winners.
because that once in a lifetime offer, especially for the marginal golfers, is just that, once in a lifetime and the loyal PGA golfers got nothing as far as I know.
i think the tour players are going to get paid out - and if so lower ranked guys will probably end up ahead of where they would have been. this whole thing was just a big negotiation and i think end of the day most will come away ahead but within that some more than others.
How will they get paid out? Bigger prize pools? Or do you think there is something else in the works to compensate the PGA "loyal" golfers? I hadn't read anything like that.
RE: After all of these posts only one thing is certain
Monahan is the biggest piece of shit in all of this for using/apologizing to 9/11 families to speak out against LIV only to line his pockets with the same money.
He definitely looks the worst of anyone, aside from the actual Saudi government. The players who stuck with the league just look like fools.
PGA had zero competition and while the LIV product wasn’t good, the fact that they forced some change is a good thing for the sport.
What I found interesting is how the top guys on the PGA were railing against the Liv tour, but that move of some to Liv forced the PGA’s hand to at least up the purses to be more inticing for the players to stay on the PGA.
This was how the World Golf events really came about. Top level players voicing concerns and huge money.
the way this went down is a bad look for the PGA Tour and their higher than thou attitude. Everyone with a brain knew money dictates things and the Saudis have it.
the other issue is despite the ratings, top tour players look at the extra time off, less wear and tear physically & mentally and still get huge money as a way to push the PGA Tour for some change
RE: “Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it
When an upstart league (AFL, ABA) with big pockets come along, a merger ultimately happens. Why? Because the upstart league starts to take marquee players from the established one.
This merger was inevitable, but I am surprised it happened this soon.
Much different world, different business model. I can only assume the Saudis put a massive check in front of the PGA and they rant to the bank with it.
Unless current tour players get massive checks, I don't see how this merger works. What prevents the top ten players - the ones people genuinely like - now do the same thing as LIV. Except they have the moral high ground.
losers in this are the "loyal" PGA golfers who defended the PGA and use the same propaganda insults against LIV that the PGA was hurling all the while negotiating with LIV behind their backs.
the players who took the LIV money are the winners.
because that once in a lifetime offer, especially for the marginal golfers, is just that, once in a lifetime and the loyal PGA golfers got nothing as far as I know.
i think the tour players are going to get paid out - and if so lower ranked guys will probably end up ahead of where they would have been. this whole thing was just a big negotiation and i think end of the day most will come away ahead but within that some more than others.
How will they get paid out? Bigger prize pools? Or do you think there is something else in the works to compensate the PGA "loyal" golfers? I hadn't read anything like that.
what else is the PGA going to spend the billions of investment on? building golf courses? i think the only way monahan makes a deal like this that blindsides his membership (and kills his 3 year PR strategy) is if it's an endgame with a huge $ windfall to the rank and file to keep them behind him.
separately for anyone interested below is a link from monahan to the players explaining the deal, most of the notable excerpts are on this first page, specifically that it appears in addition to the money the PGA Tour is appointing the majority of the board and holding the majority voting interest. Liv's "significant financial investment" is towards minority equity ownership of the new combined for profit LLC.
PGA Tour remains in control as is as a 501c6 with the only change being that Yasir will join the board.
there's going to be a ton more details that come out but im pretty sure the pga tour players are about to get big checks, the PGA eliminated most of the drama, and in doing so gave PIF a seat at the table. how big that seat is will be the question.
for spelling this out for those of you who don't understand what this is about:
Quote:
Thomas Jefferson didn’t have the golf industry in mind when he wrote that money, not morality, is the principle commerce of civilized nations, but his observation that a man’s management of his purse speaks volumes about his character can easily be applied to the sport’s leaders. Tuesday’s announcement that the PGA Tour, DP World Tour and LIV will form a joint entity offered little actual detail on the future shape of golf, but leaves no ambiguity as to the moral weakness of those guiding it.
The statement announcing peace in our time was flush with the kind of boilerplate banalities that corporate ciphers usually hide behind. Yasir Al-Rumayyan, the governor of the Saudi Public Investment Fund and the bag man for MBS, declared himself “proud to partner with the PGA Tour.”
“A momentous day,” cheered Keith Pelley, whose European outfit could charitably be described as non-essential to the new alliance, but was brought along for appearances’ sake.
