Last night the Chiefs had:
• The best QB in the game
• Arguably, the best offensive mind/playcaller in the game
• A tremendous offensive line
• Playing a defense that is in the bottom 3rd of the league
• One of the best home field advantages in the game
However, their skill position players looked eerily similar to the 2022 Giants
• Kadarious Toney
• Richie James
• Valdes Scantling = Slayton
• Noah Gray = Bellinger
So despite having advantages that very few teams have, the Chiefs offense looked unremarkable last night. This is not to say that DJ and Mahomes are in the same league or that Mahomes played poorly last night but it reinforces what many people have said about DJ. It has been difficult to totally evaluate him because no QB could look good as the 2022 NYG quarterback.
Humphrey is a stud, Thuney is still decent (although on the decline for sure). The other three are mediocre at best. OL is a big concern for Chiefs this year.
That said, GREAT point.
I agree — this definitely validates talent around you matters. But still, take away one Toney-dropped pass, and Mahomes stat line changes dramatically. They continue the drive and probably get a field goal.
Mahomes looked great. His receivers sucked. DJ would’ve had worse results, albeit I do believe in DJ to lead this Giant team. He’s a top-10 QB this year.
I agree — this definitely validates talent around you matters. But still, take away one Toney-dropped pass, and Mahomes stat line changes dramatically. They continue the drive and probably get a field goal.
That is my point. Perfect pass to Toney and it is a pick 6. Again, I am not saying Mahomes and DJ are in the same league or that Mahomes played poorly but how many times has that sort of thing happened to DJ? Thank you very much Evan Engram.
Good times.
I wish we had a true #1 WR and one more top OL but hey you can't have everything.
We are pointing out that the surrounding cast matters. It was more a responsive to the Jones debate, where people would constantly say that it was Jones fault for not elevating the "Toneys" around him.
KC had to throw to non elite receivers who drop passes and turn catches into turnovers. They lost an elite TE in Kelce who is Mahomes go to guy. The Giants acquired an elite TE go to guy in Waller, and their non elite receivers are better than last year. We will finally get to see who the real Daniel Jones is and he did show well in his one preseason game against Detroit and he looked better than how KC fared against Detroit's defense. I might also add that Detroit significantly improved their defense from last year.
KC had to play without their star DL, and so they couldn't stop the run. The Giants couldn't stop the run last year, but this year they are healthier and have acquired more depth.
KC normally has superior coaching, but the lack of talent forced their coach to go for a ridiculous 4th and 25! The Giants also have superior coaching, but Daboll would never be that dumb!
Watch what our offense does with Waller. It makes everyone better.
I think it's going to be a pull back year for KC and are going to need to retool in the off-season.
Highest drop rate since '21 among WR with 75 targets
Kadarius Toney 9.7%
Jauan Jennings 9.6%
Darius Slayton 9.3%
Sterling Shepard 9.1%
When JR Smith was the fourth option on the Cavs, he’s pretty good. When Toney was a guy the Chiefs could just let chill until he was healthy and dust him off for the playoffs, he made plays. The second you really start needing consistency of effort and performance from them, they fold.
Highest drop rate since '21 among WR with 75 targets
Kadarius Toney 9.7%
Jauan Jennings 9.6%
Darius Slayton 9.3%
Sterling Shepard 9.1%
The concerning thing here is 3 Giants in the top 4
Watch what our offense does with Waller. It makes everyone better.
It is not an omission at all. I was comparing Chiefs last night to the 2022 Giants. 2022 Giants did not have Waller.
Good times.
Just last year, some hardcore DJ critics (I know they hate the word "hater") were saying his weapons were just fine. Right. If they were, WTF did Schoen trade for Waller, sign FA Campbell and trade up to draft Hyatt? If the weapons he had were just fine?
The argument that his weapons were fine or irrelevant to DJ's performance (passing stats) never made any sense. But some vehemently argued it.
Good times.
Straw man.
