He's got bad feet and awful lateral movement, combined with bad balance. It's a physical limitation.
I was a bit concerned that he never did any athletic testing leading up to the draft -- that him and his agent were likely hiding something.
NFL GM's are routinely fooled by Bama olineman - Neal, Fluker, Leatherwood, Wills, Cam Robinson, Cyrus Koundagjio, James Carpenter, Chance Warmack, Andre Smith, and Jonah Williams. That is every Bama OL drafted in the first 2 rounds over the last 15 years.
Of those - only Andre Smith and Jonah Williams went on to be at least average - and even that's debatable.
Giants need to draft OL with good feet and technique.
Peart’s awful, but honestly what could he do that would represent a downgrade on what we saw last night from Neal?
yes it would be worse. Last year he played RT and the Giants went to Playoffs and won one. Peart only way he will contribute to playoffs is buying tickets for someone else.
IMO way too early to panic. And big deal - he plays guard next year. We pay for a Tackle' or draft one. or trade for one any possibly two or all three of these alternatives. This team wasn't supposed to be that good this year anyway.
The guy is not made to be a tackle, hopefully a guard. It's time they move him inside and give him a shot there. The coaching staff need to realize this already, but I'm afraid they won't.
Anymore either and keep trotting him out there. He is worse than Erik Flowers period. Took Flowers some time to regain confidence and become an average OG which we all saw. They need to move Neal inside and salvage what they can right now. Not like Glowinski is star table either. If I’m coach I fire Bobby Johnson tomorrow morning, have a team meeting that this is completely unacceptable and everyone’s jobs is in the line. Bring in anyone else to coach this OL, have Neal start working at OG and have to earn himself the job in practice. Put anyone at RT. Cross fingers and hope to god AT isn’t out long, and same of Peart as we may not have an OT on the roster and it’s week 2. Season is quickly spiraling out of control.
Sorry I don't agree with the negativity of 1st half with Neal.
Sure maybe 2nd half. when the socre is 26-0 and the defense rested and not having to give a crap about Giants running. Sure a heavy pass rush team is going to give him a lot of trouble starting with 8 minutes in 2nd qtr up 26-0 then throughout the game from that point.
Neal's strength is run blocking. Potentially if the game is not such a wipeout the pass rush should never be this extreme in regard to other team's Defense always know its pass pass pass for so long during a game.
For exampel he had 1 holding penalty 1st half. That wasn't his fault. Jones was forced to run right. Neal was protecting the pocket but Jones was forced to run right outside Neal, this right into the Defensive RT/ or Edge.
I just saw that he might have missed one block in 1st half or it was the guard or it was the Defense that read the play on the 3rd-and-short in 1st quarter that the LB tackled Jones. And one play he did get beat which forced Jones to move left though Jones ended up completing a good chunk pass to Waller.
Here is a news flash-- if the Giants have to go behind 26-0 with 8 minutes left in 2nd quarter of every game- then a guy like Neal is going to get crushed eventually. That doesn't mean he is a bust.
At this point he is a predominant run blocker who throughout the year can potentialy improve by bits and pieces to get get better. The Giants two top receivers should be their tight end and RB. They are quick pass types taht cna occasionally go deep. This is how the team is built.
FGoign fdwon 26-0 in 2nd quarter is also a failure of teh Derfense. Teh OL suck overall too much ot prodcue in thsi type of game. Not just Neal.
On the eve of the combine in early March 2022, seven weeks before the draft, Neal was a solid favorite to go number one overall. Not overwhelming, but solid (-135 odds, with Hutchinson #2 at +270).
Then Neal refused to do drills at the combine. Then he refused to do drills at 'Bama's pro day. And he didn't even try to pretend he had an injury issue.
Height, weight and arm length. That's the only data he wanted out there. He knew the drills would show he wasn't an athlete.
A number of teams drew the right conclusion and passed. The Giants caught the knife.
“Much improved” during training camp but in a game where not a SINGLE player (or coach) were ready for the the speed and intensity the Boys came at them with, you single Neal out??
The cohesion on the OL was laughable. I don’t think this game tells us anything long term. Short term, this is a BAD, but more talented team.
“Much improved” during training camp but in a game where not a SINGLE player (or coach) were ready for the the speed and intensity the Boys came at them with, you single Neal out??
The cohesion on the OL was laughable. I don’t think this game tells us anything long term. Short term, this is a BAD, but more talented team.
“Much improved” during training camp but in a game where not a SINGLE player (or coach) were ready for the the speed and intensity the Boys came at them with, you single Neal out??
The cohesion on the OL was laughable. I don’t think this game tells us anything long term. Short term, this is a BAD, but more talented team.
I think this is what the take away is. This was a shitshow in every aspect.
are looking at. Manny just said he's gotten better
And Ryan swears Neal is the least of our worries. Ryan is obviously very smart and knows so much, not only about football, but about credibility in general, so between him and Manny, we should just defer to them.
Anymore either and keep trotting him out there. He is worse than Erik Flowers period. Took Flowers some time to regain confidence and become an average OG which we all saw. They need to move Neal inside and salvage what they can right now. Not like Glowinski is star table either. If I’m coach I fire Bobby Johnson tomorrow morning, have a team meeting that this is completely unacceptable and everyone’s jobs is in the line. Bring in anyone else to coach this OL, have Neal start working at OG and have to earn himself the job in practice. Put anyone at RT. Cross fingers and hope to god AT isn’t out long, and same of Peart as we may not have an OT on the roster and it’s week 2. Season is quickly spiraling out of control.
Firing Johnson could save Neal like firing Columbo saved Thomas.
He will not be fine. We need to bench him and see what Peart or someone else can do at RT. Otherwise, this team is certainly headed to a 6-11 type of year.
He will not be fine. We need to bench him and see what Peart or someone else can do at RT. Otherwise, this team is certainly headed to a 6-11 type of year.