PGA Tour commissioner Jay Monahan forgot his prior reservations about the source of LIV’s financing and praised Al-Rumayyan’s “vision and collaborative and forward-thinking approach.” The deal is “transformational,” he announced, though a cynic might suggest that his new partner’s bonesaw has proven itself pretty transformational too.
Peace in our time. Eamon Lynch's pen cuts quite deeply also even if it will draw no blood from those Emperors, who will chuckle as they quaff rare single malts in the oak paneled board rooms.
RE: RE: “Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it
Unless current tour players get massive checks, I don't see how this merger works. What prevents the top ten players - the ones people genuinely like - now do the same thing as LIV. Except they have the moral high ground.
That's much easier said than done.
LIV "worked" because Norman had the time, drive, business skills and spigot of endless funds to get another option off the ground. It was a perfect storm opportunity...
he's a scumbag choker. He let himself be used as the Saudi face because no one else in golf would speak to him. Remember his lead analyst embarrassment on Fox a few years ago? He even choked at that.
There won't be another breakaway "golf league" until there's another endless supply of money to start one. The top players are chump change compared to the bottomless Saudi money well. So was the PGA Tour that's why this happened.
i think this bit particularly hits pretty close to reality.
Quote:
For Monahan and Pelley – and for players, agents and assorted hangers on – the problem has always been where the money was going, not where it was coming from. The Saudis were eager to dump billions of dollars into golf, and no matter what disputes arose between the establishment and the upstart, there was a desire to ensure the money be redirected rather than rejected. Morality, like the families of September 11 victims and Jamal Khashoggi, was merely a convenient posture to adopt until the time arrived when space was cleared at the trough.
The exposure faced by Al-Rumayyan and his investment fund in U.S. courts hastened the need for a face-saving settlement, so the time to burrow is at hand. Thus Saudi money stays in the game and both sides position it as an equitable resolution. If this were a genuine victory for LIV’s concept, the announcement would have featured Greg Norman, the league’s chief executive and propagandist. Instead, he was not mentioned. Still, not the first man disappeared after his utility for the Saudis concluded.
The coming months will see make-good maneuverings. A Crown Prince’s ransom must find its way to elite stars who chose not to bolt to LIV last year, while those who did must be recycled into the various tours. While this happens, the only attribute of value will be amnesia, a breezy willingness to forget accusations, insults and litigation. Sportswashing is now standard operating procedure, a shared article of faith for elite golf.
my counter-comment would be that we all live in the world we have not the one we want. in the world monahan had, KSA was willing to burn billions of dollars attempting to buy as much control as they could at the expense of the pga tour. he didnt ask for that and had no real recourse to protect beyond what they tried to do in courts and the like.
for fans of golf all we can do is hope that the deal monahan maneuvered gained enough protections to protect the pga tour. expecting jay monahan to vanquish completely one of the wealthiest nations in the world with their limitless resources set on a specific objective was not a reasonable expectation in the world we live in.
he's a scumbag choker. He let himself be used as the Saudi face because no one else in golf would speak to him. Remember his lead analyst embarrassment on Fox a few years ago? He even choked at that.
There won't be another breakaway "golf league" until there's another endless supply of money to start one. The top players are chump change compared to the bottomless Saudi money well. So was the PGA Tour that's why this happened.
FWIW, Norman wanted to do something like this back in the '90s. So, I don't think he was "used" here.
You can argue he's bitter about his relationship with the PGA guard, but I don't think he's been used at all. He was very eager to engage in this fight...
that depends on how much of it they got in the deal. i dont disagree with that but it seems unlikely monahan would have caved for a weak deal when he could have done that at the beginning.
Per ESPN:
"PIF will be the exclusive investor in the new entity and will have the "exclusive right to further invest in the new enterprise, including a right of first refusal on any capital invested.""
