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Neal has till end of year- prove he is successful draft pick

amindan54 : 9/13/2023 9:20 am
once he gets moved to G, thats it - its over.
he has 16 games.

as a G i dont think he will ever get the 5th year option exercised.

its 15 million dollars for a 5th year option OL.

even if he is a successful G, he wont get a 5th year option.
i guess if he gets to zack martin type G maybe he can get the option but thats very low chance.

we have to decide on 5th year option in roughly 16 months.
I realize I'm in the minority here...  
mittenedman : 9/13/2023 9:27 am : link
...but I'm perfectly fine moving him to G, where I think his skillset fits much better. IMO, he just can't play in space, and has lost all confidence. His power presence is gone too.

The good news is, the Giants need a good G very badly. So it certainly wouldn't be the end of the world.

What they absolutely can't have happen is to get zero ROI on a top 10 pick. Can't have it.
His flaws won’t disappear if he moves to guard. The Giants and half  
Ivan15 : 9/13/2023 9:28 am : link
The league missed the big red flag that he didn’t do drills at the combine or pro day.
We needed a RT  
JoeyBigBlue : 9/13/2023 9:30 am : link
Badly heading into the 22 draft, but drafting a RT was a poor use of resources. The Giants already have a top flight OT in Andrew Thomas. We cant use over $8 million of cap space each on two tackles. Especially when you know Thomas is due for a big raise. In hindsight we should of drafted Garrett Wilson, and gotten a second or third round tackle to play RT.
RE: We needed a RT  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/13/2023 9:31 am : link
In comment 16204222 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
Badly heading into the 22 draft, but drafting a RT was a poor use of resources. The Giants already have a top flight OT in Andrew Thomas. We cant use over $8 million of cap space each on two tackles. Especially when you know Thomas is due for a big raise. In hindsight we should of drafted Garrett Wilson, and gotten a second or third round tackle to play RT.


Thomas just got paid no?
RE: RE: We needed a RT  
JoeyBigBlue : 9/13/2023 9:32 am : link
In comment 16204225 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
In comment 16204222 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


Badly heading into the 22 draft, but drafting a RT was a poor use of resources. The Giants already have a top flight OT in Andrew Thomas. We cant use over $8 million of cap space each on two tackles. Especially when you know Thomas is due for a big raise. In hindsight we should of drafted Garrett Wilson, and gotten a second or third round tackle to play RT.



Thomas just got paid no?



As a top 5 pick, Thomas was still counting 8+ mill against our cap last season.
RE: His flaws won’t disappear if he moves to guard. The Giants and half  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/13/2023 9:33 am : link
In comment 16204216 Ivan15 said:
Quote:
The league missed the big red flag that he didn’t do drills at the combine or pro day.


Sure they will. That's the difference between guards and tackles.
RE: His flaws won’t disappear if he moves to guard. The Giants and half  
RicFlair : 9/13/2023 9:35 am : link
In comment 16204216 Ivan15 said:
Quote:
The league missed the big red flag that he didn’t do drills at the combine or pro day.


His flaws are less exploitable at guard.
RE: His flaws won’t disappear if he moves to guard. The Giants and half  
Toth029 : 9/13/2023 9:35 am : link
In comment 16204216 Ivan15 said:
Quote:
The league missed the big red flag that he didn’t do drills at the combine or pro day.


I'm not an expert by any means, but I thought it's been said it is far easier to mask deficiencies at guard.
RE: I realize I'm in the minority here...  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/13/2023 9:36 am : link
In comment 16204214 mittenedman said:
Quote:
...but I'm perfectly fine moving him to G, where I think his skillset fits much better. IMO, he just can't play in space, and has lost all confidence. His power presence is gone too.

The good news is, the Giants need a good G very badly. So it certainly wouldn't be the end of the world.

What they absolutely can't have happen is to get zero ROI on a top 10 pick. Can't have it.

Until Neal stops getting pushed around like he's on skates whenever he gets bullrushed, it won't matter if you keep him out of space (which is also currently a liability, to be fair).

If it was just that Neal wasn't getting to his spot to hold the point on the edge, then a move to OG would seem to be promising. But he's getting overpowered by edge rushers also. What do you think happens when he goes inside against guys that are 50-100 pounds heavier than the edge defenders that are pushing him around?

I'm hoping we get to see some brute toughness from him soon. Then at least there's some promise for the kid somewhere on the OL. Right now I think he'd be a weakness at any of the five spots on the line.
RE: Neal has till end of year- prove he is successful draft pick  
David B. : 9/13/2023 9:40 am : link
And then you're gonna do what? Stamp your feet and hold your breath till you turn Giants blue?
RE: We needed a RT  
ThomasG : 9/13/2023 9:40 am : link
In comment 16204222 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
Badly heading into the 22 draft, but drafting a RT was a poor use of resources. The Giants already have a top flight OT in Andrew Thomas. We cant use over $8 million of cap space each on two tackles. Especially when you know Thomas is due for a big raise. In hindsight we should of drafted Garrett Wilson, and gotten a second or third round tackle to play RT.


Really not a well thought out post.

Right Tackle is not just an afterthought any longer based on how edge rushers move to both sides. It is a premium position as well. And Thomas was not thought of as a top flight OT yet when the draft came around in 2022.

It is also bad use of hindsight to think that Schoen and his guys can scout & find more successful Tackles in Rd 2 or Rd 3 versus the top of the draft. Wilson would have been a good pick but probably would have had a tough night on Sunday when Dallas was punishing the "hypothetical" RT you say Schoen should have grabbed in Rd 3.
RE: RE: His flaws won’t disappear if he moves to guard. The Giants and half  
HBart : 9/13/2023 9:43 am : link
In comment 16204227 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 16204216 Ivan15 said:


Quote:


The league missed the big red flag that he didn’t do drills at the combine or pro day.



Sure they will. That's the difference between guards and tackles.

Exactly.

