To this point, he really isn't showing any more than Lorenzo Carter did. An occasional great play every so often punctuating long periods of invisibility. Where is the explosive playmaker he was supposed to be?
It’s way too early for this. It will always be fascinating how some guys don’t get the same energy.
When is it not too early? Dude was the seventh overall pick - have you seen much of anything from him that gives you much hope that he was be elite at his position?
We saw flashes of potential elite play last year. Baltimore, Washington, the Dallas game where he had 9 pressures. Lawrence didn’t look elite at the beginning of his career.
Didn't the Giants play him out of position until last year?
RE: 5th overall edge rusher and 20 games is too soon?
Strahan was a second round pick from Texas Southern who played his high school ball in Germany. He was always supposed to be a project.
And he’s a hall of famer. Point is, not playing lights out in year one and one game into year 2, while disappointing, doesn’t mean he won’t get any better.
It seems like the 2 IDL, 2 edge rusher look we saw last year is the real base and not a product of the roster. And I was especially surprised to see how often both edge guys had their hands in the dirt.
They weren't ready for last night. Dallas is pretty much a veteran team; they were ready. I'm not surprised the rookies were a bit overwhelmed. They'd never played a real NFL game, never mind SNF. But the veterans should have been better. I said in the game thread that Dex had been quiet. Dex, Williams, Ojulari, Okereke, Jackson... Those guys aren't kids. They should have set a tone.
KT and Neal looked the same as last year. That's gonna be a problem unless they improve quickly.
I don't believe in "coming out flat." You always look "flat" when you're getting your ass kicked. But they folded pretty easily last night. Alarming.
It’s way too early for this. It will always be fascinating how some guys don’t get the same energy.
When is it not too early? Dude was the seventh overall pick - have you seen much of anything from him that gives you much hope that he was be elite at his position?
No, except against the Jeff Saturday coached Colts and the corpse formerly known as Nick Foles.
looked entirely beatable. The two freak turnovers really changed how the game went. The defense wasn't terrible, but you can't ignore that there was zero pass rush from the giants.
I get preaching patience, but we're not talking about a QB who needs the game to slow down. KT should be flashing more by now.
Exactly. You knew a couple weeks into his rookie year that Sauce Gardner was a stud and CB is arguably the hardest position to play in the NFL. I don’t think our 6th round rookie CB struggled as bad as Neal has. Out Late round DT showed more positives than Neal has!
We didn't make mistakes and we made a ton yesterday.
This team is young and not good enough to gove Dallas a 13 point lead.
The D did what it did all last year bend don't break. FG not TDs. Which would have been enough especially in the weather. If the offense and special teams don't keep handing Dallas points and field position.
No one on Dallas offense stood out last night, no one killed us..
Dallas defense and poor execution on offense and special teams beat us.
singling out players after last night's game. I can pick out like 2 guys that played well and that's it. The team crapped the bed, period.
This isn't what we're going to look like next week, I'm very sure of that.
Again, this is not solely about last night.
Exactly. For half the year last year, or more, we were told, he's a rookie, he was hurt, he gets pressures, etc. For that long we could buy it. Then he had one monster game and another good game, and you think he turned the corner. But, for almost an entire season, he was not a special player. I don't think he sucked. But, he was not a difference maker. Last night, year 2 with injuries on the OL, I was expecting a difference maker.
Again, does he suck? No. But, a #5 pick at a position where guys tend to have an easier time making an impact early on, he has been mostly impactless.
It’s way too early for this. It will always be fascinating how some guys don’t get the same energy.
When is it not too early? Dude was the seventh overall pick - have you seen much of anything from him that gives you much hope that he was be elite at his position?
We saw flashes of potential elite play last year. Baltimore, Washington, the Dallas game where he had 9 pressures. Lawrence didn’t look elite at the beginning of his career.
Look at the effect that Hutchinson has on an opposing Oline vs what we got in Thibs. Hutch was held on every play, had the OT lining up in the backfield on pass plays, and the OT was jumping early every other snap.
With Thibs we get excuses. What a difference 3 spots in the draft make
That's an interesting point about Hutch. He is the centerpiece of that Lions D. He's always coming and an offense needs to know exactly where he is pre-snap.
KT, right now, is a complimentary player at best...