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Kadarius Toney has 8 drops on 82 career targets, the highest drop rate (9.7%) in the NFL since he entered in 2021,among 105 WR with 75+ targets
Highest drop rate since '21 among WR with 75 targets
Kadarius Toney 9.7%
Jauan Jennings 9.6%
Darius Slayton 9.3%
Sterling Shepard 9.1%
The concerning thing here is 3 Giants in the top 4
The Giants sure like WRs w the dropsies.
I'm sorry yesterday's game doesn't move the needle in terms of how close DJ is to Mahomes..
After Jones was hurt, they turned into a clown show. Went 0-6 and got blowed TF out of every remaining game.
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There was a period of about 2 years where BBI claimed it didn't matter who the weapons were, and that DJ needed to make them better.
Good times.
Straw man.
How do you figure this is a strawman? It's completely true.
Everyone in NFL media was on twitter last night saying "wow, Patrick Mahomes is going to have a tough time winning with these weapons." Mike Tirico even made a point to say that the Lions win had an ASTERISK because they were missing Kelce.
And yet, when Jones had arguably the worst weapons in the entire league for a 2 year period, almost nobody on this board realized it wasn't his fault.
Watch what our offense does with Waller. It makes everyone better.
I think you're missing the point. The fact Kelce didn't play is part of the point. The chiefs weapons without him, look kind of like the Giants last yr. Not great.
And yet, on the thread last night, everyone was in agreement that Mahomes was screwed.
I will say it might have only been a VERY vocal minority. But it was there. ALL the freaking time.
Toney dropped a pass with 2 minutes to go that would have put them in FG range
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with about 8 min to go. I kind of assumed the chiefs would still win. Hard to believe Mahomes couldn't even get them into FG range. Weapons matter
Toney dropped a pass with 2 minutes to go that would have put them in FG range
Thanks for the info. Double ouch
Good times.
I was thinking this. But didn’t post about it because debating Daniel with those guys is just not worth it.
But I m pretty certain that Jones having a similar game last night would have been interpreted by some in a negative manner
People seem to over look how ineffective Mahomes was in a Super Bowl not too long ago when his offensive line was decimated
People see what they want to see
^^^^This
Funny you have to point that out on a football discussion board.
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There was a period of about 2 years where BBI claimed it didn't matter who the weapons were, and that DJ needed to make them better.
Good times.
I was thinking this. But didn’t post about it because debating Daniel with those guys is just not worth it.
But I m pretty certain that Jones having a similar game last night would have been interpreted by some in a negative manner
People seem to over look how ineffective Mahomes was in a Super Bowl not too long ago when his offensive line was decimated
People see what they want to see
Yup.
And while Mahomes is otherworldly and the best QB in the league -- I know this is sacrilege -- DJ is a more accurate passer. As one of the anonymous NFL execs quoted in of the pre-season polls said, DJ just doesn't miss.
DJ - even going back to college - has never had a Go To Guy.
He does now.
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The rest of the team matters. It really does.
^^^^This
Funny you have to point that out on a football discussion board.
Thank God most of the people that don't understand that tucked their tails and disappeared. I don't think you were here duing that time, but it was pathetic and pretty much ruined this message board.
And now, when the team is good, these "Giants fans" are gone.
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The rest of the team matters. It really does.
^^^^This
Funny you have to point that out on a football discussion board.
What was really annoying (to me) is that the opinion was declared with such arrogant certainty. The opinion was never prefaced with "I think" or "in my opinion"...
The "QB experts" just knew. And if you couldn't see that Jones was the problem, you're just not as astute.
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In comment 16195423 Johnny5 said:
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The rest of the team matters. It really does.
^^^^This
Funny you have to point that out on a football discussion board.
Thank God most of the people that don't understand that tucked their tails and disappeared. I don't think you were here duing that time, but it was pathetic and pretty much ruined this message board.
And now, when the team is good, these "Giants fans" are gone.
Oh, I was here... lol
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In comment 16195423 Johnny5 said:
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The rest of the team matters. It really does.
^^^^This
Funny you have to point that out on a football discussion board.
Thank God most of the people that don't understand that tucked their tails and disappeared. I don't think you were here duing that time, but it was pathetic and pretty much ruined this message board.
