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Comparison of Giants who played dallas Nov '22 vs. now

Dr. D : 9/6/2023 11:44 am
Look at the players that started against the cowpies on Thanksgiving last yr (a game we were leading until about halfway into the 3rd Q):

Richie James WR
Lawrence Cager TE
Tyre Phillips OT
Jack Anderson G
Nick Gates C (coming back from horrific injury)
Oshane Ximines OLB
Jihad Ward OLB
Jaylon Smith OLB
Nick McCloud CB
Darnay Holmes CB
Julian Love S
Cordale Flott DB

Those were our starters! Forget about depth. We had none. Many of the "depth" guys we had, were starting.

Compare that to the starters this Sunday (I left out players who played on Thanksgiving last yr):

Parris Campbell WR
Darren Waller TE (only 1 of the top 3 or so TEs in the league when healthy and as of now, he's healthy)
Ben Bredeson OG (was injured)
JMS C
Evan Neal OT (healthy and hopefully improved)
Okereke ILB (huge upgrade)
Azeez Ojulari OLB (was injured)
Adoree Jackson NCB (was injured, now huge upgrade to cover Lamb in slot)
Banks CB
Tre Hawkins CB
McKinney S (was injured)

Then look at our depth (players who didn't play on Thanksgiving):

Jalin Hyatt WR
Sterling Shepard WR
Wan’Dale Robinson WR (prolly questionable)
Daniel Bellinger TE
Simmons LB
A’Shawn Robinson DE
Nacho NT
Boogie Basham LB
Belton S
+ some of the guys who started last yr.

I think some people are not fully appreciating how much better our roster is right now. Dallas is going to find out. Did they upgrade their roster THIS much?
No Dallas did not upgrade thier Roster as much  
Sec_149 : 9/6/2023 11:47 am : link
But honestly they did not have to upgrade the roster as much as we had to.
I think we are closer, but this should be a good game.
It’s night and day.  
mittenedman : 9/6/2023 11:47 am : link
Our starting ILBs week 1 last year were Tae Crowder and Austin Calitro.

Offensively, we were counting on Golladay, Toney, a rookie Bellinger and David Sills.

Thank God we don’t have to watch a JV team anymore. Thankful for Schoen & crew.
I'm confident we're more talented than we were  
DieHard : 9/6/2023 11:48 am : link
I'm not so confident that we're more talented in the areas that hurt us the most against the Cowboys (our O-line, talented but untested secondary and LBers vs their WRs and TEs).

Talent has never been the issue with the Cowboys -- if we win, it'll be because we're better coached and more disciplined than they are.
Regression  
Reale01 : 9/6/2023 11:48 am : link
Don't forget there will be regression.
you would be hard pressed to find  
Dave on the UWS : 9/6/2023 11:48 am : link
ANY team in the league who upgraded their roster this much.
Let's see what our coaching staff can do with actual NFL caliber talent.
Dallas did add Cooks and Gilmore - two top players. We improved more  
Ira : 9/6/2023 11:50 am : link
but, did we close the talent gap or just reduce it?
.  
ChrisRick : 9/6/2023 11:58 am : link
Nice post Doc. Actually seeing who the team was forced to put out there last match-up versus what we'll have out there Sunday is damn exciting!

Our OL  
uther99 : 9/6/2023 12:01 pm : link
is still weakness against Dallas strength. It all means nothing if Neal gets run around by Parsons/Lawrence
RE: Our OL  
ChrisRick : 9/6/2023 12:03 pm : link
In comment 16193380 uther99 said:
Quote:
is still weakness against Dallas strength. It all means nothing if Neal gets run around by Parsons/Lawrence


2 TE with Bellinger to help out Neal, Waller both split out and inline as a legit receiving threat. Last year if we used bellinger to help out the tackles there was no other threat at TE.
Time to stop the losing this Sunday night  
M.S. : 9/6/2023 12:06 pm : link

The past five seasons against Dallas have not been kind with just one single win out of ten (23 – 19 in Joe Judge’s first season as Head Coach.) The losing has to stop some time and the Giants have a real good chance to turn the table this Sunday night with so many arrows pointing in the right direction, starting with:

(1) Joe Schoen / Brian Daboll and their respective staffs;
(2) 2nd year for Daniel Jones in Daboll/Kafka offense;
(3) A significantly upgraded WR unit including TE Darren Waller;
(4) A deeper d-line (plus Bobby Okereke) to limit the run damage.