PIF is the Saudi Arabian "Public Investment Fund." It does sound like they are the buyer in this transaction.
i dont have any more understanding of the details than what's been released publicly so far so it's possible the PGA tour gave up all control, but my guess is that they didnt and they just took what is effectively an enormous sponsorship and defused a threat. which was always the most probable outcome with the unlimited $ the ksa seemed willing to throw around in this.
whether it's amex or hyundai or bmw or schwab or whoever, any commercial organization is willing to trade access/influence for $. that's why nfl games can be flexed on thursdays and why there are patches on mlb uniforms. the question with this deal like any is figuring out how much either side gave up and my guess (which is just based on the leverage either side had) the pga probably got a good deal. without knowing anything beyond what's come out so far that could be a total misread.
It would be a pretty interesting sponsorship to include the Chairman seat.
PIF bought the PGA today.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Saudi Arabia buying the PGA Tour
It would be a pretty interesting sponsorship to include the Chairman seat.
PIF bought the PGA today.
its the chairman seat on a new commercial entity that didn't exist before, without majority voting rights over the pga tour which remains separate and as is.
the strength of the deal is how accurate that description of the deal ends up over time. they may have bought the pga tour today. or they may have spent a ton of money for a glorified sponsorship.
Monahan betrayed the PGA golfers, 911 families and human rights. Not to mention golf fans who support the tour.
Make no mistake that the Saudi’s funded terrorism around the world.
This was a business decision for sure
The PGA financial condition must be in a weak position based on the monopoly lawsuit legal fees that could drag on for years and funding designated events this year.
How about the Corporate Sponsors who stood behind the PGA these past couple of years financially.
Finally, talk about a monopoly!!! What about this new golf combination of the 3 big tours.
not to depress everyone but this is probably only the beginning
golf was an easy target because players as individuals were easy to buy, as are golf courses. organized team sports are more complicated but it does seem only a matter of time.
Quote:
“The U.S. sports market might not be ready yet for having a Saudi-owned franchise in the NFL, NBA, NHL, or MLB,” Dubinsky told Deadspin. “The MLS might be a different story as the New York City FC is [already] part of the City Football Group in which the Abu Dhabi United Group is the majority holder. So, it is not impossible to imagine that the door might be also open to the Saudis, if the offer will be attractive enough to secure the future of the league, grow the game, and can be marketed as a positive investment in a needy community.”
Quote:
Look no further than the money the PIF is throwing at European soccer stars. This summer, Messi is deliberating between finishing his career in the Saudi Pro League on a $400 million contract or with Inter Miami, which is owned by billionaire Jose Mas. However, with a relatively measly net worth of $1.2 billion, it’s safe to say Inter Miami would not be able to match Saudi dollars. French striker Karim Benzema is leaving Real Madrid for a three-year, $643 million deal to play with Al-Ittihad in the Saudi Pro League.
Quote:
While the NBA’s business with China has been unfairly targeted, it’s also made The Association more amenable to oil-rich companies. In a move that went under the radar in November, the NBA’s Board of Governors recently approved a rule change that allows sovereign wealth to buy up to 20 percent stakes in teams, as well as invest in endowments and penchant [sic] funds. For now, they cannot become majority owners, but the slippery slope is being tread on. Team sales advisers told ESPn that as team values have skyrocketed, the pool of individual buyers for franchises has dramatically thinned. Ultimately, the Saudi enterprise has an endless stream of oil money to throw at these projects, and unless something dramatically changes, it’s only a matter of time and money.
with the players who took the PIF $ to join LIV. But the LIV product, IMV, was horrible. I felt like I was watching Caddy Shack 2.
I love golf and was hoping this exact outcome could be achieved where both bodies combined.
But the PGA - the organization and certain players - looks very bad here after all of public barking. They folded big time.
Money is a very powerful drug.
You don’t have a problem with golfers or anyone for that matter taking $$$ from the country who had their hands all over 911?
I certainly do and lost all respect for those guys taking the money, and now the PGA too.
Ideally, sure. I wish LIV had a more wholesome financial backer.
But I suggest you look into the relationship our government has had with Saudi Arabia for close to a century. And still does.
Dirty money is everywhere. Check your 401(k) or pension. I guarantee your money is with companies who have business ties to China, Saudi Arabia, Russia, etc.
The PGA, in fact, has had business relationships with China and Saudi Arabia.
I try to live my life with as few personal hypocritical thoughts as possible. I want to be “real” and I want to be “right” whatever that is.
Saudi oil money is messed up to say the least. But where’s the line? Rich old ass PGA American money built off plenty of BS is ok, but the Saudis are awful?