It would suck given his draft position and renewed need to find a RT, but were he to end up a quality guard he'd be far from a bust.
Neal was awful  
Tuckrule : 9/13/2023 9:43 am : link
Glowinski was worse. vet guard shouldn’t have games like that. Also his shit play didn’t help a second year tackle. I’d dump glowinski and find a new guard now before I move neal anywhere. It’s one game and it’s week 1. Yes, he seemed a bit slow but now I think it’s mental. He’s in his own head. One good game this week and he’ll get that confidence back. Glowinski is flat out garbage and should be benched immediately. Unfortunately I don’t trust Ezeudu but can he be any worse than glowksinki. At least Josh will get push in the run game .
Should have added. Put Mckethan in the game at guard  
Tuckrule : 9/13/2023 9:44 am : link
.
RE: RE: We needed a RT  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/13/2023 9:54 am : link
In comment 16204244 ThomasG said:
Quote:
In comment 16204222 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


Badly heading into the 22 draft, but drafting a RT was a poor use of resources. The Giants already have a top flight OT in Andrew Thomas. We cant use over $8 million of cap space each on two tackles. Especially when you know Thomas is due for a big raise. In hindsight we should of drafted Garrett Wilson, and gotten a second or third round tackle to play RT.



Really not a well thought out post.

Right Tackle is not just an afterthought any longer based on how edge rushers move to both sides. It is a premium position as well. And Thomas was not thought of as a top flight OT yet when the draft came around in 2022.

It is also bad use of hindsight to think that Schoen and his guys can scout & find more successful Tackles in Rd 2 or Rd 3 versus the top of the draft. Wilson would have been a good pick but probably would have had a tough night on Sunday when Dallas was punishing the "hypothetical" RT you say Schoen should have grabbed in Rd 3.


I would not dismiss this argument.

Your argument is basically the same that was used against me before the 2022 NFL Draft. I publicly asked if spending a top 7 pick on a RT was wise. The response was identical to the two points you just made.

However, I'd rather have Wilson than Neal right now.
RE: RE: We needed a RT  
JoeyBigBlue : 9/13/2023 9:56 am : link
In comment 16204244 ThomasG said:
Quote:
In comment 16204222 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


Badly heading into the 22 draft, but drafting a RT was a poor use of resources. The Giants already have a top flight OT in Andrew Thomas. We cant use over $8 million of cap space each on two tackles. Especially when you know Thomas is due for a big raise. In hindsight we should of drafted Garrett Wilson, and gotten a second or third round tackle to play RT.



Really not a well thought out post.

Right Tackle is not just an afterthought any longer based on how edge rushers move to both sides. It is a premium position as well. And Thomas was not thought of as a top flight OT yet when the draft came around in 2022.

It is also bad use of hindsight to think that Schoen and his guys can scout & find more successful Tackles in Rd 2 or Rd 3 versus the top of the draft. Wilson would have been a good pick but probably would have had a tough night on Sunday when Dallas was punishing the "hypothetical" RT you say Schoen should have grabbed in Rd 3.



Thomas became a stud tackle in year 2, everyone in football knew he was an ascending talent. He showed improvement at the end his rookie season, showed his talent year 2, and became an All Pro year 3.

Finding a RT in round 2 or 3 is not impossible either. The Seahawks drafted Abraham Lucas, in the top of the third round and he’s been a better player than Neal.
RE: We needed a RT  
JoeSchoens11 : 9/13/2023 10:01 am : link
In comment 16204222 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
Badly heading into the 22 draft, but drafting a RT was a poor use of resources. The Giants already have a top flight OT in Andrew Thomas. We cant use over $8 million of cap space each on two tackles. Especially when you know Thomas is due for a big raise. In hindsight we should of drafted Garrett Wilson, and gotten a second or third round tackle to play RT.
Drafting the wrist table
...  
ryanmkeane : 9/13/2023 10:02 am : link
Evan Neal will turn 23 next week and has played 14 NFL games. You guys need to give it a bit of time here.
Not sure what his potential  
Lines of Scrimmage : 9/13/2023 10:02 am : link
is as a OG if he winds up getting moved to that spot. He would need to be a outstanding one if it goes this way imv.

I did say in the offseason that the Giants needed to make a honest AND accurate evaluation of Neal. If he continues to play like the other night then the FO/CS needs to be held accountable for not being better prepared imv.

I am still hoping he turns it around. Quickly.
...  
ryanmkeane : 9/13/2023 10:03 am : link
Again, everyone saying he has "flaws" are reacting to what he has put on tape thus far in his 14 game NFL career. You guys are acting as if he's this finished product who will never correct them.

Heard it all before.
RE: RE: We needed a RT  
JoeSchoens11 : 9/13/2023 10:05 am : link
In comment 16204287 JoeSchoens11 said:
Quote:
In comment 16204222 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


Badly heading into the 22 draft, but drafting a RT was a poor use of resources. The Giants already have a top flight OT in Andrew Thomas. We cant use over $8 million of cap space each on two tackles. Especially when you know Thomas is due for a big raise. In hindsight we should of drafted Garrett Wilson, and gotten a second or third round tackle to play RT.

Drafting the wrist table
sorry, posting error.

Drafting the worst tackle in the league @ #7 is obviously a waste of resources. If he ended up as a pro bowl caliber player then that’s ok. Having a great oline absolutely would change our offense and allow us to save cap space on skill position players since quality players (not top of the market players) are all that’s needed to produce.
...  
ryanmkeane : 9/13/2023 10:08 am : link
JoeSchoens, and mostly everyone on this message board and NFL media said the same thing about Andrew Thomas, that he was the "worst tackle of the bunch" in the 1st round.

Nope, ended up being the best and an elite player.
Again - BBI shows "less" patience than 2-year olds  
Bob in Newburgh : 9/13/2023 10:10 am : link
You all may turn out to be correct, but not because of a maturity factor shown in your decision making timeline.

1 game against a good (by no means invincible team) should cause concern, but anything more is an over-reaction.

Just because he is tall and plays OT does not equate to him being the same as the "U" guy we drafted.
.....  
BrettNYG10 : 9/13/2023 10:12 am : link
When Neal was drafted, there were concerns about Thomas' longevity on this team, just after his second season. Some thought Neal would wind up replacing him on the left side.

Thomas then went on to become an All-Pro, one of the best tackles in the game.