I was never a fan of Thibs at Oregon on predraft discussions last year
I thought he disappeared for significant periods during games
I actually thought he might be a tad lazy during last years predraft discussions on BBI
Then when he did play for us last year I thought he only had 1 pass rush move on the outside .
I hope I am wrong.
If it’s the same at the end of the year then there is a cause for concern.
I agree with this 100%. It's the comparisons to AT that Neal and Thibs get that kind of irk me. Most first round busts suck early on...AT is an outlier, not an example.
....Look at the effect that Hutchinson has on an opposing Oline vs what we got in Thibs. Hutch was held on every play, had the OT lining up in the backfield on pass plays, and the OT was jumping early every other snap.
With Thibs we get excuses. What a difference 3 spots in the draft make
Yep, made this point about Hutch in my Kayvon thread over the weekend: it's about power + athleticism yields a bigger range of pass rush moves; KT may be lacking some in the former.
"*I am going to try and not make this too long because the Thibodeaux fans get really offended, really easily. First off: I have 800+ grades on my master sheet along with another 400+ “training camp body” labels. Thibdodeaux is in the top 15. So yes, I do like him, and I do project him to be a very good football player in the NFL. A starter with high, sky-high, upside. There is some Harold Landry in his game. That said, I do not see him being the All-Pro or even perennial Pro Bowl type. When it comes to the “effort” shortcomings, this is NOT a guy that walks up and down the field. He does NOT play with the “I don’t care” label. There is more to effort than sheer hustle, however.
My issues with Thibodeaux revolve around what he did against his best competition. If he lost initially, if he got locked on to, I did not see the secondary moves. I didn’t see the secondary wiggle to try and re-gain a position. The contrast between him and the other top 5 edge guys in the class in that department is obvious. He also had too many dumb penalties. When it isn’t easy for him (he matched up against some awful OTs), he got frustrated and immature. He didn’t pin his ears back and elevate his game. To me, that is effort and mental toughness that just isn’t there. It is a crucial, borderline vital trait to playing the edge."
RE: here are Sy56 comments from the 2022 draft preview. Likes him a lot
"*I am going to try and not make this too long because the Thibodeaux fans get really offended, really easily. First off: I have 800+ grades on my master sheet along with another 400+ “training camp body” labels. Thibdodeaux is in the top 15. So yes, I do like him, and I do project him to be a very good football player in the NFL. A starter with high, sky-high, upside. There is some Harold Landry in his game. That said, I do not see him being the All-Pro or even perennial Pro Bowl type. When it comes to the “effort” shortcomings, this is NOT a guy that walks up and down the field. He does NOT play with the “I don’t care” label. There is more to effort than sheer hustle, however.
My issues with Thibodeaux revolve around what he did against his best competition. If he lost initially, if he got locked on to, I did not see the secondary moves. I didn’t see the secondary wiggle to try and re-gain a position. The contrast between him and the other top 5 edge guys in the class in that department is obvious. He also had too many dumb penalties. When it isn’t easy for him (he matched up against some awful OTs), he got frustrated and immature. He didn’t pin his ears back and elevate his game. To me, that is effort and mental toughness that just isn’t there. It is a crucial, borderline vital trait to playing the edge."
He was pretty invisible against Utah twice and I didn't love the pick at the time. If we are getting a Mathias Kiwanuka with him that's simply not good enough for where he was selected.
"*I am going to try and not make this too long because the Thibodeaux fans get really offended, really easily. First off: I have 800+ grades on my master sheet along with another 400+ “training camp body” labels. Thibdodeaux is in the top 15. So yes, I do like him, and I do project him to be a very good football player in the NFL. A starter with high, sky-high, upside. There is some Harold Landry in his game. That said, I do not see him being the All-Pro or even perennial Pro Bowl type. When it comes to the “effort” shortcomings, this is NOT a guy that walks up and down the field. He does NOT play with the “I don’t care” label. There is more to effort than sheer hustle, however.
My issues with Thibodeaux revolve around what he did against his best competition. If he lost initially, if he got locked on to, I did not see the secondary moves. I didn’t see the secondary wiggle to try and re-gain a position. The contrast between him and the other top 5 edge guys in the class in that department is obvious. He also had too many dumb penalties. When it isn’t easy for him (he matched up against some awful OTs), he got frustrated and immature. He didn’t pin his ears back and elevate his game. To me, that is effort and mental toughness that just isn’t there. It is a crucial, borderline vital trait to playing the edge."