I get there’s levels to this. But where the line belongs is up to you personally. It’s just a very hard thing to figure out. I don’t like this in practice. But in theory, it’s hard for me to call it out when we’re mostly in America and “big bank take little bank” is king and fuck the little guy.
I’m very interested to see how “the line” moves these next 10-20 years. Hopefully it moves in the correct direction.
Monahan is the biggest piece of shit in all of this for using/apologizing to 9/11 families to speak out against LIV only to line his pockets with the same money.
He definitely looks the worst of anyone, aside from the actual Saudi government. The players who stuck with the league just look like fools.
They are fools for refusing to align themselves with murderers? How about those that signed on with LIV will forever be seen as shitbirds of greed with blood on their heads, at least by some.
In comment 16129055 Nomad Crow on the Madison said:
Quote:
In comment 16129044 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 16128962 Mark C said:
Quote:
And if my following the PGA tour in any way supports the bloodstained Saudi Arabian dictatorship, I will never watch again.
Make sure you log off twitter and dont use ticketmaster at all as well just to name a couple of companies who have saudi investors
I am never on twitter and don't use ticketmaster. And I will not watch PGA golf on TV as long as the Saudis are in charge of it.
Make sure you dont order off of Amazon, no more google, hope you dont habe a visa, dont watch espn as they invested in disney, no nintendo, paypal, uber or zoom jist to name a few more..
Saudis have their money in everything
I don't understand the Saudis have money in everything take
No shit. But as usual in life, there is nuance to everything.
There is a big difference between the Saudis investing in public US companies and how it went down with PGA. PGA goes from a 'non-profit' entity, slamming the Saudis to for profit with Saudis the major investor?
The issue, IMO, is more of PGA made a willing choice to make a deal with the PIF where public companies don't necessarily have the same leisure.
At the end of the day, Saudi money is Saudi money, but the way it went down is probably what bothers people most. Especially after the posturing by the PGA.
I frankly don't give a shit one way or the other, but this is different than them investing in Google, IMO.
I think competition is a good thing, but now there is no more competition so it will be business as it historically was for golf which is unfortunate.
This merger was inevitable, but I am surprised it happened this soon.
generally agree, and i think some are misreading the leverage. Liv's recruiting has steadily slowed down and Koepka has been publicly expressing regret about taking the money since february and his game turned around. when they signed him and bryson it was mostly because they were injured and not performing.
a month ago shipnuck and others well informed were speculating that if Liv lost any of their players who wanted to break back to the tour, koepka being the obvious one, then liv was basically done.
i think over the last 2 years the PGA learned they had nothing to fear with liv except the unknown of court cases. koepka winning pga events didnt do anything for liv or the liv events or liv players. mickleson didnt do anything. the pga tour ratings were fine. any illusions of a pga tour alternative were splat the only question was how much money they wanted to light on fire. or if instead of lighting that money on fire maybe offer it to the pga and take whatever they can get.
Quote:
When an upstart league (AFL, ABA) with big pockets come along, a merger ultimately happens. Why? Because the upstart league starts to take marquee players from the established one.
This merger was inevitable, but I am surprised it happened this soon.
generally agree, and i think some are misreading the leverage. Liv's recruiting has steadily slowed down and Koepka has been publicly expressing regret about taking the money since february and his game turned around. when they signed him and bryson it was mostly because they were injured and not performing.
a month ago shipnuck and others well informed were speculating that if Liv lost any of their players who wanted to break back to the tour, koepka being the obvious one, then liv was basically done.
i think over the last 2 years the PGA learned they had nothing to fear with liv except the unknown of court cases. koepka winning pga events didnt do anything for liv or the liv events or liv players. mickleson didnt do anything. the pga tour ratings were fine. any illusions of a pga tour alternative were splat the only question was how much money they wanted to light on fire. or if instead of lighting that money on fire maybe offer it to the pga and take whatever they can get.
Eric, I agree. The PGA could have waited this out and let LIV die on the vine, but when they were shown a suitcase of money, they said, "Hummm..."
Quote:
In comment 16128637 Sky King said:
Quote:
When an upstart league (AFL, ABA) with big pockets come along, a merger ultimately happens. Why? Because the upstart league starts to take marquee players from the established one.