Neal also missed a ton of time this off-season. He looked atrocious Sunday night, one of the worst performances we've seen from a tackle. But we need to be a little more patient.
RE: RE: RE: We needed a RT  
ThomasG : 9/13/2023 10:14 am : link
In comment 16204274 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 16204244 ThomasG said:


Quote:


In comment 16204222 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


Badly heading into the 22 draft, but drafting a RT was a poor use of resources. The Giants already have a top flight OT in Andrew Thomas. We cant use over $8 million of cap space each on two tackles. Especially when you know Thomas is due for a big raise. In hindsight we should of drafted Garrett Wilson, and gotten a second or third round tackle to play RT.



Really not a well thought out post.

Right Tackle is not just an afterthought any longer based on how edge rushers move to both sides. It is a premium position as well. And Thomas was not thought of as a top flight OT yet when the draft came around in 2022.

It is also bad use of hindsight to think that Schoen and his guys can scout & find more successful Tackles in Rd 2 or Rd 3 versus the top of the draft. Wilson would have been a good pick but probably would have had a tough night on Sunday when Dallas was punishing the "hypothetical" RT you say Schoen should have grabbed in Rd 3.



I would not dismiss this argument.

Your argument is basically the same that was used against me before the 2022 NFL Draft. I publicly asked if spending a top 7 pick on a RT was wise. The response was identical to the two points you just made.

However, I'd rather have Wilson than Neal right now.


Yes, it's not too difficult to go thru each draft 18 months later and say this was the better pick. The Giants still would still need a Right Tackle though but I am sure you can find one using that approach very easily.
Skinner  
NJLCO : 9/13/2023 10:14 am : link
Just look at his tape review from Sunday. Year 2 and this guy just looks lost on pass blocking. Can’t imagine how you fix him because it’s really bad for a player at this level.
RE: RE: RE: We needed a RT  
ThomasG : 9/13/2023 10:17 am : link
In comment 16204279 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:

Thomas became a stud tackle in year 2, everyone in football knew he was an ascending talent. He showed improvement at the end his rookie season, showed his talent year 2, and became an All Pro year 3.

Finding a RT in round 2 or 3 is not impossible either. The Seahawks drafted Abraham Lucas, in the top of the third round and he’s been a better player than Neal.


Thomas was an ascending talent that was still having injuries/surgeries in year 2. Not a compelling point anyway as you need two quality tackles.

And finding a WR in Rd 2 or Rd 3 is not impossible either. Right?
RE: Again - BBI shows  
Tom in NY : 9/13/2023 10:20 am : link
In comment 16204300 Bob in Newburgh said:
Quote:
You all may turn out to be correct, but not because of a maturity factor shown in your decision making timeline.

1 game against a good (by no means invincible team) should cause concern, but anything more is an over-reaction.

Just because he is tall and plays OT does not equate to him being the same as the "U" guy we drafted.


Agreed Bob.
It might be a good idea to go back and look at 'Sy's scouting notes on Neal prior to the '22 draft:
"*Prior to the start of the year, I had nearly no-doubt Neal was going to finish in the 90+ tier. But this is where you have to toss pre-conceived notions out the window when watching the tape. The truth is, Neal did not take a step forward. There are shortcomings within his skill set that arose weekly. The positive? These are all very correctable issues, and we see them corrected all the time. He has some of the same issues that Tristan Wirfs did coming out of Iowa in 2020. Wirfs was my OT1 in that class with a similar grade and is now an All-Pro. Neal can get on that path just as quickly, but I think he needs to settle into a position and remain there for a couple years. That hasn’t been the case since he was a high schooler. NYG would be an ideal destination for him. Insert him into the RT spot week 1 and they could have a top tier OT pair within a year or two. I would be excited to get this kid in blue."

".....remain there for a couple of years....within a year or two."
I'm just as alarmed at his lack of progress as anyone else, but has he even played in 17 games yet? Can we keep working with the kid to get improvement by year's end before throwing our hands up and declaring him a bust?
...  
ryanmkeane : 9/13/2023 10:22 am : link
The case for Garrett Wilson was that he's obviously a special type of player. Talent that only exists with maybe 3 or 4 other receivers in the league. It's like having Beckham in his prime without any of the baggage. The guy had 1,100 yards with Zach Wilson and Joe Flacco as his QB.

So, yeah, hindsight obviously. But yeah.
RE: RE: RE: RE: We needed a RT  
JoeyBigBlue : 9/13/2023 10:28 am : link
In comment 16204312 ThomasG said:
Quote:
In comment 16204279 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:



Thomas became a stud tackle in year 2, everyone in football knew he was an ascending talent. He showed improvement at the end his rookie season, showed his talent year 2, and became an All Pro year 3.

Finding a RT in round 2 or 3 is not impossible either. The Seahawks drafted Abraham Lucas, in the top of the third round and he’s been a better player than Neal.



Thomas was an ascending talent that was still having injuries/surgeries in year 2. Not a compelling point anyway as you need two quality tackles.

And finding a WR in Rd 2 or Rd 3 is not impossible either. Right?



My argument is that it not a good use of resources. You already have a top flight LT. With the 7th pick in the draft you can take a true No. 1 receiver, and allocate money to different positions.

If Neal were a stud and deserved a second contract, then you are paying two tackles over $20 mill a season. That limits you at other positions.
RE: ...  
Tom in NY : 9/13/2023 10:30 am : link
In comment 16204320 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
The case for Garrett Wilson was that he's obviously a special type of player. Talent that only exists with maybe 3 or 4 other receivers in the league. It's like having Beckham in his prime without any of the baggage. The guy had 1,100 yards with Zach Wilson and Joe Flacco as his QB.

So, yeah, hindsight obviously. But yeah.


Taking a WR at the top of round 1 when the team needed to get the Oline and Defense in shape would not have been a good use of resources. Yes, Wilson is a great player, but the Giants were at day 0 of what is likely a 3 year re-build. Is taking a WR the move to make there?
QB, OL, & DLine/Edge, CB are always going to be the building blocks to longer term success. Obviously you don't draft a player with a Round 2 grade in the 1st based on position, but if they had a 1st round grade on Neal (which 'Sy did) then you build the Oline first.
Bottom Line  
kelly : 9/13/2023 10:34 am : link
You have to fix the right side of the line and you have to do it with what we have on the roster.

What do people suggest?

