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In a 2020 redraft

Burt in Alameda : 6/6/2023 5:27 pm
article, which I just read, the writer argues that, rather than Andrew Thomas, the Giants should have drafted John.Jefferson. Now, Jefferson is obviously s great player and God knows, the Giants need a Number 1 wide receiver, but passing up Thomas, who may turnout to be the best left tackle in the NFL, what do we all think?
Tough call but I'd stick with Thomas.  
81_Great_Dane : 6/6/2023 5:33 pm : link
Thomas's reputation is still somewhat dinged by his early struggles. He's a stud. He could anchor the Giants line for a long, long time.
Are you talking about the SI Article?  
BrettNYG10 : 6/6/2023 5:33 pm : link
?
SI.com - ( New Window )
Giants  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/6/2023 5:40 pm : link
win SB's when they win the fronts. Give me a upper tier/elite LT as the leader on the offensive side.

I do want a upper tier/elite WR but where the Giants were as a team AT was the right pick imv.

Great Dane,  
Burt in Alameda : 6/6/2023 5:48 pm : link
Yes, but the writer did not really explain why.
He was a hell of a player  
arniefez : 6/6/2023 5:48 pm : link
until off the field stuff caught up to him.



As far as Justin Jefferson goes as great as he is unless Thomas has injury issues going forward I'll take Thomas for the Giants. But I understand if people disagree.
So elite that we don't know his name  
robbieballs2003 : 6/6/2023 5:48 pm : link
?
I'm sorry,  
Burt in Alameda : 6/6/2023 5:52 pm : link
I meant Justin Jefferson but John Jefferson was also a great wide out.
...  
christian : 6/6/2023 5:59 pm : link
Jefferson was a day one All Pro receiver, has been All Pro each year, including offensive player of the year in 2023.

He's literally the most productive receiver ever over his first 3 years in the NFL. His 4825 yards in 50 games is over 600 more yards than Randy Moss over 48 games.

Jefferson is on pace with the all time greats.

Thomas is a very good player, but this isn't even a conversation.
obviously Jefferson's the better player  
Vanzetti : 6/6/2023 6:19 pm : link
But Thomas was less of a risk. I could go either way
And if we had gone Jefferson we’d still have 4/5 wins  
BillT : 6/6/2023 6:51 pm : link
We fielded the worst OL in the league for years on end. And no OL means no offense. You can’t pass to a WR if you’re on your back. We saw this up close and personal. Guys like this don’t know the difference between drafting good players and building a team. Schoen gets this and that’s why, after all he did for the OL last year, took JMS in the second.
If the QB gets obliterated before the ball can be thrown, what good is  
TrevorC : 6/6/2023 6:57 pm : link
The WR?
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 6/6/2023 7:00 pm : link
Jefferson is an insane talent, but I'd still go AT. In hindsight, I'd rather have drafted Zach Martin instead of Odell in '15. And Donald too of course.
Good post Bill 10  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/6/2023 7:23 pm : link
'10 was the last really good Giants OL.

SFG; It was the '14 draft and I agree with you about Martin over OBJ. Dallas went in round one with Smith '11, Frederick '13 and Martin in '14. Might be 20 Pro Bowls between them. It's staggering the amount of PB's both Dallas and Philly have had from 2012 forward on the OL.

Last Giants PB OL? I believe it was Snee in '12.



LOS.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 6/6/2023 7:28 pm : link
Yes. I meant '14. In '15, we took the 'great' Erick Flowers...(banging head on desk).
RE: LOS.  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/6/2023 7:32 pm : link
In comment 16128882 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Yes. I meant '14. In '15, we took the 'great' Erick Flowers...(banging head on desk).


Reese never drafted a upper tier OL or PB one in 11 drafts. What did you expect lol.
RE: And if we had gone Jefferson we’d still have 4/5 wins  
christian : 6/6/2023 7:39 pm : link
In comment 16128863 BillT said:
Quote:
We fielded the worst OL in the league for years on end.


If the Giants draft the All Pro WR in 2020, they have the opportunity to draft the All Pro left tackle Rashawn Slater in 2021. And then draft Thibs in 2022.