On the eve of the combine in early March 2022, seven weeks before the draft, Neal was a solid favorite to go number one overall. Not overwhelming, but solid (-135 odds, with Hutchinson #2 at +270).
Then Neal refused to do drills at the combine. Then he refused to do drills at 'Bama's pro day. And he didn't even try to pretend he had an injury issue.
Height, weight and arm length. That's the only data he wanted out there. He knew the drills would show he wasn't an athlete.
A number of teams drew the right conclusion and passed. The Giants caught the knife.
yahoo - ( New Window )
I always worried about this in the back of my mind.
All off-season this board was filled with optimism for Neal. "He's been working in the off-season", "He looks great", "He's going to be better in his second year, look at Thomas", "Our bookends are set for the next decade". What a difference a game makes. I originally thought he was a massive reach. There were other tackles further down the first and in to the 3rd round they could have drafted. People are now waving the white flag and saying hope he can move to guard. Not a good look for Schoen and the front office scouts. That's a top 10 pick, number 7 to be exact. They say you shouldn't go to the store hungry. He went famished, paid for prime rib, and got scrapple.
Who wasn't? Banks name wasn't called too much, always a good sign for a CB. Anyone? Jnnes gets a pass.
Perversely, that's my hope today with Neal. The Giants were so outclassed, so fragile, so unable to deliver even 60% of the Cowboys intensity, comically sloppy, and ended up in a hole so deep so fast they were in in the one place you can't be against a great defense: one dimensional in the rain playing from 3 scores behind.
Neal was like the smelliest shit of a few dozen shit piles. He contributed a bit more than most to stench.
I put this loss on Daboll. Maybe his light camp and even keel will serve us well later, but such an astonishing underperformance on both sides of the ball points directly to the coaching.
because there were a few times guys best him around the edge BUT Glowinski multiple times messed up stunts and ran into Neal leaving clear paths to Jones..
I wonder if moving Bredeson to Right guard, would help Neal a little bit, having a better guard helping him..
Who wasn't? Banks name wasn't called too much, always a good sign for a CB. Anyone? Jnnes gets a pass.
Jones gets a pass? Clearly we're back in 2021, so I guess we can trot out all the old takes.
Jones doesn't deserve to be scapegoated for last night as no QB could survive behind that abysmal OL, but he had some glaring mistakes. He was not remotely close to being the reason why last night went the way it did, but he did contribute to it.
And an extension that is on the coaches. They were running the same twists and stuns all game. Rush nea from both sides and then loop around to make it impossible for a Jones to scramble. Good game plan by Dallas but our inability to adjust is very concerning
I’m convinced he’s a guard in the NFL. He’s big and powerful but can’t maneuver in space. I would look for a Veteran RT and move Neal to RG.
It will likely take a trade to bring in a suitable RT.
but Glowinski is the bigger problem. Schoen has not made many mistakes, but Glowinski is probably the biggest.
Last night was a total line failure. The one quarter+ I watched it looked like Bredesen was the "best" of the 5.
Spot on. Neal has issues, which should be discussed, but Glowinski was so incompetent that he should be cut today. He couldn't block Christopher Reeve last night.
going to give it a couple more weeks. He missed part of camp and I thought he should have played more.
He certainly was a big concern of mine this offseason.
I do think at this point it is fair to consider if the Giants need a better OL coach.
You bring up good points about Evan Neal missing training camp and the O-line coaching situation. I just wish that your post would somehow outweigh the image I have of Evan Neal's entire rookie season in which he earned something like 6 Dud Awards from Sy'56.
He's played 14 NFL games. The time to panic will be if he shows no improvement from last year to this year. You can't judge it after 1 really bad game.
I know everyone really is enjoying the pile on, but nothing we can do except see how the kid responds.
if Neal does not develop into a good RT at minimum, then it was a terrible pick by Schoen.
I'm not sure that Thibodeaux is living up to where he was drafted either.
To whiff on two top 10 picks is a fireabke offense. Unless
Of course he pulls a rabbit out of a hat and proves that all these late round picks end up being real quality NFL players (Hawkins, Riley, Owens, Etc.)
Different player, different position. But I do recall you guys saying that Thomas was a bust after he had a few really rough games early on in his career. Mainly the Eagles one where he gave up a bunch of sacks.
I’m convinced he’s a guard in the NFL. He’s big and powerful but can’t maneuver in space. I would look for a Veteran RT and move Neal to RG.
It will likely take a trade to bring in a suitable RT.
The problem is - he doesn't have a power presence right now. He dropped weight trying to get quicker and now he's got no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
Interestingly, like Ereck Flowers, Neal appeared OK his first couple of games and then quickly went downhill.
It's the same trajectory Daboll seems to be on.
There's an old saying "the only thing harder than success, is sustained success". Right now, the regression talk that seemed so odd is actually spot on. The gap appears to have widened with the Cowboys. (Not shrunk.) As an organization, they figured out what the Giants were doing and completely dismantled it. That's a regression, and the signal of a bad coaching staff.
Dabes won CoY, Kafka was considered an up and comer, but the reality is, neither of these guys has ever had any demonstrated long term success at their current position. It's possible they're in over their heads, as the last 3 head coaches were. Daboll can be everyone's buddy, create a fun atmosphere at practice, ping pong etc., but the bottom line is creating a team of savages that will win on Sunday and that's not looking good right now.
He's played 14 NFL games. The time to panic will be if he shows no improvement from last year to this year. You can't judge it after 1 really bad game.
I know everyone really is enjoying the pile on, but nothing we can do except see how the kid responds.
You make a fair point and he does seem to be OK in the run game, but it is really frustrating to see zero progress in his pass protection. Really.
Peart’s awful, but honestly what could he do that would represent a downgrade on what we saw last night from Neal?
Agreed. Obviously, he can't just slide to RG, but if he can play there at a good level, it upgrades that position, which is also a huge hole. At least this off season, with Neal's age and draft position, optimism he would improve was understandable. Glowinski, to me, is baffling. I thought he was terrible last year, but a lot were high on him. Those 2 looked like they were trying to out stink each other.