And the Giants will be that much closer to winning if:

(1) Evan Neal limits the carnage inflicted by Micah Parsons;
(2) Our rookie CBs avoid a rude awakening in their very first NFL game;
(3) We see the good Jamie Gillan, not the bad one.
our front 7 is light years better than last year.  
djm : 9/6/2023 12:08 pm : link
last year it was top heavy with Dex and Williams (when he was healthy) and Thibs was coming along while Ojulari was out most of the season. Both edges fought uphill all year due to missing so much time in the summer. You had nothing on the DL next to Dex and when Williams was out it was all but barren. No MIKE. No Simmons. No Boogie.

We're better. Now go out there and kick the fucking snot out of that POS franchise. One time. Just do it.
Let's hope this is the game where the Gaints are finally no longer  
Jack Stroud : 9/6/2023 12:11 pm : link
intimidated by the cowturds.
 
christian : 9/6/2023 12:13 pm : link
By November injuries had really set in, I think if you look at the game 1 starters, that's probably more apples-to-apples.

Daniel Jones QB
Saquon Barkley RB
David Sills WR
Sterling Shepard WR
Richie James WR
Daniel Bellinger TE
Jon Feliciano OL
Mark Glowinski OL
Evan Neal T
Andrew Thomas T
Ben Bredeson G

Justin Ellis DL
Dexter Lawrence DL
Nick Williams DL
Azeez Ojulari OLB
Kayvon Thibodeaux OLB
Tae Crowder LB
Austin Calitro LB
Adoree' Jackson CB
Julian Love S
Xavier McKinney S
Cordale Flott DB

The big upgrades in my view are the corners and pass catchers.

I think Schoen did a great job of recognizing what century he's in.
RE: …  
uther99 : 9/6/2023 12:17 pm : link
In comment 16193389 christian said:
Quote:
By November injuries had really set in, I think if you look at the game 1 starters, that's probably more apples-to-apples.


Much better comparison, and OL is nearly the same except for a rookie C this year.
Dallas fans  
BSIMatt : 9/6/2023 12:17 pm : link
and even many of the media analysts don't have a grasp on how injuries stacked the deck against the Giants a year ago. They really don't. They could have added literally nobody and just healed as a team and they'd be much improved over a year ago.
Dex and Williams  
HBart : 9/6/2023 12:23 pm : link
Played 63 snaps on Thanksgiving. That's 100% of an average game. (84%; Dallas had 75 plays, way above average). Their first 2nd half drive was something like 18 plays.

I guarantee one of Dallas's top 2nd half objectives was to gas the D. And they did.

The night and day depth difference on the DL is game changing in and of itself.

.  
ChrisRick : 9/6/2023 12:23 pm : link
I think the OP did fine making their point.
RE: …  
BSIMatt : 9/6/2023 12:25 pm : link
In comment 16193389 christian said:
Quote:
By November injuries had really set in, I think if you look at the game 1 starters, that's probably more apples-to-apples.

Daniel Jones QB
Saquon Barkley RB
David Sills WR
Sterling Shepard WR
Richie James WR
Daniel Bellinger TE
Jon Feliciano OL
Mark Glowinski OL
Evan Neal T
Andrew Thomas T
Ben Bredeson G

Justin Ellis DL
Dexter Lawrence DL
Nick Williams DL
Azeez Ojulari OLB
Kayvon Thibodeaux OLB
Tae Crowder LB
Austin Calitro LB
Adoree' Jackson CB
Julian Love S
Xavier McKinney S
Cordale Flott DB

The big upgrades in my view are the corners and pass catchers.

I think Schoen did a great job of recognizing what century he's in.


The Giants tied with the Redskins for fewest missed tackles in the league last year with 49. Tae Crowder had 5 alone in that first Dallas game. He played 6 snaps the second time we played Dallas. I'd add upgrade at MLB as well.
RE: Regression  
KeoweeFan : 9/6/2023 12:34 pm : link
In comment 16193369 Reale01 said:
Quote:
Don't forget there will be regression.


Using a fair coin, having seen 3 heads in a row, the odds of heads on the next throw is STILL 50 - 50.

There needs to be a lot of data points to assess whether the AVERAGE has or hasn't "regressed to the mean". This is a tool of after the fact analysis, not a tool for prediction.

The necessary condition to even evaluate the series is that nothing has changed. In fact if the average has shifted, that is an indicator that something HAS changed.

Sports writers using the concept of "regression" is silly.
RE: RE: Regression  
HBart : 9/6/2023 12:39 pm : link
In comment 16193402 KeoweeFan said:
Quote:
In comment 16193369 Reale01 said:


Quote:


Don't forget there will be regression.



Using a fair coin, having seen 3 heads in a row, the odds of heads on the next throw is STILL 50 - 50.