And now, when the team is good, these "Giants fans" are gone.
Some of them are still here, but they're distancing themselves from those views.
One is actually predicting good things for Jones this year, but he's already giving credit to the new weapons; not Jones.
The new superior weapons are going to get the credit for Jones good passing stats this yr, but the inferior weapons got no blame for their role in Jones' less than spectacular passing stats in the past. Make sense?
Btw, same thing happened in their Super Bowl loss to the Bucs. I thought Mahomes play during that rout was otherworldly good at times. In fact, if I had to name the best incomplete throw I’d ever seen, I’d point to a 2nd half throw into the end zone by Mahomes in that loss.
It’s possibly to evaluate QB play independently of skill player play. I grant that the effect of bad OL play and constant pressure muddies things.
Btw, same thing happened in their Super Bowl loss to the Bucs. I thought Mahomes play during that rout was otherworldly good at times. In fact, if I had to name the best incomplete throw I’d ever seen, I’d point to a 2nd half throw into the end zone by Mahomes in that loss.
It’s possibly to evaluate QB play independently of skill player play. I grant that the effect of bad OL play and constant pressure muddies things.
That Super Bowl by Mahomes is probably the best "bad stats but good play" performance I've seen by a QB, given how badly his offensive line was overwhelemed.
Last night, he frankly wasn't that great. Even without the Toney drops, he was off-target on crucial throws to other receivers. We'll see if that was the result of not having gained enough chemistry yet with his new guys, or if it's a portent of things to come.
Because some of us defended him and pointed how how bad his coaching, play calling, OL and weapons were for the 2 yrs prior to '22, we should sleep with him?
Some of us simply defended him when others were saying on a hourly basis, that he sucks and all the shit going against him (that was out of his control) was just excuses.
So defending someone means you want to sleep with him?
Don't think so. Besides I'm happily married to a beautiful woman, thank you very much.
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From Mahomes. No one is blaming the QB for this.
Btw, same thing happened in their Super Bowl loss to the Bucs. I thought Mahomes play during that rout was otherworldly good at times. In fact, if I had to name the best incomplete throw I’d ever seen, I’d point to a 2nd half throw into the end zone by Mahomes in that loss.
It’s possibly to evaluate QB play independently of skill player play. I grant that the effect of bad OL play and constant pressure muddies things.
That Super Bowl by Mahomes is probably the best "bad stats but good play" performance I've seen by a QB, given how badly his offensive line was overwhelemed.
Last night, he frankly wasn't that great. Even without the Toney drops, he was off-target on crucial throws to other receivers. We'll see if that was the result of not having gained enough chemistry yet with his new guys, or if it's a portent of things to come.
You re probably right about the Super Bowl but quarterbacks do get judged by stats. It s not fair, but it happens, i. e. the Jones detractors focus on 1 stat when judging last season
This type of comment makes me scratch my head. Truly. Just a bizarre take.
You re probably right about the Super Bowl but quarterbacks do get judged by stats. It s not fair, but it happens, i. e. the Jones detractors focus on 1 stat when judging last season
15
will be interesting when that doubles this year.
I think you need to, to prove your loyalty to him:)
That's simply not true. Some yes. But many constantly trotted out the "great QBs make chicken salad out of chicken shit" BS argument.
The play, but also the human appearance is basically indiscernible.
With the helmet off basically twins.
Why? Because it was clear the Mahomes was making the right play, but not getting the dividends. Which is why QBR is a solid metric.
Why? Because it was clear the Mahomes was making the right play, but not getting the dividends. Which is why QBR is a solid metric.
Interesting. So does the fact that Jones was tied for #6 in QBR last yr (ahead of a few QBs considered "elite"), mean he was pretty good last yr (despite the quality of his weapons)?
You don't have to answer. I know the answer.
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Mahomes had a 72.5 QBR last night. Higher than Goff's.
Why? Because it was clear the Mahomes was making the right play, but not getting the dividends. Which is why QBR is a solid metric.