Start with what is our best option at right guard?
I think Bredesen is our best answer at right guard. He gets good movement on the run game and is a better pass blocker.

EZ or SL play left guard. Both are better then Bredesen run blocking in space. They are more mobile. You hope they improve in pass blocking. Glow is not improving as pass blocking time to move on.

Neal stays at tackle a few more games. If no improvement EZ moves to right tackle and SL is the left guard. Or Neal goes to right guard and one of the others mans left guard.

Neal may be overpowered at tackle but ends get a running start. At guard its close in fighting. So he may be a good guard but not a good tackle. It happens.

You cannot maintain the status quo if there is not significant improvement. You will lose the locker room. Players expect that players not producing are going to find there way to the bench especially high priced FA and high draft picks, they need to produce. If you make changes and there is no improvement at least you tried. Players will understand that.
Tom  
ryanmkeane : 9/13/2023 10:34 am : link
yeah, probably, but look at Ja'Marr Chase. Bengals took him #3 overall. I'd say that was the right move that helped their franchise the best.
...  
ryanmkeane : 9/13/2023 10:35 am : link
sorry, #5 overall.
Neal  
AcidTest : 9/13/2023 10:36 am : link
very likely does not have the feet or lateral ability and mobility to play RT. His slow feet and poor lateral agility and mobility lead to bad hand placement and technique and waist bending.

As someone said, he did not do any drills at the combine or at Alabama's pro day. The fact that he has only played 14 games is also not an excuse. As someone else said, Abraham Lucas was drafted in the third round, and is a much better player than Neal. There are also many bad plays by Neal that were not in any way caused by him playing next to Glowinski. He is repeatedly beaten around the edge by speed rushers for example.

The problem is that he is all we have at RT this year. Any transition to guard will have to happen in the offseason.

Aside from Thomas and maybe Schmitz, all of our OL appear to have slow feet and poor lateral agility and mobility.
What  
AcidTest : 9/13/2023 10:40 am : link
is really striking is the number of plays where Neal is easily pushed backwards and falls down. It shows that he is completely unbalanced.
Thought we had to give guys  
ajr2456 : 9/13/2023 10:42 am : link
At least 4 years to prove it?
Abraham Lucas  
JoeyBigBlue : 9/13/2023 10:43 am : link
Was picked after Neal and Ezeudu and he’s a better player than both guys. I still have hope Ezeudu turns into a player, but the more I see of Neal, the less faith I have in him even becoming an average tackle.
He's not a RT  
GiantGrit : 9/13/2023 10:56 am : link
Some of his problems are confidence, some aren't. "give him more time" That's not going to fix his feet in the mud problem. If you watch Skinner's breakdown he's too slow and when DL fake a gap his plant foot gets stuck and he can't recover.

I try to be patient with young guys but I've personally seen enough.
RE: His flaws won’t disappear if he moves to guard. The Giants and half  
GiantGrit : 9/13/2023 10:57 am : link
In comment 16204216 Ivan15 said:
Quote:
The league missed the big red flag that he didn’t do drills at the combine or pro day.


He'll be better at guard. I just learned the drill info the last few days, definite red flag.
RE: ...  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/13/2023 11:01 am : link
In comment 16204288 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
Evan Neal will turn 23 next week and has played 14 NFL games. You guys need to give it a bit of time here.

You also wanted to give a bit of time to the following players:

Nate Solder
Alec Ogletree
Kenny Golladay
Kyle Rudolph
Ereck Flowers

Should I continue?
RE: We needed a RT  
Spiciest Memelord : 9/13/2023 11:02 am : link
In comment 16204222 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
Badly heading into the 22 draft, but drafting a RT was a poor use of resources. The Giants already have a top flight OT in Andrew Thomas. We cant use over $8 million of cap space each on two tackles. Especially when you know Thomas is due for a big raise. In hindsight we should of drafted Garrett Wilson, and gotten a second or third round tackle to play RT.


That would be a good problem to have.
RE: Abraham Lucas  
Spiciest Memelord : 9/13/2023 11:04 am : link
In comment 16204360 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
Was picked after Neal and Ezeudu and he’s a better player than both guys. I still have hope Ezeudu turns into a player, but the more I see of Neal, the less faith I have in him even becoming an average tackle.


As I mentioned at least with Flowers he lunges and flops around and tries to block, I have no clue what the hell I am seeing with Neal.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: We needed a RT  
ThomasG : 9/13/2023 11:07 am : link
In comment 16204328 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 16204312 ThomasG said:


Quote:


In comment 16204279 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:



Thomas became a stud tackle in year 2, everyone in football knew he was an ascending talent. He showed improvement at the end his rookie season, showed his talent year 2, and became an All Pro year 3.

Finding a RT in round 2 or 3 is not impossible either. The Seahawks drafted Abraham Lucas, in the top of the third round and he’s been a better player than Neal.



Thomas was an ascending talent that was still having injuries/surgeries in year 2. Not a compelling point anyway as you need two quality tackles.

And finding a WR in Rd 2 or Rd 3 is not impossible either. Right?




My argument is that it not a good use of resources. You already have a top flight LT. With the 7th pick in the draft you can take a true No. 1 receiver, and allocate money to different positions.

If Neal were a stud and deserved a second contract, then you are paying two tackles over $20 mill a season. That limits you at other positions.


Understood but do not agree. The idea was Neal was to be a stud and OTs are excellent use of resources. Especially ones that have played both sides which puts less pressure on having a credible Swing Tackle which is a necessity these days.

Money isn't a limiting factor when you find core players. And if you can find core players in your two OTs it is a windfall. Not saying WR isn't a prime position but Schoen obviously went to building up the lines before going to playmakers as his strategy. One that I happen to agree with since the volume of strong WRs coming out of college is only increasing.
RE: ...  
Biteymax22 : 9/13/2023 11:07 am : link
In comment 16204288 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
Evan Neal will turn 23 next week and has played 14 NFL games. You guys need to give it a bit of time here.


This. He was drafted 7th overall for a reason, at least give him a full season worth of games before you give up on him as a tackle.