He was pretty invisible against Utah twice and I didn't love the pick at the time. If we are getting a Mathias Kiwanuka with him that's simply not good enough for where he was selected.
I'll get back to Wink and the Defensive coaching staff. If the guy is an obvious talent then it's up to them to bring it out of him.
Again, you guys need to calm down. If he has 2 sacks against Arizona next Sunday, are you going to say that it was just luck because Arizona is a bad team?
Again, you guys need to calm down. If he has 2 sacks against Arizona next Sunday, are you going to say that it was just luck because Arizona is a bad team?
Luck? No. But, also not representative of what we've seen of him previously.
Again, you guys need to calm down. If he has 2 sacks against Arizona next Sunday, are you going to say that it was just luck because Arizona is a bad team?
So, it is your position that last year was more of an aberration and just move on?
Again, you guys need to calm down. If he has 2 sacks against Arizona next Sunday, are you going to say that it was just luck because Arizona is a bad team?
Arguing with hypotheticals now? Always the hallmark of a strong case.
Again, you guys need to calm down. If he has 2 sacks against Arizona next Sunday, are you going to say that it was just luck because Arizona is a bad team?
So, it is your position that last year was more of an aberration and just move on?
Again, you guys need to calm down. If he has 2 sacks against Arizona next Sunday, are you going to say that it was just luck because Arizona is a bad team?
It's not just about getting 10 sacks by the end of the year and saying everything is okay (although it's a step in the right direction). It's about being a disruptive edge rusher, getting pressures, getting hits, forcing holds and false starts, and blowing up plays/drives.
Again, you guys need to calm down. If he has 2 sacks against Arizona next Sunday, are you going to say that it was just luck because Arizona is a bad team?
It's not just about getting 10 sacks by the end of the year and saying everything is okay (although it's a step in the right direction). It's about being a disruptive edge rusher, getting pressures, getting hits, forcing holds and false starts, and blowing up plays/drives.
That is what you hope you signed at #5 overall.
Yes, and we really only saw that in 1 game thus far.
passion. He's shown that he can make some very athletic plays and take over a game, but I don't see it consistently enough. Maybe Wink needs to light a fire under him weekly.
Has officially reached his ceiling at the age of 22 and playing 15 NFL games for his career (not even a full season). He has nowhere to go but down from here. I wonder if we can at least get a 6th round pick for him.
Let's cut our losses now.
I seriously wonder if some people actually watched football and know what is going on. One loss and Joe schoen sucks, daboll sucks, thibodeaux sucks. The overreaction is absolutely mind-numbing.
where he's flying all over the field making plays. Not enough of those games but he's had them. He's had quarters where he's flying all over the place. Carter has had moments, not quarters and definitely not games. Thibs needs to be better but he's better than Carter ever was.
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In comment 16200473 ajr2456 said:
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It’s way too early for this. It will always be fascinating how some guys don’t get the same energy.
When is it not too early? Dude was the seventh overall pick - have you seen much of anything from him that gives you much hope that he was be elite at his position?
We saw flashes of potential elite play last year. Baltimore, Washington, the Dallas game where he had 9 pressures. Lawrence didn’t look elite at the beginning of his career.
Didn't the Giants play him out of position until last year?
There's some on this board who would be fine with Thibodeaux not being productive.
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in his first year starting full time.
Strahan was a second round pick from Texas Southern who played his high school ball in Germany. He was always supposed to be a project.
And he’s a hall of famer. Point is, not playing lights out in year one and one game into year 2, while disappointing, doesn’t mean he won’t get any better.
It was all the offense and special teams that was their undoing
I seriously like what you did there!
KT and Neal looked the same as last year. That's gonna be a problem unless they improve quickly.
I don't believe in "coming out flat." You always look "flat" when you're getting your ass kicked. But they folded pretty easily last night. Alarming.
But everyone was horrible last night. The bad play spread through the team like Covid. Hard to just single out KT.
I believe the Cards are the worst team in the NFL. So, the entire team is going to get a chance right away to exorcise some of last night's demons.