Interesting. So does the fact that Jones was tied for #6 in QBR last yr (ahead of a few QBs considered "elite"), mean he was pretty good last yr (despite the quality of his weapons)?
You don't have to answer. I know the answer.
I have repeatedly acknowledged that Jones had a quality year.
But keep thinking otherwise if it makes you feel better...
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You re probably right about the Super Bowl but quarterbacks do get judged by stats. It s not fair, but it happens, i. e. the Jones detractors focus on 1 stat when judging last season
15
will be interesting when that doubles this year.
I’m a big DJ fan but I’d take Mohomes with their O (no kelce, but with kt permanently benched) over DJ and ours. The guy is so freakin’ good.
Why? Because it was clear the Mahomes was making the right play, but not getting the dividends. Which is why QBR is a solid metric.
That is a big part of my point.
Mahomes is elite
Reid is elite
OL is good
Top 3 home field advantage
Playing against an average defense
...and the offense still looked meh.
Mahomes is better than DJ, much better. But what would the NYG offense have looked like if you had subbed Mahomes for DJ? My guess is that it would have been better but still pretty pedestrian.
Btw, same thing happened in their Super Bowl loss to the Bucs. I thought Mahomes play during that rout was otherworldly good at times. In fact, if I had to name the best incomplete throw I’d ever seen, I’d point to a 2nd half throw into the end zone by Mahomes in that loss.
It’s possibly to evaluate QB play independently of skill player play. I grant that the effect of bad OL play and constant pressure muddies things.
“Toney’s 3 drops each happened on a perfectly placed ball”
Actually the second one was low and the third one was behind Toney. Should have been caught but not perfectly placed balls.
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From Mahomes. No one is blaming the QB for this.
Btw, same thing happened in their Super Bowl loss to the Bucs. I thought Mahomes play during that rout was otherworldly good at times. In fact, if I had to name the best incomplete throw I’d ever seen, I’d point to a 2nd half throw into the end zone by Mahomes in that loss.
It’s possibly to evaluate QB play independently of skill player play. I grant that the effect of bad OL play and constant pressure muddies things.
That Super Bowl by Mahomes is probably the best "bad stats but good play" performance I've seen by a QB, given how badly his offensive line was overwhelemed.
Last night, he frankly wasn't that great. Even without the Toney drops, he was off-target on crucial throws to other receivers. We'll see if that was the result of not having gained enough chemistry yet with his new guys, or if it's a portent of things to come.
You think? He looked like the same old Mahomes to me. His pocket presence is just uncanny, and he was showing that is spades last night. I did notice a couple of off throws but hard to know who to pin that on, him or the WRs. Toney single-handedly pulled the W from KC's grasp last night IMO.
Sleep with Jones Greg? Not with those thumbs. He is a hell of a QB though IMO. Mahomes he is not but he is a very good QB.
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In comment 16195587 bw in dc said:
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Mahomes had a 72.5 QBR last night. Higher than Goff's.
Why? Because it was clear the Mahomes was making the right play, but not getting the dividends. Which is why QBR is a solid metric.
Interesting. So does the fact that Jones was tied for #6 in QBR last yr (ahead of a few QBs considered "elite"), mean he was pretty good last yr (despite the quality of his weapons)?
You don't have to answer. I know the answer.
I have repeatedly acknowledged that Jones had a quality year.
But keep thinking otherwise if it makes you feel better...
Sorry, I know you've come around to be more positive about him and maybe I'm mistaken that you were in the Jones hardcore critic club and this time last yr said all the crap going against him were just excuses and that we'd be drafting his replacement this past May.
Sorry, I know you've come around to be more positive about him and maybe I'm mistaken that you were in the Jones hardcore critic club and this time last yr said all the crap going against him were just excuses and that we'd be drafting his replacement this past May.
I was hugely critical of Jones when we drafted him, after year one, after year two and after year three. Indeed, I was a hardcore critic.
But Dabka built on offense that maximized DK's skills and he executed it. So, credit where credit is due.
I actually think Jones is going to be under the gun again in 2023. As christian has pointed out, the Jones contract is looking more and more team friendly and there is a very accessible exit ramp early in that contract...