Now of course the fruit of the 2021 trade produces Neal, Bellinger, Waller etc.

But an outcome of Jefferson, Slater, and Thibs is a superior outcome.
Jefferson plays  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/6/2023 7:59 pm : link
half the season and the NFCE has some really good defenses.

He would still have good numbers but I doubt he makes the same impact especially late in the season.

Jefferson against NFCE competition
Eagles 6-48
WFT 1-10
Dallas 3-33
Giants 12-133 We still had the secondary issues for this one with Jax and X.

Against Green Bay late in the year in Green Bay 1-15.
 
christian : 6/6/2023 8:31 pm : link
In 5 career games against the NFCE Jefferson has accrued 28 catches for 388 yards and 3 TDs.

At a per game average of 6 catches, 78 yards, .6 TDs.

For context on a 6 game average that's 36 catches, 468 yards, 4TDs.

On a 17 game schedule, pro-rated to 102 catches, 1326 yards, 10TDs.

WFT, Philly and Dallas were all top 6 D's.  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/6/2023 8:59 pm : link
I used the regular season and the Green Bay on the road late in the season. WFT and Philly were both on the road.

Not really sure what your point is. I said his numbers would be good. 7 other WR's have those numbers you posted and one TE and that's with the 1/5 games that was a outlier.

I'll take AT and saying it is not even a conversation sounds like someone from the BOG community. No thanks to that community. I saw what that group did the Giants and it wasn't pretty.





RE: ...  
Brown_Hornet : 6/6/2023 9:05 pm : link
In comment 16128820 christian said:
Quote:
Jefferson was a day one All Pro receiver, has been All Pro each year, including offensive player of the year in 2023.

He's literally the most productive receiver ever over his first 3 years in the NFL. His 4825 yards in 50 games is over 600 more yards than Randy Moss over 48 games.

Jefferson is on pace with the all time greats.

Thomas is a very good player, but this isn't even a conversation.

Agree.
A lot of teams could have picked Jefferson  
Southern Man : 6/6/2023 9:07 pm : link
5th WR taken in the draft.
RE: …  
fanatic II : 6/6/2023 9:10 pm : link
In comment 16128924 christian said:
Quote:
In 5 career games against the NFCE Jefferson has accrued 28 catches for 388 yards and 3 TDs.

At a per game average of 6 catches, 78 yards, .6 TDs.

For context on a 6 game average that's 36 catches, 468 yards, 4TDs.

On a 17 game schedule, pro-rated to 102 catches, 1326 yards, 10TDs.


If you go to Pro Football Reference and look at his split for his career you will see that Jefferson does the worst against the NFCE over every other division. His average numbers are still very good. But if he played in the NFCE they wouldn't be all time numbers.
very  
RasputinPrime : 6/6/2023 9:11 pm : link
happy with Thomas.
You are correct Fanatic  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/6/2023 9:20 pm : link
and the Dome is a big factor in those numbers also. The WR he was compared to also played with the same team but a different Dome. Moss's numbers dropped when he left Minny other than NE 2007.

Have to really look closely when evaluating Dome teams especially at the QB and WR position.

RE: You are correct Fanatic  
SGMen : 6/6/2023 9:38 pm : link
In comment 16128949 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
and the Dome is a big factor in those numbers also. The WR he was compared to also played with the same team but a different Dome. Moss's numbers dropped when he left Minny other than NE 2007.

Have to really look closely when evaluating Dome teams especially at the QB and WR position.
Agreed. Great WR but his numbers are better due to dome.
 
christian : 6/6/2023 10:30 pm : link
LOS posted 4 games, and got one of them grossly incorrect. In his one game vs. Washington he went for 7 catches and 115 yards, not 1 catch for 10.

Jefferson has played 17 games, equivalent of a full year outdoors -- he went for 92 catches and 1294 yards.

I missed a game when I posted above - he's played 6 games against the NFCE and went 33 for 436 (17 game prorated 94 and 1235).

If Jefferson played all his games on the road outdoors, or if he played all his games against the NFCE, he'd just be great, not historically great.

