Question about the free agent Giants who quit on Joe Judge

It was a sign something was rotten in Denmark. Judge was brutal and commanded zero respect.

He said the Giants would never win a Superbowl as long as Judge was the coach and we can't forget the Marc Columbo episode. Most of us defended Judge during these but it raises an interesting point.

However I think it was easy for a lot of us to just say "Hey, he's changing the culture and it's needed". That may be an accurate statement but obviously the ability to coach a football team is a pretty significant prerequisite that we were all duped on, from the owners to the fans.

Part of me wants an in depth expose on the last decade and especially the Judge years, part of me just wants to leave it.

They overwork the players....demand perfection....needs buy in....

Seems like the pressure built until it burst.

Judge certainly lost it

- Ted Lasso

In comment 16129049 Blue21 said:

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He said the Giants would never win a Superbowl as long as Judge was the coach and we can't forget the Marc Columbo episode. Most of us defended Judge during these but it raises an interesting point.

Didn't Andrew Thomas start to improve after Marc Columbo left the building? Wasn't the fall out something to do with how Columbo was coaching Thomas?

point to the QB sneaks as his downfall, but I still think it was those two weird, never-ending post-game pressers. In each, he went on and on and on after one specific question. I never saw anything like it.

You can say the stars were not aligned for him here, but he then goes back to New England, Belichick gives him a ton of responsibility with the offense, and the Patriots' offense goes into the tank.

and it doesn't tend to improve in the NFL. They're just all so well paid and celebrated in society, most just put up with it.

In comment 16129074 Gruber said:

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In comment 16129049 Blue21 said: Quote: He said the Giants would never win a Superbowl as long as Judge was the coach and we can't forget the Marc Columbo episode. Most of us defended Judge during these but it raises an interesting point. Didn't Andrew Thomas start to improve after Marc Columbo left the building? Wasn't the fall out something to do with how Columbo was coaching Thomas?

He did. People talk about how he made this huge leap in year 2, but Thomas actually started playing well down the stretch of his rookie year, after Columbo left and Gugs came in to coach him.

As for that causing Columbo's exit, I don't think its been firmly established as being over Thomas, but it seems as if Judge didn't trust Columbo and started micromanaging him. Columbo didn't like that, called him a name and that was the end of it.

the entire team didn't walk off the field during the three QB sneaks on their own side of the field...

They retired from the league never to return. I believe they decided their time was up. Judge was wound pretty tight. That was obvious and early on seemed pretty great. Both the fans and players were excited about him and his approach. He had support on the team. However, in the long run it just seemed to peter out and he lost his way. And don’t forget how terrible the personnel was. DG had made a very bad roster worse. Remember, it was only the second sneak that was too much. For any other team even one would have been absurd but not with our lack of talent.

In comment 16129083 Biteymax22 said:

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In comment 16129074 Gruber said: Quote: In comment 16129049 Blue21 said: Quote: He said the Giants would never win a Superbowl as long as Judge was the coach and we can't forget the Marc Columbo episode. Most of us defended Judge during these but it raises an interesting point. Didn't Andrew Thomas start to improve after Marc Columbo left the building? Wasn't the fall out something to do with how Columbo was coaching Thomas? He did. People talk about how he made this huge leap in year 2, but Thomas actually started playing well down the stretch of his rookie year, after Columbo left and Gugs came in to coach him. As for that causing Columbo's exit, I don't think its been firmly established as being over Thomas, but it seems as if Judge didn't trust Columbo and started micromanaging him. Columbo didn't like that, called him a name and that was the end of it.

I always wondered how Thomas started playing better in 2020, especially with Shane Lemieux next to him. I also think that Columbo came on Garrett's recommendation; he'd played under Garrett while he was OC for the Cowboys.

In comment 16129049 Blue21 said:

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He said the Giants would never win a Superbowl as long as Judge was the coach and we can't forget the Marc Columbo episode. Most of us defended Judge during these but it raises an interesting point.