There needs to be a lot of data points to assess whether the AVERAGE has or hasn't "regressed to the mean". This is a tool of after the fact analysis, not a tool for prediction.

The necessary condition to even evaluate the series is that nothing has changed. In fact if the average has shifted, that is an indicator that something HAS changed.

Sports writers using the concept of "regression" is silly.

Yup. Regression isn't an expected outcome without some underlying reason. I don't know what that would be.

On the flip side, pretty much every returning Giant has commented at some point on being more comfortable and therefore and playing faster in the second year in system.
 
christian : 9/6/2023 12:42 pm : link
BSI, that's a good observation. The middle linebackers were very bad last year too.
RE: Dallas did add Cooks and Gilmore - two top players. We improved more  
cosmicj : 9/6/2023 12:44 pm : link
In comment 16193372 Ira said:
Quote:
but, did we close the talent gap or just reduce it?


I dispute calling Brandin Cooks a top player.
Like Daboll  
Lines of Scrimmage : 9/6/2023 1:22 pm : link
said, "Good teams start with good lines".

Having two impact players on the fronts is a good place to start. I am hoping for at least 5 impact players on the front 7 this season. OL still a very big question mark imv like it has been for a decade.

Rookie corners and skill players with a injury history is some concern but they appear to have more depth.

Nice effort Doc.
RE: RE: Dallas did add Cooks and Gilmore - two top players. We improved more  
christian : 9/6/2023 1:34 pm : link
In comment 16193416 cosmicj said:
Quote:
In comment 16193372 Ira said:


Quote:


but, did we close the talent gap or just reduce it?



I dispute calling Brandin Cooks a top player.


Cooks is one of the great mysteries in the NFL. Objectively good not great -- yet 3 first, a second, a third, a fourth, and two sixth round picks have been spent acquiring him in his career.
RE: Dallas did add Cooks and Gilmore - two top players. We improved more  
Dr. D : 9/6/2023 1:37 pm : link
In comment 16193372 Ira said:
Quote:
but, did we close the talent gap or just reduce it?

Gilmore was elite, but he's 33 and his best yr was 4 yrs ago. The cowpies are his 4th team since '20. That doesn't scream still elite, to me.

Cooks is 30 and his best yrs are probably behind him. At this stage of career, he might not be a big upgrade over the guy he's replacing, Noah Brown (who signed with Houston).

Not sure I would call either huge upgrades.
RE: .  
Dr. D : 9/6/2023 1:37 pm : link
In comment 16193376 ChrisRick said:
Quote:
Nice post Doc. Actually seeing who the team was forced to put out there last match-up versus what we'll have out there Sunday is damn exciting!

Thanks Chris! Yes it is damn exciting!
RE: Our OL  
Dr. D : 9/6/2023 1:48 pm : link
In comment 16193380 uther99 said:
Quote:
is still weakness against Dallas strength. It all means nothing if Neal gets run around by Parsons/Lawrence

I believe Neal is going to be much better and it's not just because I'm generally an optimist.

Neal has everything going for him. Besides his athletic talent, which most high picks have, he has: great coaching, great attitude (coachable), work ethic and desire. Guys who bust usually lack one or more of those things.

He might not be all pro this year, but I think he's going to be a lot better than last yr. I think he'll be good enough early in the season and improve as the yr goes on (in time for the eagles).
 
christian : 9/6/2023 1:53 pm : link
Even a marginally better performance from Neal would go a long way.

He was a game destroyer last year.
No question our roster is way stronger  
Bill in UT : 9/6/2023 3:27 pm : link
The question is how that will translate on the W/L ledger
RE: RE: Dallas did add Cooks and Gilmore - two top players. We improved more  
fanatic II : 9/6/2023 4:00 pm : link
In comment 16193489 Dr. D said:
Quote:
In comment 16193372 Ira said:


Quote:


but, did we close the talent gap or just reduce it?


Gilmore was elite, but he's 33 and his best yr was 4 yrs ago. The cowpies are his 4th team since '20. That doesn't scream still elite, to me.

Cooks is 30 and his best yrs are probably behind him. At this stage of career, he might not be a big upgrade over the guy he's replacing, Noah Brown (who signed with Houston).

Not sure I would call either huge upgrades.


The trades for Gilmore and Cook were seen as the best moves of the off season by more than few pundits.

At the end of the year the addition of Gilmore and Cook will be seen as a major reason for Dallas's success this year.
RE: RE: RE: Dallas did add Cooks and Gilmore - two top players. We improved more  
Dr. D : 9/6/2023 4:18 pm : link
In comment 16193603 fanatic II said:
Quote:
In comment 16193489 Dr. D said:


Quote:


In comment 16193372 Ira said:


Quote:


but, did we close the talent gap or just reduce it?