Of course, if he were a Giant he wouldn't play all his games outdoors on the road or against the NFCE, so he'd be back to historically great.

Jefferson has been elite and consistent from the moment he stepped on the field. Every GM in the NFL would take him over Thomas.
Nothing against Jefferson who is excellent but good Left Tackles  
ThomasG : 6/7/2023 9:27 am : link
are few and far between, and Thomas may not be far from becoming excellent himself. And at an arguably more valuable position with lower supply options.
I recently  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/7/2023 9:36 am : link
saw the Chiefs get rid of a elite WR who just had a 1700 yard season with the Dolphins and it worked out pretty good for them. Reid seemed happy and his OL was one of the first things he praised after the SB. I guess he learned the OL is really important in that SB against the Bucs when he had both Hill and Kelce.

Saying that all 32 GM's would go with Jefferson over Thomas seems like a awfully big assumption and I can't see any argument one can make to justify to make such a claim.
...  
christian : 6/7/2023 9:46 am : link
The calculation is:

- A very good left tackle, with 1 very good season under his belt, but with a history of ankle and foot issues that have hampered 2/3 seasons

- A WR who has literally had the most productive start to his career in the history of the league, including offensive player of the year in year 3

Remember, the point of the exercise is "knowing what you know now, who would you have drafted."

It's fair to project the Giants would had the opportunity to pick an All Pro LT the next year.

Hypothetically the question is what group of players would you rather have.

Scenario A: Thomas, Thibs, Neal, Robinson, Bellinger, Waller

Scenario B: Slater, Thibs, Jefferson
RE: I recently  
christian : 6/7/2023 9:52 am : link
In comment 16129113 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
saw the Chiefs get rid of a elite WR who just had a 1700 yard season with the Dolphins and it worked out pretty good for them. Reid seemed happy and his OL was one of the first things he praised after the SB. I guess he learned the OL is really important in that SB against the Bucs when he had both Hill and Kelce.

Saying that all 32 GM's would go with Jefferson over Thomas seems like a awfully big assumption and I can't see any argument one can make to justify to make such a claim.


The question asked in the article isn't would any team prioritize offensive lineman vs. skill players.

It's a pointed hypothetical about what each team (in this case) the Giants would, given the benefit of hindsight.

Given the Giants situation, and the way things played out the next 2 years, no one would pick Thomas over Jefferson.
Christian  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/7/2023 10:32 am : link
What I disputed was saying it's not even a discussion or that all 32 GM's would come to your decision.

Where in the article does it discuss the "projections" you talk about?

My initial post was based on Jefferson versus Thomas and I stated my reason for it. That's it.







RE: ...  
JoeSchoens11 : 6/7/2023 3:09 pm : link
In comment 16129119 christian said:
Quote:
The calculation is:

- A very good left tackle, with 1 very good season under his belt, but with a history of ankle and foot issues that have hampered 2/3 seasons

- A WR who has literally had the most productive start to his career in the history of the league, including offensive player of the year in year 3

Remember, the point of the exercise is "knowing what you know now, who would you have drafted."

It's fair to project the Giants would had the opportunity to pick an All Pro LT the next year.

Hypothetically the question is what group of players would you rather have.

Scenario A: Thomas, Thibs, Neal, Robinson, Bellinger, Waller

Scenario B: Slater, Thibs, Jefferson
Comparing scenarios is a good way to look at it.

I don’t really consider Robinson a part of the equation (we may have been able to draft him without the trade-up, or we would have gotten a comparable player if we stayed put). I guess 12% of ARob is appropriate for this exercise.

Slater’s been more injured than AT and Jefferson has been banged up as well. So injuries have benefitted staying with our players more than changing picks.

Salary also comes in to play as we payed for 2 useless seasons of KT + dead money (and coaching headaches while dealing with him). Waller is maligning significantly more than a rookie scale player. Neal/Bellinger contacts should hopefully make up for that.

Scenario 2 may also be Slater, Ickey/Neal, and Jefferson. We took Thibs 1st knowing that one of the elite T prospects would be available for our 2nd pick.

Either way, both teams did well and Philly ended up with Reagor so no complaints here!

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