Colombo can eat a dick.

He only held coaching jobs under Garrett. It’s likely one personnel call Judge got right.

Checkered career. He’s repeatedly been fired after a single season, including most recently by Boston College. His resume suggests he’s not good at his job. Thomas may not have received competent coaching at the pro level until 2022.

forever.

He QUIT on them, not the other way around.

Yep, agreed.

play anymore or not, and they took one look at Judge and say screw it. If they wanted to play for the coach they would have stayed.

In comment 16129077 Eric from BBI said:

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point to the QB sneaks as his downfall, but I still think it was those two weird, never-ending post-game pressers. In each, he went on and on and on after one specific question. I never saw anything like it. You can say the stars were not aligned for him here, but he then goes back to New England, Belichick gives him a ton of responsibility with the offense, and the Patriots' offense goes into the tank.

Agree about the press conferences. Reminds me of the quote Wink loves, pressure breaks pipes. Once serious adversity set in, Judge proved he couldn’t handle it. That was flat out embarrassing

Going back to end of his first season - we all loved this bc we hate the Eagles, but it wasn’t good form in coaching circles for Judge to publicly bash them for throwing that game at the end of the year. Even if he was right, he still handled it in kind of an immature manner

and Judge said the right things in his opening press conference after getting hired. I wanted to put a helmet on and run through a wall.

However, his approach to that culture change could not have been more wrong.

The way Bill does things is not always the approach of being an asshole.

I also saw Judge seemed to step on the toes of position coaches and potentially rewire what the coaches had been teaching.

In comment 16129065 George from PA said:

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They overwork the players....demand perfection....needs buy in.... Seems like the pressure built until it burst. Judge certainly lost it

This is spot on. BB's way looks great from the outside when its producing division title after division title and six superbowls. However, its not going to win over many professional players when the team is in the dumps. Lest we forget, the BB was hasn't been so successful (In Cleveland or New England) without a little know player named Tom Brady.

in none of those players returned to the NFL.

what happened with those OL. I soured on him after the first WFT game his second season.

Stress/pressure have broken many men/HC's and how one responds to it is a good indicator of leadership. I think as his second season played out he just fell apart and crumbled under that pressure.

we was not good when his demeanor broke down and he stopped saying all the right things

Eric is right about this -

but it becomes clearer and clearer, as time goes by, that this was the gang that could not shoot straight, the coaching staff was not well-equipped for the NFL, and that Judge was putting lipstick on a pig for much of his time in office

But Judge's pressers down the stretch in 2021 were just bizarre, full of empty catchphrases and rambling nonsense about improvement and process, as if he was a malfunctioning AI. I honestly think that if he just kept things cliched and uninteresting (i.e., "We've got to get better and it starts with me") he might have gotten one more season.

In comment 16129117 cosmicj said:

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Thomas may not have received competent coaching at the pro level until 2022.

Given that Judge, Graham and Garrett were here, it's fair to say that very few - if any - players received competent coaching at the pro level in 2020 AND 2021...

when we picked up Trey Junkins 😢

In comment 16129153 lax counsel said:

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In comment 16129065 George from PA said: Quote: They overwork the players....demand perfection....needs buy in.... Seems like the pressure built until it burst. Judge certainly lost it This is spot on. BB's way looks great from the outside when its producing division title after division title and six superbowls. However, its not going to win over many professional players when the team is in the dumps. Lest we forget, the BB was hasn't been so successful (In Cleveland or New England) without a little know player named Tom Brady.