Gilmore was elite, but he's 33 and his best yr was 4 yrs ago. The cowpies are his 4th team since '20. That doesn't scream still elite, to me.

Cooks is 30 and his best yrs are probably behind him. At this stage of career, he might not be a big upgrade over the guy he's replacing, Noah Brown (who signed with Houston).

Not sure I would call either huge upgrades.



The trades for Gilmore and Cook were seen as the best moves of the off season by more than few pundits.

At the end of the year the addition of Gilmore and Cook will be seen as a major reason for Dallas's success this year.

more than a few pundits always love the cowpies.

I guess we'll see in a few nights, huh?

Until then, this cowpie is for you, cowpie fanatic number II:




Losing Bellinger  
cjac : 9/6/2023 4:22 pm : link
And McKinney really hurt the team mid season last year

Hopefully we can stay relatively healthy this season
RE: …  
RCPhoenix : 9/6/2023 4:32 pm : link
In comment 16193412 christian said:
Quote:
BSI, that's a good observation. The middle linebackers were very bad last year too.


The Giants gave up an average of 5.2 yards per carry on the ground last year (tied with Lions for next to last). That's in large part b/c the ILBs were terrible and we had no depth at DT.

It really is hard to overstate how bad they were at ILB - they could not stop power/gap rushing concepts. Having Okereke is to me the most important addition to the defense.

If the Giants can stop the run I like their chances against Dak.
RE: RE: RE: Dallas did add Cooks and Gilmore - two top players. We improved more  
Dr. D : 9/6/2023 4:40 pm : link
In comment 16193603 fanatic II said:
Quote:
In comment 16193489 Dr. D said:


Quote:


In comment 16193372 Ira said:


Quote:


but, did we close the talent gap or just reduce it?


Gilmore was elite, but he's 33 and his best yr was 4 yrs ago. The cowpies are his 4th team since '20. That doesn't scream still elite, to me.

Cooks is 30 and his best yrs are probably behind him. At this stage of career, he might not be a big upgrade over the guy he's replacing, Noah Brown (who signed with Houston).

Not sure I would call either huge upgrades.


btw, cowpie fanatic number II, it's all in fun. I'm a lover, not a fighter. And I grew up on a dairy farm, so I'm very familiar with cow pies. They're how I learned about the indestructible nature of corn. Corn today, corn tomorrow.



Don't forget Korey Cunningham  
HBart : 9/6/2023 4:41 pm : link
He got into one game last season. One terrible game. Dallas on Thanksgiving. His 10 plays were not pretty.
No Zeke either  
Paulie Walnuts : 9/6/2023 5:13 pm : link
That guy killed us for years
That week 3 game  
nygiants16 : 9/6/2023 5:16 pm : link
The Giants had David Sills as their number 1 receiver..

Crowder and Jaylon Smith starting at ILB..

No Leonard Williams..

KT and Ojulari's first game of the season
That 2022 lineup listed in the OP is pretty eye-opening  
DieHard : 9/6/2023 5:25 pm : link
Next time someone criticizes the Giants and/or individual Giants players for "fading" down the stretch last year, present them with that lineup and say, "OK, win against teams like Dallas and Philly with THAT."
Nice OP Dr. D  
ColHowPepper : 9/6/2023 7:02 pm : link
and the point you make is robust!!

No one will convince me Richie James was not valuable to LAST year's team, a player
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/6/2023 7:07 pm : link
I think we have a good shot @ winning this weekend, but some of the vibes I'm getting from fellow BBIers, that this game is going to be a cakewalk...I don't get. Dallas is a damn good football team. It's not going to be easy at all.
RE: That week 3 game  
djm : 9/6/2023 7:22 pm : link
In comment 16193693 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
The Giants had David Sills as their number 1 receiver..

Crowder and Jaylon Smith starting at ILB..

No Leonard Williams..

KT and Ojulari's first game of the season


Right and don’t forget Thibs and Ojulari missed most of camp.

This time last season and through the first month the giants had nothing at edge. It was only when Thibs started getting his sea legs that we had one live body at edge.

The giants are so much better than last season. At every unit, so much better and yes I’m including corner. We have the same corners as last season PLUS 2 rookies who had awesome camps yet the talkies insist that the corners are a problem.
RE: Nice OP Dr. D  
Dr. D : 9/6/2023 8:23 pm : link
In comment 16193788 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
and the point you make is robust!!