All off-season this board was filled with optimism for Neal. "He's been working in the off-season", "He looks great", "He's going to be better in his second year, look at Thomas", "Our bookends are set for the next decade". What a difference a game makes. I originally thought he was a massive reach. There were other tackles further down the first and in to the 3rd round they could have drafted. People are now waving the white flag and saying hope he can move to guard. Not a good look for Schoen and the front office scouts. That's a top 10 pick, number 7 to be exact. They say you shouldn't go to the store hungry. He went famished, paid for prime rib, and got scrapple.
yup. I think what a lot of people don’t want to admit right now is that we shouldn’t just have a highly raised eyebrow at Neal, but also the GM and cocking staff that brought him in and have had more than enough time to work with him. I also don’t think it’s too early to freak out about Neal, we Giants fans have a lot of experience in identifying horrible players.
Drafted to be a LT, moved to RT and stunk at both. Ultimately, he proved to be a decent RG for them. But, the time is now.
William Roberts as well. Lousy tackle, good guard.
Yes. Was just about to add him. Both those guys were expected to be the bookend OTs when drafted. That failed 2x, but they ended up being pretty good OGs, with Roberts being better. But, still, they helped anchor a strong OL after moving inside.
I’m convinced he’s a guard in the NFL. He’s big and powerful but can’t maneuver in space. I would look for a Veteran RT and move Neal to RG.
It will likely take a trade to bring in a suitable RT.
The problem is - he doesn't have a power presence right now. He dropped weight trying to get quicker and now he's got no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
Interestingly, like Ereck Flowers, Neal appeared OK his first couple of games and then quickly went downhill.
It's the same trajectory Daboll seems to be on.
There's an old saying "the only thing harder than success, is sustained success". Right now, the regression talk that seemed so odd is actually spot on. The gap appears to have widened with the Cowboys. (Not shrunk.) As an organization, they figured out what the Giants were doing and completely dismantled it. That's a regression, and the signal of a bad coaching staff.
Dabes won CoY, Kafka was considered an up and comer, but the reality is, neither of these guys has ever had any demonstrated long term success at their current position. It's possible they're in over their heads, as the last 3 head coaches were. Daboll can be everyone's buddy, create a fun atmosphere at practice, ping pong etc., but the bottom line is creating a team of savages that will win on Sunday and that's not looking good right now.
WTF are you talking about?
Reporter after reporter tweeted out all summer how Daboll was screaming at his players. They were quite taken aback by it. Pay attention.
He's played 14 NFL games. The time to panic will be if he shows no improvement from last year to this year. You can't judge it after 1 really bad game.
I know everyone really is enjoying the pile on, but nothing we can do except see how the kid responds.
Based on your preseason posts, there wasn't all that much for Neal to improve on from last year. He was supposed to be the least of our worries, isn't that right?
And you have the nerve to question anyone's supposed credibility.
I didn't read one camp report or hear one sound bite that indicated "country club", whether explicitly or hinting at it. That includes player interviews.
Who wasn't? Banks name wasn't called too much, always a good sign for a CB. Anyone? Jnnes gets a pass.
Jones gets a pass? Clearly we're back in 2021, so I guess we can trot out all the old takes.
Jones doesn't deserve to be scapegoated for last night as no QB could survive behind that abysmal OL, but he had some glaring mistakes. He was not remotely close to being the reason why last night went the way it did, but he did contribute to it.
Agreed. He had an awful game. I give him a pass because he had no real chance and once the momentum snowballed the team gave up.
He was horrid yet the least awful Giant out there.
And an extension that is on the coaches. They were running the same twists and stuns all game. Rush nea from both sides and then loop around to make it impossible for a Jones to scramble. Good game plan by Dallas but our inability to adjust is very concerning
Bisignano has been as rah-rah about the coaching staff and the Giants as anyone.
So it would be an exceptionally weird take for him to then turn around and say Daboll is running a "country club" in the locker room. That has NEVER been a positive phrase when describing a coach.
I think the semantics are that it's not that the atmosphere is light, is that Daboll leans on a work smarter not harder type of camp. He relies on sports science so rest days are prevelent, which we knew. I don't think he meant that Daboll runs a Country Club and nobody is held accountable. That's two different things.
Thanks goodness Neal spent this offseason training with
I think the semantics are that it's not that the atmosphere is light, is that Daboll leans on a work smarter not harder type of camp. He relies on sports science so rest days are prevelent, which we knew. I don't think he meant that Daboll runs a Country Club and nobody is held accountable. That's two different things.
Exactly, light on physical contact doesn't mean light on work or a light atmosphere. Shit, he secretly designed the practices last year to benefit the D in order to test the QBs mental resolve. That's about as far from "country club" as you can get.
outside the organization to fix their games seems to be somewhat of an admission that Bobby Johnson is not a guru.
2. Neal just does not seem to have the feet for tackle. I caught him lunging a few times because he's just not quick enough to get to his man. Guard has to be considered and hopefully he can pull an Andrus Peat and stay there. If he can upgrade either guard spot, that's at least something to work with, even if Peart and/or McKethan are stinking it up at RT. I could go either way but it has to be considered.
If Schoen missed on that high pick for Neal then he is the problem. I believe that Neal works very hard at his craft. Could be he just cannot play in the NFL. That is Schoen's fault for picking him with a top-10 pick.
...that the Giant offense would be ok with 4 second string quality players starting on the O-line.
We KNEW they were 2nd stringers.
Oh, also - same is true at WR. Building a team from the ground up, these are not the players you want starting. Nice relievers, but they aren't scaring anyone.
...that the Giant offense would be ok with 4 second string quality players starting on the O-line.
We KNEW they were 2nd stringers.
Oh, also - same is true at WR. Building a team from the ground up, these are not the players you want starting. Nice relievers, but they aren't scaring anyone.