Aside from about 4 players, the entire team looked off and a step slow Sunday night, I don't think that's who we are or who Evan is.
RE: Tom  
Tom in NY : 9/13/2023 11:07 am : link
In comment 16204341 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
yeah, probably, but look at Ja'Marr Chase. Bengals took him #3 overall. I'd say that was the right move that helped their franchise the best.


Chase is a great player, no doubt. I have noticed, however, that the Bengals do not have a championship yet since his selection. In fact, I believe they lost the SB because the could not protect Joe Burrow.
Taking WRs top 10 when the infrastructure (Oline/Defense) is not built is like eating as Snickers bar for dinner instead of a healthy meal. It tastes great, and you might even feel full for a short period of time, but not a great long term strategy. Let's see if Cin can get back to the AFC Championship this year or if they have peaked already.
I m not an oline guru but Neal doesn't seem to be able to move his  
Blue21 : 9/13/2023 11:21 am : link
Feet to keep up with edge rushers. Now does that mean he can't play guard? To me of course not. There are many great guards out there that can't play tackle. Let's hope he can turn this around but you can teach technique but not fast feet IMO. You either have them or you don't.
What is scaring me besides the slow feet  
JerseyCityJoe : 9/13/2023 11:46 am : link
Is that he looks soft. I hope I'm dead wrong about this.
Good grief  
JonC : 9/13/2023 11:49 am : link
Get the expectations in check, there's a long way to go for Neal, and the Giants.
JFC  
Thegratefulhead : 9/13/2023 11:51 am : link
Dude, lighten up.
Has this ever worked?  
Finch : 9/13/2023 11:58 am : link
Moving from OT to OG? I see this suggested every time an OT struggles but can’t think of many situations where switching positions actually worked out
A few things  
Mattman : 9/13/2023 12:15 pm : link
Progression isn’t linear and is different for everyone
Everyone has bad days (some more than others)
You need a lot of repetition for new technique to become muscle memory
Practice and preseason are limited now - now it’s “fuck it, we’ll do it live” on game day


This sounds correct to me  
NYDCBlue : 9/13/2023 12:19 pm : link
But I feel like you are overlooking that Thibs was picked even higher and he has proven to be nothing more than a JAG to date. That draft is starting to look down right brutal.
Kind of a bummer to think about  
Spiciest Memelord : 9/13/2023 12:35 pm : link
But I liked Flowers, Pugh and Richburg their rookie years better than Neal so far, and the trajectory suggest they might all wind up "better" players.
Problem with moving him to G after the season  
HarryCarson53 : 9/13/2023 12:38 pm : link
Is you still don't know if he can play guard. And what if he can't? Are we going to go ANOTHER year without competent guard play? If he doesn't show better this season as a tackle, you have to find someone else to play guard. We absolutely cannot count on Evan Neal at any position if he doesn't show marked improvement this year.

The time to move him to guard was this off-season.
Stop the panic  
dannyman3131 : 9/13/2023 12:46 pm : link
Evan Neal doesn't turn 23 until next week. He has a ton to work on but there is talent and size to work with.

The coaching staff failed the entire team on Sunday and the Oline was the most glaring issue so everyone is in panic mode. 90% of this board were saying the same shit about AT in the beginning of his second year. Relax
While he looks even worse than Flowers  
beatrixkiddo : 9/13/2023 12:50 pm : link
I think they need to have a stellar OG next to him to take off some pressure on him. Needs to be more concerned with protecting the edge than getting beat inside, needs to use his size to his advantage. He used to rag doll people in blocks, now he plays Patty cake. This is a coaching problem too
And this team does seem soft  
Spiciest Memelord : 9/13/2023 12:51 pm : link
I've seen more belly fire out of Flowers when things were going bad than anyone on this team has shown.
RE: Stop the panic  
JerseyCityJoe : 9/13/2023 12:52 pm : link
In comment 16204614 dannyman3131 said:
Quote:
Evan Neal doesn't turn 23 until next week. He has a ton to work on but there is talent and size to work with.

The coaching staff failed the entire team on Sunday and the Oline was the most glaring issue so everyone is in panic mode. 90% of this board were saying the same shit about AT in the beginning of his second year. Relax


Relax? This kid could get our $40 Million QB killed. I don't what has to be done buy relaxing is not it.
RE: RE: Stop the panic  
Spiciest Memelord : 9/13/2023 12:55 pm : link
In comment 16204626 JerseyCityJoe said:
Quote:
In comment 16204614 dannyman3131 said:


Quote:


Evan Neal doesn't turn 23 until next week. He has a ton to work on but there is talent and size to work with.

The coaching staff failed the entire team on Sunday and the Oline was the most glaring issue so everyone is in panic mode. 90% of this board were saying the same shit about AT in the beginning of his second year. Relax



Relax? This kid could get our $40 Million QB killed. I don't what has to be done buy relaxing is not it.


Good thing Jones bulked up. Would be brutal and unwatchable if he was Hurt's size.
Should Schoen  
US1 Giants : 9/13/2023 12:57 pm : link
be fired for choosing Neal and Thibodeaux with top 10 picks. I don't blame the players for where they are picked but the GM is to blame.
RE: RE: Stop the panic  
dannyman3131 : 9/13/2023 12:59 pm : link
In comment 16204626 JerseyCityJoe said:
Quote:
In comment 16204614 dannyman3131 said:


Quote:


Evan Neal doesn't turn 23 until next week. He has a ton to work on but there is talent and size to work with.

The coaching staff failed the entire team on Sunday and the Oline was the most glaring issue so everyone is in panic mode. 90% of this board were saying the same shit about AT in the beginning of his second year. Relax



Relax? This kid could get our $40 Million QB killed. I don't what has to be done buy relaxing is not it.


The game plan and blocking scheme almost got him killed. Did they have a TE over there at all? I didn't see it. Parsons and the Dallas DL may be the best in football and the coaching staff did nothing to help. They just left him on an island playing next to worst guard in the NFL.
RE: ...  
JoeSchoens11 : 9/13/2023 1:00 pm : link
In comment 16204296 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
JoeSchoens, and mostly everyone on this message board and NFL media said the same thing about Andrew Thomas, that he was the "worst tackle of the bunch" in the 1st round.

Nope, ended up being the best and an elite player.
The difference is that AT was a functional tackle who was arguably the worst of the big 4 after much of the 1st season. That was due to unprecedented solid rookie years for that draft. AT was better than a lot of starters and showed he belonged, despite possibly being ranked behind the other 3.