No one will convince me Richie James was not valuable to LAST year's team, a player

Thanks ColHowPepper! No one has ever told me the point I made is robust! I like it!
RE: ...  
Dr. D : 9/6/2023 8:25 pm : link
In comment 16193792 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
I think we have a good shot @ winning this weekend, but some of the vibes I'm getting from fellow BBIers, that this game is going to be a cakewalk...I don't get. Dallas is a damn good football team. It's not going to be easy at all.

I'm not saying it's going to be a cake walk, but I think we're going to win
RE: Time to stop the losing this Sunday night  
Sean : 9/6/2023 9:49 pm : link
In comment 16193386 M.S. said:
Quote:

The past five seasons against Dallas have not been kind with just one single win out of ten (23 – 19 in Joe Judge’s first season as Head Coach.) The losing has to stop some time and the Giants have a real good chance to turn the table this Sunday night with so many arrows pointing in the right direction, starting with:

(1) Joe Schoen / Brian Daboll and their respective staffs;
(2) 2nd year for Daniel Jones in Daboll/Kafka offense;
(3) A significantly upgraded WR unit including TE Darren Waller;
(4) A deeper d-line (plus Bobby Okereke) to limit the run damage.

And the Giants will be that much closer to winning if:

(1) Evan Neal limits the carnage inflicted by Micah Parsons;
(2) Our rookie CBs avoid a rude awakening in their very first NFL game;
(3) We see the good Jamie Gillan, not the bad one.

Welcome back, MS!
Thanks Sean!  
M.S. : 9/7/2023 8:04 am : link

Hope you’re having a nice summer!

So much to be excited about this season. What a breath of fresh air Joe Schoen & Brian Daboll have been.
The big difference for Cowboys this Sunday is that Gallup is 2 years  
Rick in Dallas : 9/7/2023 9:17 am : link
Removed from his knee surgery.
By all accounts he looks fully recovered.
He was totally rushed back last year.
RE: The big difference for Cowboys this Sunday is that Gallup is 2 years  
M.S. : 9/7/2023 9:23 am : link
In comment 16194051 Rick in Dallas said:
Quote:
Removed from his knee surgery.
By all accounts he looks fully recovered.
He was totally rushed back last year.

Dallas will be tough nut to crack. Not only do they have a fine passing game, they are just as adept running the ball. In two games against the Giants last season, Dallas averaged 173 yards rushing per game which allowed them to dominate the time of possession. I'm feeling pretty good about the Giants run defense between the tackles, but Ojulari and Thibodeaux need to hold the edge as well.
RE: The big difference for Cowboys this Sunday is that Gallup is 2 years  
BSIMatt : 9/7/2023 9:23 am : link
In comment 16194051 Rick in Dallas said:
Quote:
Removed from his knee surgery.
By all accounts he looks fully recovered.
He was totally rushed back last year.


Cowboys fans are sky high on their receivers right now..some even clamoring for Tolbert over Gallup(Tolbert had a great camp after a disappointing rookie year). Should be fun.
RE: RE: Regression  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/7/2023 9:24 am : link
In comment 16193402 KeoweeFan said:
Quote:
In comment 16193369 Reale01 said:


Quote:


Don't forget there will be regression.



Using a fair coin, having seen 3 heads in a row, the odds of heads on the next throw is STILL 50 - 50.

There needs to be a lot of data points to assess whether the AVERAGE has or hasn't "regressed to the mean". This is a tool of after the fact analysis, not a tool for prediction.

The necessary condition to even evaluate the series is that nothing has changed. In fact if the average has shifted, that is an indicator that something HAS changed.

Sports writers using the concept of "regression" is silly.

Fans referencing the term without even a basic understanding of what it means, as the post you replied to did, is even sillier.
RE: RE: RE: Regression  
Reale01 : 9/8/2023 2:39 am : link
In comment 16194057 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 16193402 KeoweeFan said:


Quote:


In comment 16193369 Reale01 said:


Quote:


Don't forget there will be regression.



Using a fair coin, having seen 3 heads in a row, the odds of heads on the next throw is STILL 50 - 50.

There needs to be a lot of data points to assess whether the AVERAGE has or hasn't "regressed to the mean". This is a tool of after the fact analysis, not a tool for prediction.

The necessary condition to even evaluate the series is that nothing has changed. In fact if the average has shifted, that is an indicator that something HAS changed.

Sports writers using the concept of "regression" is silly.


Fans referencing the term without even a basic understanding of what it means, as the post you replied to did, is even sillier.


I was kidding. People say the Giants won more than their share of close games last year and will not be able to sustain that - thus a worse record - fail to realize that it is not the same team and therefore saying they will regress is not relevant to this year. The eagles were 7-1 in close games last year - will they regress? Last year's teams may not win as many games vs this year's schedule. But this is not last year's team.
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