That is a big part of my point.
Mahomes is elite
Reid is elite
OL is good
Top 3 home field advantage
Playing against an average defense
...and the offense still looked meh.
Mahomes is better than DJ, much better. But what would the NYG offense have looked like if you had subbed Mahomes for DJ? My guess is that it would have been better but still pretty pedestrian.
Let's at least tap the breaks here. It's game one. I don't want to make the leap that what we saw last night from the Chiefs is going the standard going forward. That's just not wise.
So, before we go making these assertions that Mahomes could barely make our offense better than what Jones did from '19 to '21, I have a strong feeling the Chiefs are going to figure this thing out.
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Sorry, I know you've come around to be more positive about him and maybe I'm mistaken that you were in the Jones hardcore critic club and this time last yr said all the crap going against him were just excuses and that we'd be drafting his replacement this past May.
I was hugely critical of Jones when we drafted him, after year one, after year two and after year three. Indeed, I was a hardcore critic.
But Dabka built on offense that maximized DK's skills and he executed it. So, credit where credit is due.
I actually think Jones is going to be under the gun again in 2023. As christian has pointed out, the Jones contract is looking more and more team friendly and there is a very accessible exit ramp early in that contract...
ok, so I wasn't mistaken.
And yes "Dabka" being competent coaches and play callers was part of the shitfest that needed to be corrected.
I suspect Jones contract will be an ongoing thing, but not because of the exit ramp. It will be restructured and extended in the next 2-3 yrs.
Toney certainly lost the game. He was horrible.
Toney is the type of player if you're having a pickup game, he's your first pick because he'll be a magician for those couple hours.
But in a "team" setting, where you need to be accountable every day, and practice, and be a good teammate.....he's NEVER going to make it.
Great move getting him out of here.
I like defending Jones but this isn't necessarily the right time to do so.
I keep going back to the same shit I have been saying since March or so. How many fucking metrics do people need to conclude that Jones should be in the convo of top 10 or so QBs in the game? Not that I even care about top ten debates because these debates are stupid, subjective and pointless, but Jones did the following in 2022:
--Finished with a winning record and won a playoff game (which means he did something that about 24 other QBs couldn't do.
--Finished around 8th in FF QB scoring. That means 24 other QBs were worse. That means approx 4-5 FF owners should have been starting Jones in 12 team FF leagues. Wanna bet those same owners were NOT starting Jones? Why? Perception and locked in stubborn POVs.
--Did this all with a subpar OL AND subpar receiving core and subpar TEs and below average defense. Also led the NYG offense to an above average finish.
By virtually EVERY metric, Jones was a top 10 QB but hey, he didn't throw 30 Tds and he didn't throw for 4600 yards. Never mind the other important shit.
If we cannot go by NFL wins and playoff wins and FF stats I give up.
I am so glad that the season begins in two days so the tired excuses for crappy quarterback play can now fade into oblivion. Two things can be true - the receivers can be bad AND the quarterback can be bad. But since we now have a solid offensive line and a litany of weapons, unequivocally the fastest group of offensive playmakers we have ever seen (on both sides of the ball by the way), there are no more excuses.
So DJ is now either a top ten quarterback or he isn't. If he is, I think we can all agree that everyone in Giants fandom will be thrilled. This team can not only be a playoff team, but with the leadership and coaching now in place, it is a team that could arguably make a deep run in the playoffs.
If DJ isn't a top ten quarterback, it is highly likely that the team will not only not make the playoffs, but given the schedule difficulty, the team will probably have a losing record and possibly be drafting in the top ten again next year.
I would say that everyone in Giants fandom will then be beyond sick to their stomachs with disgust at the fact that we will be paying a ransom to a middling talent who will occupy approx twenty percent of the cap next year, but I know this fandom only too well. I can already hear the unmistakable refrains of "stats don't matter", "Neal is a turnstile", "no offensive line depth", "Waller and Campbell always get hurt" etc, etc, echoing in the hills of East Rutherford...