Neal was rated as the worst tackle in the entire nfl last year and played just as bad last week. He’s made it really hard to imagine he will be able to turn it around.

I wanted AT in that draft and was an Icky/Cross guy last year so I’ll admit some bias in trusting that AT would improve but not Neal
RE: RE: ...  
anon837 : 9/13/2023 1:10 pm : link
In comment 16204332 Tom in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 16204320 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


The case for Garrett Wilson was that he's obviously a special type of player. Talent that only exists with maybe 3 or 4 other receivers in the league. It's like having Beckham in his prime without any of the baggage. The guy had 1,100 yards with Zach Wilson and Joe Flacco as his QB.

So, yeah, hindsight obviously. But yeah.



Taking a WR at the top of round 1 when the team needed to get the Oline and Defense in shape would not have been a good use of resources.
That's the issue right there. OT can be had in to day 3. OL is a unit, not just one player. One stud on the line doesn't elevate the rest of the squad. One dominant Edge/LB or DT can change the fortune of your QB rush. One WR1 can change the dynamic of your receiving room. And those guys are rare after the 1st, let alone the 2nd rd. You want the All-Pro OT, I get it. But they are not needed. You need a high-caliber, high-functioning OT that can gel with the rest of the line. And you can find more of those OTs than game-changing WR1 or nightmarish edge rushers. I hope Neal proves me massively wrong that he was desperation reach. Because if he succeeds, that's one less position the team has to worry about.
RE: Should Schoen  
Spiciest Memelord : 9/13/2023 1:17 pm : link
In comment 16204634 US1 Giants said:
Quote:
be fired for choosing Neal and Thibodeaux with top 10 picks. I don't blame the players for where they are picked but the GM is to blame.


The Gettleman haters would certainly be having a meltdown if DG did that.

I would say any GM is going to miss even a high pick every now and then, but so far it seems we missed on two (or 1 and half?)
RE: RE: RE: Stop the panic  
JerseyCityJoe : 9/13/2023 1:32 pm : link
In comment 16204641 dannyman3131 said:
Quote:
In comment 16204626 JerseyCityJoe said:


Quote:


In comment 16204614 dannyman3131 said:


Quote:


Evan Neal doesn't turn 23 until next week. He has a ton to work on but there is talent and size to work with.

The coaching staff failed the entire team on Sunday and the Oline was the most glaring issue so everyone is in panic mode. 90% of this board were saying the same shit about AT in the beginning of his second year. Relax



Relax? This kid could get our $40 Million QB killed. I don't what has to be done buy relaxing is not it.



The game plan and blocking scheme almost got him killed. Did they have a TE over there at all? I didn't see it. Parsons and the Dallas DL may be the best in football and the coaching staff did nothing to help. They just left him on an island playing next to worst guard in the NFL.


Fair point. However, Neal was playing against 2nd and 3rd string guys a good chunk of the game that just lit him up. The game plan can't be Neal can't block anyone so lets get 2 other guys to help him.
The Neal year 2/3 "Thomas Jump" takes are wrong  
3rd and a cab ride : 9/13/2023 1:32 pm : link
Thomas in Y2 was ascending and had one major flaw, getting beaten inside - he fixed it and the rest is history. Neal has numerous issues, balance, strength and technique. He gave up pressures/sacks because of all three. He needs major work, in short, his foot speed may limit him to guard.

Skinner pointed out a rep vs wide 9 alignment where he didn't vertical set - that is a very basic error that I wouldn't expect.

Thomas jumped in Y2 because there was little to correct, Neal has a lot of work to do - I sincerely hope Evan can turn it around because he comes across as someone who works hard at his craft.
By the end of his rookie season  
JoeyBigBlue : 9/13/2023 1:40 pm : link
Thomas a good Left tackle, you saw the growth from his first few games. By the end of year two he was an above average left tackle. Year 3 he was an All Pro. There has been steady growth and improvement in his game throughout his career.

Neal has not shown the same growth at any point. He’s had bad games to flat out terrible performances mostly every week last season. Sunday, he was flat out horrible. The comparisons between the two players need to stop.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
JoeSchoens11 : 9/13/2023 1:45 pm : link
In comment 16204656 anon837 said:
Quote:
In comment 16204332 Tom in NY said:


Quote:


In comment 16204320 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


The case for Garrett Wilson was that he's obviously a special type of player. Talent that only exists with maybe 3 or 4 other receivers in the league. It's like having Beckham in his prime without any of the baggage. The guy had 1,100 yards with Zach Wilson and Joe Flacco as his QB.

So, yeah, hindsight obviously. But yeah.



Taking a WR at the top of round 1 when the team needed to get the Oline and Defense in shape would not have been a good use of resources.

That's the issue right there. OT can be had in to day 3. OL is a unit, not just one player. One stud on the line doesn't elevate the rest of the squad. One dominant Edge/LB or DT can change the fortune of your QB rush. One WR1 can change the dynamic of your receiving room. And those guys are rare after the 1st, let alone the 2nd rd. You want the All-Pro OT, I get it. But they are not needed. You need a high-caliber, high-functioning OT that can gel with the rest of the line. And you can find more of those OTs than game-changing WR1 or nightmarish edge rushers. I hope Neal proves me massively wrong that he was desperation reach. Because if he succeeds, that's one less position the team has to worry about.
A great skill player can mask bad blocking to some degree, but a great oline opens up an offense for even sub-par players. A bad one sinks the entire offense.

Of course you can find any position in round 3 or later, it’s just highly unlikely that they are quality nfl-starter level. Hill, St. Brown, Kupp, Diggs, McLaurin are all exceptional wrs who were late picks. All things being equal, I’d rather gamble on wrs late, and work on the lines earlier in the draft.

There’s simply not enough depth in the league to survive missing on a lineman that you were expecting to start.
if he switches to guard  
bc4life : 9/13/2023 2:48 pm : link
and plays lights out, he'll get the option.

Ha Ha Tom  
RollBlue : 9/13/2023 2:52 pm : link
the Bengals have not yet won a SB with Chase? Are you kidding me with that? Do you honestly think the Bengals would be a better team with Sewell over Chase? Do you think there's a change in Hell they would trade Chase for Sewell today???