My biggest surprise and disappointment was our ability to pressure Dak. I thought we'd look like they did on D.
It was all the offense and special teams that was their undoing
The Cowboys only punted three times.
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It’s way too early for this. It will always be fascinating how some guys don’t get the same energy.
When is it not too early? Dude was the seventh overall pick - have you seen much of anything from him that gives you much hope that he was be elite at his position?
No, except against the Jeff Saturday coached Colts and the corpse formerly known as Nick Foles.
This isn't what we're going to look like next week, I'm very sure of that.
We will see if it changes but it doesn't look like spending big on Leo and Adoree will be in the cards for next year
This isn't what we're going to look like next week, I'm very sure of that.
Again, this is not solely about last night.
The big talk all offseason was "did the Giants close the gap"...all you needed to do was watch the two defenses play and the answer was clearly "no".
It was especially true of the front 7. The Giants just aren't in the same class as the Cowboys. My fear is that the same will be true of the Eagles.
This team is young and not good enough to gove Dallas a 13 point lead.
The D did what it did all last year bend don't break. FG not TDs. Which would have been enough especially in the weather. If the offense and special teams don't keep handing Dallas points and field position.
No one on Dallas offense stood out last night, no one killed us..
Dallas defense and poor execution on offense and special teams beat us.
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singling out players after last night's game. I can pick out like 2 guys that played well and that's it. The team crapped the bed, period.
This isn't what we're going to look like next week, I'm very sure of that.
Again, this is not solely about last night.
Again, does he suck? No. But, a #5 pick at a position where guys tend to have an easier time making an impact early on, he has been mostly impactless.
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In comment 16200473 ajr2456 said:
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It’s way too early for this. It will always be fascinating how some guys don’t get the same energy.
When is it not too early? Dude was the seventh overall pick - have you seen much of anything from him that gives you much hope that he was be elite at his position?
We saw flashes of potential elite play last year. Baltimore, Washington, the Dallas game where he had 9 pressures. Lawrence didn’t look elite at the beginning of his career.
Look at the effect that Hutchinson has on an opposing Oline vs what we got in Thibs. Hutch was held on every play, had the OT lining up in the backfield on pass plays, and the OT was jumping early every other snap.
With Thibs we get excuses. What a difference 3 spots in the draft make
KT, right now, is a complimentary player at best...
I actually thought he might be a tad lazy during last years predraft discussions on BBI
Then when he did play for us last year I thought he only had 1 pass rush move on the outside .
I hope I am wrong.
Don’t be sorry…the 7th pick ain’t any better 😂
I agree with this 100%. It's the comparisons to AT that Neal and Thibs get that kind of irk me. Most first round busts suck early on...AT is an outlier, not an example.
It's bad enough to miss on one top 10 pick missing on two is a complete disaster.
Seems like the Giants can't even be saved from themselves
With Thibs we get excuses. What a difference 3 spots in the draft make
Yep, made this point about Hutch in my Kayvon thread over the weekend: it's about power + athleticism yields a bigger range of pass rush moves; KT may be lacking some in the former.
"*I am going to try and not make this too long because the Thibodeaux fans get really offended, really easily. First off: I have 800+ grades on my master sheet along with another 400+ “training camp body” labels. Thibdodeaux is in the top 15. So yes, I do like him, and I do project him to be a very good football player in the NFL. A starter with high, sky-high, upside. There is some Harold Landry in his game. That said, I do not see him being the All-Pro or even perennial Pro Bowl type. When it comes to the “effort” shortcomings, this is NOT a guy that walks up and down the field. He does NOT play with the “I don’t care” label. There is more to effort than sheer hustle, however.
My issues with Thibodeaux revolve around what he did against his best competition. If he lost initially, if he got locked on to, I did not see the secondary moves. I didn’t see the secondary wiggle to try and re-gain a position. The contrast between him and the other top 5 edge guys in the class in that department is obvious. He also had too many dumb penalties. When it isn’t easy for him (he matched up against some awful OTs), he got frustrated and immature. He didn’t pin his ears back and elevate his game. To me, that is effort and mental toughness that just isn’t there. It is a crucial, borderline vital trait to playing the edge."