Little Bill also had a demonstrated ability to lead men and scheme. He was carried off by the defensive players in the 86 season iirc. Joe Judge, not so much...

a terrible Bears team humiliated the Giants near the end of the 2021 season, the last Q&A at the post-game presser was this:

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Q. (No microphone.) Why did you have faith that you're going to get this turned out? I mean, people are just seeing -- under it now. So I guess what was your answer to that bit? JOE JUDGE: You know, we talk inside a lot. Okay? And I don't ever ask for patience from anybody. Let's get that clear right now. All right? And the fans have every right to have an opinion. That's why they're fans. They have every right. You buy a ticket, come to the stadium, you have every right to boo me going out of the stadium. That's the way it is. That's what we sign up for, right? And it's New York. It's supposed to be a tough place to be. Certain cities in this country, they don't even know if their teams playing today. All right? So you sign up for a job in a city like New York, you expect to have this. I never shied away from that. I ain't worried about that at all. When we talk internally, you look at a lot of things moving in the right direction and you know the targets of what you have to improve going forward. The important things is we know the direct targets of what you have to prove. And, no, I'm not going to go individually into these today. But we know the direct targets of what you got to hit. All right, and you look at what you got to make in a short turn to go ahead and make a quick turnaround to build the things you've done well. Right? And I say that all the time. There's things we've done well, we got to build on them, right? So we look at overall what we're doing, there's a number of things going in the right direction that we know that are foundational things, things you got to put in place for the team to have success, on and off the field. On and off the field. Okay? The important thing is when you have those direct targets, you got to find a way to minimize the things, okay, that you struggle with and you work your hardest to go ahead and make you give yourself and your team a chance for success by trying to take certain aspects away from the game so it can't expose you as a weakness. Okay, and you got to play to the strengths as much as possible. All right? There's certain aspects and things that, you know, see on tape from around the league. And I talk to the guys all the time. Look, this is about being a team and making sure you don't waste any opportunities. We're not sitting here being preachy. But I'm not going to tell you pointblank what I tell them. You guys always want to know what the hell we talk about all the time, I'll tell you pointblank what it is. All right, when the guys come to work on Wednesday, okay, and they bust their butt for you, and turn around on Thursday, and they're all committed doing extras in position units, doing extras individually to get their body right, they're doing everything going forward, okay, and they go out there and practice with good energy, good enthusiasm, and you know you're in the right position right there, okay, you know you got that aspect going right there. I talk to the players all the time, guys. I talk to them very openly and transparently. We don't even know have captains because a majority of our captains are no longer playing for the remainder of the season, so we do a leadership meeting now. I look at the guys at the end of the day and say, Guys, hey, listen, this is your time to talk to me, you speak for the team. You tell me what's going on. You tell me, How's the team? How's the beat of the team? What do I got to be aware of? What's something I don't know? Because everyone always tells me what I want to hear, right? So I ask someone just individually, I ask a player, they're going to tell me whatever I want to hear. I ask a coach the same type of thing. All right, I got to have a group of players who are going to look me in the eye, and they know I can tell Joe what exactly the hell is going on. So I got that core group of guys, right? You know, you look them in the eye and you ask one guy, he's the first one to speak up, I'm not going to individuals, they can talk amongst theirselves later on. But, you know, we had one guy say, I've never been in playoff contention, I never knew what it was like to be in a position where you're actually playing games not to be in the playoffs or improve seeding or whatever it may be or get into playoffs. You know, didn't what to expect and when we were officially eliminated it was almost an expectation of that player of how is everyone going to react? Kind of getting ready