This merger was inevitable, but I am surprised it happened this soon.
generally agree, and i think some are misreading the leverage. Liv's recruiting has steadily slowed down and Koepka has been publicly expressing regret about taking the money since february and his game turned around. when they signed him and bryson it was mostly because they were injured and not performing.
a month ago shipnuck and others well informed were speculating that if Liv lost any of their players who wanted to break back to the tour, koepka being the obvious one, then liv was basically done.
i think over the last 2 years the PGA learned they had nothing to fear with liv except the unknown of court cases. koepka winning pga events didnt do anything for liv or the liv events or liv players. mickleson didnt do anything. the pga tour ratings were fine. any illusions of a pga tour alternative were splat the only question was how much money they wanted to light on fire. or if instead of lighting that money on fire maybe offer it to the pga and take whatever they can get.
Eric, I agree. The PGA could have waited this out and let LIV die on the vine, but when they were shown a suitcase of money, they said, "Hummm..."
that's what i think. if they are getting a few billion i have no idea what they do with that money - other than distribute to the players on the tour who remained loyal.
i would think purely out of self interest the amount of money each of those guys is going to get out of this is enough that monahan will still have his job.
the players who took the LIV money are the winners.
because that once in a lifetime offer, especially for the marginal golfers, is just that, once in a lifetime and the loyal PGA golfers got nothing as far as I know.
Lawyers for the Public Investment Fund and its governor, Yasir al-Rumayyan, had sought to quash subpoenas claiming sovereign immunity.
U.S. Magistrate Judge Susan van Keulen ruled late Thursday that PIF’s involvement falls under the commercial activity exception to the Foreign Sovereign Immunity Act.
Her decision allows the PGA Tour to seek documents and any communication related to such matters as LIV Golf’s recruiting and negotiating with players, its business plans and its involvement in the new league.
If the ruling holds, it could pull back the curtain on the PIF’s business dealings.
NO CHANCE, none, that the Saudi's were going to sit in front of the PGA Tour lawyers in a US court case.
So instead they did what people with money who don't wanrt their secrets exposed do. They bought their way out of it.
Judge rules PGA Tour can depose Saudi backers of LIV Golf - ( New Window )
the players who took the LIV money are the winners.
because that once in a lifetime offer, especially for the marginal golfers, is just that, once in a lifetime and the loyal PGA golfers got nothing as far as I know.
i think the tour players are going to get paid out - and if so lower ranked guys will probably end up ahead of where they would have been. this whole thing was just a big negotiation and i think end of the day most will come away ahead but within that some more than others.
Quote:
losers in this are the "loyal" PGA golfers who defended the PGA and use the same propaganda insults against LIV that the PGA was hurling all the while negotiating with LIV behind their backs.
the players who took the LIV money are the winners.
because that once in a lifetime offer, especially for the marginal golfers, is just that, once in a lifetime and the loyal PGA golfers got nothing as far as I know.
i think the tour players are going to get paid out - and if so lower ranked guys will probably end up ahead of where they would have been. this whole thing was just a big negotiation and i think end of the day most will come away ahead but within that some more than others.
How will they get paid out? Bigger prize pools? Or do you think there is something else in the works to compensate the PGA "loyal" golfers? I hadn't read anything like that.
He definitely looks the worst of anyone, aside from the actual Saudi government. The players who stuck with the league just look like fools.
What I found interesting is how the top guys on the PGA were railing against the Liv tour, but that move of some to Liv forced the PGA’s hand to at least up the purses to be more inticing for the players to stay on the PGA.
Ha excellent
Heisenberg nails it with a single picture!!!! One of the best posts ever on BBI. Great stuff.
This was how the World Golf events really came about. Top level players voicing concerns and huge money.
the way this went down is a bad look for the PGA Tour and their higher than thou attitude. Everyone with a brain knew money dictates things and the Saudis have it.
the other issue is despite the ratings, top tour players look at the extra time off, less wear and tear physically & mentally and still get huge money as a way to push the PGA Tour for some change
This merger was inevitable, but I am surprised it happened this soon.
Much different world, different business model. I can only assume the Saudis put a massive check in front of the PGA and they rant to the bank with it.