There's little to learn about our receivers from last night. That's probably an NFL record for the highest percentage pressure in a game. Jones was uncharacteristically inaccurate, and by a very side margin.
JMS was solid especially for a rookie. Thomas got hurt on the fatal FG. Dallas was up 3 scores in a blink. The effect all compounds and snowballs.
We'll never know what that game would have looked if Thomas doesn't false start and JMS doesn't hose the snap.
For that matter, we'll never know what might have been were it dry and 70,000 people going apeshit in introductions. The rain killed what could have been a huge advantage.
Can play RT. He played LT at UNC, and has shown to be a good run blocker.
He can’t pass protect at guard, now you want to put him on an island at RT? Daboll made every effort to get Ezeudu to win the LG spot, and he still couldn’t do it. He would be far worse at RT than Neal.
Can play RT. He played LT at UNC, and has shown to be a good run blocker.
He can’t pass protect at guard, now you want to put him on an island at RT? Daboll made every effort to get Ezeudu to win the LG spot, and he still couldn’t do it. He would be far worse at RT than Neal.
Ezeudu was pretty good at UNC. He has the feet and athleticism to play tackle at the pro level. His issue might be upper body strength, which is bigger need when blocking defensive tackles instead of edge rushers.
Daboll made every effort to get Ezeudu to win the LG spot, and he still couldn’t do it. He would be far worse at RT than Neal.
Exactly. To me he's probably the biggest disappointment of camp. I think the front office felt safe enough to ignore guard in the draft and take JMS over O'Cyrus Torrence (starting for Buffalo and has a much higher ceiling) because they gambled and assumed Ezeudu would win the spot this year.
Daboll made every effort to get Ezeudu to win the LG spot, and he still couldn’t do it. He would be far worse at RT than Neal.
Exactly. To me he's probably the biggest disappointment of camp. I think the front office felt safe enough to ignore guard in the draft and take JMS over O'Cyrus Torrence (starting for Buffalo and has a much higher ceiling) because they gambled and assumed Ezeudu would win the spot this year.
I think there is something to that and Ezeudu, for me, is one of the biggest disappointments coming out of this year's camp. But, I think OC was as big or a bigger need and they addressed that with a good player.
I think there is something to that and Ezeudu, for me, is one of the biggest disappointments coming out of this year's camp. But, I think OC was as big or a bigger need and they addressed that with a good player.
Center was a need for sure, but now we're staring down the barrel of LG and RG being huge needs because the front office falsely assumed or hoped that their selections to fill those spots (Ezeudu and Glowinski) would just work out somehow even though they gave little indication in 2022 that they would be steady starters in 2023.
Giants have been guilty of that type of thinking for over a decade now: not hedging their bets and bypassing BPA because they are reaching to plug all 5 spots at once and don't want to admit potential failure before its too late.
I was really hopeful for Ezeudu: he's a good athlete and he has displayed some good power at times. But not being able to put Bredeson back where he belongs (the bench) or send Glow to the retirement home? Yeesh.
I think there is something to that and Ezeudu, for me, is one of the biggest disappointments coming out of this year's camp. But, I think OC was as big or a bigger need and they addressed that with a good player.
Center was a need for sure, but now we're staring down the barrel of LG and RG being huge needs because the front office falsely assumed or hoped that their selections to fill those spots (Ezeudu and Glowinski) would just work out somehow even though they gave little indication in 2022 that they would be steady starters in 2023.
Giants have been guilty of that type of thinking for over a decade now: not hedging their bets and bypassing BPA because they are reaching to plug all 5 spots at once and don't want to admit potential failure before its too late.
I was really hopeful for Ezeudu: he's a good athlete and he has displayed some good power at times. But not being able to put Bredeson back where he belongs (the bench) or send Glow to the retirement home? Yeesh.
And if we drafted a OG, we'd be staring down the barrel of a horrific OC and OG next to each other. More or less, the same outcome. At least we seem to have at least a pretty good OC. My real hope is that McKethan is still rusty from coming back from injury only a few weeks ago really and that he can start playing RG really soon. If he is anywhere near the player he was last summer, he's 1/2 of the solution for OG.
But I think people did the JS celebration a little prematurely. A GM needs time to be evaluated and while I think he's had some great moves like Waller and Simmons that prior regimes just never were on top of it is looking like he may have missed on the 5th and 7th pick in the same draft.
And that story still needs to be written more but if that proves to be true that is a huge blight on his resume...
RE: Ranaan said on his podcast that the Giants run a lighter camp as well.
I think the semantics are that it's not that the atmosphere is light, is that Daboll leans on a work smarter not harder type of camp. He relies on sports science so rest days are prevelent, which we knew. I don't think he meant that Daboll runs a Country Club and nobody is held accountable. That's two different things.
This is the context. I think Biz used the term country club but he meant it in regards to physicality and rest days as opposed to accountability and the like.
I think there is something to that and Ezeudu, for me, is one of the biggest disappointments coming out of this year's camp. But, I think OC was as big or a bigger need and they addressed that with a good player.
Center was a need for sure, but now we're staring down the barrel of LG and RG being huge needs because the front office falsely assumed or hoped that their selections to fill those spots (Ezeudu and Glowinski) would just work out somehow even though they gave little indication in 2022 that they would be steady starters in 2023.
Giants have been guilty of that type of thinking for over a decade now: not hedging their bets and bypassing BPA because they are reaching to plug all 5 spots at once and don't want to admit potential failure before its too late.
I was really hopeful for Ezeudu: he's a good athlete and he has displayed some good power at times. But not being able to put Bredeson back where he belongs (the bench) or send Glow to the retirement home? Yeesh.
And if we drafted a OG, we'd be staring down the barrel of a horrific OC and OG next to each other. More or less, the same outcome. At least we seem to have at least a pretty good OC. My real hope is that McKethan is still rusty from coming back from injury only a few weeks ago really and that he can start playing RG really soon. If he is anywhere near the player he was last summer, he's 1/2 of the solution for OG.