"*I am going to try and not make this too long because the Thibodeaux fans get really offended, really easily. First off: I have 800+ grades on my master sheet along with another 400+ “training camp body” labels. Thibdodeaux is in the top 15. So yes, I do like him, and I do project him to be a very good football player in the NFL. A starter with high, sky-high, upside. There is some Harold Landry in his game. That said, I do not see him being the All-Pro or even perennial Pro Bowl type. When it comes to the “effort” shortcomings, this is NOT a guy that walks up and down the field. He does NOT play with the “I don’t care” label. There is more to effort than sheer hustle, however.
My issues with Thibodeaux revolve around what he did against his best competition. If he lost initially, if he got locked on to, I did not see the secondary moves. I didn’t see the secondary wiggle to try and re-gain a position. The contrast between him and the other top 5 edge guys in the class in that department is obvious. He also had too many dumb penalties. When it isn’t easy for him (he matched up against some awful OTs), he got frustrated and immature. He didn’t pin his ears back and elevate his game. To me, that is effort and mental toughness that just isn’t there. It is a crucial, borderline vital trait to playing the edge."
He was pretty invisible against Utah twice and I didn't love the pick at the time. If we are getting a Mathias Kiwanuka with him that's simply not good enough for where he was selected.
Strahan had an injury and barely played in his rookie year. He didn't start until 1994 where I believe he had around 7 sacks.
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BUT:
"*I am going to try and not make this too long because the Thibodeaux fans get really offended, really easily. First off: I have 800+ grades on my master sheet along with another 400+ “training camp body” labels. Thibdodeaux is in the top 15. So yes, I do like him, and I do project him to be a very good football player in the NFL. A starter with high, sky-high, upside. There is some Harold Landry in his game. That said, I do not see him being the All-Pro or even perennial Pro Bowl type. When it comes to the “effort” shortcomings, this is NOT a guy that walks up and down the field. He does NOT play with the “I don’t care” label. There is more to effort than sheer hustle, however.
My issues with Thibodeaux revolve around what he did against his best competition. If he lost initially, if he got locked on to, I did not see the secondary moves. I didn’t see the secondary wiggle to try and re-gain a position. The contrast between him and the other top 5 edge guys in the class in that department is obvious. He also had too many dumb penalties. When it isn’t easy for him (he matched up against some awful OTs), he got frustrated and immature. He didn’t pin his ears back and elevate his game. To me, that is effort and mental toughness that just isn’t there. It is a crucial, borderline vital trait to playing the edge."
He was pretty invisible against Utah twice and I didn't love the pick at the time. If we are getting a Mathias Kiwanuka with him that's simply not good enough for where he was selected.
I'll get back to Wink and the Defensive coaching staff. If the guy is an obvious talent then it's up to them to bring it out of him.
It's bad enough to miss on one top 10 pick missing on two is a complete disaster.
It appears they did
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in his first year starting full time.
Strahan had an injury and barely played in his rookie year. He didn't start until 1994 where I believe he had around 7 sacks.
His second season is when he had the 4.5 sacks that I mentioned. It was his first season starting.
So, it is your position that last year was more of an aberration and just move on?
Arguing with hypotheticals now? Always the hallmark of a strong case.
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Again, you guys need to calm down. If he has 2 sacks against Arizona next Sunday, are you going to say that it was just luck because Arizona is a bad team?
So, it is your position that last year was more of an aberration and just move on?
Should read "last night"...
It's not just about getting 10 sacks by the end of the year and saying everything is okay (although it's a step in the right direction). It's about being a disruptive edge rusher, getting pressures, getting hits, forcing holds and false starts, and blowing up plays/drives.
That is what you hope you signed at #5 overall.
Quote:
Again, you guys need to calm down. If he has 2 sacks against Arizona next Sunday, are you going to say that it was just luck because Arizona is a bad team?
It's not just about getting 10 sacks by the end of the year and saying everything is okay (although it's a step in the right direction). It's about being a disruptive edge rusher, getting pressures, getting hits, forcing holds and false starts, and blowing up plays/drives.
That is what you hope you signed at #5 overall.
Parsons is being used effectively against the pass. He does not have as many tackles as many LBs in the league. last year he was well below the curve
Let's cut our losses now.
I seriously wonder if some people actually watched football and know what is going on. One loss and Joe schoen sucks, daboll sucks, thibodeaux sucks. The overreaction is absolutely mind-numbing.