to come in to himself and get everyone rally the team a little bit. Okay? And that other player spoke up and said that they've never been in playoff contention period. They weren't present with us last year throughout the remainder of the season for a certain reason, to even be in it last year as a player on the stretch. But both guys had the same response, though. Everybody on the team is locked in. Everyone on the team comes in to work. Everybody comes in every week and is committed to doing it the right way and playing together as a team. Okay? There's a lot of teams right now that are out of playoff contention. Okay, whether it's golf clubs in the locker room, or people planning vacations outside of it. All right, there's a lot of finger pointing and blaming and shouting. All that type of stuff, right, all that stuff. You know what we have in our building, any of that. We don't got any of that. Any of that. Our guys know we have one more week this year to be this team. They know we have one more week this year to be this team. And they expect me to show up and give every ounce of football that I got in me this next week. You got that? They're getting everything out of me. But I expect the same in return. And I just told them that a second ago. That's what I expect. The expectation here is I expect every ounce of football you got inside of you. Okay? And there's things we have in line right now, there's thing we have in place where certain units are playing and certain players are playing and we got some foundational, core guys. We know the culture is strong. I'm going to tell you's right now. You guys always ask me about off the field stuff and why the hell is it so important to have culture, so I'm going to tell you right now, all right? A few years ago before I came here, when I came here and I sat down with all the players, I wanted to know what it was like in here, what we had to change from their mouths, all right, to a man every player looked me in the eye and said, Joe, it's not a team, they don't play hard, we're out of playoffs, everybody quit, everybody tapped, they stopped showing up to captains meetings, all that stuff. Right? They tapped out. Okay? I've been a part of teams in other places. And I'm not trying to make this place anywhere else I've been. But lessons I've learned: Let me tell you something right now, all right, in 2018, I was a part of a team who halfway through the season, all right, we were all pretty convinced we were getting fired. We didn't think we were going to make the playoffs, had no concept of anything was coming, we just showed up and kept improving to work week after week. And on the outside, we were we all terrible. But we didn't care about that any of that noise on the outside. We didn't care about it at all. What do you care about on the inside, what are you doing? They showed up, they fought, they worked. We were improving as a team and put things together, and make a run and, you know, ended up winning the championship. But the thing I really learned that year was, the importance of the culture inside, how important and valuable that is. Because I was part of more talented teams that came up short and lost games down the stretch. Much more talented, all right? But the one thing that really was solidified, in my mind, in my DNA that year in '18, was the fact that it's so much more important and how strong you are inside. Because no team goes through a smooth season. No team goes through a smooth season. So if you can go the junk we're going through right now, okay, as a team team, if you can go through the tough times we're going through right now as a team, all right, and have the defense take the field every single time ready to play, every time, all right, there's a lot of people that want to say, Hey, guys, you picked off the ball, they ran down the end zone, you guys are down big, right? So we can turn around and say, Yeah, get your butts back on the bench, we're down, we're not celebrating. You know what, though, they play every play with enthusiasm, every play with energy. Every play with each other. I want them to celebrate that. I want to see that energy and passion. That's how they practice every day. Okay? I want to see them play that way as well. That last fourth down they stopped them on, that's two games in a row where the game was over, we're out, it's done. Vegas is already paying out people. Like, that's done. All right? But that's two fourth downs in a row, two weeks in a row, that I'm sitting there and watching our defense finish the way they got to finish. Fourth down, stop them, shooting the gap and stopping them, a good wall going on the opposite side to stop the run. Hate dropping back into coverage and making that play right there on that