Dallas is the single worst team in the league to face when you struggle with stunts; they typically stunt (and rarely blitz). We did on the right side last year and it hasn't changed. Also Dallas is amongst of the worst to fall 2+ scores down.
The core "break glass" issue from last night is why did RT/RG struggle so badly mentally as well as physically. That's it on O.
The other is on D - how/why was our theoretically ferocious front 7 handled so easily they looked like castrated poodles.
RE: I think BD is a great coach, last night included
But I think people did the JS celebration a little prematurely. A GM needs time to be evaluated and while I think he's had some great moves like Waller and Simmons that prior regimes just never were on top of it is looking like he may have missed on the 5th and 7th pick in the same draft.
And that story still needs to be written more but if that proves to be true that is a huge blight on his resume...
Dabka were tragically incompetent last night. This is now two games in a row against good teams (lost to Philly in the playoffs) where they didn't seem to adjust or inspire the players.
So, while I agree Dabka have some equity built up, it's starting to be spent quickly.
RE: I think BD is a great coach, last night included
But I think people did the JS celebration a little prematurely. A GM needs time to be evaluated and while I think he's had some great moves like Waller and Simmons that prior regimes just never were on top of it is looking like he may have missed on the 5th and 7th pick in the same draft.
And that story still needs to be written more but if that proves to be true that is a huge blight on his resume...
Daboll has shown some real strategic thoughtfulness in game plan construction but completely agreed on Schoen. His best move was picking up Hodgins last year, he was totally cap constrained. GMs take a few years to analyze.
I did not like this past off-season, for the record. But Schoen needs another year or two to be properly analyzed.
called runs that are open he looks fantastic. But for an athletic QB he is one of the worst I've seen on unscheduled plays.
Agreed that Dabka needs to do better and I do think pretty much the whole team either quit or were completely unprepared or both and that is on the coaches.
But I also think that the guy taking up close to 20% of the cap in Sy's words "folding" in the Eagles game and doing a great impression of that last night too is not helping your leadership problem.
Hard to rally a team if your on field leader is looking overwhelmed and not on top of things at all.
called runs that are open he looks fantastic. But for an athletic QB he is one of the worst I've seen on unscheduled plays.
Agreed that Dabka needs to do better and I do think pretty much the whole team either quit or were completely unprepared or both and that is on the coaches.
But I also think that the guy taking up close to 20% of the cap in Sy's words "folding" in the Eagles game and doing a great impression of that last night too is not helping your leadership problem.
Hard to rally a team if your on field leader is looking overwhelmed and not on top of things at all.
I agree, but sitting in Section 149 (Endzone), there was almost no one open in these impromptu moments. It was dead out there.
You want Peart starting?
He's got bad feet and awful lateral movement, combined with bad balance. It's a physical limitation.
I was a bit concerned that he never did any athletic testing leading up to the draft -- that him and his agent were likely hiding something.
NFL GM's are routinely fooled by Bama olineman - Neal, Fluker, Leatherwood, Wills, Cam Robinson, Cyrus Koundagjio, James Carpenter, Chance Warmack, Andre Smith, and Jonah Williams. That is every Bama OL drafted in the first 2 rounds over the last 15 years.
Of those - only Andre Smith and Jonah Williams went on to be at least average - and even that's debatable.
Giants need to draft OL with good feet and technique.
I'd have to believe the entire season considering is draft slot.
Agree with Chris - Glowinski needs to be replaced.
How did our center do tonight?
yes it would be worse. Last year he played RT and the Giants went to Playoffs and won one. Peart only way he will contribute to playoffs is buying tickets for someone else.
IMO way too early to panic. And big deal - he plays guard next year. We pay for a Tackle' or draft one. or trade for one any possibly two or all three of these alternatives. This team wasn't supposed to be that good this year anyway.
Last night was a total line failure. The one quarter+ I watched it looked like Bredesen was the "best" of the 5.
Move Evan Neal to RG and start Matt Peart at RT.
Hmmm… on second thought…
Sure maybe 2nd half. when the socre is 26-0 and the defense rested and not having to give a crap about Giants running. Sure a heavy pass rush team is going to give him a lot of trouble starting with 8 minutes in 2nd qtr up 26-0 then throughout the game from that point.
Neal's strength is run blocking. Potentially if the game is not such a wipeout the pass rush should never be this extreme in regard to other team's Defense always know its pass pass pass for so long during a game.
For exampel he had 1 holding penalty 1st half. That wasn't his fault. Jones was forced to run right. Neal was protecting the pocket but Jones was forced to run right outside Neal, this right into the Defensive RT/ or Edge.
I just saw that he might have missed one block in 1st half or it was the guard or it was the Defense that read the play on the 3rd-and-short in 1st quarter that the LB tackled Jones. And one play he did get beat which forced Jones to move left though Jones ended up completing a good chunk pass to Waller.
Here is a news flash-- if the Giants have to go behind 26-0 with 8 minutes left in 2nd quarter of every game- then a guy like Neal is going to get crushed eventually. That doesn't mean he is a bust.
At this point he is a predominant run blocker who throughout the year can potentialy improve by bits and pieces to get get better. The Giants two top receivers should be their tight end and RB. They are quick pass types taht cna occasionally go deep. This is how the team is built.
FGoign fdwon 26-0 in 2nd quarter is also a failure of teh Derfense. Teh OL suck overall too much ot prodcue in thsi type of game. Not just Neal.
On the eve of the combine in early March 2022, seven weeks before the draft, Neal was a solid favorite to go number one overall. Not overwhelming, but solid (-135 odds, with Hutchinson #2 at +270).
Then Neal refused to do drills at the combine. Then he refused to do drills at 'Bama's pro day. And he didn't even try to pretend he had an injury issue.
Height, weight and arm length. That's the only data he wanted out there. He knew the drills would show he wasn't an athlete.
A number of teams drew the right conclusion and passed. The Giants caught the knife.
yahoo - ( New Window )
He’s been terrible down in Carolina. They’re concerned he can’t stay at T either .