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Sorry, I know you've come around to be more positive about him and maybe I'm mistaken that you were in the Jones hardcore critic club and this time last yr said all the crap going against him were just excuses and that we'd be drafting his replacement this past May.
I was hugely critical of Jones when we drafted him, after year one, after year two and after year three. Indeed, I was a hardcore critic.
But Dabka built on offense that maximized DK's skills and he executed it. So, credit where credit is due.
I actually think Jones is going to be under the gun again in 2023. As christian has pointed out, the Jones contract is looking more and more team friendly and there is a very accessible exit ramp early in that contract...
Well it proves one thing. Proves that you wealthy college boys don't have the education enough to admit if you're wrong.
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That is a big part of my point.
Mahomes is elite
Reid is elite
OL is good
Top 3 home field advantage
Playing against an average defense
...and the offense still looked meh.
Mahomes is better than DJ, much better. But what would the NYG offense have looked like if you had subbed Mahomes for DJ? My guess is that it would have been better but still pretty pedestrian.
Let's at least tap the breaks here. It's game one. I don't want to make the leap that what we saw last night from the Chiefs is going the standard going forward. That's just not wise.
So, before we go making these assertions that Mahomes could barely make our offense better than what Jones did from '19 to '21, I have a strong feeling the Chiefs are going to figure this thing out.
My guess is that they figure it out right around the exact time Travis Kelce comes back.
Did you read the post?
I have said multiple times that DJ is not in Mahomes league and I dont think Mahomes did not play poorly last night.
It appears that you COMPLETELY missed the point which was, even with an elite QB, elite play caller, home field advantage against a middling defense you still skill players to produce offensively.
It's implied. Don't play dumb.
This default position of yours that those of us trying to project what we need in PPG to be competitive, and how the QB is instrumental in that, are somehow caught up in FF is embarrassing. You're better than that.
It's more than reasonable to look back at what typically works in the NFL - as a benchmark - and how we need to manufacture output to get there...
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You see all of these people say "you're comparing Jones to Mahomes?" Literally no one is!
It's implied. Don't play dumb.
Yes, they are being compared and in the comparison I literally said, "they are not in the same league."
The point, which many are missing, is that even an elite QB cant overcome dogshit skill around him.
Kelce is a huge part of the Chiefs success.
I didn't think the Chiefs OL was great last night though and maybe Kelce being out impacted that unit as well.
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In comment 16195717 BestFeature said:
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You see all of these people say "you're comparing Jones to Mahomes?" Literally no one is!
It's implied. Don't play dumb.
Yes, they are being compared and in the comparison I literally said, "they are not in the same league."
The point, which many are missing, is that even an elite QB cant overcome dogshit skill around him.
I get your intent. I don't have a problem with your idea.
Let's just give the Chiefs some time to figure this out before we declare last night a trend.
Despite playing with guys allergic to cowhide last night, Mahomes still threw 2 TD passes and, again, stacked a 72+ QBR.
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Mahomes was awesome last night. His pocket presence, combination of arm strength and accuracy, and his decision making under duress are the best the NFL has ever seen. No one who understands football who witnessed the game last night would conclude that the Chief's sluggish offensive performance was due in any way shape or form to poor quarterback play.
Did you read the post?
I have said multiple times that DJ is not in Mahomes league and I dont think Mahomes did not play poorly last night.
It appears that you COMPLETELY missed the point which was, even with an elite QB, elite play caller, home field advantage against a middling defense you still skill players to produce offensively.
I was referring more to many of the comments in the thread... But your inference clearly implies that the problems in the past with DJ were with the receivers and not with him which I strenuously disagree with. As I said, the receivers can be bad AND the quarterback can be bad. Which has been the case with DJ. It has never been the case with Mahomes.
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In comment 16195707 The Mike said:
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Mahomes was awesome last night. His pocket presence, combination of arm strength and accuracy, and his decision making under duress are the best the NFL has ever seen. No one who understands football who witnessed the game last night would conclude that the Chief's sluggish offensive performance was due in any way shape or form to poor quarterback play.
Did you read the post?