Unless current tour players get massive checks, I don't see how this merger works. What prevents the top ten players - the ones people genuinely like - now do the same thing as LIV. Except they have the moral high ground.
Quote:
In comment 16128660 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
losers in this are the "loyal" PGA golfers who defended the PGA and use the same propaganda insults against LIV that the PGA was hurling all the while negotiating with LIV behind their backs.
the players who took the LIV money are the winners.
because that once in a lifetime offer, especially for the marginal golfers, is just that, once in a lifetime and the loyal PGA golfers got nothing as far as I know.
i think the tour players are going to get paid out - and if so lower ranked guys will probably end up ahead of where they would have been. this whole thing was just a big negotiation and i think end of the day most will come away ahead but within that some more than others.
How will they get paid out? Bigger prize pools? Or do you think there is something else in the works to compensate the PGA "loyal" golfers? I hadn't read anything like that.
what else is the PGA going to spend the billions of investment on? building golf courses? i think the only way monahan makes a deal like this that blindsides his membership (and kills his 3 year PR strategy) is if it's an endgame with a huge $ windfall to the rank and file to keep them behind him.
separately for anyone interested below is a link from monahan to the players explaining the deal, most of the notable excerpts are on this first page, specifically that it appears in addition to the money the PGA Tour is appointing the majority of the board and holding the majority voting interest. Liv's "significant financial investment" is towards minority equity ownership of the new combined for profit LLC.
PGA Tour remains in control as is as a 501c6 with the only change being that Yasir will join the board.
there's going to be a ton more details that come out but im pretty sure the pga tour players are about to get big checks, the PGA eliminated most of the drama, and in doing so gave PIF a seat at the table. how big that seat is will be the question.
The letter sent to players just now from Jay. - ( New Window )
The statement announcing peace in our time was flush with the kind of boilerplate banalities that corporate ciphers usually hide behind. Yasir Al-Rumayyan, the governor of the Saudi Public Investment Fund and the bag man for MBS, declared himself “proud to partner with the PGA Tour.”
“A momentous day,” cheered Keith Pelley, whose European outfit could charitably be described as non-essential to the new alliance, but was brought along for appearances’ sake.
PGA Tour commissioner Jay Monahan forgot his prior reservations about the source of LIV’s financing and praised Al-Rumayyan’s “vision and collaborative and forward-thinking approach.” The deal is “transformational,” he announced, though a cynic might suggest that his new partner’s bonesaw has proven itself pretty transformational too.
Unless current tour players get massive checks, I don't see how this merger works. What prevents the top ten players - the ones people genuinely like - now do the same thing as LIV. Except they have the moral high ground.
That's much easier said than done.
LIV "worked" because Norman had the time, drive, business skills and spigot of endless funds to get another option off the ground. It was a perfect storm opportunity...
There won't be another breakaway "golf league" until there's another endless supply of money to start one. The top players are chump change compared to the bottomless Saudi money well. So was the PGA Tour that's why this happened.
The exposure faced by Al-Rumayyan and his investment fund in U.S. courts hastened the need for a face-saving settlement, so the time to burrow is at hand. Thus Saudi money stays in the game and both sides position it as an equitable resolution. If this were a genuine victory for LIV’s concept, the announcement would have featured Greg Norman, the league’s chief executive and propagandist. Instead, he was not mentioned. Still, not the first man disappeared after his utility for the Saudis concluded.
The coming months will see make-good maneuverings. A Crown Prince’s ransom must find its way to elite stars who chose not to bolt to LIV last year, while those who did must be recycled into the various tours. While this happens, the only attribute of value will be amnesia, a breezy willingness to forget accusations, insults and litigation. Sportswashing is now standard operating procedure, a shared article of faith for elite golf.
my counter-comment would be that we all live in the world we have not the one we want. in the world monahan had, KSA was willing to burn billions of dollars attempting to buy as much control as they could at the expense of the pga tour. he didnt ask for that and had no real recourse to protect beyond what they tried to do in courts and the like.
for fans of golf all we can do is hope that the deal monahan maneuvered gained enough protections to protect the pga tour. expecting jay monahan to vanquish completely one of the wealthiest nations in the world with their limitless resources set on a specific objective was not a reasonable expectation in the world we live in.