In regards to Thomas, he didn't look good early in year 2 either, saying he did is revisionist history. Neal stays at RT for the near term, period. He his play doesn't improve after 8-10 games, than maybe a chance is in order.
RE: Ha Ha Tom  
JoeyBigBlue : 9/13/2023 3:03 pm : link
In comment 16204813 RollBlue said:
Quote:
the Bengals have not yet won a SB with Chase? Are you kidding me with that? Do you honestly think the Bengals would be a better team with Sewell over Chase? Do you think there's a change in Hell they would trade Chase for Sewell today???

In regards to Thomas, he didn't look good early in year 2 either, saying he did is revisionist history. Neal stays at RT for the near term, period. He his play doesn't improve after 8-10 games, than maybe a chance is in order.



Thomas allowed 2 sacks in 800 snaps in his second seasons according to PFF. He was an above average tackle in 2021. To say he didn’t look good, it very FALSE.
...  
ryanmkeane : 9/13/2023 3:51 pm : link
Bengals were a few plays away from winning a SB and made a run to get there last season as well. I think everyone can agree Chase was the correct pick.
...  
ryanmkeane : 9/13/2023 3:52 pm : link
Neal was not a reach. He was a consensus top 10 pick with zero character concerns. He hasn't lived up to his draft status yet. Not the first time a OT has struggled early.
RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
anon837 : 9/13/2023 4:33 pm : link
In comment 16204726 JoeSchoens11 said:
Quote:
In comment 16204656 anon837 said:


Quote:


In comment 16204332 Tom in NY said:


Quote:


In comment 16204320 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


The case for Garrett Wilson was that he's obviously a special type of player. Talent that only exists with maybe 3 or 4 other receivers in the league. It's like having Beckham in his prime without any of the baggage. The guy had 1,100 yards with Zach Wilson and Joe Flacco as his QB.

So, yeah, hindsight obviously. But yeah.



Taking a WR at the top of round 1 when the team needed to get the Oline and Defense in shape would not have been a good use of resources.

That's the issue right there. OT can be had in to day 3. OL is a unit, not just one player. One stud on the line doesn't elevate the rest of the squad. One dominant Edge/LB or DT can change the fortune of your QB rush. One WR1 can change the dynamic of your receiving room. And those guys are rare after the 1st, let alone the 2nd rd. You want the All-Pro OT, I get it. But they are not needed. You need a high-caliber, high-functioning OT that can gel with the rest of the line. And you can find more of those OTs than game-changing WR1 or nightmarish edge rushers. I hope Neal proves me massively wrong that he was desperation reach. Because if he succeeds, that's one less position the team has to worry about.

A great skill player can mask bad blocking to some degree, but a great oline opens up an offense for even sub-par players. A bad one sinks the entire offense.

Of course you can find any position in round 3 or later, it’s just highly unlikely that they are quality nfl-starter level. Hill, St. Brown, Kupp, Diggs, McLaurin are all exceptional wrs who were late picks. All things being equal, I’d rather gamble on wrs late, and work on the lines earlier in the draft.

There’s simply not enough depth in the league to survive missing on a lineman that you were expecting to start.
Absolutely you can find gems of receivers in the late rounds. But their vocation is different than a lineman. If you have one alpha dog that scares your opponent, it opens up the field for everyone else. Right now there are a bunch of JAGs in the WR room. Nothing but 3s and 4s, and maybe a 2 on a good day. That one dude tilts the field in your favor and takes the attention of the D. There were good tackles up in to Rd 3 that could have been had last year and the 7th pick could have been spent on WR or traded down for more picks or traded for NFL tested players. Yes you need to protect your QB and open lanes for the run. And yes you need quality guys on your line. But for OL, you don't need the top of the heap. You need quality guys that can play as one.
End of the year?  
ghost718 : 9/13/2023 4:42 pm : link
You must be a Tommy Devito fan
There  
AcidTest : 9/13/2023 4:45 pm : link
are very few college OTs whose feet are fast enough to play that position in the NFL. The game is so much faster in the NFL, especially edge rushers. Technique can be taught or refined. Fast feet and arm length cannot.
RE: Good grief  
bw in dc : 9/13/2023 4:46 pm : link
In comment 16204503 JonC said:
Quote:
Get the expectations in check, there's a long way to go for Neal, and the Giants.


We gave Daniel Jones four years. ;)
On the depth chart  
Joe Beckwith : 9/13/2023 5:42 pm : link
Neal has no official backup.
Anyone know who’s been the b-u for him?
RE: RE: Good grief  
Spiciest Memelord : 9/13/2023 6:17 pm : link
In comment 16205006 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 16204503 JonC said:


Quote:


Get the expectations in check, there's a long way to go for Neal, and the Giants.



We gave Daniel Jones four years. ;)


I wish Neal had a historic rookie season like Jones.
Anon  
JoeSchoens11 : 9/13/2023 6:20 pm : link
I get what you’re saying but it’s really hard to assume a 3rd round OT will ever be a starter whereas an underperforming 3rd round wr can be subbed in and put position to succeed and grow in his early years.

The Peart’s of the world (and hopefully not Ezudu) have no value to the team and can cripple an offense if they’re forced into action. Hyatt’s drop sucked and, in a more competitive game could’ve been costly, but he’s still useful even if he doesn’t end up being great.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
Spiciest Memelord : 9/13/2023 6:21 pm : link
In comment 16204977 anon837 said:
Quote:
In comment 16204726 JoeSchoens11 said:


Quote:


In comment 16204656 anon837 said:


Quote:


In comment 16204332 Tom in NY said:


Quote:


In comment 16204320 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


The case for Garrett Wilson was that he's obviously a special type of player. Talent that only exists with maybe 3 or 4 other receivers in the league. It's like having Beckham in his prime without any of the baggage. The guy had 1,100 yards with Zach Wilson and Joe Flacco as his QB.

So, yeah, hindsight obviously. But yeah.



Taking a WR at the top of round 1 when the team needed to get the Oline and Defense in shape would not have been a good use of resources.