I have said multiple times that DJ is not in Mahomes league and I dont think Mahomes did not play poorly last night.
It appears that you COMPLETELY missed the point which was, even with an elite QB, elite play caller, home field advantage against a middling defense you still skill players to produce offensively.
As I said, the receivers can be bad AND the quarterback can be bad. Which has been the case with DJ. It has never been the case with Mahomes.
My point is that you can't possibly know that DJ is "bad" because OL, skill positions and scheme (up until last year) have been dog shot. If you combine all 3, I'd argue that it has been the worst situation for a QB in the league since DJ was drafted.
I think we know that DJ is not elite, but to say that he is "bad" given his circumstances over the last 4 years is just as silly as saying he is elite, probably moreso.
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In comment 16195707 The Mike said:
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Mahomes was awesome last night. His pocket presence, combination of arm strength and accuracy, and his decision making under duress are the best the NFL has ever seen. No one who understands football who witnessed the game last night would conclude that the Chief's sluggish offensive performance was due in any way shape or form to poor quarterback play.
Did you read the post?
I have said multiple times that DJ is not in Mahomes league and I dont think Mahomes did not play poorly last night.
It appears that you COMPLETELY missed the point which was, even with an elite QB, elite play caller, home field advantage against a middling defense you still skill players to produce offensively.
I was referring more to many of the comments in the thread... But your inference clearly implies that the problems in the past with DJ were with the receivers and not with him which I strenuously disagree with. As I said, the receivers can be bad AND the quarterback can be bad. Which has been the case with DJ. It has never been the case with Mahomes.
The only one I see comparing DJ to Mahomes is... well... you. I don't see anyone else here doing it. It's pretty clear to me DJ is a good QB. He is not Mahomes. But he is still a very good QB. Bot of those things can also be true. And BTW, every QB has bad games. Yes even the best QB in the league. Joe Burrow. lol
It certainly wasn't a matter of better pass catching weapons or better pass protection. Those things were both suspect YoY.
In addition to a better run game, and a better play caller, Jones also drastically improved.
He protected himself much better as a runner and was able to be both very productive and available in the run game.
He also dramatically improved his accuracy. He went from pretty accurate to ultra-accurate
He increased his completion percentage by nearly 3 percentage points, cut his interception rate nearly in half, decreased his bad throws by more than 5 percentage points, and increased his on-target percentage by the same.
Jones transformed into a top tier runner, and top tier accurate passer. He wasn't those things before.
And I don't most of you would say that happened because of his the line or pass catchers.
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In comment 16195727 Capt. Don said:
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In comment 16195707 The Mike said:
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Mahomes was awesome last night. His pocket presence, combination of arm strength and accuracy, and his decision making under duress are the best the NFL has ever seen. No one who understands football who witnessed the game last night would conclude that the Chief's sluggish offensive performance was due in any way shape or form to poor quarterback play.
Did you read the post?
I have said multiple times that DJ is not in Mahomes league and I dont think Mahomes did not play poorly last night.
It appears that you COMPLETELY missed the point which was, even with an elite QB, elite play caller, home field advantage against a middling defense you still skill players to produce offensively.
As I said, the receivers can be bad AND the quarterback can be bad. Which has been the case with DJ. It has never been the case with Mahomes.
My point is that you can't possibly know that DJ is "bad" because OL, skill positions and scheme (up until last year) have been dog shot. If you combine all 3, I'd argue that it has been the worst situation for a QB in the league since DJ was drafted.
I think we know that DJ is not elite, but to say that he is "bad" given his circumstances over the last 4 years is just as silly as saying he is elite, probably moreso.
I didn't say he is bad - I said he has been bad. He has beaten no less than five teams with winning records in four years. Five teams! That is as bad as it gets. Was it because of poor receivers or a bad offensive line? In part, yes. Was it because he has not historically been good under duress? When he has to go off script? When he has to throw receivers open in tight windows? Yes. Yes. And Yes. Which is why Daboll had him on training wheels and guard rails all of last year. And any progress he made in the Vikings game was negated completely by his regress in the Eagles game...