little kind of Tebow walk, cat pass, or whatever the hell you want to call it right there. All right? So this ain't a team that's having fistfights on the sidelines. This ain't some clown show organization or something else. You talk about the foundation built, you talk about the things that -- the toughest thing to change in a team, the toughest thing to change in a club is the way people think. You understand that? That's the toughest thing. You can get new players, you can't get out of your damn locker room all you want, you got to change how people thinking. You got to change how they fucking -- pardon my -- how they believe in what you're doing. And then you got to trust the process. And that's a lot easier said than done, when they're looking up right now and you got one game left and the most games you're going to win is five this season. But I guarantee you this, those men are going to walk in on Wednesday and be ready to roll. We're going to practice hard on Wednesday, we're going to practice hard on Thursday, and we're going to practice hard on Friday. Okay? And we're going to play for each other on the field next week. If we don't play well, every fan has the right to boo my ass out of the stadium. You got that? That don't bother me. I don't think anyone wants to get booed. Okay? But the reality is that's all right. That's all right. They have that right. So the fans are -- and we go back to the first fart part, the fans are every bit right to ask what you're asking. 100 percent. Okay? 100 percent. And I get about a dozen e-mails a day, all right, six of which ask me exactly what you're asking, the other six offer full support the other way. Okay? To me, both are great. Both are great. Okay? Both are great. If you think I sit on back and and say what we're doing is good enough? No. It's not. But I know this, I know the first time I ever talked to you guys in front of the mic, what the hell did I talk about? Foundation, right? Talking about building from the ground up, building the right thing. Okay. Now, you guys ain't been in the building for two years now with this coach, right, but I'll tell you right now, all right, if you're in the damn building, you walk on through our locker room, you ain't seeing that crap you saw before. All right? You ain't seeing guys planning vacations, you ain't seeing golf clubs in front of players' locker. You ain't seeing that stuff. Okay? You ain't seeing it. All right, and that's not because of some high school program because we're cracking the whip. It's because our guys understand how to play together as a team and understand the process how we're going through. So I can go through a whole Xs and Os evaluation, I can go through a roster evaluation, I do it every day myself. I go through all that stuff. But in terms of the next step to take, I can tell you right now, okay, I know we're a whole lot closer where we're going than further away. I can tell you that right now. I can tell you we got more players here who are going to be free agents next year, all right, who are in my office every day begging to come back. Okay? I know that. Where player who we coached last year that still calling me twice a week talking about how much they wish they were still here and they're getting paid more somewhere else. Okay? So I know we've got the right foundational pieces there. I know we have some players in key positions who are guys that you can build with and keep carrying on. All right? I know we got the right temperament. I know we got the right culture in terms of teaching the players. Okay, which is why I don't come up here and try to assassinate some player because I think it's going to save my ass. Okay? Because behind closed doors, we shut those doors, I can tell every player, to a man, look them in the eye and tell him exactly what the hell he screwed up, exactly how it's got to get fixed, I got to tell him to hold him as accountable as can be. Because I ain't going to sit up here like some other cowards sitting behind the mic and put his players on blast. Okay? That's it. I signed up to be the head coach here. Whatever bull gets fired, they got fired for me. You got that? It's got to go through me to get to them. And that's the way it is. But, look, I'm not asking you to be patient. Trust me, guys. I'm not the most patient guy myself. I'm committed. I'm committed. All right? But I'm not the most patient guy myself. All right? But I am proud of the way these guys continue to fight and the effort they play with, all right, and the way they grind it out. Okay? But, again, the toughest thing to turn over in a program, the toughest to change is how people think, okay, how they think. And we got guys that are wired the right way. Okay, they're wired the right way.