That's the issue right there. OT can be had in to day 3. OL is a unit, not just one player. One stud on the line doesn't elevate the rest of the squad. One dominant Edge/LB or DT can change the fortune of your QB rush. One WR1 can change the dynamic of your receiving room. And those guys are rare after the 1st, let alone the 2nd rd. You want the All-Pro OT, I get it. But they are not needed. You need a high-caliber, high-functioning OT that can gel with the rest of the line. And you can find more of those OTs than game-changing WR1 or nightmarish edge rushers. I hope Neal proves me massively wrong that he was desperation reach. Because if he succeeds, that's one less position the team has to worry about.

A great skill player can mask bad blocking to some degree, but a great oline opens up an offense for even sub-par players. A bad one sinks the entire offense.

Of course you can find any position in round 3 or later, it’s just highly unlikely that they are quality nfl-starter level. Hill, St. Brown, Kupp, Diggs, McLaurin are all exceptional wrs who were late picks. All things being equal, I’d rather gamble on wrs late, and work on the lines earlier in the draft.

There’s simply not enough depth in the league to survive missing on a lineman that you were expecting to start.

Absolutely you can find gems of receivers in the late rounds. But their vocation is different than a lineman. If you have one alpha dog that scares your opponent, it opens up the field for everyone else. Right now there are a bunch of JAGs in the WR room. Nothing but 3s and 4s, and maybe a 2 on a good day. That one dude tilts the field in your favor and takes the attention of the D. There were good tackles up in to Rd 3 that could have been had last year and the 7th pick could have been spent on WR or traded down for more picks or traded for NFL tested players. Yes you need to protect your QB and open lanes for the run. And yes you need quality guys on your line. But for OL, you don't need the top of the heap. You need quality guys that can play as one.


In hindsight it looks terrible to pick Neal over Wilson, but in general its the right idea to take the trench guy. Just look at threads about available OLinemen, yeesh Peart is likely a hot commodity if we drop him.

You can find a kind of serviceable WR like Richie James or Hodgins in FA or PS.
This reminds me of a movie...  
DefenseWins : 9/13/2023 6:29 pm : link
trouble With The Curve.

They drafted a guy with their first pick and then later found out that he could not hit a basic curveball.

The owner was saying.. Jesus Christ nobody saw this?
RE: He's not a RT  
DefenseWins : 9/13/2023 6:32 pm : link
In comment 16204390 GiantGrit said:
Quote:
Some of his problems are confidence, some aren't.


His problem is that he lacks the mobility to play that position. He will never correct that... ever. If he does not have it now at his age, it will never come.

They have been working with him for two years on his footwork. He simply cannot get it. MAYBE he can play guard but the right tackle experiment is over.

The longer they continue to fool themselves that he is a right tackle, the longer this offense will struggle.

I would trade for a new right tackle, move Neal to right guard, then put Glowinski on the bench.
RE: RE: He's not a RT  
Spiciest Memelord : 9/13/2023 6:36 pm : link
In comment 16205110 DefenseWins said:
Quote:
In comment 16204390 GiantGrit said:


Quote:


Some of his problems are confidence, some aren't.



His problem is that he lacks the mobility to play that position. He will never correct that... ever. If he does not have it now at his age, it will never come.

They have been working with him for two years on his footwork. He simply cannot get it. MAYBE he can play guard but the right tackle experiment is over.

The longer they continue to fool themselves that he is a right tackle, the longer this offense will struggle.

I would trade for a new right tackle, move Neal to right guard, then put Glowinski on the bench.


One reason I could justify the Neal picks even with his known issue is assuming a TE would be lined up next to him most of the time, but that's likely not true in this offense. He's pretty much on an island.
RE: RE: RE: He's not a RT  
DefenseWins : 9/13/2023 7:38 pm : link
In comment 16205114 Spiciest Memelord said:
Quote:
In comment 16205110 DefenseWins said:


Quote:


In comment 16204390 GiantGrit said:


Quote:


Some of his problems are confidence, some aren't.



His problem is that he lacks the mobility to play that position. He will never correct that... ever. If he does not have it now at his age, it will never come.

They have been working with him for two years on his footwork. He simply cannot get it. MAYBE he can play guard but the right tackle experiment is over.

The longer they continue to fool themselves that he is a right tackle, the longer this offense will struggle.

I would trade for a new right tackle, move Neal to right guard, then put Glowinski on the bench.



One reason I could justify the Neal picks even with his known issue is assuming a TE would be lined up next to him most of the time, but that's likely not true in this offense. He's pretty much on an island.


I am sorry but if you are drafting a tackle in the top 10 of the draft thinking that you need a TE to help him... than you should not be drafting the guy that high
You guys can't be serious!  
Simms11 : 9/13/2023 9:05 pm : link
You're not moving him to Guard this year. First of all I'm not sure he even played the position in college. He would be absolutely clueless! Next year with an iff-seaskn to work at it, perhaps.
he did play guard in college  
bc4life : 9/13/2023 10:18 pm : link
see link
link - ( New Window )
Thibodeaux  
cosmicj : 9/13/2023 10:21 pm : link
I’m honestly baffled by what is going on with Thibs and BBI. I thought he had a very promising rookie campaign and expect him to become a franchise defensive player. After one disastrous game where the opponents barely passed, he is a bust?

People really need to get a grip.
RE: Thibodeaux  
ryanmkeane : 9/14/2023 8:54 am : link
In comment 16205254 cosmicj said:
Quote:
I’m honestly baffled by what is going on with Thibs and BBI. I thought he had a very promising rookie campaign and expect him to become a franchise defensive player. After one disastrous game where the opponents barely passed, he is a bust?

People really need to get a grip.

Also think it has to do with the fact that he barely played in preseason.
RE: RE: Thibodeaux  
nygiantfan : 9/14/2023 9:00 am : link
In comment 16205359 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
In comment 16205254 cosmicj said:


Quote:


I’m honestly baffled by what is going on with Thibs and BBI. I thought he had a very promising rookie campaign and expect him to become a franchise defensive player. After one disastrous game where the opponents barely passed, he is a bust?

People really need to get a grip.


Also think it has to do with the fact that he barely played in preseason.


And just maybe it has something to do with why Daboll called him out in some fashion in front of the team about a month or so ago.
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