The cohesion on the OL was laughable. I don’t think this game tells us anything long term. Short term, this is a BAD, but more talented team.
The cohesion on the OL was laughable. I don’t think this game tells us anything long term. Short term, this is a BAD, but more talented team.
+1
The cohesion on the OL was laughable. I don’t think this game tells us anything long term. Short term, this is a BAD, but more talented team.
I think this is what the take away is. This was a shitshow in every aspect.
You dont have to be a coach to see he has terrible movement skills. I'm not sure he could even play guard.
If he wasnt the 7th pick in the draft he would not be starting.
Terrible job by Schoen and coaching staff in not recognizing his limitations and getting a decent back up plan in place.
We are not beating philly or dallas with him at tackle. So there goes the season.
Glowinski is not a quality starter. The right side of the Giant line will be attacked all season by opposing defenses.
The whole team was nit ready to play last night. That is on the players, coaches and there are no excuses.
Glad we have ten captains to keep everyone focused and ready to play.
And Ryan swears Neal is the least of our worries. Ryan is obviously very smart and knows so much, not only about football, but about credibility in general, so between him and Manny, we should just defer to them.
Firing Johnson could save Neal like firing Columbo saved Thomas.
Peart? He’s awful. I’d rather stick with Neal.
A gentle Giant.
However, how does he look on running plays? Seriously
If he performing well there, then they will continue to work on his pass protection. I have no confidence that he will improve enough there.
On the eve of the combine in early March 2022, seven weeks before the draft, Neal was a solid favorite to go number one overall. Not overwhelming, but solid (-135 odds, with Hutchinson #2 at +270).
Then Neal refused to do drills at the combine. Then he refused to do drills at 'Bama's pro day. And he didn't even try to pretend he had an injury issue.
Height, weight and arm length. That's the only data he wanted out there. He knew the drills would show he wasn't an athlete.
A number of teams drew the right conclusion and passed. The Giants caught the knife.
yahoo - ( New Window )
I always worried about this in the back of my mind.
Who wasn't? Banks name wasn't called too much, always a good sign for a CB. Anyone? Jnnes gets a pass.
Perversely, that's my hope today with Neal. The Giants were so outclassed, so fragile, so unable to deliver even 60% of the Cowboys intensity, comically sloppy, and ended up in a hole so deep so fast they were in in the one place you can't be against a great defense: one dimensional in the rain playing from 3 scores behind.
Neal was like the smelliest shit of a few dozen shit piles. He contributed a bit more than most to stench.
I put this loss on Daboll. Maybe his light camp and even keel will serve us well later, but such an astonishing underperformance on both sides of the ball points directly to the coaching.
He certainly was a big concern of mine this offseason.
I do think at this point it is fair to consider if the Giants need a better OL coach.
I wonder if moving Bredeson to Right guard, would help Neal a little bit, having a better guard helping him..
Who wasn't? Banks name wasn't called too much, always a good sign for a CB. Anyone? Jnnes gets a pass.
Jones gets a pass? Clearly we're back in 2021, so I guess we can trot out all the old takes.
Jones doesn't deserve to be scapegoated for last night as no QB could survive behind that abysmal OL, but he had some glaring mistakes. He was not remotely close to being the reason why last night went the way it did, but he did contribute to it.
Hope im wrong - but Brederson couldn't keep Gates on the bench last season, and you're going to go into the season with him slotted somewhere?
I'm thinking they bet too hard on Ezeudu.
Bad job by Schoen to neglect the line so badly. Same story for the last decade.
It will likely take a trade to bring in a suitable RT.
Last night was a total line failure. The one quarter+ I watched it looked like Bredesen was the "best" of the 5.
Spot on. Neal has issues, which should be discussed, but Glowinski was so incompetent that he should be cut today. He couldn't block Christopher Reeve last night.
He certainly was a big concern of mine this offseason.
I do think at this point it is fair to consider if the Giants need a better OL coach.
You bring up good points about Evan Neal missing training camp and the O-line coaching situation. I just wish that your post would somehow outweigh the image I have of Evan Neal's entire rookie season in which he earned something like 6 Dud Awards from Sy'56.
I'm not sure that Thibodeaux is living up to where he was drafted either.
He certainly was a big concern of mine this offseason.
I do think at this point it is fair to consider if the Giants need a better OL coach.
This is where I am.
See how he looks at Arizona. While also paying close attention to what close attention the O-line guys pay to this week's Neal prep and improvements.
I know everyone really is enjoying the pile on, but nothing we can do except see how the kid responds.
I'm not sure that Thibodeaux is living up to where he was drafted either.
To whiff on two top 10 picks is a fireabke offense. Unless
Of course he pulls a rabbit out of a hat and proves that all these late round picks end up being real quality NFL players (Hawkins, Riley, Owens, Etc.)
It will likely take a trade to bring in a suitable RT.
The problem is - he doesn't have a power presence right now. He dropped weight trying to get quicker and now he's got no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
Interestingly, like Ereck Flowers, Neal appeared OK his first couple of games and then quickly went downhill.
It's the same trajectory Daboll seems to be on.
There's an old saying "the only thing harder than success, is sustained success". Right now, the regression talk that seemed so odd is actually spot on. The gap appears to have widened with the Cowboys. (Not shrunk.) As an organization, they figured out what the Giants were doing and completely dismantled it. That's a regression, and the signal of a bad coaching staff.
Dabes won CoY, Kafka was considered an up and comer, but the reality is, neither of these guys has ever had any demonstrated long term success at their current position. It's possible they're in over their heads, as the last 3 head coaches were. Daboll can be everyone's buddy, create a fun atmosphere at practice, ping pong etc., but the bottom line is creating a team of savages that will win on Sunday and that's not looking good right now.
I know everyone really is enjoying the pile on, but nothing we can do except see how the kid responds.