That was ONE answer.

"This ain't some clown show organization or something else. "

needed to change. And he was also right in the weird sense that changing the culture was more important in the long run, than any specific season -- though you're still expected to compete without excuses, regardless.

And since I'm not affiliated with the team or the league, I can say he had PLENTY of excuses for why the product on the field sucked. LOADS of injuries, terrible OLs. Garrett's terrible offense (supposedly forced on him), a contentious relationship (we find out later) with a terrible GM where they were never on the same page. The pandemic his first season. It goes on and on. In many ways, I believe Judge was set up to fail.

That said, I don't think Judge was ever gonna be the guy to change the culture because he doesn't seem to relate to the modern players (the way Daboll does). OR work and play well with others (including his staff). Plus, how do you change the culture as a coach, when the GM is drafting low character losers like DeAndre Baker and Kadarius Toney?


The contrast between that time and what Schoen & Daboll bring is striking. Two guys in LOCK STEP, on the SAME PAGE about what they are doing. That's so vital, and a lesson Mara should have learned back in the George Young Dan Reeves days. Bringing in the right PEOPLE at ALL levels of the organization from scouts, to coaches to players. Judge didn't have that kind of freedom, and DG didn't like change.

That said those presser meltdowns were certainly part of his undoing.

In comment 16129259 Eric from BBI said:

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a terrible Bears team humiliated the Giants near the end of the 2021 season, the last Q&A at the post-game presser was this: That was ONE answer.

That was worse that I remembered.

to players and coaches.

Bill Parcells told us and taught us everything we'll ever need to know about the NFL.

"This is not a game for the most well-adjusted people” - Bill Parcells

that those players who quit were frogs jumping out of boiling water while they still had the chance.

When it comes to Judge,all some people needed was a whiff

In comment 16129264 Eric from BBI said:

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"This ain't some clown show organization or something else. "

She deserves a ton of credit. For real.

probably went on behind closed doors, too. Doubtful that he switched it off once he left the podium. While the PR is easier to handle for the inside the building stuff, management still sees it and starts thinking that maybe this isn't the guy for the future.

I think Judge's post game presser after the Bears game-which was off the rails loco-should be sent to the Smithsonian so future generations can watch a man dig in his own grave in real time.

when shit is untenable. We all do it.

No one is going to lay all out and risk body and limb for an untenable cause.

Players saw it in 2003, by week 7-8 or so. Players saw it in 2017, early. Players saw it in 2021, early.

It's why I give the Steeler and Tomlin so much credit the last couple of years. Despite a garbage offense that can move the ball that D of theirs keeps on banging the other team and they battled to a postseason or near postseason berth. Same thing with Coughlin's Giants in 2013. Most teams quit in that spot.

..

There was a scene early on in The Departed when Martin Sheen asks Leo if he wants to be a cop, or if he wants to appear to be cop. Joe Judge was great at appearing to be a head coach. A LOT of people on this site swooned over his press conferences from the very beginning.

There just wasn't anything more than words to him, though. Eventually, when he started getting real scrutiny, he fell to pieces and started launching into those bizarre, long-winded rants. Remember when he started babbling about supposedly hearing from players who had left the team who were dying to come back and play for him again? The hell was that supposed to be?

In comment 16129819 Greg from LI said:

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There was a scene early on in The Departed when Martin Sheen asks Leo if he wants to be a cop, or if he wants to appear to be cop. Joe Judge was great at appearing to be a head coach. A LOT of people on this site swooned over his press conferences from the very beginning.

he fooled a lot of people here but, then again, we're just fans wasting time who don't know any better.

What's alarming is how he fooled the guys running the team. Pretty scary that Mara thought both McAdoo and Judge were HC material.

In comment 16129065 George from PA said:

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They overwork the players....demand perfection....needs buy in.... Seems like the pressure built until it burst. Judge certainly lost it

This, you cannot try to be Bill until you win.

In comment 16129854 Enzo said:

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In comment 16129819 Greg from LI said: Quote: There was a scene early on in The Departed when Martin Sheen asks Leo if he wants to be a cop, or if he wants to appear to be cop. Joe Judge was great at appearing to be a head coach. A LOT of people on this site swooned over his press conferences from the very beginning. he fooled a lot of people here but, then again, we're just fans wasting time who don't know any better. What's alarming is how he fooled the guys running the team. Pretty scary that Mara thought both McAdoo and Judge were HC material.

To be fair, he even had Coach Tuna fooled for a while.

Bill Parcells Likes What He's Seeing from Joe Judge

In comment 16129047 mittenedman said:

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It was a sign something was rotten in Denmark. Judge was brutal and commanded zero respect.

________________________
Re: Benjamin. Didn’t he come to camp at higher weight than the team wanted? Sounds like they had another Darren Waller but wanted an Evan Engram. When he couldn’t make the weight goal, he was released to serve as an example.

Joe Judge but a lot of people are ignoring the fact that these retirements occurred in the midst of a largest pandemic in decades. Considering the fact that these guys left the league for good, the "negative" Joe Judge factor and people's ability to sniff him out on the first meeting is probably being overrated in this thread.