Can Daboll/Kafka improve this so he is able to perform at a top ten level with the new weapons week in and week out? Maybe. Maybe not. We'll get an important first look in two days.
The new superior weapons are going to get the credit for Jones good passing stats this yr, but the inferior weapons got no blame for their role in Jones' less than spectacular passing stats in the past. Make sense?
The irony is rich.
Do you see your own inconsistency? You're already preparing yourself to give credit to DJ for the things that you said he was dependent on.
Either it was all his fault, and he has now improved, and thus deserves the credit for that improvement. Or it was never his fault because he's the product of his environment, and thus remains a product of his environment, but the environment has improved.
There's no question that all QBs get more blame than they deserve and more credit than they deserve. That's not something unique to Daniel Jones. But it gets a little bit silly when folks argue ONLY the blame or ONLY the credit.
If you want to give DJ the credit for his improvement last year and what we all hope and expect will be even more improvement this year, then you should (IMO) acknowledge that he bore some of the responsibility for his own struggles previously. If you want to excuse his struggles because of the surrounding talent and coaching (or lack thereof), then you should be crediting the upgraded talent and coaching for the improvement.
I understand that it's not quite so clear-cut in reality, and that's why we all flock to this message board to discuss and dissect every aspect of these topics beyond any semblance of usefulness. However, it's peculiar that DJ's defenders still won't give the kid any credit for having improved his own game. Everything to them (you included) is about the supporting cast. It's almost like it doesn't matter who the QB is, just give any schmo the supporting cast and let it rip.
It certainly wasn't a matter of better pass catching weapons or better pass protection. Those things were both suspect YoY.
In addition to a better run game, and a better play caller, Jones also drastically improved.
He protected himself much better as a runner and was able to be both very productive and available in the run game.
He also dramatically improved his accuracy. He went from pretty accurate to ultra-accurate
He increased his completion percentage by nearly 3 percentage points, cut his interception rate nearly in half, decreased his bad throws by more than 5 percentage points, and increased his on-target percentage by the same.
Jones transformed into a top tier runner, and top tier accurate passer. He wasn't those things before.
And I don't most of you would say that happened because of his the line or pass catchers.
One of my big sources of frustration in these debates is when Jones has objectively superb games--Washington in 2021, Colts/Vikings games last year, as examples--and we are told this is what he is like all the time.
I think it's simply a matter of wanting to say "I was always right."
Which seems like a hell of a guess.
I didn't see a lot of proclamations before the 2022 season that the Giants were going to morph into an ultra short pass offense, and run a ton of read option.
I also didn't see a lot of "all the Giants need is less experience and more injuries at pass catching positions, and equally bad pass protection for Jones to succeed."
Quote:
Mahomes had a 72.5 QBR last night. Higher than Goff's.
Why? Because it was clear the Mahomes was making the right play, but not getting the dividends. Which is why QBR is a solid metric.
That is a big part of my point.
Mahomes is elite
Reid is elite
OL is good
Top 3 home field advantage
Playing against an average defense
...and the offense still looked meh.
Mahomes is better than DJ, much better. But what would the NYG offense have looked like if you had subbed Mahomes for DJ? My guess is that it would have been better but still pretty pedestrian.
Shiiiiiit. DJ would have rushed for 107 yds and we would have won in a squeaker at the buzzer. You can’t spell elite without DanIEL. Derp…
None of us have said he needs a couple all pro WRs to succeed (and most likely he still doesn't have anything close to one).
I was rewatching a '22 game recently and one of the announcers said something like "Jones has had a revolving door of league bottom receivers" (I'm pretty sure I've heard something to that effect multiple times).
Can we see what Jones can do with something above that? Is that too much to assk for? Just freaking league average would be nice (same with the OL).
Some people act like Tom Brady succeeded without great receivers, as if Gronk, Welker and Moss were chicken shit that Brady turned into salad.
Weapons matter. When the offense does well this yr, they will ALL deserve credit (including the QB that some BBIers have been shitting on for yrs).
I don't even know what you're arguing and i don't care enough to read your whole post.
I'm done here. Have nice day.