You make a fair point and he does seem to be OK in the run game, but it is really frustrating to see zero progress in his pass protection. Really.
The problem with Neal is when he's off, the play gets obliterated. Same with Glowinksi.
In their current state, both players are game wreckers.
William Roberts as well. Lousy tackle, good guard.
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Drafted to be a LT, moved to RT and stunk at both. Ultimately, he proved to be a decent RG for them. But, the time is now.
William Roberts as well. Lousy tackle, good guard.
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I’m convinced he’s a guard in the NFL. He’s big and powerful but can’t maneuver in space. I would look for a Veteran RT and move Neal to RG.
It will likely take a trade to bring in a suitable RT.
The problem is - he doesn't have a power presence right now. He dropped weight trying to get quicker and now he's got no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
Interestingly, like Ereck Flowers, Neal appeared OK his first couple of games and then quickly went downhill.
It's the same trajectory Daboll seems to be on.
There's an old saying "the only thing harder than success, is sustained success". Right now, the regression talk that seemed so odd is actually spot on. The gap appears to have widened with the Cowboys. (Not shrunk.) As an organization, they figured out what the Giants were doing and completely dismantled it. That's a regression, and the signal of a bad coaching staff.
Dabes won CoY, Kafka was considered an up and comer, but the reality is, neither of these guys has ever had any demonstrated long term success at their current position. It's possible they're in over their heads, as the last 3 head coaches were. Daboll can be everyone's buddy, create a fun atmosphere at practice, ping pong etc., but the bottom line is creating a team of savages that will win on Sunday and that's not looking good right now.
WTF are you talking about?
Reporter after reporter tweeted out all summer how Daboll was screaming at his players. They were quite taken aback by it. Pay attention.
The overall impression of his camp is a country club. That's been reported by pretty much every beat reporter who's been around the team.
I know everyone really is enjoying the pile on, but nothing we can do except see how the kid responds.
Based on your preseason posts, there wasn't all that much for Neal to improve on from last year. He was supposed to be the least of our worries, isn't that right?
And you have the nerve to question anyone's supposed credibility.
The overall impression of his camp is a country club. That's been reported by pretty much every beat reporter who's been around the team.
Absolutely false. Show me ONE blurb from anyone about a "country club" atmosphere. Just one.
And Daboll isn't trying to be buddy, buddy with anyone.
You're spewing shit at this point.
You know better though. Good stuff.
You know better though. Good stuff.
Then go find the quote and post it here. I'm waiting.
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He was terrible. Awful. Disgusting to watch.
Who wasn't? Banks name wasn't called too much, always a good sign for a CB. Anyone? Jnnes gets a pass.
Jones gets a pass? Clearly we're back in 2021, so I guess we can trot out all the old takes.
Jones doesn't deserve to be scapegoated for last night as no QB could survive behind that abysmal OL, but he had some glaring mistakes. He was not remotely close to being the reason why last night went the way it did, but he did contribute to it.
Agreed. He had an awful game. I give him a pass because he had no real chance and once the momentum snowballed the team gave up.
He was horrid yet the least awful Giant out there.
You guys didn't hear it. Fine by me. But I personally know who I'm going to believe - the guy that's actually around the team, at practice every day.
^^^ Yup
You guys didn't hear it. Fine by me. But I personally know who I'm going to believe - the guy that's actually around the team, at practice every day.
I think he has an account here. Perhaps he can weigh in and confirm your allegation.
So it would be an exceptionally weird take for him to then turn around and say Daboll is running a "country club" in the locker room. That has NEVER been a positive phrase when describing a coach.
Neal offseason training with Willie Anderson - ( New Window )
Exactly, light on physical contact doesn't mean light on work or a light atmosphere. Shit, he secretly designed the practices last year to benefit the D in order to test the QBs mental resolve. That's about as far from "country club" as you can get.
2. Neal just does not seem to have the feet for tackle. I caught him lunging a few times because he's just not quick enough to get to his man. Guard has to be considered and hopefully he can pull an Andrus Peat and stay there. If he can upgrade either guard spot, that's at least something to work with, even if Peart and/or McKethan are stinking it up at RT. I could go either way but it has to be considered.
If Schoen missed on that high pick for Neal then he is the problem. I believe that Neal works very hard at his craft. Could be he just cannot play in the NFL. That is Schoen's fault for picking him with a top-10 pick.
We KNEW they were 2nd stringers.
Oh, also - same is true at WR. Building a team from the ground up, these are not the players you want starting. Nice relievers, but they aren't scaring anyone.
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the Giants offensive lineman who went to the Bentley OL camp and didn't improve either?
Flowers, no?
I think it was Weston Richburg
We KNEW they were 2nd stringers.
Oh, also - same is true at WR. Building a team from the ground up, these are not the players you want starting. Nice relievers, but they aren't scaring anyone.
There's little to learn about our receivers from last night. That's probably an NFL record for the highest percentage pressure in a game. Jones was uncharacteristically inaccurate, and by a very side margin.
JMS was solid especially for a rookie. Thomas got hurt on the fatal FG. Dallas was up 3 scores in a blink. The effect all compounds and snowballs.
We'll never know what that game would have looked if Thomas doesn't false start and JMS doesn't hose the snap.
For that matter, we'll never know what might have been were it dry and 70,000 people going apeshit in introductions. The rain killed what could have been a huge advantage.
He can’t pass protect at guard, now you want to put him on an island at RT? Daboll made every effort to get Ezeudu to win the LG spot, and he still couldn’t do it. He would be far worse at RT than Neal.
Richburg and Geoff Schwartz did too
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Can play RT. He played LT at UNC, and has shown to be a good run blocker.
He can’t pass protect at guard, now you want to put him on an island at RT? Daboll made every effort to get Ezeudu to win the LG spot, and he still couldn’t do it. He would be far worse at RT than Neal.
Ezeudu was pretty good at UNC. He has the feet and athleticism to play tackle at the pro level. His issue might be upper body strength, which is bigger need when blocking defensive tackles instead of edge rushers.