There won't be another breakaway "golf league" until there's another endless supply of money to start one. The top players are chump change compared to the bottomless Saudi money well. So was the PGA Tour that's why this happened.
FWIW, Norman wanted to do something like this back in the '90s. So, I don't think he was "used" here.
You can argue he's bitter about his relationship with the PGA guard, but I don't think he's been used at all. He was very eager to engage in this fight...
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In comment 16128558 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16128551 arniefez said:
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is a great day for golf is a very odd take to me.
that depends on how much of it they got in the deal. i dont disagree with that but it seems unlikely monahan would have caved for a weak deal when he could have done that at the beginning.
Per ESPN:
"PIF will be the exclusive investor in the new entity and will have the "exclusive right to further invest in the new enterprise, including a right of first refusal on any capital invested.""
PIF is the Saudi Arabian "Public Investment Fund." It does sound like they are the buyer in this transaction.
i dont have any more understanding of the details than what's been released publicly so far so it's possible the PGA tour gave up all control, but my guess is that they didnt and they just took what is effectively an enormous sponsorship and defused a threat. which was always the most probable outcome with the unlimited $ the ksa seemed willing to throw around in this.
whether it's amex or hyundai or bmw or schwab or whoever, any commercial organization is willing to trade access/influence for $. that's why nfl games can be flexed on thursdays and why there are patches on mlb uniforms. the question with this deal like any is figuring out how much either side gave up and my guess (which is just based on the leverage either side had) the pga probably got a good deal. without knowing anything beyond what's come out so far that could be a total misread.
It would be a pretty interesting sponsorship to include the Chairman seat.
PIF bought the PGA today.
It would be a pretty interesting sponsorship to include the Chairman seat.
PIF bought the PGA today.
its the chairman seat on a new commercial entity that didn't exist before, without majority voting rights over the pga tour which remains separate and as is.
the strength of the deal is how accurate that description of the deal ends up over time. they may have bought the pga tour today. or they may have spent a ton of money for a glorified sponsorship.
I love golf and was hoping this exact outcome could be achieved where both bodies combined.
But the PGA - the organization and certain players - looks very bad here after all of public barking. They folded big time.
Money is a very powerful drug.
You don’t have a problem with golfers or anyone for that matter taking $$$ from the country who had their hands all over 911?
I certainly do and lost all respect for those guys taking the money, and now the PGA too.
Make no mistake that the Saudi’s funded terrorism around the world.
This was a business decision for sure
The PGA financial condition must be in a weak position based on the monopoly lawsuit legal fees that could drag on for years and funding designated events this year.
How about the Corporate Sponsors who stood behind the PGA these past couple of years financially.
Finally, talk about a monopoly!!! What about this new golf combination of the 3 big tours.
Could this lead to future Saudi ownership of NFL, NBA, MLS teams? - ( New Window )
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with the players who took the PIF $ to join LIV. But the LIV product, IMV, was horrible. I felt like I was watching Caddy Shack 2.
I love golf and was hoping this exact outcome could be achieved where both bodies combined.
But the PGA - the organization and certain players - looks very bad here after all of public barking. They folded big time.
Money is a very powerful drug.
You don’t have a problem with golfers or anyone for that matter taking $$$ from the country who had their hands all over 911?
I certainly do and lost all respect for those guys taking the money, and now the PGA too.
I put the chances of Jay Monahan having to speak about this under oath to a congressional committee at 99%
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with the players who took the PIF $ to join LIV. But the LIV product, IMV, was horrible. I felt like I was watching Caddy Shack 2.
I love golf and was hoping this exact outcome could be achieved where both bodies combined.
But the PGA - the organization and certain players - looks very bad here after all of public barking. They folded big time.
Money is a very powerful drug.
You don’t have a problem with golfers or anyone for that matter taking $$$ from the country who had their hands all over 911?
I certainly do and lost all respect for those guys taking the money, and now the PGA too.
Ideally, sure. I wish LIV had a more wholesome financial backer.
But I suggest you look into the relationship our government has had with Saudi Arabia for close to a century. And still does.
Dirty money is everywhere. Check your 401(k) or pension. I guarantee your money is with companies who have business ties to China, Saudi Arabia, Russia, etc.
The PGA, in fact, has had business relationships with China and Saudi Arabia.