Exactly. To me he's probably the biggest disappointment of camp. I think the front office felt safe enough to ignore guard in the draft and take JMS over O'Cyrus Torrence (starting for Buffalo and has a much higher ceiling) because they gambled and assumed Ezeudu would win the spot this year.
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Daboll made every effort to get Ezeudu to win the LG spot, and he still couldn’t do it. He would be far worse at RT than Neal.
Exactly. To me he's probably the biggest disappointment of camp. I think the front office felt safe enough to ignore guard in the draft and take JMS over O'Cyrus Torrence (starting for Buffalo and has a much higher ceiling) because they gambled and assumed Ezeudu would win the spot this year.
Center was a need for sure, but now we're staring down the barrel of LG and RG being huge needs because the front office falsely assumed or hoped that their selections to fill those spots (Ezeudu and Glowinski) would just work out somehow even though they gave little indication in 2022 that they would be steady starters in 2023.
Giants have been guilty of that type of thinking for over a decade now: not hedging their bets and bypassing BPA because they are reaching to plug all 5 spots at once and don't want to admit potential failure before its too late.
I was really hopeful for Ezeudu: he's a good athlete and he has displayed some good power at times. But not being able to put Bredeson back where he belongs (the bench) or send Glow to the retirement home? Yeesh.
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I think there is something to that and Ezeudu, for me, is one of the biggest disappointments coming out of this year's camp. But, I think OC was as big or a bigger need and they addressed that with a good player.
Center was a need for sure, but now we're staring down the barrel of LG and RG being huge needs because the front office falsely assumed or hoped that their selections to fill those spots (Ezeudu and Glowinski) would just work out somehow even though they gave little indication in 2022 that they would be steady starters in 2023.
Giants have been guilty of that type of thinking for over a decade now: not hedging their bets and bypassing BPA because they are reaching to plug all 5 spots at once and don't want to admit potential failure before its too late.
I was really hopeful for Ezeudu: he's a good athlete and he has displayed some good power at times. But not being able to put Bredeson back where he belongs (the bench) or send Glow to the retirement home? Yeesh.
But I think people did the JS celebration a little prematurely. A GM needs time to be evaluated and while I think he's had some great moves like Waller and Simmons that prior regimes just never were on top of it is looking like he may have missed on the 5th and 7th pick in the same draft.
And that story still needs to be written more but if that proves to be true that is a huge blight on his resume...
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In comment 16200871 Matt M. said:
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I think there is something to that and Ezeudu, for me, is one of the biggest disappointments coming out of this year's camp. But, I think OC was as big or a bigger need and they addressed that with a good player.
Center was a need for sure, but now we're staring down the barrel of LG and RG being huge needs because the front office falsely assumed or hoped that their selections to fill those spots (Ezeudu and Glowinski) would just work out somehow even though they gave little indication in 2022 that they would be steady starters in 2023.
Giants have been guilty of that type of thinking for over a decade now: not hedging their bets and bypassing BPA because they are reaching to plug all 5 spots at once and don't want to admit potential failure before its too late.
I was really hopeful for Ezeudu: he's a good athlete and he has displayed some good power at times. But not being able to put Bredeson back where he belongs (the bench) or send Glow to the retirement home? Yeesh.
And if we drafted a OG, we'd be staring down the barrel of a horrific OC and OG next to each other. More or less, the same outcome. At least we seem to have at least a pretty good OC. My real hope is that McKethan is still rusty from coming back from injury only a few weeks ago really and that he can start playing RG really soon. If he is anywhere near the player he was last summer, he's 1/2 of the solution for OG.
Dallas is the single worst team in the league to face when you struggle with stunts; they typically stunt (and rarely blitz). We did on the right side last year and it hasn't changed. Also Dallas is amongst of the worst to fall 2+ scores down.
The core "break glass" issue from last night is why did RT/RG struggle so badly mentally as well as physically. That's it on O.
The other is on D - how/why was our theoretically ferocious front 7 handled so easily they looked like castrated poodles.
But I think people did the JS celebration a little prematurely. A GM needs time to be evaluated and while I think he's had some great moves like Waller and Simmons that prior regimes just never were on top of it is looking like he may have missed on the 5th and 7th pick in the same draft.
And that story still needs to be written more but if that proves to be true that is a huge blight on his resume...
Dabka were tragically incompetent last night. This is now two games in a row against good teams (lost to Philly in the playoffs) where they didn't seem to adjust or inspire the players.
So, while I agree Dabka have some equity built up, it's starting to be spent quickly.
But I think people did the JS celebration a little prematurely. A GM needs time to be evaluated and while I think he's had some great moves like Waller and Simmons that prior regimes just never were on top of it is looking like he may have missed on the 5th and 7th pick in the same draft.
And that story still needs to be written more but if that proves to be true that is a huge blight on his resume...
Daboll has shown some real strategic thoughtfulness in game plan construction but completely agreed on Schoen. His best move was picking up Hodgins last year, he was totally cap constrained. GMs take a few years to analyze.
I did not like this past off-season, for the record. But Schoen needs another year or two to be properly analyzed.
Agreed that Dabka needs to do better and I do think pretty much the whole team either quit or were completely unprepared or both and that is on the coaches.
But I also think that the guy taking up close to 20% of the cap in Sy's words "folding" in the Eagles game and doing a great impression of that last night too is not helping your leadership problem.
Hard to rally a team if your on field leader is looking overwhelmed and not on top of things at all.
Agreed that Dabka needs to do better and I do think pretty much the whole team either quit or were completely unprepared or both and that is on the coaches.
But I also think that the guy taking up close to 20% of the cap in Sy's words "folding" in the Eagles game and doing a great impression of that last night too is not helping your leadership problem.
Hard to rally a team if your on field leader is looking overwhelmed and not on top of things at all.
I agree, but sitting in Section 149 (Endzone), there was almost no one open in these impromptu moments. It was dead out there.