Saudi oil money is messed up to say the least. But where’s the line? Rich old ass PGA American money built off plenty of BS is ok, but the Saudis are awful?
I get there’s levels to this. But where the line belongs is up to you personally. It’s just a very hard thing to figure out. I don’t like this in practice. But in theory, it’s hard for me to call it out when we’re mostly in America and “big bank take little bank” is king and fuck the little guy.
I’m very interested to see how “the line” moves these next 10-20 years. Hopefully it moves in the correct direction.
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with the players who took the PIF $ to join LIV. But the LIV product, IMV, was horrible. I felt like I was watching Caddy Shack 2.
I love golf and was hoping this exact outcome could be achieved where both bodies combined.
But the PGA - the organization and certain players - looks very bad here after all of public barking. They folded big time.
Money is a very powerful drug.
You don’t have a problem with golfers or anyone for that matter taking $$$ from the country who had their hands all over 911?
I certainly do and lost all respect for those guys taking the money, and now the PGA too.
Yet you buy gasoline every week from the very same people...
Yet you buy gasoline every week from the very same people...
US is a net exporter of petroleum.
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In comment 16128579 bw in dc said:
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with the players who took the PIF $ to join LIV. But the LIV product, IMV, was horrible. I felt like I was watching Caddy Shack 2.
I love golf and was hoping this exact outcome could be achieved where both bodies combined.
But the PGA - the organization and certain players - looks very bad here after all of public barking. They folded big time.
Money is a very powerful drug.
You don’t have a problem with golfers or anyone for that matter taking $$$ from the country who had their hands all over 911?
I certainly do and lost all respect for those guys taking the money, and now the PGA too.
Yet you buy gasoline every week from the very same people...
we'd love to stop if there wasnt a terrorist organization in DC that stops the move away from it at every chance they get. 🤷🏻♂️
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Yet you buy gasoline every week from the very same people...
US is a net exporter of petroleum.
Not since 2021....
Not since 2021....
Net exports in 2022 of @ 450M barrels
EiA - Petroleum Supply & Dispotion - ( New Window )
There's a lot more than golf that you'll need to boycott if you intend to fully detach yourself from Saudi financial interests.
Make sure you log off twitter and dont use ticketmaster at all as well just to name a couple of companies who have saudi investors
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Monahan is the biggest piece of shit in all of this for using/apologizing to 9/11 families to speak out against LIV only to line his pockets with the same money.
He definitely looks the worst of anyone, aside from the actual Saudi government. The players who stuck with the league just look like fools.
They are fools for refusing to align themselves with murderers? How about those that signed on with LIV will forever be seen as shitbirds of greed with blood on their heads, at least by some.
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And if my following the PGA tour in any way supports the bloodstained Saudi Arabian dictatorship, I will never watch again.
Make sure you log off twitter and dont use ticketmaster at all as well just to name a couple of companies who have saudi investors
I am never on twitter and don't use ticketmaster. And I will not watch PGA golf on TV as long as the Saudis are in charge of it.
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In comment 16128962 Mark C said:
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And if my following the PGA tour in any way supports the bloodstained Saudi Arabian dictatorship, I will never watch again.
Make sure you log off twitter and dont use ticketmaster at all as well just to name a couple of companies who have saudi investors
I am never on twitter and don't use ticketmaster. And I will not watch PGA golf on TV as long as the Saudis are in charge of it.
Make sure you dont order off of Amazon, no more google, hope you dont habe a visa, dont watch espn as they invested in disney, no nintendo, paypal, uber or zoom jist to name a few more..
Saudis have their money in everything
There is a big difference between the Saudis investing in public US companies and how it went down with PGA. PGA goes from a 'non-profit' entity, slamming the Saudis to for profit with Saudis the major investor?
The issue, IMO, is more of PGA made a willing choice to make a deal with the PIF where public companies don't necessarily have the same leisure.
At the end of the day, Saudi money is Saudi money, but the way it went down is probably what bothers people most. Especially after the posturing by the PGA.
I frankly don't give a shit one way or the other, but this is different than them investing in Google, IMO.
I think competition is a good thing, but now there is no more competition so it will be business as it historically was for golf which is unfortunate.
That is the best meme ever